Gospel of Thomas Saying 15

[gnostic ken]

What does this say to you?

15 Jesus said,
"When you see one who was not born of woman,
fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."
..................................................

(15) Jesus said,
"When you see one who was not born of woman,
prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him.
That one is your father."
..................................................

15.)
When you perceive
One not born of woman,
Prostate yourselves and worship him.
He is your father.
...................................................

15. Y'shua says:
When you see him who was not born of woman,
prostrate yourselves upon your faces and worship him--
he is your Father. (Th 101)
................................................

(15) Jesus says:
"When you see one who was not born of woman,
fall on your face (and) worship him. That one is your Father."

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Excerpts/thomas.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

http://www.ntgateway.com/noncanonical-texts/gospel-of-thomas/

[gnostic ken]

Aug 15, 2006 15:43 PDT, Gnostic Tom said:

the first thought that came to mind in reading this
is that in the Birth of Mary by James it reads
that Mary goes into this cave for Jesus to be born
and there is a midwife present, but the cave is
filled with light and Jesus appears out of the
light. Mary is confirmed to still be a virgin
and as such never gave birth to Jesus. of course
such a docetic view was repressed and this very
ancient text was not included in the new testament.

=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
=====================================

Aug 15, 2006 17:45 PDT , I replied:

Hi Tom,
So do you think that saying 15 is refering to this
light birth? Could be I guess.

Ken

Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am, gravesab said:

Funny this should come up now... I've been reading Living
Gnosis - A Practical Guide to Gnostic Christianity......
The sources cited in this book are the Jewish Kabballah. If
you have the book it starts on page 28. I find it a bit
confusing... but I'll try my best to summarize succintly.

In Kabballlistic teachings, Adam Kadmon is the pure
"emanation of divine being" while Adam Ha'Rishon the first
generation human (born of woman).. Very similar except that
Adam Kadmon is a person exiting in the light continuum....
representing the divine potential of the Human One in the
unmanifest...(or unawakend)...

Even Jesus referred to himself as a son of man... and
obviously was born of a woman..

Adam HaRishon is essentially the same .... except he
represents the activation (or awakening) of those who were
not born directly of the divine....

As individuals and as a collective we are Adam Kadmon
awakening and coming into substantial being and in this
sense we are all sons and daughters of ADam Kadmon,,,

Basically, in our spiritual lineage Adam Kadmon existed in
the light contiuum with the Divine and as we are all
spiritual descendants of him, he represents our connection
to the divine... or each or our divine sparks....


Hope this makes sense.... I am not a Kabballah expert, but
maybe someone who is can fill in or correct....

with love,
Ann

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:30 pm, P3nn said:

OMG! McBeth is my Father LOL
Sorry. Couldn't resist the urge to point out a variation on the virgin birth
myth Just as the creation of Adam and Eve are also virgin births

Apart from that. I see this pointing to our consciousness and that all we are
stems from it as the mind is absolute master of the body.

MP
p3nn

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:34 am, Gnostic Tom said:

Adam was born of Gaia,
after she had countless children
of every species, she was not a virgin.

Eve was born from Adam's side,
created out of one of his ribs,
after Lilith left Adam,
so Adam was not a virgin.

Eve had a father (Adam) but no mother,
while Jesus had a mother (Mary) but no father.

G n o s t i c . T o m

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:16 pm, Rosalie said:

What about the first Adam,
adam 'kadmon...


I've read only a little about this and don't remember all I read: So Adam
Kadmon was the spiritual prototype that preceded the human Adam? It does seem
like that would equate to the spiritual spark within.

Rosalie

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:30 am, gravesab said:

Hi there, hope this is a bit clearer from yesterday.

I was reading in a book called....Living Gnosis a Proactical
Guide to Gnostic Christianty byt Tau Malachi, and with
James's introduction... clarifying me alittle... (had a bad
pain day and was confused yesterday.)

Adam Kadmon from the Jewish Kabballah is the Adam mentioned
below and since he was not born of man or woman...he must
have been born of light or diviness....

The name Adam Ha'Rishon I guess is a group name for the
first generation humans... those born of Adam and Eve and on
from there.... I'l have to resort to paraphrasing and
quoting here....so I don't get it wrong. (I think it is hard
to follow even when I am not confused)

Starting on PAge 29 of the book....

"Through the process of creation, Adam Kadmon is
indiiduating and awakening to enter into a concious
unification with the light and divine being. The soul of
every human being that has ever existed , exists at present,
or that will ever exist comes from the great soul of Adam
Kadmon. Thus, in the deepest part of our being , as
individuals we are a unique expressions of Adam and, on a
collective level we are all united- in the human being of
light Adam Ha-Rishon. - the human being of light. [we are
all sons and daughters of Adam.. ] "The whole purpose of
creation is activiation and realization of the divine
potential represented by Adam of the divine potential
represented by Adam KAdmon and we are this purpose being
fulfilled.

The quote goes on a bit more and ends with "Whether we are
concious or unconscious of it, this is the truth of our
inmost being and essence." I think it is the the hereditary
gift of innermost being and essence that we are
worshipping... and guess what it is with in each of us...

Maybe this could be stretched further into "whatsoever you
do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me."



Hugs
Ann

PS HI Rozee!, You are correct, that the resemblemblance is
there.. with a few sublte differences Jesus was a Virgin
Birth, but actually claimed to be son of Man since he was
actually come through a human apparently the most common
term he uses to refer to himself is son of Adam....IMO and
no distAdam and Eve weren't really born they were
molded....created,.... makes me think of those claymation
figures....

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:49 pm, P3nn said:

MM Tom

Following the same logic we could conclude Mary not to be a virgin, nor the
rock that gave birth to Mitra, etc.

MP
p3nn

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:09 pm, itsallrozee said:

this saying means honour the spirit, imo.

Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:49 pm, henrybellak said:

I do not and will not worship anything. What is worship, I have
never understood this term.

I will not fall on my face for anything, nor will I ever worship
anything.

I have no Father. When Jesus talks of the two Fathers, the
Father of the Jewish religious leaders, and "My Father in
heaven", neither one of these are my Father. I have no
Father.

I know, I know, am I emotionally reacting to my earth biological
Father. Perhaps, to a limited degree.
I never bonded with either my mother or father, so I do not
understand what this term means.

Like Honor thy Father and Mother, what does this mean?
Does this mean biological Mother and Father, or perhaps
something else?

In my opinion, there are many Mothers and Fathers, on earth
physical plane, who are not worthly of Honor, In my opinion.

Henry B.

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 pm, P3nn said:

MM Henry

Worship is basically the condition of being worthy. So in essence anything you
consider to be worthy of your attention is being worhiped by you ;)

MP
p3nn

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:17 am, Brenda said:

Henry,

In college I had a religion class with a catholic priest. I remember
that he said that worship means to treat someone in accordance with
his/her worth. If that definition is accurate, then it doesn't
necessarily mean to fall down on your hands and knees before anyone.

Brenda

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:55 pm, choshek_al_t... said:

We never need to fall on our face and worship another person, for
there is no person not born of woman. Anyone who demands our worship
is unworthy for that one, just like me, was born of woman.

The only one not born of woman whom I shall meet is my own inner self-
-the divine spark within. To reverence it is to reverence the Father.

Mark

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:36 am, Gnostic Tom said:

I had a thought
regarding this verse,
the "human" that demanded to be worshipped
as a god was Caesar.

G n o s t i c . T o m

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:51 pm, wheelerjeanine said:

How about the 'Pharaohs' of Egypt that pre-dated the Roman 'Caesars'? Weren't
they also 'humans' that purportedly demanded to be worshiped as 'god' ??? This
seems to be a thread in many mythologies, where a 'human' becomes a stand-in for
'god'; i.e., to put a 'face' on a deity for easier reference by the masses
(people) . . . . IMO, each 'mythology' has a 'dying and resurrecting entity
(figure) to make it easier for uninitiated people to relate too . . . What say
you Group???

IMHO, Saying 15 admonishes each of us to find our inner divine consciousness
(i.e., our 'god within') and not to rely on extraneous figures to represent
'god'. IOWs, we are 'god'; thus all we are able to see would be a reflection
(as in a mirror, still body of water, etc) of our 'god' within . . . .

Sharing the Joy,
Jeanine

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:26 am, Gnostic Tom answered wheelerjeanine:

that is the meaning of the oft misunderstood
saying, "if you find the Buddha on the road,
you should kill him" because if Buddha does
not appear within, if Buddha does not appear
as your true nature, Buddha too becomes an
idol, a clinging holding you back.

G n o s t i c . T o m

[gnostic ken]

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:25 am, gortoz said:

We are already actualized , we just dont know it because we
are on a journey to actualization . I suppose its best not
to rush these things . Maybe the demiurge knew that , so he
had to slow things down a bit .
From Gort

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:14 am, Gnostic Tom replied to gortoz:

perhaps the arrival is not the point

life (zoe) is a journey, not a destination

G n o s t i c T o m

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:05 pm, wheelerjeanine said:

Gort - - - -

IMHO, almost everyone is searching for 'something' .... Could it possibly be
that spiritual nature you are discounting ???? .... Could it be possible that
some just haven't 'grown' enough to recognize what it is that they are truly
searching for ??? ....IME, 'spirit' goes by many names. Each definition just
depends upon the searcher's perception of what their personal quest is .....
What say you?????

JMO,
/jrw

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:31 pm, gravesab said:

I have to get my Gnostic Living Book
out and map out the names....\\

From Adam Kadmon to AdamHa' Rishon and down to Jesus...and
James.. I am sure there are more allegorical clues in that
"geneology" as well...

Stay tuned Ann

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:34 am, Gnostic Tom said:

I suggest finding a copy of the
Metaphysical Bible Dictionary,
compiled by Charles Fillmore, the
founder of the Unity School of
Christianity back in 1889.

He noted the metaphysical meanings
behind the people names and place
names mentioned in the Bible, seeing
the symbology that is lost in a
literal reading of the texts.

What Charles was on a quest for
was what he called the "inner esoteric
stream" that could be extracted from
the religions.

Anyways, he explains in detail the
meaning of names. Available on amazon.com.

gnostic tom

Fri Nov 9, 2007 3:39 pm, choshek_al_t... said:

A good read on James the Just as the literal brother of Jesus is
called "The Brother of Jesus and The Lost Teachings of Christianity"
by Jeffrey Butz. The arguement, with which I agree, is that James
was the first and chosen leader to succeed Jesus in the Jerusalem
church. However, it was the church that followed Peter that won the
day and who did their best to erase the early influence of James.
But as the brother of Jesus, there is evidence to suggest that he
understood the gnosis of Jesus and this gnosis was heavily influenced
by Judaism and reflected the Torah. This was in opposition in many
ways to the teachings of Paul, who sought the approval of both James
and Peter as found in Acts. This saying #12, though having multiple
layers of meaning my also be understood in a rather straight-forward
way: follow James, not Peter or Paul. Perhaps the Gospel of Thomas
was held with some esteem among the followers of James, the brother
of Jesus.

Mark

Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:43 am, Buddhist Steve said:

The First Apocalypse of James states that "brother"
is to be understood figuratively. I agree with Freke and Gandy,
as well as Earl Dougherty, that "Brother of the Lord" was an
honorary title for one who had been initiated into the deepest
levels of the Jesus Mystery. I do think that James was an historical
person, but I don't regard him as having been the literal brother
of an historical Jesus. There is a reference in Josephus to "James,
brother of Jesus the alleged Christ." IMO, the clause, "brother of
Jesus the alleged Christ" is probably an interpolation in that
neither this passage nor the more famous "Testimonium Flavium"
passage is mentioned by the early Church Fathers, such as Origen,
in their debates with pagan and Jewish critics. There is also the
possibility that the passage is genuine but merely shows that,
although Josephus was familiar with the Jesus Cult, he didn't
himself realize that their "Jesus" was not an historical person
as put forth in the literalistic 1st-level of initiation into
the Mystery-Religion. Either way, I personally think that "Brother
of the Lord" was simply an honorary title typical of Mystery-
Religions.
-Steve

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:49 am, vang19th said:

I have learned a lot about spiritual development, inner peace and how to use
the silent prayer as a meditative focus, by reading the gnostic scriptures of
the Nag Hammadi Library. I have also come to know myself better through the kind
of spiritual light that is very often mentioned in these scriptures. I have a
hunted mind, but it has been much worse, and I have no reason to doubt that the
spiritual knowledge I have attain by reading these things have helped me.
The old gnostic consider the soul to be eternal, and it is eternal because it
is not material. This view they have from Plato. He believes in a life after
death. I myself have come to believe in it too.

Soren

[gnostic ken]

Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:29 am, annokig said:

In Christian mythology, I would guess that means Adam HaRishon, Adam Kadmon
and Eve. and of course The Almighty himself. Even Jesus himself was born of
a woman. Ithink he is thinking spirit here.?

Ann

Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:01 am, I replied:

Hi Ann,
In Gnostic mythology Jesus was the brother of Sophia and as such
would not have been born of woman, but yes, I think "he" was talking
of the Christ within which is spirit.

Ken

Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:33 am, annokig said:

Ok, now I am arguing with myself - see what you guys have turned me into..
Even the Almighty.was born of Sophia... so where does that leave us..

Ann

Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:04 am, I answered:

Hi Ann,
Welcome to Gnosticism. As Gnostics we agrue with ourselves all of the
time.

By "the Almighty" do you mean the demiurge? Well, Sophia wasn't a
woman. She was a goddess.

Ken

Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:00 am, annokig said: replied:

Yes, I mean the demiurge. True true. Sophia the Goddess,.

But I think your are right, he means the spirit or he divine within.

Ann