hand injuries from EMACS
Jym Dyer
up to the summary.
> 10) Use a trackball in preference to a mouse.
=o= Absolutely. I've been using Emacs heavily for 13 years
now, and I've never had a problem with hand/wrist injury until
I hade to start using a mouse. I now use Emacs for so many
things specifically to avoid the mouse.
=o= The "sticky keys" idea somehow didn't make it into the
summary. Note that in most cases you can use an ESCAPE key
to act as a sticky META. If anyone has hints on implementing
a sticky CONTROL key, please pass them along.
=o= The "browse mode" idea also didn't make it into the
summary (though I'd call it "view mode," myself). I think
Emacs' "view mode" is implemented a little overbearingly,
but that's easily fixed. Hook it up to the reading of any
readonly buffer and you've made paging through a lot simpler.
<_Jym_>
david carlton
> 4) "See if you can re-map the keys to ones that use less reach "
> and "stop using any key combinations that hurt your hands."
> Dvorak was recommended. (3x)
I use a dvorak keyboard layout, and I think it's great - it speeds up
my typing a lot, and makes my hands feel somewhat more relaxed. It
doesn't work all that well with the standard Emacs key mappings,
though - in particular, C-x is as big a stretch as is possible. (It's
like C-b on a qwerty keyboard.) So if you do switch to dvorak, you'll
have to remap even more commands to make them comfortable.
david carlton
car...@husc.harvard.edu
Is a tattoo real, like a curb or a battleship? Or are we
suffering in Safeway?
Don Hopkins
From: Jym Dyer <j...@mica.berkeley.edu>
=o= I got into this thread too late to catch the stuff leading
up to the summary.
Me too. Hi Jym, this isn't in response to anything you've said, just
what you're replying to...
> 10) Use a trackball in preference to a mouse.
Use a trackball _IN_ _ADDITION_ to a mouse. You can use the
trackball to scroll with one hand, and use the mouse at the
same time. Bill Buxton and his students have done some research in
this area, and they have an INIT for the Mac that allows you to do
just that. It's very natural and easy to use a mouse and a trackball
at the same time (just like you use both hands when driving a car),
and it makes mechanisms like "autoscroll" unnecessary -- you can start
dragging out a text selection with the mouse, then spin the trackball
to scroll while you're selecting, taking advantage of its inertia, and
then use the mouse to exactly position the end of the selection. Mice
and track balls are very different input devices, and are not simply
interchangeable. They're appropriate for different tasks. It's
more difficult to point accurately with a track ball than with a
mouse, and harder to move a trackball while holding down a button (so
some provide a "button lock" mechanism, although I've never seen a
three button trackball!). Pens are better at fine positioning than
either -- just try to sign your name with a track ball! But mice
don't have inertia like track balls, you can't spin them, and they
don't keep moving without limit, you have to pick them up off the pad
and reposition them when you reach the edge. But why throw away your
mouse when you add a trackball (unless your window system is too lame
to support more than one input device at a time)? It's like throwing
away your keyboard when you add voice recognition: "Hey Emacs, meta
less than, control x open paren, control a, meta f, control f, control
w, control e, tab, control y, delete, control n, control x close
paren, control u, control u, control u, control u, control x e!"
Talk about Carpal Lip Syndrome!
-Don
Cliff Lasser
>
>I use a dvorak keyboard layout, and I think it's great - it speeds up
>my typing a lot, and makes my hands feel somewhat more relaxed. It
>doesn't work all that well with the standard Emacs key mappings,
>though - in particular, C-x is as big a stretch as is possible. (It's
>like C-b on a qwerty keyboard.) So if you do switch to dvorak, you'll
>have to remap even more commands to make them comfortable.
When I first started having hand problems, I switched over to the dvorak
layout too and it helped. As you mention, though, the standard Emacs
keymappings are bad news for bad hands. I started implementing a special
"navigating" mode that would cause all the standard movement operations to
be mapped to keys on the home row. Then the idea was make switching into
and out of this mode as painless as possible. I never finished the hack
because I got a DataHand keyboard and that solved my problem.
Michael Bryan
>
>It's more difficult to point accurately with a track ball than with a
>mouse, and harder to move a trackball while holding down a button (so
>some provide a "button lock" mechanism, although I've never seen a
>three button trackball!).
The Logitech TrackMan is a 3-button trackball, with contouring to fit
the form of your hand. (Although I'm sure the contouring isn't that
great for people who's hands are smaller or larger than a certain
range of sizes.) The problem, of course, is getting this trackball to
connect to something other than a PC. I believe HP makes a box for
it's workstations which allows you to connect Logitech-type devices,
and make them look like HP-HIL devices, although I'm not certain about
this. (Once things settle down at work, I intend to look into this
and other trackball alternatives.) There might be other 3-button
trackballs, as well, but I haven't looked for any yet.
As you indicate, click-drag-drop operations are difficult with a
trackball, but with a locking button, it's fairly easy. Also, at
least with the TrackMan, I have no problem positioning accurately.
The ball is controlled by thumb motions, and I can make motions
as accurately as I can with any mouse. As you mention. So for
me, anyway, the trackball is just as good as the mouse in *all*
respects, and I'd gladly get rid of the mouse completely.
>[voiced emacs commands omitted]
>Talk about Carpal Lip Syndrome!
The mind boggles! I've heard of problems with foot-in-mouth
syndrome, but hand-in-moutn syndrome? :-)
--
Michael Bryan mic...@resonex.com (510)249-9600 x325
Resonex, Inc. ____ ____
47911 Westinghouse Dr. \ / \ /
Fremont, CA 94539 \/ Hate is not a family value. \/
Ted Stockwell
Its not as bad as all that. I use the DragonDictate speech
recognition system with emacs for all my news, mail, programming,
text. The auto indent features of C and C++ edit modes help a lot
with the tedious formatting of programs. Words can be arbitrarily
mapped to the key strokes that DragonDictate emits. To go to a
particular line I just say "goto-line" which maps to "meta-x
goto-line". Similarly for page-up or set-mark. Its slower than
typing, but much less painful.
--
"It's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole." -- Laurie Anderson
Ted Stockwell t...@cs.umn.edu
Richard Stallman
please do not recomend it on GNU mailing lists unless
the software is free.
Barry A. Warsaw
>>>>> "Don" == Don Hopkins <hop...@cs.cmu.edu> writes:
Don> and harder to move a trackball while holding down a button
Don> (so some provide a "button lock" mechanism, although I've
Don> never seen a three button trackball!).
My Diamond XX trackball from Evergreen Systems is a 4 button trackball
for Sparcs. The fourth button (configurable to either the leftmost or
rightmost button) is a button-lock. I haven't missed my mouse since
getting this thing.
Alex Martelli
...
:layout too and it helped. As you mention, though, the standard Emacs
:keymappings are bad news for bad hands. I started implementing a special
:"navigating" mode that would cause all the standard movement operations to
:be mapped to keys on the home row. Then the idea was make switching into
Any similarity between this concept and vi's normal modal interface is,
of course, totally accidental...?-)
Alex
--
Email: mart...@cadlab.sublink.org Phone: ++39 (51) 6130360
CAD.LAB s.p.a., v. Ronzani 7/29, Casalecchio, Italia Fax: ++39 (51) 6130294
Christian Lynbech
>i wish this weren't your policy, because i can't imagine that you
>really intend to be so strict about something that is so useful to
>humanity. i don't know of any copylefted speech software, and people
>with cts (possibly including you? do you hack, use a secretary, or
>use a speech machine?) can greatly benefit from what IS available,
>whether it's copyrighted, pd, shareware, or copylefted. in fact, it
>lets them hack if they can't afford or don't want a secretary.
>the software that controls an mri machine is probably proprietary too,
>but it saves lives. until there's a gnu version, isn't it ok to talk
>about the software if it interfaces with other gnu software? think of
>it like a psa, if you like: you _could_ make some political capital
>out of it, but you forgo that in favor of benefit to subscribers.
If I understand the system correctly, nothing is preventing you to
talk about proprietary software (or indeed anything else), but you
should not use the gnu mailing lists for that. Please respect the
political viewpoint the GNU folks carry. This really is their
list/newgroup and should, in my oppinion, be reserved for discussing
the *relevant* issues. Relevant is how to extend your emacs with
better macros for instance. Irrelevant is how to benefit from
proprietary speech systems.
You'll getter better service and more information if you use the right
newsgroup. So if you want to discuss GNU attitudes on say speech systems,
use gnu.misc.discuss. If you want to discuss hand injuries, you really
should check out sci.med.occupational (got a great FAQ on the
subject). If you want a more humouristic approach and perhaps burn off
a few die-hard vi hackers, check out alt.religion.emacs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the
office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual.
email: lyn...@daimi.aau.dk | - pet...@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Dwork
>mouse, and harder to move a trackball while holding down a button (so
>some provide a "button lock" mechanism, although I've never seen a
>three button trackball!). Pens are better at fine positioning than
I have a three button trackball ("Mouse-Trak" brand) from ITAC Systems
in Garland, Tx. It's on an HP400 (Apollo). They also make them for
HP-PA, Sun, and PC's.
I don't miss the mouse at all, especially with a limited area next to
the keyboard tray.
Jeff
--
Jeff Dwork | 408-987-2362 | jeff....@amd.com
Advanced Micro Devices, M/S 45 |---------------------------------------
PO Box 3453 | The above opionions are mine,
Sunnyvale, Ca 94088 | not AMD's.
Sven M Heinicke
From: mart...@cadlab.sublink.org (Alex Martelli)
> c...@think.com (Cliff Lasser) writes:
> ...
> :layout too and it helped. As you mention, though, the standard Emacs
> :keymappings are bad news for bad hands. I started implementing a special
>
> of course, totally accidental...?-)
what about good hands? i hear rms has problems with his hands.
--
Sven Heinicke <sv...@cs.widener.edu>
``ASCII and ye shall receive.'' --Jeffery Armstrong
Bob Sutterfield
working on a design for a foot pedal interface. Why not get a set of
foot-operated switches from a Dictaphone(tm) to handle Ctrl, Meta, and
Shift, then wire them in parallel with the existing key switches?
Modern workstation keyboards have more complex innards than an ADM-3
or my old Heath-19, but maybe the idea still holds merit. These days,
you could add three more pedal switches for the mouse buttons, and do
some fancy footwork like heel-toe clutch/braking in a sports car.
My mom (church organist) said she would teach me how to work the
pedals in time with my typing :-)
--
Bob Sutterfield, Morning Star Technologies +1 614 451 1883
1760 Zollinger Rd, Columbus Ohio USA, 43221 +1 800 558 7827
b...@MorningStar.Com +1 614 459 5054 (FAX)
Steve Pearlmutter
> NNTP-Posting-Host: nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu
> I once heard a story that some company was going to make a giant mouse that
> you move on the floor with your feet, with appropriately sized pedals.
> They were going to market it as the "rat". :-)
Great, I can just see it now:
How'd you sprain your ankle?
Oh, well, you see, I was, um, you know, working at my computer...
It's not really sprained, I just injured my achilles moving the
cursor.
--
Steve Pearlmutter | Nothing I say in any way
ste...@twisto.compaq.com | represents the opinions of
Compaq Computer Corporation, Houston, TX | my employers. Really.
"Good taste is timeless... and a good time is usually tasteless."
Dana
thumb movements which (to my hand) feel they originate from the base joint of the thumb (as opposed
to flexing the thumb, which is more what tapping the space bar feels like to this touch typist on
a qwerty keyboard).
--
Dana Hudes
da...@inferno.UUCP
Noah Friedman
J Lee Jaap
I have a three button trackball ("Mouse-Trak" brand) from ITAC Systems
in Garland, Tx. It's on an HP400 (Apollo). They also make them for
HP-PA, Sun, and PC's.
And DEC's systems (DECstation and VAXstation). Their phone is
+1 214 494 3073. $200 when I ordered.
I don't miss the mouse at all, especially with a limited area next to
the keyboard tray.
I agree heartily. The paper monster grows....
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L....@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Max Diseased Laughter Potions Rible
Actually, putting a lapdesk on the floor, moving your mouse down there
(as long as it's only one or two button) and setting the tracking to
a minimum works pretty well. I was doing serious work on Ventura
Publisher half a decade ago, typing and using meta keys with my
fingers, while moving a microsoft mouse around with my right foot,
left-clicking with the big toe and right-clicking with the rest.
I'm not sure what I'd do with a three-button or optical mouse, or
if there were a dress code that frowned upon wearing Birkenstocks
to the office. I also wouldn't recommend this sort of activity if
you aren't in the habit of using your feet to change the settings on
the flow regulators in your bathtub (I've been doing too much engineering,
I can't remember the common name for the damn things)...
--
/-----------------------v---------------------------------------\
| Max Rible | "Powerful big rats, gentlemen." |
| ri...@vorpal.ucsb.edu | - Neil Gaiman |
\-----------------------^---------------------------------------/
Art Goldberg
|> what about good hands? i hear rms has problems with his hands.
i heard that rms cannot type. he dictates to live typists. they're FSF
volunteers.
--
Arthur P. Goldberg
H1-A11, Box 218, IBM Research Center, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
voice: 914 784-7608 FAX: 914 784-6307
email: ar...@watson.ibm.com
Steven Bellovin
>
> The Logitech TrackMan is a 3-button trackball, with contouring to fit
> the form of your hand. (Although I'm sure the contouring isn't that
> great for people who's hands are smaller or larger than a certain
> range of sizes.) The problem, of course, is getting this trackball to
> connect to something other than a PC.
I have a Logitech trackball that works with my SPARCstation. But I
don't like it at all. The contouring looks good -- but in practice,
I found it hard to use. ITAC's Mouse-Trak is much better, in my
opinion, even though at first glance it looks awkward.
Don Hopkins
(Sung to the tune of "Rubber Duckie")
Double bucky, you're the one!
You make my keyboard lots of fun
Double bucky, an additional bit or two:
(Vo-vo-de-o!)
Control and Meta side by side,
Augmented ASCII, nine bits wide!
Double bucky, a half a thousand glyphs,
plus a few!
Oh,
I sure wish that I
Had a couple of
bits more!
Perhaps a
Set of pedals to
Make the number of
Bits four:
Double double bucky!
Double bucky, left and right
OR'd together, outta sight!
Double bucky, I'd like a whole word of
Double bucky, I'm happy I heard of
Double bucky, I'd like a whole
word of you!
(C) 1978 by Guy L. Steele, Jr.
(For those of you who are interested, the term "bucky bits"
comes from Niklaus Wirth, known as "bucky" to friends, who
suggested that an extra bit be added to terminal codes on 36
bit machines for use by screen editors.)
Don Hopkins
Glenn Pierson at the University of Maryland made a foot-mouse called
the "mole"! I'm just waiting for the bipedal force feedback mole.
-Don
Holly McGrath
>summary. Note that in most cases you can use an ESCAPE key
>to act as a sticky META. If anyone has hints on implementing
>a sticky CONTROL key, please pass them along.
Well, I started thinking about this, and realized you could map
ESC-ESC to be a "sticky" control key. It has a default use which I
wasn't much interested in, and it's disabled by default anyway, but I
suppose you could always put (global-unset-key "\e\e") in your .emacs
file in case it wasn't. I used the following key bindings:
(defvar ee-map (make-sparse-keymap) "Keymap for ESC-ESC")
(define-key esc-map "\e" ee-map)
(define-key ee-map "f" 'find-file)
(define-key ee-map "1" 'delete-other-windows)
(define-key ee-map "2" 'split-window-vertically)
(define-key ee-map "b" 'switch-to-buffer)
(define-key ee-map "s" 'save-buffer)
(define-key ee-map "k" 'kill-buffer)
(define-key ee-map "l" 'recenter)
(define-key ee-map "u" 'universal-argument)
That's all I needed, because I had already set up the arrow and
function keys. Of course, I hadn't been using them - I'd been using
the control and meta keys for everything, and my left pinkie finger
was actually getting swollen and sore from using it so much. It feels
better already...
Andrew E. Kellman
>Back when I used Emacs most frequently on a simple terminal, I was
>working on a design for a foot pedal interface. Why not get a set of
>foot-operated switches from a Dictaphone(tm) to handle Ctrl, Meta, and
>Shift, then wire them in parallel with the existing key switches?
>
>My mom (church organist) said she would teach me how to work the
>pedals in time with my typing :-)
Instead of a Dictaphone pedal -- and thanks for being the first to
spell it correctly: pedal, not petal -- how about one of those
multi-button electric guitar pedals??
Just a thought.
-=Andrew
< Andrew E. Kellman | "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; >
< ake...@wilkes1.wilkes.edu | Cry, and your face gets wet. " >
< and...@dorothy.ibmpcug.co.uk | >
< Amateur callsign : KA3ZXE | -=Anonymous >
--
< Andrew E. Kellman | "Laugh, and the world laughs with you; >
< ake...@wilkes1.wilkes.edu | Cry, and your face gets wet. " >
< and...@dorothy.ibmpcug.co.uk | >
< Amateur callsign : KA3ZXE | -=Anonymous >
Karl Fogel
> In article <1993Jan27....@smos.com>, da...@smos.com (David Tornheim) writes:
>
> > 4) "See if you can re-map the keys to ones that use less reach "
> > and "stop using any key combinations that hurt your hands."
> > Dvorak was recommended. (3x)
>
> I use a dvorak keyboard layout, and I think it's great - it speeds up
> my typing a lot, and makes my hands feel somewhat more relaxed. It
> doesn't work all that well with the standard Emacs key mappings,
> though - in particular, C-x is as big a stretch as is possible. (It's
> like C-b on a qwerty keyboard.) So if you do switch to dvorak, you'll
> have to remap even more commands to make them comfortable.
>
> david carlton
> car...@husc.harvard.edu
Hi Dave :-) I use a Maltron keyboard, which is even better
than Dvorak layout, because Dvorak still happens on a flat keyboard.
The Maltron is actually curved to fit the hands (your fingers do not
lie flat naturally), and it has a much improved letter layout too.
Here is a little text file I keep around, describing the pleasures of
a real keyboard :-) It amazes me how much time and money we all spend
on faster machines, more memory, bigger drives, etc, without any
attention to an element of the computer that affects productivity and
comfort in virtually all applications: the keyboard. Anyway, please
feel free to write me for more info, anyone... Maltron has been
swamped with orders lately, they tell me, but I am always happy to
send customers their way!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay. Here is a little description of the keyboard situation
in the world today and the alternatives:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Maltron is a keyboard designed from the ground up, so as
to avoid the problems of standard keyboards. Those problems are
twofold: first of all, Ian Shoales, the inventor of the typewriter,
had to make a letter arrangement that would slow down typists *on*
*purpose*, so that the mechanical levers of the typerwriter wouldn't
jam. They still jammed if a typist got too good at the "bad"
arrangement, but not as much as they would if the keys were arranged
in an efficient fashion. Needless to say, now that keyboards do not
depend on levers, there is no point to this, but his arrangement has
persisted. This problem has been partly alleviated by the Dvorak
arrangement, although I hear it has problems too.
The other problem goes deeper, and also has its origin in
early mechanical typewriters. Keyboards are flat. This was necessary
on mechanical keyboards, but is just positively criminal now that we
have electronic keyboards (okay, perhaps I do lay it on a bit thick).
Human hands do not fall flat when relaxed! Why has it persisted? I
can't figure it out. Anyway, the maltron keyboard is curved to fit the
contours of the hands (two concave dishes laying into the keyboard,
with keypads for the thumbs and palm rests. The left thumb has "e" and
a few other things, and the right thumb has enter and space and other
stuff -- nice innovations). It can operate in QWERTY mode if you want,
but I recommend their arrangement highly. They actually analyzed lots
of text with a computer, or so I heard, and came up with a truly
efficient arrangement that avoids "single-finger hurdles", and gives
you unshifted "?", "!", and "*", among other things. I can touch type
for paragraphs without errors (in both text and programming jobs) --
which means I don't have to look at the screen either, and half the
time I don't, which is *really* nice. I know that I type faster than
my father does on QWERTY from watching him type (he is an 80 wpm
typist), although I am not sure of my exact speed.
The drawback of the Maltron is that because they don't sell
enough to mass-produce (my serial number is, get this, 948!), it's way
too expensive. Mine cost me $700 (it's a british company, it was 295
pounds, I think). Sigh. I could have had a 486 and a flat keyboard...
If you are still interested, or would be at a lower price, write back to
me. I'm thinking of compiling a list of people and the maximum prices they
would pay for one, and giving the list to the company when the list is
long enough. Maybe they can give lower prices on mass orders (?).
Do you want their address?
--
Karl Fogel ("Leg of Lark") <> Any opinions disclaimed
kfo...@cs.oberlin.edu <> are entirely my own.
fo...@antares.mcs.anl.gov <>
<> Linux, the copylefted Unix for the 386/486 PC!!! <> Ask me more!!! <>
<> Linux FAQ: tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux or sunsite.unc.edu:/pub/Linux <>
Washington Taylor
> In article <C1p6LG...@cs.cmu.edu> hop...@cs.cmu.edu (Don Hopkins) writes:
> > In article <Jym.28Jan1993.1601@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer <j...@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
> > to support more than one input device at a time)? It's like throwing
> > away your keyboard when you add voice recognition: "Hey Emacs, meta
> > Talk about Carpal Lip Syndrome!
> >
> > -Don
>
> Its not as bad as all that. I use the DragonDictate speech
> The auto indent features of C and C++ edit modes help a lot
> with the tedious formatting of programs. Words can be arbitrarily
> mapped to the key strokes that DragonDictate emits. To go to a
> particular line I just say "goto-line" which maps to "meta-x
> Ted Stockwell t...@cs.umn.edu
In fact, I have found that since I began using Dragon Dictate several
months ago, the range of emacs functionality which I use has
dramatically increased. I have defined several hundred command-words
which map to various keystroke sequences, and find that it is much
easier to remember and speak a mnemonic voice command than to remember
a complicated keystroke sequence, particularly when you have 50 or 60
user-defined elisp macros. After four months or so, I believe that
with Dragon dictate I am actually faster at certain things (like
writing and editing TeX in emacs) than I ever was typing.
If I were not still recovering from RSI, I might even consider using
voice commands for everything except typing straight text.
-Wati-
Richard Stallman
If I were the only person in the world, and I could get such
a program by paying money, I would do so eagerly.
But I know I am not the only person in the world, and that others
also need such a program.
So I recognize that the only acceptable solution is a program that
everyone can use. A program that is free software. I would not
consider getting such a program for myself if that required
withholding it from all of you.
Please don't use GNU newsgroups to recommend proprietary software,
regardless of what it is for. In particular, don't send messages to
this list/group praising proprietary speech programs. It's bad enough
that some people do use them; please avoid encouraging more to do so.
Robert H Brueckner
In article <BOB.93Fe...@volitans.MorningStar.Com> b...@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) writes:
>Back when I used Emacs most frequently on a simple terminal, I was
>working on a design for a foot pedal interface. Why not get a set of
>foot-operated switches from a Dictaphone(tm) to handle Ctrl, Meta, and
>Shift, then wire them in parallel with the existing key switches?
[lines deleted]
>
>My mom (church organist) said she would teach me how to work the
>pedals in time with my typing :-)
Instead of a Dictaphone pedal -- and thanks for being the first to
spell it correctly: pedal, not petal -- how about one of those
multi-button electric guitar pedals??
Actually, the Dictaphone pedal would be serviceable, because it does
have three switches (play, fast forward, rewind). I think it would be
preferable to the guitar multi-button switches because they usually
are click-on, click-off, as opposed to hold-on, release for off (the
difference between a light switch and a keyboard key).
RB
--
|"The truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who |
| have loved it." -- George Santayana // Opinions expressed here, when |
| clear and persuasive, are my own. --Rob Brueckner (r...@world.std.com) |