Gospel of Thomas 30
gnostic ken
"Where there are three deities, they are divine.
Where there are two or one, I am with that one."
............................
30 Jesus said,
"Where there are three gods, they are gods.
Where there are two or one, I am with him."
............................
30 Where there are three Gods,
They are Gods.
Where there are two,or one,
I am with Him.
............................
30. Y'shua says:
Where there are three gods, they are «godless.
Where there is only one, I say that» I myself am with him.
«Raise the stone and there you shall find me, cleave the
wood and there am I.» (cp. The Letter of Aristeas 15-16;
cleaving the wood could be seen as a metaphor for the
crucifixion, removing the stone for the resurrection)
........................
(30) Jesus says:
(1) "Where there are three gods, they are gods.
(2) Where there are two or one, I am with him."
..........................
30 Jesus dwells where there are two or more
JESUS said,
"Where there are three divine beings they are divine.
Where there are two or one, I myself dwell with that person."
gnostic ken
I need help with this one my friend.
I've even tried going to sleep while thinking over this saying, hoping that I would dream the answer, I had no joy.
Yours Perplexed.
It's a hard one to understand.
I don't remember what I posted about it in the past. I'll dig them up in a few minutes. But off the top of my head here goes:
Remember the ancients believed in body, soul and spirit. Today some refer to this as body, mind and spirit. I think perhaps this is talking about having a proper balance between the three.
I see the "Jesus" that is dwelling within where there are the (other) two as being the Christ spirit.
IMO.
Ken
I'm with Scott when he said -
"Yes, and that potential awareness is latent inside everyone (waiting to be
revealed/discovered/recognized/appreciated/etc.) . . . sooner or later."
He seems to have caused a bit of a debate about this. "Sooner or later" for me,means in any of our existences.
Ken
gnostic ken
Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:41 pm,
slvanatter@... said:
"Realize that everyone is divine. My nature
is inside you." (Scott Vanatter's
observation...)
"If men do not understand the character of
God, they do not understand
themselves." (Smith's general observation.)
Scott Vanatter
Oct 06, 2006 07:43 PDT, Tom
said:
As long as you define gods out there,
Christ is not with you.
You have your gods and they take up
your mindset and there is no room.
When you get down to the core duality,
the core monad in which all is one
and one is all, then Christ is with you.
When Buddha wanted to become enlightened,
part of his journey involved
giving up the gods, or giving up
relying on the gods for his spiritual path.
Christ is the reward of becoming atheist.
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
=====================================
Oct 06, 2006 09:40 PDT, slvanatter@... said:
Everyone* has the spark of divinity (the Christ
within).
Scott V.
Oct 09, 2006 09:19 PDT, I said:
Hi Scott,
I think in the myths Jesus represents everyhuman
while
the Christ represents that part of everyhuman
which is
aware of its connection with What Is.
Ken
Oct 09, 2006 09:54 PDT, slvanatter@... answered:
Yes, and that potential awareness is latent
inside everyone (waiting to be
revealed/discovered/recognized/appreciated/etc.)
. . . sooner or later.
Oct 09, 2006 12:08 PDT, I answered:
Hummm, do you really think so? Will the
sleepwalkers
really wake up some day? I have known people who
I
believe have lived their whole lives without ever
showing any interest in the voice within.
Ken
Oct 11, 2006 07:36 PDT, Tom said:
is awakening for everyone?
are some SUPPOSED to remain asleep?
if everyone went to school to be a professional,
there would be no one left
to work the drive thrus.
perhaps the herd is never meant to be awakened.
they seem happy enough in their fish bowl lives
we think we have found such a cool thing
with our gnosis and insights and all,
that we think it should be for everyone,
but maybe not.
I took in this stray cat, thinking she wanted
to live in a house, she was miserable and sick.
Last week I got disgusted with her and threw
her out. I went out to feed and visit with her
yesterday afternoon and she is healthier and
happier than ever. She didn't want to go back
in the house. She was purringly grateful that
I had granted her her freedom. What a lesson.
Some things we love and we take in and hold
close. Some things we love and we push out and
set free. Perhaps What Is has pushed out and
set free the herd of sentient beings because
that is their purpose, their true nature.
Not that the door to the Pleroma is locked,
it is just that they would rather roll in the
dirt and go whereever they please.
I dunno...
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
=====================================
Oct 11, 2006 09:31 PDT, I answered Tom,
Hi Tom,
I think that's what the ancients meant when they
talked about the chosen ones or those who are
called.
I don't think they meant it as an elitist thing.
They
were just pointing out that some have an
interest in
Gnosis, in awakening, and some have no interest
at
all. No point in expending energy trying to
awaken
someone who cannot awaken. "Don't recite
poetry to
pigs. It is a waste of time and it irritates the
pigs."
Ken
Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:28 am,
evwheeler@... said:
Where there is the three, There is fullness
(non-movement) Just being. single
complete beyond awareness and I am trying to
describe the ineffable, as feeble
as this is. quantum physics says this is
impossible but, OH well. Where there is
two Jesus is present for the purpose of
awareness is to experience. I equate the
word Jesus with consciousness. So in and with
the three Jesus is the three as
well as ( wisdom) = holy spirit or mother and
mystery father. I hope someone can
relate to this as well. In just being (the
three) The circle is complete.
ed
Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:39 pm, Gnostic Tom said:
Christ is only with you
until you reach a state of completion,
then you are on your own.
G n o s t i c . T o m
http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:27 am, eugnostos2000@...
said:
I try as much as possible to use each logia as a
spring-board for insight, but I am also aware
that the author
had his own agenda. IMO, this logia is just a
disparaging
comment on the emerging Trinitarian thinking.
IMO, there are
several chronological layers to GoT. This logia
is probably
from a later stage of development.
-Steve
Sat Oct 2, 2010 10:22 am , Sam said:
Tripartite God ... figment of Men's mind.
Omnipresence* ... is what gnowing find.
* = whatever icon preferred.
itso,
philo
Mon Oct 4, 2010 7:26 am, Gnostic Tom responded to Sam's post:
so "gods" is a mind trap
and "Trinity" is just another mind
trap
but if you can see the duality (two) of all,
the dance of yin and yang,
or the oneness of all,
you have with you "I am"
Tom
Sat Oct 2, 2010 1:29 pm, Oregon George said:
The Greek version from Oxyrhynchus:
Jesus said, "Where there are three they are
without God. And where there is only one, I say, I am with him. Lift the stone
and there you will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
The closest parallel in Matthew:
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you
ask for, it will be done for you by my father in heaven. For where two or
three come together in my name, there I am with them." Matt.
18:19-20
Before the Coptic translator(s) worked on it,
this saying had an earlier Greek version. It's impossible to say who did
what to what and when, but it still can be seen that the Coptic is quite unlike
the earlier Greek. Gods show up in 30:1 and there is no mention in this Coptic
version of anything or anyone being without God. Then, in 30:2, the
number, two, is inexplicably added to the number, one, and both are declared
worthy of Jesus' presence. Finally, the statement about stone and wood is
turned around and exiled to GTh 77. This is what happens when the Greek
is compared to the Coptic. Again, it seems impossible to say just how
this happened, although I have a few ideas as to why, which I'll get to
later.
I believe, though, that the Greek version shows
signs of tampering, as well, and may not be identical to the earliest possible
version. This is what I suspect this saying said originally:
Original Version:
Jesus said, "Where there are two or three, they are without God. And
where there is only one, I say that I am with him. Lift the stone and
there you will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
This is nearly identical to the Greek version,
except that the phrase, "two or three" replaced the mere
"three". I do this for several reasons. It seems odd to
me that the "two or three" phrase pops up in the Matthew version
(quoted above) but not in the others. Secondly, what is so significant
about the number, three? Does it have some special meaning here. I
don't think so. It could refer to the Trinity, but what would an attack
on the concept of the Trinity have to do with the final stone and wood
statements.? Lastly, when the "two or three" is restored to it,
the meaning becomes accessible and the parts of the saying suddenly fits
together.
This is another instance where Nonduality
explains what Jesus was getting at. Again, Nonduality is the idea that a
world of competing and separate entities cannot exist, that oneness is the only
possible reality. It states that the created never left its source, but
only appears to in our temporarily deluded minds. Restated, this sayings
says, where there is the illusion of duality (two or three) God is not
there. God does not share this illusion and is therefore absent from
it. The more man loses himself in a world of endless complexity and
conflict, the more the idea of God recedes from his mind. But when only
unity is seen (only one) Jesus says that he is with that one. That's
where his whole mind and being is. All of life is there and all of life
is one. Even the creepy crawler under the rock is one with Jesus, as is
the tiny beetle inside the wood.
I suspect that the scribe of the Greek version
dropped the word "two" because suggesting that two are without God
would seem to be an attack on the sanctity of marriage. Just a
guess. He didn't really understand the broader vision behind the
saying. You can see this broader vision, however, throughout the Gospel
of Thomas. The preference of one over two in various forms is quite
evident. In GTh48 he calls this unity "one house." In
GTh72 he insists that he is not "a divider."
In the case of the Coptic scribe whose version
seems so odd, I suspect that he looked at the Greek version that spoke of three
without God and assumed that it was referring to the Trinity. He asked
himself, how could God be without God. Surely this must be a
mistake. So he changed it to read "Where there are three gods, they
are gods" affirming the concept of the Trinity. He then adds that
Jesus, being part of this Trinity, would be united with the Father or the Holy
Spirit. "Where there are two or one, I am with him." He
seems to have forgotten to change this final "him" of the Greek
version to "them."
George
Corvallis, OR
gnostic ken
=====================================
Oct 11, 2006 09:31 PDT, I answered Tom,
Hi Tom,
I think that's what the ancients meant when they talked about the chosen ones or those who are
called. I don't think they meant it as an elitist thing.
They were just pointing out that some have an
interest in Gnosis, in awakening, and some have no interest
at all. No point in expending energy trying to
awaken someone who cannot awaken. "Don't recite
poetry to pigs. It is a waste of time and it irritates the pigs."
Ken
Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:28 am, evwheeler@... said:
Where there is the three, There is fullness
(non-movement) Just being. single complete beyond awareness and I am trying to
describe the ineffable, as feeble as this is. quantum physics says this is
impossible but, OH well. Where there is two Jesus is present for the purpose of
awareness is to experience. I equate the word Jesus with consciousness. So in and with
the three Jesus is the three as well as ( wisdom) = holy spirit or mother and
mystery father. I hope someone can relate to this as well. In just being (the
three) The circle is complete.
ed
Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:39 pm, Gnostic Tom said:
Christ is only with you until you reach a state of completion,then you are on your own.
G n o s t i c . T o m