Gospel of Thomas Saying 2

[gnostic ken]

(2) [Jesus says,] "Let him who see[ks] not
cease [seeking unti]l he finds and when he finds, [he will be
astounded, and] having been [astoun]ded, he will reign an[d
having reigned], he will re[st]" (Cf. NHC II, 32: 14-19)
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2 Jesus said,
"Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find.
When they find, they will be disturbed.
When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
..................................................

(2) Jesus said,
"Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds.
When he finds, he will become troubled.
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished,
and he will rule over the All."
..................................................

2.)
Let him who seeks,
Not cease from his search until he finds.
When he finds he will be bewildered,
And when bewildered,
He will wonder, and reign over the All.
...................................................

2. Y'shua says:
Let him who seeks not cease seeking until he finds,
and when he finds he shall be troubled,
and when he has been troubled he shall marvel and he shall reign over
the
totalityº
 (Dan 7:27, Lk 1:29, Rev/Ap 1:6,
3:21,
5:10, 20:4)
................................................

(02) Jesus says:
(1) "The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
(2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed.
(3) And when he is dismayed, he will be astonished.
(4) And he will be king over the All."

[gnostic ken]

Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:56 am, Buddhist Steve said:

The lower self is troubled and tormented in the Great
Search and can scarcely believe where the Gnosis has taken him. He
looks into the mirror of Self and is astonished to see that God is
looking back at him. When he realizes that he is the Creator then he
can reign and rest. -Steve W.

Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:14 pm, Roadhouse Jack said:

This stuff surpaddes my experience.
I will only surmise that when the ego realizes it is the creator that
it really sees it is , after all, the Demiurge whose view of the
world is his own. This is what Jung calls (I think this applies)
reeling in the projection. This has got to be pretty humbling. It
would make the idea of 'reigning" quite ironic !
Jack

Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:13 am, I said:

Don't accept dogma. Keep searching until you find the truth for
yourself.

The truth ain't what you have been lead to believe it is.

It will blow your mind.

You will then be in complete control of himself.

[gnostic ken]

Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:10 am, itsallrozee said:

IMO..If you really want to know the truth about it All, you Will
find it, But the revelation that ones life has been a lie, lived
behind a veil, is like finding your house is built on sand and is
about to slide from under you - very troubling, very disturbing -
then when that's happened, when your house of cards has collapsed and
you lay amongst the rubble, (all desire and passion for living has
left you) and the first dark night begins..(may yours be mercifully
brief)
That one emerges from this troubled state, not only standing but
renewed, refreshed and clarified, is astonishing because you truly
thought it was the end of you. but surprise! it's just the beginning
or rather the beginning of self rememberence.
'he will rule over all' is true and straight forward. For me it is
the freedom I have to be and do as I please, watching earthly life
bend and bow to my state of concsiousness - whether percieved and
experienced as good or bad, I am very aware of my freedom. I stand
apart from the world and it's laws. I'm in the world but not of it.
Not that bad things stop happening, but that it doesn't matter
anymore. I choose whether it matters or not. There is a shift of
power, and peace in the certainty.
'ye have no power over me except it be given to you from above'
I rest in that. goodnite, it's 2am in oz. x

Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:53 pm, Rosalie said:

I wonder if the word "disturbed" could be interpreted as "surprised."
That's my feeling, followed by marveling, at a gnostic insight.

Rosalie

Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:50 pm, I answered Rosalie:

Hi Rosalie,
Could be. But as for me, the first time I had to look
myself in the mirror and realize that everything I had
believed was wrong I was very disturbed. The second
time I was a little disturbed and the third time it
was just "Here I go down the rabbit hole again. Hang
on."

Ken

Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:09 pm, P3nn said:

MM Ken

Ah yes. An old saing I would use comes into play here. "Don't hold too tight
to that which you know to be true today. For tomorrow you will know it to be
false."

MP
P3nn

[gnostic ken]

> "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find.

Thu Jan 1, 2009 8:09 am, I said:
Not sure this is really true. Hitting rock bottom and giving up, "the
long dark night of the soul", utter despair, seems to be part of the
process for many people.

Ken

> When they find, they will be disturbed.

Thu Jan 1, 2009 8:11 am, I said:
This part I certainly agree with. It is very distrubing to realize
everything one has believed is illusion.

Ken

> astounded, and] having been [astoun]ded, he will reign an[d
> having reigned], he will re[st]" (Cf. NHC II, 32: 14-19)

Thu Jan 1, 2009 8:14 am, I said:
I have trouble with the "rule over all" part. This translation seems
better to me. I think it means rule over self or understand the All,
not be a ruler over everything.

Ken

Thu Jan 1, 2009 10:02 am, annokig said:

The process of gnosis...IMO
Looking inside is always disturbing, but once adept at it
you see the world spirituality and everything else in a new
light. thus the marveling. and the disturbing...the path is
not easy but can bring you peace.
IMO
Ann

Thu Jan 1, 2009 10:15 am, annokig answered my post on "not stop seeking":

Yes, but then utter despair, in a sense is the cessation of
the search.
Ken, and others, I am not sure you realized this but I have
suffered major depressive disorder for most of my life." I
have ups and downs. I know others on the list have as well
had their "behavioral science isssues" I think we can
recognize each other. Now I think I am on an uptrend to
maybe stable.... so when I say this I say it with having
been to the place of giving up. Thankfully, usually I find
the courage to go on. Some don't.

This group has brought be much peace because I realize my
search is not a solo journey. There are others out there
seeking as well. Others who have similar beleifs. Others
who will not ostracize. Though really the journey is a
journey of ONE but it's nice to see a buddy every once in a
while.

So easy to say, so hard to accomplish.

With love
Ann

Thu Jan 1, 2009 10:19 am, annokig said:

I like the "rest" part. The path is difficult and shocking
sometimes. I am personally of the beleif that when we
die.(or reach self actualization) ...we are shown the truth
as we re-enter the All. Good Bad Ugly, but without judgement
and this allows us to nderstand "Rest". No doubts no reading
between the lines no anxiety.

I hope this is true anyway.

Ann

Thu Jan 1, 2009 7:37 pm, alciraenaya said:

This quote is saying that looking for what you want, may wind up
blowing your mind but then you will be impressed by what you get,
although you can't always get what you want. As you know, you don't
always get what you want but you find some time, you get what you
need. Then you will come out of the crazy times that are the dark
night of the soul, and finally see that other people will be inspired
by what you've create for yourself, then will respect your leadership
so that they get out of their own darkness.

Alcira

Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:10 am I replied:

Hi Ann,
Thanks for sharing.
Many on this list, myself included, have suffered major depression.

Ken

Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:14 am, I added:

Hi Alcira,
I have found that sometimes if one keeps asking one will get what is
asked for whether it is what is needed or not.

Ken

Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:28 pm, henrybellak also answered:

Hi Ann and all, yes, I have gone thru major depressions.
Henry B. Ellak

[gnostic ken]

Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:15 pm, Oregon George said:
This saying is both an elaboration on what "finding" means and a chronicling of
stages through which the seeker passes. It is obviously not an ordinary
finding. It is not like finding a lost wallet or a favorite hat. It is
obviously a discovery of immense importance and impact. And although it does
not identify what is found, the next saying (GTh 3) puts the focus on the
"Kingdom." It says of the Kingdom that it is "inside of you, and it is outside
of you." Additionally, it speaks of a profound realization that happens "when
you come to know yourselves." What is found in this saying then, is apparently
the truth about oneself, this profound realization, that one is a son of the
"living father." So when one finds this truth about himself, he is then
"troubled" and "astonished."

Actually, the earlier Greek version describes the experience more simply. On
finding the truth, one is first "astounded." The word, "troubled" seems to have
been added later to the Coptic version. In fact, one would expect one to be
troubled prior to the finding, leading up to the finding, not after the finding.
Many mystics have confirmed this. Letting go of the known and of all ego
attachments is the difficult phase prior to full awareness and a prerequisite of
it. And yet, it seems to be an essential phase, too.

So the first experience the seeker meets with is astonishment. Some translators
of both the Coptic and the Greek have used the word, "marvel," which is
permissible, but rather too weak in the context of this saying. The implication
of GTh 3 is that the seeker is fundamentally mistaken about who he thinks he is.
And in that state of not knowing, he "dwells in poverty" and indeed his identity
is poverty itself. So when his true identity is revealed to him, it is an
astounding moment. His prior beliefs about himself are gone, replaced by a
great wealth. Through the lens of this new identity all the petty obsessions and
limitations of his old life must of necessity shrink to nothing.

The earliest version we have of this saying, and probably the most authentic for
that reason, was one mentioned by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, circa
198-203 AD (see above). He alludes to it as originating from the Gospel of the
Hebrews, a lost gospel, unknown except for fragments quoted by later writers. 
There is no mention in this version of the word, "troubled," but included is the
reference to "rest" found in the Oxyrhynichus version, but missing from the
Coptic version. With the word, "reign," common to all three, the suggestion is
that he who is astonished will then reign over everything because of his new
perspective as a son of God.

Many scholars have noted that this saying seems unlike anything seen in the four
gospels of the New Testament. As is true of many of the other sayings, there is
no mention here of salvation in an afterlife; salvation is a present experience.
There is no mention of supplication or prayer for what one yearns for; salvation
is within one's grasp. The seeker merely seeks earnestly and does the work
himself. The Gospel as a whole mentions nothing about salvation as a reward for
good behavior. As I have suggested before, like a shoe that is made to order
for a certain foot, the concept of nondualism fits perfectly the sayings of this
gospel. As you go into it, you find that the Gospel of Thomas stresses the
awareness of oneness or oneness as the ultimate reality. This awareness, being
the antithesis of separation, whether in space or in time, cannot be named and
it cannot be described. It can only be pointed to and alluded to by the effect
it has on the seeker who finds the treasure. This is what this saying does; it
describes and chronicles the effect of divine awareness on the mind of the
seeker. It appears more like a Buddhist saying, than a Christian one. That is
probably so because Buddhism is a religion loosely based on nondualist ideas, as
are many other eastern traditions. That is not to say that Jesus shared all of
the precepts of the yet to be born Buddha, or even the ideas of the Hindu Vedas.
But this Jesus, the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, does seem to have embraced a
very clear understanding of his own brand of nondualism.

In the context of nondualism, to reign over everything means to finally come to
the understanding that the world of space and time is not the solid and certain
thing one previously believed. It is a projection of the mind; some have called
it a holographic projection in which the ego self is itself part of that
projection. According to this idea, the true Self is the whole of creation,
united seamlessly with God. So when this saying speaks of reigning over the all
or over everything, it does not mean that the seeker rules as an earthly king;
it means that he no longer is subject to the limitations of this world, no
longer a victim of its co called natural laws. He understands that his world
was merely a projection of his fears of the unknown and of God. Embracing God,
he now can rest, rest as only the really free can rest. Though he still is in
this world of illusion, he is not of the world. He merely watches it
dispassionately and guides his fellow souls toward the light.

Thank you.

George Duffy
Corvallis, OR