Gospel of Thomas Saying 6

[gnostic ken]

What does this "Jesus" saying whisper in your ear?

Gospel of Thomas Saying #6

6 His disciples asked him and said to him,
"Do you want us to fast? How should we pray?
Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said,
"Don't lie, and don't do what you hate,
because all things are disclosed before heaven.
After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed,
and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."
..................................................

(6) His disciples questioned him and said to him,
"Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray?
Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"
Jesus said,
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of heaven.
For nothing hidden will not become manifest,
and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."
..................................................

6.)
His disciples asked him:
Do you want us to fast?
How should we pray
and distribute alms?
What rules should we observe in eating?
Jesus replied:
Do not lie.
Do not do what you dislike,
For all is revealed before heaven.
Everything hidden will be revealed.
Nothing covered will remain undiscovered.

...................................................

6. His Disciples ask him,* they say to him:
How do thou want us to fast, and how shall we pray?
And how shall we give alms, and what diet shall we maintain?
Y'shua says:
Do not lie, and do not practice what you hate--
for everything is revealed before the face of the sky.
For there is nothing concealed that shall not be manifest,
and there is nothing covered that shall remain without being exposed.
(*asyndeton, or omission of conjunctions,
characterizing Semitic languages but not Greek or Coptic--
thus signaling an underlying Semitic source-text)
................................................

(06)
(1) His disciples questioned him, (and) they said to him:
" Do you want us to fast?
And how should we pray and give alms?
And what diet should we observe?"
---------------------------------------
(2) Jesus says: "Do not lie. (3) And do not do what you hate.
(4) For everything is disclosed in view of <the truth>.
(5) For there is nothing hidden that will not become revealed.
(6) And there is nothing covered that will remain undisclosed."

[wer1soul]

Hi Ken

 

I'm ignoring the first part of this saying as it belongs to No14, not No6.

 

And then apart from the opening sentences, saying 5 and 6 are near enough the same.

 

5.and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised.]" 

 

6. because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed." . 

 

I think that maybe the copyist got himself a bit mixed up around here.

Clive.

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

Could be, but I see the first part as asking what they should do and the second as the answer which wasn't what they were expecting at all.

Ken

[gnostic ken]

Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:37 pm, Roadhouse Jack said:

A repeating theme in Jung's writings is
the need to learn how to enjoy life. We are so suspicious of
anything that is a real pleasure. Somehow we feel safer or that we
are 'doing our duty' or whatever if we suffer while we do it ! You
would be surprised how often in the analysis of the unconscious this
theme comes up: the individual has to learn how to really ENJOY !
The famous question comes up: What does woman really want ? One
of Arthur's knights falls in love with a woman who is beautiful by
night but the ugliest thing ever by day. He is understandably
distraught..... She tells him he can have her ugly by day and
beautiful by night or the reverse ! He must chose ! He finally
leaves it up to her; she may chose ! Of course this fulfils what a
woman really wants: to be allowed to be herself and not just the
fulfillment of man's needs. She rewards him by being beautiful All
the time ! And the story ends with the wonderful sentence:
THAT NIGHT THEY HAD JOY OUT OF MIND !!
Jack

Wed Oct 1, 2003 7:20 am, I said:

Be honest with yourself and don't do or accept anything if it does
not feel right to you and you will learn all.

Wed Oct 1, 2003 5:37 am, Jenny said:

This one speaks to me of being true to oneself, having integrity, we
cannot escape the fact that everything we are is part of everything we have
ever been and will be.
We divest of our energy and life force in an unnatural and wasteful way when
we do not get to know ourselves and when we pretend to be something we are
not. We have to live within our own resonance and frequency.
Jen

Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:55 pm, P3nn said:

Seems to basically say to become strong in the truth.

MP
Penn

Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:22 pm, coolleouk said:

This is my interpretation

Why do you want to fast? Why do you want to Pray? Is
it because you want to please God? Is it because your
parents tell you to pray? What are your motives in
fasting and praying?What are your real motive to give
something for charity? Look within yourself.The
answers are always within you. You cannot lie
yourself. Seek and you will find.

Woon

Jul 19, 2006 07:52 PDT, I said:

I'm now thinking this has to do with my idea that we
should live life to the fullest in the here and now.
Be what we are where we are right now.

Ken

Jul 19, 2006 09:20 PDT, Gnostic Tom said:

sometimes at work, I'm told to do something
really stupid to a website or program.
I always pause to explain why a different
way would be smarter, but leave them with
the option of me actually giving them exactly
what they are asking for. they always back
down.

=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."

Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:11 pm, gravesab said:

To thine own self be true. The truth shall set you free....
if you've come to grips with the truths in your life there
shouldn't be anything to fear at the end of life
review....(which btw I pictureas something like on Defending
you life)

Just IMHO,

Ann

Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:37 pm, Rosalie said:

Don't do what you hate...at first reading I saw this as meaning, Don't do
anything you don't want to do. Then it occurred to me that it means, Don't do
anything you consider hateful, as in the Golden Rule--don't do anything you
wouldn't want done to you. For what it's worth...

Rosalie

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:51 am, itsallrozee said:

For me its saying better to do nothing and be still, with grace, than
act without love. No matter how well disguised ones 'holy' actions
are, you know your own intentions.
Unto thyself be true!

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:52 am, jo_jo said:

do unto others as you would have them do unto you; the Golden rule.
if you don't follow a certain life path of values then everything
else will be a mess.
-ahm-

Wed Jan 7, 2009 7:38 pm, I said:

In other words:
We don't need no stinking rituals. Just be a good person and look at
what is in front of your eyes.

IMO.

Ken

Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:45 pm, Buddhist Steve said:

To quote Zen master Huang Po: "To practice the Six Perfect
Virtues and various other practices is to thereby advance by
stages. But the Buddha that has always existed is not a Buddha
of stages. Only awaken to the One Mind, and realize that there
is nothing to be attained."
Steve

[wer1soul]

HI Ken

 

Yes, don't give them direct answers let them/us discover for ourselves, true gnosis.

Clive

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

Right. I see each path as individual, so if someone gives a path it will be his path and if the seeker follows it literally the seeker will leave his own path and get lost.

Better to give general suggestions and let the seeker find his own way.

IMO.

Ken 

[gnostic ken]

Sep 30, '10, Clive said:

The first question that pops into the mind when reading this is, why does the Jesus says section seem to have nothing to do with the original question from his disciples.
There appears to scribble mistake as the correct Jesus says is in No14.

14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits. 

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them. 

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you." 

I wonder is this a genuine mistake by the scribe or if there is a reason for it.

 

 

Sep 30, '10, I replied:

Very good point. All these years I have been discussing the GoT I never pick up on this. I have just been concentrating on the answer given. Thank you.

So what do you think? Is the mix up on purpose? Or not?

Ken

 

Sep 30, '10, Clive answered:

Apparently the coptic version of this text, the one we have from the Nag Hamaddi library was copied from a Greek text and there are fragments of the Greek text online, unfortunately Jesus answer to the Disciples question is too fragmented and all we have as a reply is -

Jesus says, -----do not------of truth------blessed is he-----

This seems to be more like the reply in No6 than it does to No14, So if it is a mistake, it seems it was made before the translator wrote the Nag Hammadi version and that he copied the Greek version honestly without seeing a need to place No14 into No6. 

Do you have any thoughts on why 14 appears to be the answer to 6 ?

 

Oct 5, '10, I replied:

It really looks like a mistake, but in "The Jesus Mysteries" Freke and Gandy emphasize that contradictions and strange situations that don't make sense are put in the Jesus stories to make us take a second look to see what is really meant. But to answer your question, I don't see any reason for purposely mixing them up.

 

 

Oct 6, '10, Clive said:

I reckon its a genuine mistake. Parchment was pretty expensive in those days, the Greek version was written on the back of a parchment about allocation of land, and with there being no typex in those days, I guess a mistake had to remain or they would have to throw away their paper and start again from the beginning.
A mystery seems to be why this wasn't corrected when transcribed into Coptic, maybe the author just wanted to remain true to his original copy.

I expect that someone will come up with a good explanation for this.

 

January 13, 2013, at 8:12am, I said:

Some people have said this is a combination of two sayings. 1) Do not lie and 2) the rest of the saying. I don't think so. I think "Do not lie" means the first step is don't do things that will irritate you and distract you from your quest. Next he is saying the original reason for fasting, etc., is to help in your quest for the truth. Don't worry about giving up fasting and special diet and don't worry if you have nothing to give to the poor, keep searching anyway and you will find what you are looking for. IMO.

 

January 14, 2013, at 11:18am, Gnostic Tom said:

What should you diet from? What should you give up? What should you give away? What should you let go of? Let go of what you know is not true. Let go of what you know you can't love.

 

January 18, 2013, at 7:20am Gnostic Tom said:

I keep meeting Buddhist-wanna-bes who equate being Buddhist with sitting, chanting, meeting, ... I think some of the Zen masters had it right, Buddhism is about walking to the store and coming back with the groceries.