bug#43148: 27.1; Widget text seems to disappear when building with Cairo and Xaw

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Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 1, 2020, 10:10:05 AM9/1/20
to Pouar Dragon, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Pouar Dragon <po...@pouar.net>
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:34:46 -0500
>
> widgets when building with Xaw and Cairo seem to have missing text,
> looking like this
>
> problem seems to go away when 5f4e8e2e088de9fb76cb631077c6eddd3219f594
> is reverted

Thanks. I hope Yamamoto-san will be able to take a look at this.



Robert Pluim

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Sep 1, 2020, 11:07:08 AM9/1/20
to Eli Zaretskii, Pouar Dragon, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:09:18 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> said:

>> From: Pouar Dragon <po...@pouar.net>
>> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:34:46 -0500
>>
>> widgets when building with Xaw and Cairo seem to have missing text,
>> looking like this
>>
>> problem seems to go away when 5f4e8e2e088de9fb76cb631077c6eddd3219f594
>> is reverted

Eli> Thanks. I hope Yamamoto-san will be able to take a look at this.

Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
(Iʼm surprised it even builds).

Robert



Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 1, 2020, 11:53:04 AM9/1/20
to Robert Pluim, po...@pouar.net, mitu...@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Pouar Dragon <po...@pouar.net>, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
> <mitu...@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp>, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:05:55 +0200
I wasn't aware that it's a rare configuration. We definitely support
Lucid, right? If so, is Xaw the problem? and if it is, what are the
alternatives that are less "non-mainstream"?



Robert Pluim

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Sep 1, 2020, 12:14:05 PM9/1/20
to Eli Zaretskii, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 18:51:47 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> said:

>> From: Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Pouar Dragon <po...@pouar.net>, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
>> <mitu...@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp>, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:05:55 +0200
>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:09:18 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> said:
>>
>> >> From: Pouar Dragon <po...@pouar.net>
>> >> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:34:46 -0500
>> >>
>> >> widgets when building with Xaw and Cairo seem to have missing text,
>> >> looking like this
>> >>
>> >> problem seems to go away when 5f4e8e2e088de9fb76cb631077c6eddd3219f594
>> >> is reverted
>>
Eli> Thanks. I hope Yamamoto-san will be able to take a look at this.
>>
>> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
>> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
>> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).

Eli> I wasn't aware that it's a rare configuration. We definitely support
Eli> Lucid, right? If so, is Xaw the problem? and if it is, what are the
Eli> alternatives that are less "non-mainstream"?

Lucid + Xaw is common enough, itʼs mixing in Cairo thatʼs uncommon. To
me, Cairo pretty much implies GTK.

Robert



Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 1, 2020, 12:50:05 PM9/1/20
to Robert Pluim, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com>
> Cc: po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 18:13:10 +0200
>
> >> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
> >> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
> >> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).
>
> Eli> I wasn't aware that it's a rare configuration. We definitely support
> Eli> Lucid, right? If so, is Xaw the problem? and if it is, what are the
> Eli> alternatives that are less "non-mainstream"?
>
> Lucid + Xaw is common enough, itʼs mixing in Cairo thatʼs uncommon. To
> me, Cairo pretty much implies GTK.

Surely, given our troubled experiences with GTK, we don't want to have
it as a single toolkit supported in the Cairo build?



YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu

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Sep 1, 2020, 10:16:05 PM9/1/20
to Pouar Dragon, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 11:34:46 +0900,
Pouar Dragon wrote:
>
>
> widgets when building with Xaw and Cairo seem to have missing text,
> looking like this
>

Does it also happen with the following invocations?

$ emacs -Q &
$ emacs -xrm 'Emacs.pane.menubar.font: Courier-12' &

YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
mitu...@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp



Robert Pluim

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Sep 2, 2020, 3:01:06 AM9/2/20
to Eli Zaretskii, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Tue, 01 Sep 2020 19:48:41 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> said:

>> From: Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com>
>> Cc: po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 18:13:10 +0200
>>
>> >> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
>> >> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
>> >> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).
>>
Eli> I wasn't aware that it's a rare configuration. We definitely support
Eli> Lucid, right? If so, is Xaw the problem? and if it is, what are the
Eli> alternatives that are less "non-mainstream"?
>>
>> Lucid + Xaw is common enough, itʼs mixing in Cairo thatʼs uncommon. To
>> me, Cairo pretty much implies GTK.

Eli> Surely, given our troubled experiences with GTK, we don't want to have
Eli> it as a single toolkit supported in the Cairo build?

I can understand that, but nobody is stepping up to e.g. make Lucid
work well on HiDPI screens, so it will become increasingly
irrelevant. Plus I donʼt see any prospect of Qt being added as a
toolkit under GNU/Linux, so GTK appears to be the only thing we've
got.

Robert



James Cloos

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Sep 2, 2020, 6:25:11 AM9/2/20
to Robert Pluim, Eli Zaretskii, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com> writes:

RP> I can understand that, but nobody is stepping up to e.g. make Lucid
RP> work well on HiDPI screens, so it will become increasingly
RP> irrelevant.

why?

for emacs, higher dpi mostly just means larger fonts.

if images ever need scaling, that should not be hard to do in emacs
itself.

gtk is horrid. (1 was ok; it only went downhill when novel got
involved, and that trend has continued.)

and the push for hb+cxr over m17n+xft means xaw(3d) w/ cairo should
become more and more common.

(i don't use menus, but a quick test of yesyerday's master with -Q has
working menus.)
(gentoo with USE='X Xaw3d cairo harfbuzz' plus some others.)

-JimC
--
James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6



Robert Pluim

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Sep 2, 2020, 6:46:06 AM9/2/20
to James Cloos, Eli Zaretskii, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 06:24:12 -0400, James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com> said:

>>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com> writes:
RP> I can understand that, but nobody is stepping up to e.g. make Lucid
RP> work well on HiDPI screens, so it will become increasingly
RP> irrelevant.

James> why?

James> for emacs, higher dpi mostly just means larger fonts.

No it means "why canʼt I read the text in Emacs on my new HiDPI
monitor, everything else adapts automatically. What do you mean I have
to reconfigure Emacs to use larger fonts?"

James> if images ever need scaling, that should not be hard to do in emacs
James> itself.

James> gtk is horrid. (1 was ok; it only went downhill when novel got
James> involved, and that trend has continued.)

What alternative is there?

James> and the push for hb+cxr over m17n+xft means xaw(3d) w/ cairo should
James> become more and more common.

Iʼm not sure I see the connection there.

Robert



Peder O. Klingenberg

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Sep 2, 2020, 7:39:05 AM9/2/20
to 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
On ti., 2020-09-01 kl. 17.05 +0200 +0200, Robert Pluim wrote:

> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).

I'm running configure on master like this:

./configure --with-x-toolkit=lucid --prefix=/not/relevant

and that gives me

What toolkit should Emacs use? LUCID
Does Emacs use -lXaw3d? yes
Does Emacs use cairo? yes

So Cairo seems to be default (and thus probably most common) when
configuring to build with Lucid?

(GTK simply doesn't work for me because I depend on daemon mode and Emacs not
crashing when a display goes away.)


...Peder...
--
Sløv uten dop




Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 2, 2020, 9:58:06 AM9/2/20
to Robert Pluim, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 08:59:56 +0200
>
> >> Lucid + Xaw is common enough, itʼs mixing in Cairo thatʼs uncommon. To
> >> me, Cairo pretty much implies GTK.
>
> Eli> Surely, given our troubled experiences with GTK, we don't want to have
> Eli> it as a single toolkit supported in the Cairo build?
>
> I can understand that, but nobody is stepping up to e.g. make Lucid
> work well on HiDPI screens, so it will become increasingly
> irrelevant.

It's one thing to have a configuration bitrot because no one is
motivated and/or capable enough to maintain it. It's quite another to
decide we don't want to even try keeping that configuration alive.
I'd rather we didn't do the latter for reasons of making our lives
simpler, because it will make someone else's life less simple.



Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 2, 2020, 10:06:06 AM9/2/20
to James Cloos, rpl...@gmail.com, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org>, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 06:24:12 -0400
>
> (i don't use menus, but a quick test of yesyerday's master with -Q has
> working menus.)

So you are saying that the OP's problem started happening only
yesterday?



James Cloos

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Sep 2, 2020, 10:29:06 AM9/2/20
to Eli Zaretskii, rpl...@gmail.com, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> writes:

EZ> So you are saying that the OP's problem started happening only
EZ> yesterday?

no.

i'm saying that my current compile of master is twenty some hour old,
uses xaw3d and cairo, and that, with -Q at least, menus display.

Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 2, 2020, 10:52:05 AM9/2/20
to James Cloos, rpl...@gmail.com, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com>
> Cc: rpl...@gmail.com, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:28:24 -0400
>
> >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> writes:
>
> EZ> So you are saying that the OP's problem started happening only
> EZ> yesterday?
>
> no.
>
> i'm saying that my current compile of master is twenty some hour old,
> uses xaw3d and cairo, and that, with -Q at least, menus display.

Are you also using Lucid?

If so, then maybe this problem cannot be easily reproduced on every
platform in this build?



Robert Pluim

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Sep 2, 2020, 11:20:07 AM9/2/20
to Eli Zaretskii, po...@pouar.net, James Cloos, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:50:41 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> said:

>> From: James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com>
>> Cc: rpl...@gmail.com, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:28:24 -0400
>>
>> >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <el...@gnu.org> writes:
>>
EZ> So you are saying that the OP's problem started happening only
EZ> yesterday?
>>
>> no.
>>
>> i'm saying that my current compile of master is twenty some hour old,
>> uses xaw3d and cairo, and that, with -Q at least, menus display.

Eli> Are you also using Lucid?

I donʼt think !Lucid + xaw3d is possible, but I haven't checked.

Eli> If so, then maybe this problem cannot be easily reproduced on every
Eli> platform in this build?

Iʼve just built emacs-27 with Lucid and xaw3d, and the menus display
fine. Iʼve tried YAMAMOTO-san's suggestion about
Emacs.pane.menubar.font, but with a non-existent font, and that also
works fine.

Robert



Eli Zaretskii

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Sep 2, 2020, 11:27:08 AM9/2/20
to Robert Pluim, po...@pouar.net, cl...@jhcloos.com, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com>
> Cc: James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com>, po...@pouar.net, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:19:05 +0200
>
> Eli> Are you also using Lucid?
>
> I donʼt think !Lucid + xaw3d is possible, but I haven't checked.

That was what I knew, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing
anything.

> Eli> If so, then maybe this problem cannot be easily reproduced on every
> Eli> platform in this build?
>
> Iʼve just built emacs-27 with Lucid and xaw3d, and the menus display
> fine. Iʼve tried YAMAMOTO-san's suggestion about
> Emacs.pane.menubar.font, but with a non-existent font, and that also
> works fine.

So I guess the question becomes what's different with OP's system that
it doesn't work there?



Robert Pluim

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Sep 3, 2020, 5:10:07 AM9/3/20
to Peder O. Klingenberg, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:38:12 +0200, "Peder O. Klingenberg" <pe...@news.klingenberg.no> said:

Peder> On ti., 2020-09-01 kl. 17.05 +0200 +0200, Robert Pluim wrote:
>> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
>> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
>> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).

Peder> I'm running configure on master like this:

Peder> ./configure --with-x-toolkit=lucid --prefix=/not/relevant

Peder> and that gives me

Peder> What toolkit should Emacs use? LUCID
Peder> Does Emacs use -lXaw3d? yes
Peder> Does Emacs use cairo? yes

Peder> So Cairo seems to be default (and thus probably most common) when
Peder> configuring to build with Lucid?

Cairo is the default on master, whether you use GTK or Lucid, you'd
have to configure --without-cairo to not use it.

Peder> (GTK simply doesn't work for me because I depend on daemon mode and Emacs not
Peder> crashing when a display goes away.)

Hmm, thereʼs a feature/one-true-gtk



Robert Pluim

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Sep 3, 2020, 5:20:06 AM9/3/20
to Peder O. Klingenberg, 43...@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2020 11:09:29 +0200, Robert Pluim <rpl...@gmail.com> said:

>>>>> On Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:38:12 +0200, "Peder O. Klingenberg" <pe...@news.klingenberg.no> said:
Peder> On ti., 2020-09-01 kl. 17.05 +0200 +0200, Robert Pluim wrote:
>>> Putting on my 'let's simplify' hat, is this really a combination we
>>> want to spend time on? Lucid + Xaw + Cairo is decidedly non-mainstream
>>> (Iʼm surprised it even builds).

Peder> (GTK simply doesn't work for me because I depend on daemon mode and Emacs not
Peder> crashing when a display goes away.)

What I meant to say before I rudely interrupted myself: thereʼs an
effort to have emacs use 'pure' GTK that might solve this, although
the solution could end up at 'use Wayland', which as far as I know
doesnʼt have the equivalent of X display forwarding yet, so that still
wouldnʼt solve your issue (assuming youʼre doing ssh -X or similar).

Robert






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