Gospel of Thomas Saying 30
gnostic ken
30
"Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."
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30 Jesus said,
"Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."
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30 Where there are three Gods, They are Gods. Where there are two,or one, I am with Him.
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30. Y'shua says: Where there are three gods, they are «godless. Where there is only one, I say that» I myself am with him. «Raise the stone and there you shall find me, cleave the
wood and there am I.»
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(30) Jesus says:
(1) "Where there are three gods, they are gods.
(2) Where there are two or one, I am with him."
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30 Jesus dwells where there are two or more
JESUS said,
"Where there are three divine beings they are divine.
Where there are two or one, I myself dwell with that person."
Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:41 pm,
slvanatter@... said:
"Realize that everyone is divine. My nature
is inside you." (Scott Vanatter's
observation...)
"If men do not understand the character of
God, they do not understand
themselves." (Smith's general observation.)
Scott Vanatter
Oct 06, 2006 07:43 PDT, Tom said:
As
long as you define gods out there, Christ is not with you. You have
your gods and they take up your mindset and there is no room. When
you get down to the core duality, the core monad in which all is
one and one is all, then Christ is with you.
When Buddha wanted to become enlightened, part of his journey
involved giving up the gods, or giving up relying on the gods for his
spiritual path.
Christ is the reward of becoming atheist.
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
=====================================
Oct 06, 2006 09:40 PDT, slvanatter@... said:
Everyone* has the spark of divinity (the Christ within).
Scott V.
Oct 09, 2006 09:19 PDT, I said:
Hi Scott,
I think in the myths Jesus represents everyhuman while the Christ
represents that part of everyhuman which is aware of its connection with
What Is.
Ken
Oct 09, 2006 09:54 PDT, slvanatter@... answered:
Yes, and that potential awareness is latent inside everyone (waiting to
be revealed/discovered/recognized/appreciated/etc.) . . . sooner or later.
Oct 09, 2006 12:08 PDT, I answered:
Hummm, do you really think so? Will the sleepwalkers really wake up some
day? I have known people who I believe have lived their whole lives
without ever showing any interest in the voice within.
Ken
Oct 11, 2006 07:36 PDT, Tom said: is awakening for everyone? are some
SUPPOSED to remain asleep?
if everyone went to school to be a professional, there would be no one
left to work the drive thrus. perhaps the herd is never meant to be
awakened. they seem happy enough in their fish bowl lives we think we
have found such a cool thing with our gnosis and insights and all,
that we think it should be for everyone, but maybe not.
I took in this stray cat, thinking she wanted to live in a house, she was
miserable and sick. Last week I got disgusted with her and threw
her out. I went out to feed and visit with her yesterday afternoon and she
is healthier and happier than ever. She didn't want to go back
in the house. She was purringly grateful that I had granted her her
freedom. What a lesson. Some things we love and we take in and hold
close. Some things we love and we push out and set free. Perhaps What Is
has pushed out and set free the herd of sentient beings because
that is their purpose, their true nature. Not that the door to the Pleroma
is locked, it is just that they would rather roll in the dirt and go
whereever they please.
I dunno...
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
=====================================
Oct 11, 2006 09:31 PDT, I answered Tom,
Hi Tom,
I think that's what the ancients meant when they talked about the chosen
ones or those who are called. I don't think they meant it as an elitist
thing. They were just pointing out that some have an interest
in Gnosis, in awakening, and some have no interest at all. No point
in expending energy trying to awaken someone who cannot awaken.
"Don't recite poetry to pigs. It is a waste of time and it irritates
the pigs."
Ken
Wed
Mar 19, 2008 10:28 am, evwheeler@... said:
Where there is the three, There is fullness (non-movement) Just being.
single complete beyond awareness and I am trying to describe the
ineffable, as feeble as this is. quantum physics says this is impossible
but, OH well. Where there is two Jesus is present for the purpose of
awareness is to experience. I equate the word Jesus with consciousness. So
in and with the three Jesus is the three as well as ( wisdom) = holy spirit
or mother and mystery father. I hope someone can relate to this as well.
In just being (the three) The circle is complete.
ed
Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:39 pm, Gnostic Tom said:
Christ is only with you until you reach a state of completion,then you are
on your own.
G n o s t i c . T o m
Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:27 am, eugnostos2000@... said:
I try as much as possible to use each logia as a spring-board for insight,
but I am also aware that the author had his own agenda. IMO, this logia is
just a disparaging comment on the emerging Trinitarian thinking. IMO,
there are several chronological layers to GoT. This logia is
probably from a later stage of development.
-Steve
Sat Oct 2, 2010 10:22 am , Sam said:
Tripartite God ... figment of Men's mind.
Omnipresence* ... is what gnowing find.
* = whatever icon preferred.
itso,
philo
Mon Oct 4, 2010 7:26 am, Gnostic Tom responded to Sam's post:
so "gods" is a mind trap
and "Trinity" is just another mind trap
but if you can see the duality (two) of all,
the dance of yin and yang,
or the oneness of all,
you have with you "I am"
Tom
Sat Oct 2, 2010 1:29 pm, Oregon George said:
The Greek version from Oxyrhynchus:
Jesus said, "Where there are three they are without God. And
where there is only one, I say, I am with him. Lift the stone and there you
will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
The closest parallel in Matthew:
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you
ask for, it will be done for you by my father in heaven. For where two or
three come together in my name, there I am with them." Matt.
18:19-20
Before the Coptic translator(s) worked on it, this saying had an earlier Greek
version. It's impossible to say who did what to what and when, but it
still can be seen that the Coptic is quite unlike the earlier Greek. Gods show
up in 30:1 and there is no mention in this Coptic version of anything or anyone
being without God. Then, in 30:2, the number, two, is inexplicably added
to the number, one, and both are declared worthy of Jesus' presence.
Finally, the statement about stone and wood is turned around and exiled to GTh
77. This is what happens when the Greek is compared to the Coptic.
Again, it seems impossible to say just how this happened, although I have a few
ideas as to why, which I'll get to later.
I believe, though, that the Greek version shows signs of tampering, as well,
and may not be identical to the earliest possible version. This is what I
suspect this saying said originally:
Original Version:
Jesus said, "Where there are two or three, they are without God. And
where there is only one, I say that I am with him. Lift the stone and
there you will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
This is nearly identical to the Greek version, except that the phrase,
"two or three" replaced the mere "three". I do this
for several reasons. It seems odd to me that the "two or three"
phrase pops up in the Matthew version (quoted above) but not in the
others. Secondly, what is so significant about the number, three?
Does it have some special meaning here. I don't think so. It could
refer to the Trinity, but what would an attack on the concept of the Trinity
have to do with the final stone and wood statements.? Lastly, when the
"two or three" is restored to it, the meaning becomes accessible and
the parts of the saying suddenly fits together.
This is another instance where Nonduality explains what Jesus was getting
at. Again, Nonduality is the idea that a world of competing and separate
entities cannot exist, that oneness is the only possible reality. It
states that the created never left its source, but only appears to in our
temporarily deluded minds. Restated, this sayings says, where there is
the illusion of duality (two or three) God is not there. God does not
share this illusion and is therefore absent from it. The more man loses
himself in a world of endless complexity and conflict, the more the idea of God
recedes from his mind. But when only unity is seen (only one) Jesus says
that he is with that one. That's where his whole mind and being is.
All of life is there and all of life is one. Even the creepy crawler
under the rock is one with Jesus, as is the tiny beetle inside the wood.
I suspect that the scribe of the Greek version dropped the word "two"
because suggesting that two are without God would seem to be an attack on the
sanctity of marriage. Just a guess. He didn't really understand the
broader vision behind the saying. You can see this broader vision,
however, throughout the Gospel of Thomas. The preference of one over two
in various forms is quite evident. In GTh48 he calls this unity "one
house." In GTh72 he insists that he is not "a
divider."
In the case of the Coptic scribe whose version seems so odd, I suspect that he
looked at the Greek version that spoke of three without God and assumed that it
was referring to the Trinity. He asked himself, how could God be without
God. Surely this must be a mistake. So he changed it to read
"Where there are three gods, they are gods" affirming the concept of
the Trinity. He then adds that Jesus, being part of this Trinity, would
be united with the Father or the Holy Spirit. "Where there are two
or one, I am with him." He seems to have forgotten to change this
final "him" of the Greek version to "them."
George
Corvallis, OR
10 May 11, I said:
It's a hard one to understand.
I don't remember what I posted about it in the past. I'll dig them
up in a few minutes. But off the top of my head here goes:
Remember the ancients believed in body, soul and spirit. Today
some refer to this as body, mind and spirit. I think perhaps this is talking
about having a proper balance between the three.
I see the "Jesus" that is dwelling within where there
are the (other) two as being the Christ spirit.
IMO.
Ken
10 May 11 Clive said:
After reading through the replys you pasted, I'm still unsure on
this one.
I'm with Scott when he said -
"Yes, and that potential awareness is latent inside everyone
(waiting to be
revealed/discovered/recognized/appreciated/etc.) . . . sooner or
later."
He seems to have caused a bit of a debate about this. "Sooner
or later" for me,means in any of our existences.
13 May 11, I said:
I suppose each of us might be a potential math genius too, but I
really don't think so. My opinion is we each have our strengths and weakness,
our own narrow path to follow.
Ken
13 May 11, Clive said:
Yes, I guess our individual strengths and weaknesses make each of us about as unique as fingerprints