Gospel of Thomas Saying 16
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gnostic ken
Aug 24, 2012, 10:07:44 AM8/24/12
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16 Jesus said,
"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace
upon the world. They do not know that I have come
to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house:
there'll be three against two and two against three,
father against son and son against father,
and they will stand alone.
.....................
16 Jesus said,
"Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come
to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is
dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth:
fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house:
three will be against two, and two against three,
the father against the son, and the son against the father.
And they will stand solitary."
............................
16 Men think that
I came to bring peace to the world
They do not know that
i bring division,
fire and sword and war.
There shall be five in a house
With three against two
and two against three;
The father against the son,
and the son against the father,
and they shall stand alone.
...........................
16. Y'shua says:
People perhaps think that I have come to cast peace upon
the world, and they do not know that I have come to cast
divisions upon the earth--fire, sword, war.
For there shall be five in a house--three shall be against two
and two against three, the father against the son and the son
against the father. And they shall stand as solitaries.
........................
16 Jesus says:
(1) "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace
upon the earth.
(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast
dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
(3) For there will be five in one house:
there will be three against two and two against three,
father against son and son against father.
(4) And they will stand as solitary ones."
"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace
upon the world. They do not know that I have come
to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house:
there'll be three against two and two against three,
father against son and son against father,
and they will stand alone.
.....................
16 Jesus said,
"Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come
to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is
dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth:
fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house:
three will be against two, and two against three,
the father against the son, and the son against the father.
And they will stand solitary."
............................
16 Men think that
I came to bring peace to the world
They do not know that
i bring division,
fire and sword and war.
There shall be five in a house
With three against two
and two against three;
The father against the son,
and the son against the father,
and they shall stand alone.
...........................
16. Y'shua says:
People perhaps think that I have come to cast peace upon
the world, and they do not know that I have come to cast
divisions upon the earth--fire, sword, war.
For there shall be five in a house--three shall be against two
and two against three, the father against the son and the son
against the father. And they shall stand as solitaries.
........................
16 Jesus says:
(1) "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace
upon the earth.
(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast
dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
(3) For there will be five in one house:
there will be three against two and two against three,
father against son and son against father.
(4) And they will stand as solitary ones."
gnostic ken
Aug 25, 2012, 12:40:34 PM8/25/12
to gnost...@googlegroups.com
Wed Oct 8, 2003 11:12 am , I said:
We are not here to reform the world. Those who take the Gnostic path
will do so alone
will do so alone
Aug 17, 2006 08:38 PDT, I said:
It occurred to me as I was sending the above to this
group that this saying may be warning aspiring
Gnostics that following this path will not bring peace
to their lives. This was especially true in the
burning heretics age that was just beginning when this
saying was written down.
Ken 8-17-06
group that this saying may be warning aspiring
Gnostics that following this path will not bring peace
to their lives. This was especially true in the
burning heretics age that was just beginning when this
saying was written down.
Ken 8-17-06
Aug 17, 2006 12:11 PDT, Scott said:
If we apply this to our inner self (adding another layer to an extenal/literal/historical understanding), then it might have to do with what kind of initial experience "Jesus" brings to us:
"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."
Meaning, He is not (initially) bringin peace, but a CHALLENGE. Working through all of this -- to get to a true 'gnosis' -- causes some fire, sword, and warring INSIDE OURSLEVES.
Even our inner Father-nature battles our inner Son-nature -- UNTILL they can stand alone as EQUAL (solitary ones). When they are "equal" they can become one. When we are fighting within ourselves, we are all mixed up inside. 3 against 2 (as we see some concept) -- then the next day, 2 against 3 (IOW, we see some eternal the opposite way from what we did the previous day).
SUMMARY:
The unstated (paradoxical) principle is: There WILL be peace (after war).
But he brings war (at first).
Scott V.
"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."
Meaning, He is not (initially) bringin peace, but a CHALLENGE. Working through all of this -- to get to a true 'gnosis' -- causes some fire, sword, and warring INSIDE OURSLEVES.
Even our inner Father-nature battles our inner Son-nature -- UNTILL they can stand alone as EQUAL (solitary ones). When they are "equal" they can become one. When we are fighting within ourselves, we are all mixed up inside. 3 against 2 (as we see some concept) -- then the next day, 2 against 3 (IOW, we see some eternal the opposite way from what we did the previous day).
SUMMARY:
The unstated (paradoxical) principle is: There WILL be peace (after war).
But he brings war (at first).
Scott V.
Aug 18, 2006 06:40 PDT, I said:
Remember I think these sayings have many meanings. Just about
every time I read them I come up with something new.
Ken
every time I read them I come up with something new.
Ken
Aug 18, 2006 14:52 PDT, Scott responded to my first 2003 post above:
I like the succinctness of your thought.
I wonder though about how to include the fire, sword, war idea in your (beautiful) take on the syaing.
Thanks,
Scott
PS Harlod Bloom speaks to this Aloneness aspect of apprehending the Divine.
I wonder though about how to include the fire, sword, war idea in your (beautiful) take on the syaing.
Thanks,
Scott
PS Harlod Bloom speaks to this Aloneness aspect of apprehending the Divine.
Aug 21, 2006 06:45 PDT, I replied:
Hi Stott,
When other people find that you are no longer on a
path they approve of they often come down on you with
what feels like fire, sword and war. In the literalist
Christian age that was just beginning when this saying
was written down it could quite literally be fire
sword and even war.
Ken
When other people find that you are no longer on a
path they approve of they often come down on you with
what feels like fire, sword and war. In the literalist
Christian age that was just beginning when this saying
was written down it could quite literally be fire
sword and even war.
Ken
Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:31 pm, P3nn said:
OMG Christ is EVIL LOL
Seriously
I see this as saying the Christ mind isn't here to get us all to magically
agree with each other. Rather to get us to examine our differences by lobing
them at each other (discussion). I think the early Gnostics knew that
spiritual growth did not continue (let alone come) by simply having all
accept one thing. Rather it (spirit) grows thru conflict (in this case
examining oppossing views) and then attempting to make sense of it all. We
know Christ speaks of his sword being truth in the Bible for instance. War in
this instance I see as aggitation or stirring into action. And peace I see as
that state where we think we know the truth so we rest from seeking it. So
Christ here is getting us to not sit on our laurels in seeking truth. And of
course getting people to discuss like that is a good way of getting them to
think for themselves ;)
MP
p3nn
Seriously
I see this as saying the Christ mind isn't here to get us all to magically
agree with each other. Rather to get us to examine our differences by lobing
them at each other (discussion). I think the early Gnostics knew that
spiritual growth did not continue (let alone come) by simply having all
accept one thing. Rather it (spirit) grows thru conflict (in this case
examining oppossing views) and then attempting to make sense of it all. We
know Christ speaks of his sword being truth in the Bible for instance. War in
this instance I see as aggitation or stirring into action. And peace I see as
that state where we think we know the truth so we rest from seeking it. So
Christ here is getting us to not sit on our laurels in seeking truth. And of
course getting people to discuss like that is a good way of getting them to
think for themselves ;)
MP
p3nn
Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:40 am, Ed said:
Great Thread Friends, Imho We have consciousnes (awareness) great, wonderful.
For me the interesting issue is perception (wisdom aka sophia) or the collapsing
by will and choice of all possibilities in any given moment to create ???
reality????. I believe this is what we do in every waking moment weather we are
aware of it or not. Those who have eyes to see, see. Those who don't, don't.
ed
For me the interesting issue is perception (wisdom aka sophia) or the collapsing
by will and choice of all possibilities in any given moment to create ???
reality????. I believe this is what we do in every waking moment weather we are
aware of it or not. Those who have eyes to see, see. Those who don't, don't.
ed
Saying 16, imo, expands on the themes of fire and conflict first proposed in
saying number 10: Jesus says: "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm
guarding it until it blazes," and while I don't exactly see these two sayings as
corollaries, I do think saying 16 is best examined in light of saying 10. So
that's where I'll start.
Saying 10 seems to demonstrate a cautionary and subversive aspect of Thomas's
Jesus. The Thomas Xians will be, Jesus intimates, by the nature of their
pursuits, in conflict with the normative religious beliefs and social
expectations of their community, pursuits that will be perceived as subversive
or threatening to some more so than to others, and thus it might be wise to show
discretion in public and, in some cases, within one's very family. One might be
playing with fire, especially those least in spiritual maturity.
On the esoteric other hand, the Thomas Xians themselves are the fires that
require Jesus's guardianship and tending until such a time when the individual
matures and becomes a blaze of self realization. The fire that burns within,
that motivates one to brave a path of apparent otherness, begins small and
vulnerable to the winds of self doubt; the winds of an often hostile and
reactionary world in fear of the stranger and social impermanence. Exactly who
and what within the Thomas community would serve as teacher, guardian and master
of the bellows is unknown at this time. As far as I'm aware no other Thomas
materials directly related to the original G of T community have been discovered
[If, as some biblical historians and theologians have speculated, the Gospel of
John was (partly or wholly) written with an eye to discrediting Thomas Xians,
it's unclear to me how much, if anything at all, can be learned about the Thomas
Xians through Gospel John by
speculating in terms of opposites or antitheses].
So it seems to me verses one and two of saying 16 reiterate and expand upon
saying 10 in that Thomas's Jesus shoots down any "sweetness and light" hopes and
expectations the seeker may have in regards to the journey toward self
knowledge; that it is not an inherently peaceful process (Not to trivialize this
in terms of "great rewards derived from great risks," but I think we do have to
consider how, overall, the Gospel of Thomas sharply divides those with self
knowledge from those without, seekers from the ignorant and complacent, the
spiritual from the worldly). In the final cautionary verses it is the social and
internal conflicts, Thomas's Jesus seems to be saying -- the fires and wars from
within and without - that keep many seekers from making real progress; keeps
many on the fringe looking in and wringing their hands. This Jesus appears to be
saying "Have no illusions, my children, this journey is often quite treacherous.
Be prepared for real
conflict betwixt you and the world around you, and betwixt your many selves and
many minds that, though artificial, jealously guard their own being and, when
threatened, will fight a war to the death for ascendancy." This same is stressed
many mystical traditions.
If only we knew more about the Thomas Xians and what lifestyle changes were
expected or demanded at all levels of participation we could probably penetrate
further into the meaning(s) of these sayings. It's one matter if they were
meeting casually one morning a week versus, at the opposite extreme, a near
monastic demand on their time and location (in relation to family, work,
community, etc.). If, as many argue, these sayings originated in mid to late
first century Syria, a very much Hellenized part of the world at that time,
there must have been all sorts of specialized gymnasia, assembly houses,
synagogues and such, which the Roman rulers became increasingly hostile to over
time.
Excuse me for being so late with this seeing as you've all moved on to the next
saying. I need to work harder to keep up.
By the way, do most of the group see G of T as a fully Gnostic treatise,
semi-Gnostic, or just plain unclear. I tend to see it as semi-Gnostic (a sort of
mish-mash with a dash of midrash).
Tom
saying number 10: Jesus says: "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm
guarding it until it blazes," and while I don't exactly see these two sayings as
corollaries, I do think saying 16 is best examined in light of saying 10. So
that's where I'll start.
Saying 10 seems to demonstrate a cautionary and subversive aspect of Thomas's
Jesus. The Thomas Xians will be, Jesus intimates, by the nature of their
pursuits, in conflict with the normative religious beliefs and social
expectations of their community, pursuits that will be perceived as subversive
or threatening to some more so than to others, and thus it might be wise to show
discretion in public and, in some cases, within one's very family. One might be
playing with fire, especially those least in spiritual maturity.
On the esoteric other hand, the Thomas Xians themselves are the fires that
require Jesus's guardianship and tending until such a time when the individual
matures and becomes a blaze of self realization. The fire that burns within,
that motivates one to brave a path of apparent otherness, begins small and
vulnerable to the winds of self doubt; the winds of an often hostile and
reactionary world in fear of the stranger and social impermanence. Exactly who
and what within the Thomas community would serve as teacher, guardian and master
of the bellows is unknown at this time. As far as I'm aware no other Thomas
materials directly related to the original G of T community have been discovered
[If, as some biblical historians and theologians have speculated, the Gospel of
John was (partly or wholly) written with an eye to discrediting Thomas Xians,
it's unclear to me how much, if anything at all, can be learned about the Thomas
Xians through Gospel John by
speculating in terms of opposites or antitheses].
So it seems to me verses one and two of saying 16 reiterate and expand upon
saying 10 in that Thomas's Jesus shoots down any "sweetness and light" hopes and
expectations the seeker may have in regards to the journey toward self
knowledge; that it is not an inherently peaceful process (Not to trivialize this
in terms of "great rewards derived from great risks," but I think we do have to
consider how, overall, the Gospel of Thomas sharply divides those with self
knowledge from those without, seekers from the ignorant and complacent, the
spiritual from the worldly). In the final cautionary verses it is the social and
internal conflicts, Thomas's Jesus seems to be saying -- the fires and wars from
within and without - that keep many seekers from making real progress; keeps
many on the fringe looking in and wringing their hands. This Jesus appears to be
saying "Have no illusions, my children, this journey is often quite treacherous.
Be prepared for real
conflict betwixt you and the world around you, and betwixt your many selves and
many minds that, though artificial, jealously guard their own being and, when
threatened, will fight a war to the death for ascendancy." This same is stressed
many mystical traditions.
If only we knew more about the Thomas Xians and what lifestyle changes were
expected or demanded at all levels of participation we could probably penetrate
further into the meaning(s) of these sayings. It's one matter if they were
meeting casually one morning a week versus, at the opposite extreme, a near
monastic demand on their time and location (in relation to family, work,
community, etc.). If, as many argue, these sayings originated in mid to late
first century Syria, a very much Hellenized part of the world at that time,
there must have been all sorts of specialized gymnasia, assembly houses,
synagogues and such, which the Roman rulers became increasingly hostile to over
time.
Excuse me for being so late with this seeing as you've all moved on to the next
saying. I need to work harder to keep up.
By the way, do most of the group see G of T as a fully Gnostic treatise,
semi-Gnostic, or just plain unclear. I tend to see it as semi-Gnostic (a sort of
mish-mash with a dash of midrash).
Tom
| Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:15 pm, annokig said: We may learn from our parents, but we can't blame them. We are all responsible for our own salvation and will be judged (by the All or yourself?) on a solitary basis.. no if ands or but (S)he did this or that. Ann Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:34 am, I said: IMO this is about the being disturbed in saying 2. ("When they find, they will be disturbed."). |
> "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace > upon the world. They do not know that I have come > to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. |
| IMO the living Christ within is saying "You think you are going to have peace of mind when I am revealed within you? Think again. When you realize me you will be disturbed." |
> For there will be five in a house: > there'll be three against two and two against three, |
| These are ideas, beliefs and dogma in your mind, IMO. |
> father against son and son against father, |
| Old beliefs against new ideas, IMO. |
> and they will stand alone. |
| The truth will seperate from the others, IMO. Ken Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:07 pm, Hi Mate said: Superficially the words speak of peace but there are many deeper meanings that will bring dissent over just what they are. |
gnostic ken
Aug 26, 2012, 10:37:39 AM8/26/12
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18 Feb, 11, Clive said:
yechida wrote on Feb 18, '11 Hi Ken I find this one a bit difficult to understand, especially the second half, the 2 against 3 and father against son bit. I always try to look beyond the physical for an explanation but this one has me stumped. 18 Feb 11, I replied: It can be taken as a comment on what was happening in the Church at that time. Those who took the literalist Christian path were at odds with their relatives who took the Gnostic Christian path. The same thing was happening in Pagan families when one or more family members chose either Christian path. On the other had I see it as talking about competing ideas and emotions within our minds. 19 Feb 11, Clive said: Heres how I'm seeing it now. The Earth is me. The fire, sword and war is the internal conflict I experience. The conflict is between - father ( my vision of how I want to be, my next spiritual step) and son ( an egoistic aspect that is trying to stop me taking that next step forward ). Its Father against Son, in respect to my vision of spirituality trying to pull me free of my egoism. Its Son against Father, in respect to my egoism trying to obscure my vision of spirituality. 20 Feb 11, I said: Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. The internal conflict we all go through personified. 22 Feb 11, Clive said: One thing that comes to mind is, where am I in this picture. I feel an upper force, pulling me and I feel a lower force dragging me back. These forces seem easier to detect than the I. Somewhere between these positive and negative forces (father and son) I exist,being pulled sometimes up and sometimes down, I sometimes wonder if I have any free choice in the matter. Day followed by night continually. All I seem able to do is to experience whats happening to me and to increase my desire to be free of this cycle. 23 Feb 11, I said: Upper and lower, positive and negative, father and son. Interesting. I'll have to think of that a bit. As for free choice. I think we do have free choice, but that's just my opinion. 23 Feb 11 Clive responded to my post dated Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:34 pm:
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