10, 15 yrs ago this newsgroup was *much* larger. What happened?

[dkcombs]

Subject line says it all. Has emacs usage gone down?

(It's been that long since *I* last has newsgroup availability.)

Thanks for allowing this (stupid?) question!

David

[Dan Espen]

Good question.

This page:

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/2571/what-emacs-communities-exist

lists places to get emacs help.

This is 3rd place, after 2 wikis:

- help-gn...@gnu.org archive (also available via news:gnu.emacs.help and google groups)

I'm guessing the link from email to usenet is broken. I was able to
access the mailing list and the mailing list has activity.

--
Dan Espen

[Richard Smith]

> Subject line says it all. Has emacs usage gone down?

> ...

Maybe emacs is a big centre-of-gravity, but creates no noise?
Vast numbers of folk doing a lot of stuff, all contentedly getting on?
That emacs has been stable over decades and looks to stay that way
says it all?

I quietly spend most of my time on the computer in emacs, doing what I
do.

I am predominantly a scientist, metallurgist, welder and welding
engineer.

I used to bring in a cd with a dos-emacs on it, pass it to "IT" who
would scan it and declare they were fine with it, and I'd run that
emacs on my work computer. Managing huge amounts of information, use
the "abbrevs" to rapidly write big reports with all acronyms expanded
as were abbrevs for big abstruse technical names and terms, etc.
I'd text copy documents which came in as MSWord, do big amounts of
scientific/technical information, then format it back in MSWord when
content was all there.
Separate the information and its presentation... The typesetting
(eg. "LaTeX" philosophy). I'd "swing around" significant tasks knowing where
I was going with it, where others were driven insane trying to do it.

So yes, much work done quietly?

[dkcombs]

Thanks!

Now, any other idea *why* the newsgroup has become so small?

(Maybe us old-farts are dying off, and not being replaced? Or maybe
MS (or is it still M$?) convinced everyone to use them?)

What other editor even competes with emacs? ex/vi/vim I suppose;
anything else?

Emacs is easy, once your fingers memorize it!

FSF is still updating their two main emacs manuals (user-man
& elisp). (updating and printing)

[Anssi Saari]

dkc...@panix.com (dkcombs) writes:

> Thanks!
>
> Now, any other idea *why* the newsgroup has become so small?
>
> (Maybe us old-farts are dying off, and not being replaced?

I feel sometimes I'm an exception on Usenet, being under 70 years
old. So I'd assume people are dying off or leaving Usenet behind.
There are things like Reddit and Stack Overflow now that are popular and
where Emacs is actually a topic. I almost say discussed but those
platforms don't have much of it, being more Q&A type of things.

Also, newsgroups have generally become small. I don't think there are
newcomers other than the quintessential Google Groups users who mostly
make their precense known by responding to historical posts from decades
past.

> Or maybe MS (or is it still M$?) convinced everyone to use them?)

> What other editor even competes with emacs? ex/vi/vim I suppose;
> anything else?

Vim certainly but since you mentioned Microsoft, I understand their free
Visual Studio Code is a hugely popular editor.

[Matto Fransen]

Hi,

On 27 March 2023 10:13 Richard Smith, wrote:

>> Subject line says it all. Has emacs usage gone down?
>> ...
>
> Maybe emacs is a big centre-of-gravity, but creates no noise?
> Vast numbers of folk doing a lot of stuff, all contentedly getting on?
> That emacs has been stable over decades and looks to stay that way
> says it all?

A couple of weeks ago I posted a question regarding problems with
gnus-cloud. It got zero reactions.

Perhaps most people have left. Maybe to mailinglists or reddit ?

Best regards,

Matto

[dkcombs]

In article <sm08rfh...@lakka.kapsi.fi>, Anssi Saari <a...@sci.fi> wrote:
>dkc...@panix.com (dkcombs) writes:
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Now, any other idea *why* the newsgroup has become so small?
>>
>> (Maybe us old-farts are dying off, and not being replaced?
>
>I feel sometimes I'm an exception on Usenet, being under 70 years
>old. So I'd assume people are dying off or leaving Usenet behind.
>There are things like Reddit and Stack Overflow now that are popular and
>where Emacs is actually a topic. I almost say discussed but those
>platforms don't have much of it, being more Q&A type of things.

So, how to follow what's happening on Reddit or Stack Overflow (usenet
seems to me like the perfect tool for that kind of thing!). Please
tell me what to do, and I'll try it. (in some detail ... it's
old dogs (in my case) and new tricks! thanks!)

[USEnet]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 12:09:06 +0200, Matto Fransen <mat...@sdf.org> wrote:

> A couple of weeks ago I posted a question regarding problems with
> gnus-cloud. It got zero reactions.

I saw your question and didn't respond since I'm not using gnus-cloud.

As for the what happened part -- I've noticed that many of my questions
(yes, even after using Emacs for 45+ years I occasionally have questions)
can be answered with a little googling and the Emacs docs and Wiki. No need
to post questions here.

Which does, indeed, make it feel like abandoned...

-- Johan

[Matto Fransen]

Hi,

On 28 March 2023 15:20 dkcombs, wrote:

>
> So, how to follow what's happening on Reddit or Stack Overflow (usenet
> seems to me like the perfect tool for that kind of thing!). Please
> tell me what to do, and I'll try it. (in some detail ... it's
> old dogs (in my case) and new tricks! thanks!)
>

For this gwene.org (RSS-feeds, including some from Reddit) and
gmane.io (maillinglists) is handy :)

You follow these ase use-net servers in Gnus.

gwene.org turns RSS-feeds into news messages, for each RSS-feed
a different news group.

gmane.io turns mailinglists into news messages, for each mailinglist
a different news group.

You don't need an account, just add the following to your
.gnus.el:

(add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods '(nntp "news.gwene.org"))
(add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods '(nntp "news.gmane.io"))

Of course, this is for following only, if you want to post,
you'll have to login on Reddit cq subsribe to the specific mailinglist.

Best regards,

Matto

[Richard Smith]

It seems a pity, as NNTP news is the way to chat, and it's efficient
so archives. Idea that what people contribute is likely to be
valuable and adds to the knowledge and experience.

Problem is, when one of the new tools with "features" feels its time
is done and closes, all that knowledge which has gone there is done.

eg.
"ukwelder" closed its online forum and everyone who contributed that
experience and knowedge is gone.

[Szczezuja.space]

On 2023-03-26, dkcombs <dkc...@panix.com> wrote:
> Subject line says it all. Has emacs usage gone down?

I am rather new in the emacs world (less than a year) and I see several
people around me (especially on Gophersphere and Geminispace) where it's
discussed emacs. So probably new users aren't that rare. My observations
may of course be unrepresentative.

--
.-=-. Szczezuja; on the small-net:
( S\ \ gemini://szczezuja.space/ - gemlog & tinylog
`--' / gopher://sdf.org:70/0/users/szczezuja/ - phlog

[Axel Reichert]

dkc...@panix.com (dkcombs) writes:

> What other editor even competes with emacs? ex/vi/vim I suppose;
> anything else?

When a couple of years ago a new employee was struggling with a task I
had assigned to him, to my surprise the editor was the culprit: It
slowed down so much that efficiently editing a 300 MB file was not
possible. I recommended the "youngster" to use Emacs instead of his
current editor (gedit?). After finishing the tutorial he was hooked and
speedily completed the task. However, I felt a little bad about
"forcing" such arcane tools on a fresh colleague, so I investigated a
little using

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_text_editors

as a reference. To my surprise, with only a couple of crucial features,

- Open Source
- Available for Windows, macOS, and Linux
- Editing of large files (> 500 MB)
- Editing of rectangles/columns
- Allows for several instances of the editor running simultaneously
- Allows for opening the same file twice (viewing different parts)
- Allows for for multiple frames/windows in the same editor instance

only the emacs and vi "editor families" remained in the game. Most of
the other contestants failed miserably with large files, and there was
not even need to assess the features for using regexes both for the
search and replace patterns (which rules out many other candidates as
well).

So there I was, the "last men standing" both born in 1976 (depending on
what you count as the ancestor of the families), rendering my
recommendation to my "recruit" rather reasonable (I am fine with every
vi fan). I informed him about the "bad" news, "Sorry, no newer
alternatives", but he was happily editing away ever since.

I started with emacs in 1995, and one of the good things of using a tool
for so long is that it really pays off to increase your knowledge,
especially about a tool that is so powerful, extensible, and well
documented. This way, power really grows on you.

Best regards

Axel

[Anssi Saari]

dkc...@panix.com (dkcombs) writes:

> So, how to follow what's happening on Reddit or Stack Overflow (usenet
> seems to me like the perfect tool for that kind of thing!). Please
> tell me what to do, and I'll try it. (in some detail ... it's
> old dogs (in my case) and new tricks! thanks!)

If I knew a decent way to do that, I'd share. But those are just web
sites with usually no concept of read and unread messages or threads or
anything sensible like Usenet. Often the best interface to those is a
search engine like Google, for finding out.

I tried gwene.org access to emacs.stackexchange.com. So I have a foreign
group "nntp+news.gwene.org:gwene.com.stackexchange.emacs" in Gnus. I can
see the posts but they don't update if edited and answers are not
visible. So doesn't seem functional. I tried some reddit groups too but
the content there seemed to be from 2021.

[Cecil Westerhof]

"Szczezuja.space" <szcz...@sdf.org> writes:

> On 2023-03-26, dkcombs <dkc...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Subject line says it all. Has emacs usage gone down?
>
> I am rather new in the emacs world (less than a year) and I see several
> people around me (especially on Gophersphere and Geminispace) where it's
> discussed emacs. So probably new users aren't that rare. My observations
> may of course be unrepresentative.

New users probably do not know that there is something like
newsgroups. :'-(

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

[Richard Smith]

emacs enabled me to write-up patents at a patent and trade-mark
attorney's practice. They had a mark-up to cascade "claims" from the
most general to the most specific, from a starting paragraph, and I
could write them out in full. With a lot of copy-and-yank-then-edit.
Most were driven mad before they got anywhere near it, using a
"word-processor".

[Javier]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm guessing the link from email to usenet is broken. I was able to
> access the mailing list and the mailing list has activity.
>

I think the mailing list is still visible through NNTP, but only in
the news.gmane.org server, and that needs registering.

[Dan Espen]

Anyone have a recipe for GNUS to use a second news server to one group?

--
Dan Espen

[Dan Espen]

According to this 2020 thread
https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2020/01/06/whatever-happened-to-news-gmane-org/
it's now
news.gmane.io

I didn't see instructions for how to set up GNUS though.

--
Dan Espen

[Javier]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone have a recipe for GNUS to use a second news server to one group?

In gmane the group has a diiferent name:

gmane.emacs.help

I don't use gnus myself, but I guess you should start with something like

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
'(
; (nntp "news.mozilla.org") ;
(nntp "news.gmane.io")
)

Have a look at

M-: (describe-variable gnus-secondary-servers)
M-: (describe-variable gnus-secondary-select-methods)

I never tried to reply through gmane, but my guess is that NNTP is
only for reading the archive, and you cannot use NNTP followup and
have to resort to reply by email. Possibly modifying the headers is
needed (I never tried to reply through that interface myself).

[Dan Espen]

Thanks for that.

I've previously used secondary select for email so I guess I should have
been able to figure it out.

As you indicated, http://news.gmane.io says it's archive only.

If I can't post, I don't think I'll bother.
I did put your info into my gnus.el in case I change my mind.

Thanks again.


--
Dan Espen

[Javier]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As you indicated, http://news.gmane.io says it's archive only.
>
> If I can't post, I don't think I'll bother.
> I did put your info into my gnus.el in case I change my mind.

It's a bit unconvenient, but not that bad. The Followup to NNTP
is not going to work, but if you reply by email the generated subject
and references headers are valid. You just need to send by email
changing the 'To:' header

To: help-gn...@gnu.org

Possibly it can be automated for that particular gmane.emacs.help
newsgroup in some of the gnus-*-hook variables.

[Loris Bennett]

I have the following:

(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.fu-berlin.de"))
(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
(quote
((nnimap "main"
(nnir-search-engine imap)
(remove-prefix "nnimap")
(nnimap-address "mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de")
(nnimap-record-commands t)
(nnimap-inbox INBOX))
(nntp "gmane"
(nntp-address "news.gmane.io")
(remove-prefix nntp))
(nntp "fu_news"
(nntp-address "news.fu-berlin.de")
(remove-prefix nntp))
)))

Cheers,

Loris

--
This signature is currently under constuction.

[Dan Espen]

Well, that brings up another GNUS issue.
Ever since GMAIL changed their IMAP support to require authentication I
haven't been able to send email directly off my box.

--
Dan Espen

[Javier]

Change to a paying email server like protonmail.com. If you want a
free email provider, you still have gmx.com, that does not require
extra auth for SMTP nor IMAP (at least not for the moment).

gmx.com is ok for some random posts at mailing lists, but be careful
using it for important things. Many servers reject email from gmx.com
(sometimes silently). Most of the instances of failed emails from
gmx.com come from M$ servers (Exchange or Yahoo). The typical M$
sabotage to small companies. With google gmail, they don't dare to
mess.

In any case, Free as in beer, is never a good idea.

[HASM]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:

> Well, that brings up another GNUS issue.
> Ever since GMAIL changed their IMAP support to require authentication I
> haven't been able to send email directly off my box.

My incoming mail comes through google, outgoing email goes through some
other (paid) gateway.

I used to do in and out through google, but when they changed a few
conditions on the free legacy workspace accounts I had to switch.

I don't use gnus for email thus I'm not sure, I use mh-e which, in my
case, uses postfix to send email out. It was not too difficult to send
through google using OAUTH2.

Not that I have a @my_domain address on google, not sure whether @gmail
addresses are just as "easy".

-- HASM

[Ben Bacarisse]

Don't you use SMTP for sending?

--
Ben.

[Dan Espen]

I don't think SMTP is sufficient to send through Gmail. I'm not an
expert on email.

I used to use IMAP for inbound and outbound email with GNUS.
A while back Google changed their IMAP interface to require
some kind of authorization that I have yet to figure out.
It looked like you had to go to Google to register your email app,
then generate some kind of key which lasts for a while then
you have to change it.

--
Dan Espen

[Dan Espen]

HASM <ha...@example.invalid> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Well, that brings up another GNUS issue.
>> Ever since GMAIL changed their IMAP support to require authentication I
>> haven't been able to send email directly off my box.
>
> My incoming mail comes through google, outgoing email goes through some
> other (paid) gateway.
>
> I used to do in and out through google, but when they changed a few
> conditions on the free legacy workspace accounts I had to switch.
>
> I don't use gnus for email thus I'm not sure, I use mh-e which, in my
> case, uses postfix to send email out. It was not too difficult to send
> through google using OAUTH2.

I used MH-E for many years. I think it uses the same underlying
mechanisms for sending mail that GNUS uses.

I'm not sure what OAUTH2 is or if it's sufficient to work with gmail now.
I know that my IMAP configuration stopped working.

--
Dan Espen

[Ben Bacarisse]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <ben.u...@bsb.me.uk> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Javier <inv...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> As you indicated, http://news.gmane.io says it's archive only.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I can't post, I don't think I'll bother.
>>>>> I did put your info into my gnus.el in case I change my mind.
>>>>
>>>> It's a bit unconvenient, but not that bad. The Followup to NNTP
>>>> is not going to work, but if you reply by email the generated subject
>>>> and references headers are valid. You just need to send by email
>>>> changing the 'To:' header
>>>>
>>>> To: help-gn...@gnu.org
>>>>
>>>> Possibly it can be automated for that particular gmane.emacs.help
>>>> newsgroup in some of the gnus-*-hook variables.
>>>
>>> Well, that brings up another GNUS issue.
>>> Ever since GMAIL changed their IMAP support to require authentication I
>>> haven't been able to send email directly off my box.
>>
>> Don't you use SMTP for sending?
>
> I don't think SMTP is sufficient to send through Gmail. I'm not an
> expert on email.

That's how I do it.

> I used to use IMAP for inbound and outbound email with GNUS.
> A while back Google changed their IMAP interface to require
> some kind of authorization that I have yet to figure out.
> It looked like you had to go to Google to register your email app,
> then generate some kind of key which lasts for a while then
> you have to change it.

That will, most likely, also work.

--
Ben.

[HASM]

> I don't think SMTP is sufficient to send through Gmail. I'm not an
> expert on email.

To get email from gmail I use getmail
https://getmail6.org/
not that hard to setup.

To send email to gmail it's a lot more involved.
With postfix I a few entries are needed in main.cf.
Password needs to be entered in a postfix sasl password map.
The password map needs to be updated periodically, as the keys expired after some time (1 hour?).
I do this via cron and python Oauth2 based script.

-- HASM

[Ben Bacarisse]

HASM <ha...@example.invalid> writes:

>> I don't think SMTP is sufficient to send through Gmail. I'm not an
>> expert on email.
>
> To get email from gmail I use getmail
> https://getmail6.org/
> not that hard to setup.
>
> To send email to gmail it's a lot more involved.
> With postfix I a few entries are needed in main.cf.
> Password needs to be entered in a postfix sasl password map.

This is how I send mail. Postfix chooses the account based on the
address in the mail being sent. Since I use various email clients, this
simplifies them all. Everything is sent via a local "sendmail"
compatible MTA.

> The password map needs to be updated periodically, as the keys expired
> after some time (1 hour?). I do this via cron and python Oauth2 based
> script.

But I don't have to do this.

--
Ben.

[HASM]

ben> Postfix chooses the account based on the address in the mail being
ben> sent.

I do this too, but that's a different subject. For me postfix not only
chooses an account to send "from" but also the relay to use with "to".

>> The password map needs to be updated periodically, as the keys expire

> But I don't have to do this.

Guess I have to update my setup. As described, e.g. here:

https://mmogilvi.users.sourceforge.net/software/oauthbearer.html

it seems that both fetchmail and postfix can now renew the oauth2 token,
but this wasn't the case when I implemented my solution. At the time it
was only possible by patching fetchmail (and maybe postfix), which I
didn't want to do and maintain.

-- HASM

[Ben Bacarisse]

HASM <ha...@example.invalid> writes:

> ben> Postfix chooses the account based on the address in the mail being
> ben> sent.
>
> I do this too, but that's a different subject. For me postfix not only
> chooses an account to send "from" but also the relay to use with "to".

Of course. I'm not sure what you thought I meant. Once postfix has
the mail, it relays it based on the from header.

>>> The password map needs to be updated periodically, as the keys expire
>
>> But I don't have to do this.
>
> Guess I have to update my setup. As described, e.g. here:
>
> https://mmogilvi.users.sourceforge.net/software/oauthbearer.html

I don't do it that way. I went the route described as step 1 in that
document:

1. Configure your gmail (or equivalent) account to enable IMAP and/or
POP access. If it will let you set up an "application password"
instead of OAUTH2, that would generally be a whole lot simpler and
arguably just as secure.

but for SMTP sending.

Thanks for the link. One day I am sure I will be forced to do it the
hard way.

> it seems that both fetchmail and postfix can now renew the oauth2 token,
> but this wasn't the case when I implemented my solution. At the time it
> was only possible by patching fetchmail (and maybe postfix), which I
> didn't want to do and maintain.

When I did it, there was no oauth2 (as far as I can recall) and I've
used the same setup, unchanged, since then.

--
Ben.

[Dan Espen]

I don't see any "application password" option.


--
Dan Espen

[Dan Espen]

Thanks for this, this looks like what I've been looking for.

I have a python biff type app using imaplib that tells me I have mail
and who it's from.
I think those instructions may be clear enough for me to get that
working too.


--
Dan Espen

[HASM]

> I went the route described as step 1 in that document:
>

> 1. ... If it will let you set up an "application password" instead of OAUTH2

In Google's "Sign in with App Passwords" help page, they say:

Under "Signing in to Google," select App Passwords.
You may need to sign in.
If you don’t have this option, it might be because:
...
Your account is through work, school, or other organization.

and I fall under the "other organization", i.e. I don't have a
@gmail.com address, but a @mydomain.tl address, hosted on gmail.

> One day I am sure I will be forced to do it the hard way.

I was forced and it took me a while to do it back then. Hopefully
Google warned with sufficient advance for me to figure one way out.

-- HASM

[HASM]

dan> I don't see any "application password" option.

See my reply to Ben, and this Google page

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833?hl=en#zippy=

Under Create & Use App Passwords, point 3, there are four cases that
restrict the use App Passwords.

a. 2-Step Verification is not set up for your account.
b. 2-Step Verification is only set up for security keys.
c. Your account is through work, school, or other organization.
d. You turned on Advanced Protection.

If you are restricted by a, b or d cases, you may be able to change it,
if by the c case, you're out of luck.

-- HASM

[USEnet]

10, 15 yrs ago it was customary to change the article title when the topic
derailed...

[Ben Bacarisse]

HASM <ha...@example.invalid> writes:

>> I went the route described as step 1 in that document:
>>
>> 1. ... If it will let you set up an "application password" instead of OAUTH2
>
> In Google's "Sign in with App Passwords" help page, they say:
>
> Under "Signing in to Google," select App Passwords.
> You may need to sign in.
> If you don’t have this option, it might be because:
> ...
> Your account is through work, school, or other organization.
>
> and I fall under the "other organization", i.e. I don't have a
> @gmail.com address, but a @mydomain.tl address, hosted on gmail.

Ah, I see.

--
Ben.

[Javier]

Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't see any "application password" option.

You need to go to https://myaccount.google.com

Enable 2 step verification in

https://myaccount.google.com/security?gar=1

and app passwords should appear at the bottom of this page.

https://myaccount.google.com/signinoptions/two-step-verification?gar=1

In any case, Google doesn't like app-passwords, and they might disable
them in favor of Oauth. In my experienced bothering with Oauth2 is
too much hassle. At that point the best is to leave google completely
and go to something like protonmail.

Choosing "free as in beer" is never a good idea.