Gospel of Thomas Saying 3
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gnostic ken
Jun 25, 2012, 2:46:44 PM6/25/12
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3.) Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
kingdom
is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say
to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather,
the
kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know
yourselves, then
you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of
the
living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in
poverty,
and you are the poverty."
................................
3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
............................
3.)
If your guides claim
that the kingdom is in the sky,
The birds of the sky will be there before you.
If they see it is in the sea,
The fishes of the sea will be there before you.
The kingdom is within you and without you.
When you know yourselves, you will be known.
Then you shall know that you are
Sons of the Living Father.
But if you do not know yourselves
You are in poverty, and you are poverty.
.............................
3.) Y'shua says: If those who would lead you, say to you: Behold,
the Sovereignty is in the skyº!, then the birds of the sky would
precede
you. If they say to you: It is in the sea!, then the fish «of the
sea»
would precede you. But the Sovereignty «of God» is within you and it
is
without you. «Those who come to know themselves shall find it, and
when
you come to know yourselves» then you shall know that you are the
Sons of
the Living Father. Yet if you do not know yourselves then you are
impoverished
and you are poverty.
(Dt 30:11-14, Mal 2:10, Lk 17:21, Plato's Philebus 48c, 63c)
.............................
(03) Jesus says:
(1) "If those who lead you say to you: `Look, the kingdom is in the
sky!'
then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: `It is in the sea,' then the fishes will
precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
(4) "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in
poverty,
and you are poverty."
kingdom
is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say
to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather,
the
kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know
yourselves, then
you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of
the
living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in
poverty,
and you are the poverty."
................................
3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
............................
3.)
If your guides claim
that the kingdom is in the sky,
The birds of the sky will be there before you.
If they see it is in the sea,
The fishes of the sea will be there before you.
The kingdom is within you and without you.
When you know yourselves, you will be known.
Then you shall know that you are
Sons of the Living Father.
But if you do not know yourselves
You are in poverty, and you are poverty.
.............................
3.) Y'shua says: If those who would lead you, say to you: Behold,
the Sovereignty is in the skyº!, then the birds of the sky would
precede
you. If they say to you: It is in the sea!, then the fish «of the
sea»
would precede you. But the Sovereignty «of God» is within you and it
is
without you. «Those who come to know themselves shall find it, and
when
you come to know yourselves» then you shall know that you are the
Sons of
the Living Father. Yet if you do not know yourselves then you are
impoverished
and you are poverty.
(Dt 30:11-14, Mal 2:10, Lk 17:21, Plato's Philebus 48c, 63c)
.............................
(03) Jesus says:
(1) "If those who lead you say to you: `Look, the kingdom is in the
sky!'
then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: `It is in the sea,' then the fishes will
precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
(4) "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in
poverty,
and you are poverty."
wer1soul
Jun 25, 2012, 6:37:16 PM6/25/12
to gnostic-r...@googlegroups.com
What teacher would claim the kingdom is in the sea?
I don't think this saying is talking of anything corporeal,the sky, birds, sea and fish I believe to be words that represented something far deeper.
Something along the lines of -
If we believe the kingdom is far above us in another realm, then our imagination will have dominance over our soul in our search.
If we believe that the kingdom can be found with our thoughts, then our desires will have dominance over our soul in the search.
Its from searching what the self is that will lead us to the truth.
Clive.
gnostic ken
Jun 27, 2012, 11:51:15 AM6/27/12
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Hi Clive,
I think it did have an aspect where it was ridiculing the literalists of the times who were insisting that a physical God was setting in a physical Heaven just above the clouds watching our every move.
I see the universe as having more dimensions than the three we perceive, so I see this as saying the "kingdom" is in us and all around us in other dimensions.
I see the rest as saying don't obsess with any one aspect or we will miss the other aspects.
IMO.
Ken
gnostic ken
Jun 27, 2012, 12:34:54 PM6/27/12
to gnostic-r...@googlegroups.com
Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:09 pm, Gnostic Steve said:
This pokes fun at the hyletic Bishops who presumed to be "leaders"
and yet were incapable of understanding anything on a deeper non-
literal level. Poor Bishops! Alms for the poor! -Steve W.
and yet were incapable of understanding anything on a deeper non-
literal level. Poor Bishops! Alms for the poor! -Steve W.
Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:17 pm, Roadhouse Jack said:
Later another discovery was made at
Oxyrinchus. It wwas just a fragment. a part of which Jung never tires
of quoting. Very similar to the above:
"Jesus said: Who are these that draw us to the kingdom of
heaven ? The fowls of the air, and all beasts that are under the
earth and upon the earth, and the fishes of the sez, these are they
that draw you."
Oxyrynchus Papyrus
Jack
Oxyrinchus. It wwas just a fragment. a part of which Jung never tires
of quoting. Very similar to the above:
"Jesus said: Who are these that draw us to the kingdom of
heaven ? The fowls of the air, and all beasts that are under the
earth and upon the earth, and the fishes of the sez, these are they
that draw you."
Oxyrynchus Papyrus
Jack
Wed Oct 1, 2003 12:50 pm, Roadhouse Jack added:
All these living things lead by
example. They all live by instinct. We may be surprised to learn
that there are instincts for what is 'right on' at the level of the
spirit. They awaken in a vague way at first although given
a 'metanoia' experience or some big initiatory gnosis, they may
spring to life full formed like the Ganges out of the Hymalyan
glaciers. WE MUST TRUST THOSE INSTINCTS ! They come wrapped in
strong feeling. You have probably noticed how supportive George is
of your feelings for what is right for yourself. This is crucial !
Jung speaks of the 'emotional gradient' that must be followed if
transformation is to be achieved. That feeling or emotioon is the
garment of the instinct for home. It is depicted so beautifully
in "The Hymn of the Pearl".
So we need to follow the birds and the fish and other animals.
Jung loves to remind us that they ALWAYS do the will of God simply by
following their instincts.
By the way, my friends tell me WINGED MIGRATION is a wondrous
movie and right on this archetype. Anyone seen it ?
Jack
example. They all live by instinct. We may be surprised to learn
that there are instincts for what is 'right on' at the level of the
spirit. They awaken in a vague way at first although given
a 'metanoia' experience or some big initiatory gnosis, they may
spring to life full formed like the Ganges out of the Hymalyan
glaciers. WE MUST TRUST THOSE INSTINCTS ! They come wrapped in
strong feeling. You have probably noticed how supportive George is
of your feelings for what is right for yourself. This is crucial !
Jung speaks of the 'emotional gradient' that must be followed if
transformation is to be achieved. That feeling or emotioon is the
garment of the instinct for home. It is depicted so beautifully
in "The Hymn of the Pearl".
So we need to follow the birds and the fish and other animals.
Jung loves to remind us that they ALWAYS do the will of God simply by
following their instincts.
By the way, my friends tell me WINGED MIGRATION is a wondrous
movie and right on this archetype. Anyone seen it ?
Jack
Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:11 am, Jenny said:
To me this speaks of seeing truth in nature, just as the sky is natural
abode to the birds and the sea to fish, so is the dwelling place of
GodSpirit within us and when we know ourselves as part of all life and
creation then we can see without a doubt that we are also 'God' just as all
nature is also. I grew up among native Africans. I hold an animist
viewpoint :)
abode to the birds and the sea to fish, so is the dwelling place of
GodSpirit within us and when we know ourselves as part of all life and
creation then we can see without a doubt that we are also 'God' just as all
nature is also. I grew up among native Africans. I hold an animist
viewpoint :)
Wed Oct 1, 2003 7:38 am, Jenny asked:
What is the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of
God? Is there any?
Jenny
God? Is there any?
Jenny
Wed Oct 1, 2003 2:01 pm, Roadhouse Jack replied to Jenny:
* * * * * Jenny-
Well I really don't know. But here is a blockbuster 'answer' .
It is from Jung's Swvwn Sermons for The Dead :
THE SEVENTH SERMON
At night the dead came back again and amidst complaining said:
"One more thingg we must know, because we had forgotten to discuss
it: teach us concerning man !"
- Man is a portal through which one enters from the outer
world of the gods, demons and souls, into the inner world, from
the greater world into the smaller world. Small and insignificant
is man; one leaves him soon behind., and thus one enters once
more into infinite space, into the microcosm, into the inner eternity.
In immeasurable distance there glimmers a solitary star on the
Highest point of heaven. This is the only God of this lonely one.
This is his world, his pleroma, his divinity.
In this world, man is Abraxas, who gives birth to and devours his
own world..
This star is man's God and goal.
It is his guiding divinity; in it man finds repose.
To it goes the long journey of the soul after death; in it shines all
Things which otherwise might keep man from the greater world
With the brilliance of a great light.
To this One, man ought to pray.
Such a prayer increases the light of the star.
Such a prayer builds a bridge over death.
It increases the life of the microcosm; when the outer world
Grows cold, this star still shines.
There is nothing that can separate a man from his own God, if
Man can only turn his gaze away from the fiery spectacle of
Abraxas.
Man here, God there. Weakness and insignificance here, eternal
Creative power there. Here is but darkness and damp cold.
There all is sunlight.
Upon hearing this the dead fell silent, and they rose up like smoke
rises over the fire of the shepherd, who guards his flock by night.
Well I really don't know. But here is a blockbuster 'answer' .
It is from Jung's Swvwn Sermons for The Dead :
THE SEVENTH SERMON
At night the dead came back again and amidst complaining said:
"One more thingg we must know, because we had forgotten to discuss
it: teach us concerning man !"
- Man is a portal through which one enters from the outer
world of the gods, demons and souls, into the inner world, from
the greater world into the smaller world. Small and insignificant
is man; one leaves him soon behind., and thus one enters once
more into infinite space, into the microcosm, into the inner eternity.
In immeasurable distance there glimmers a solitary star on the
Highest point of heaven. This is the only God of this lonely one.
This is his world, his pleroma, his divinity.
In this world, man is Abraxas, who gives birth to and devours his
own world..
This star is man's God and goal.
It is his guiding divinity; in it man finds repose.
To it goes the long journey of the soul after death; in it shines all
Things which otherwise might keep man from the greater world
With the brilliance of a great light.
To this One, man ought to pray.
Such a prayer increases the light of the star.
Such a prayer builds a bridge over death.
It increases the life of the microcosm; when the outer world
Grows cold, this star still shines.
There is nothing that can separate a man from his own God, if
Man can only turn his gaze away from the fiery spectacle of
Abraxas.
Man here, God there. Weakness and insignificance here, eternal
Creative power there. Here is but darkness and damp cold.
There all is sunlight.
Upon hearing this the dead fell silent, and they rose up like smoke
rises over the fire of the shepherd, who guards his flock by night.
Tue Nov 4, 2003 8:13 am, Woon said:
"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
kingdom is in the sky,then the birds of the sky will
precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the
sea, then the fish will precede you.
Explaination:
THe first two sentense means, no many what people
would like to say otherwise, whether it is the
President of United states or the Pope or even Jesus
himself, even they said otherwise, it cannot change
the TRUTH of the universe. If someone want to believe
that water flows from the sea into the mountain, it
doesn't change the universal truth that the water
flows from the mountain to the sea even all the people
on earth believe otherwise. Keep seeking the truth.
Don't rely other people to seek the truth as they
might not say the truth. How do u know it is a truth?
By your own constant verification from the observable
reality?
Note, the contrast is very often used in the gospel of
thomas. Do you know why?
THe first two sentense means, no many what people
would like to say otherwise, whether it is the
President of United states or the Pope or even Jesus
himself, even they said otherwise, it cannot change
the TRUTH of the universe. If someone want to believe
that water flows from the sea into the mountain, it
doesn't change the universal truth that the water
flows from the mountain to the sea even all the people
on earth believe otherwise. Keep seeking the truth.
Don't rely other people to seek the truth as they
might not say the truth. How do u know it is a truth?
By your own constant verification from the observable
reality?
Note, the contrast is very often used in the gospel of
thomas. Do you know why?
Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside
you.
Explanation:
It said that the heaven (or the happiness) is within
your reach. It is through examination of yourself and
environment and people around you.
It said that the heaven (or the happiness) is within
your reach. It is through examination of yourself and
environment and people around you.
"When you know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will understand that you are children of the
living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then
you live in poverty,and you are the poverty."
Explaination:
It encourages to get to know ourselves in deep.Eg,
what actually belong to you? It is your car? Is it
your house? Is it your physical body? What are the
things that cannot be taken from you? Why do you feel
lonely? Why sometimes you feel so angry? Why there are
suffering on your part? What are the purpose of the
existence of the universe. What are the purpose of you
to be in physical body rather than a astral body? What
arre the purpose of reincarnation?......the questions
continue...
If you have not understand yourself and if you have no
wisdom of yourself, then, you utterlly lacking in
everything.BY the way, understanding cannot be undone.
It is one of the things that really belong to you
after achieveing certain understanding of something.
Ligh and Peace
Woon
It encourages to get to know ourselves in deep.Eg,
what actually belong to you? It is your car? Is it
your house? Is it your physical body? What are the
things that cannot be taken from you? Why do you feel
lonely? Why sometimes you feel so angry? Why there are
suffering on your part? What are the purpose of the
existence of the universe. What are the purpose of you
to be in physical body rather than a astral body? What
arre the purpose of reincarnation?......the questions
continue...
If you have not understand yourself and if you have no
wisdom of yourself, then, you utterlly lacking in
everything.BY the way, understanding cannot be undone.
It is one of the things that really belong to you
after achieveing certain understanding of something.
Ligh and Peace
Woon
Jul 11, 2006 09:49 PDT, Gnostic Tom said:
how about...
know that you are the mythical Jesus,
you need to plant what you will one day reap,
you need lots of prayer (connecting to What Is)
and lots of fasting (shorting out the ego),
you need to surround yourself with a
limited number of very close companions
and experience your own transfiguration,
you need to develop a willpower that
can move mountains,
you need to find that wild horse
upon which no one has ever ridden
and tame it as your ride into town,
cleanse the temple of your life,
let your old life go
and reach out for your new potential
as your resurrect into immortality.
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
know that you are the mythical Jesus,
you need to plant what you will one day reap,
you need lots of prayer (connecting to What Is)
and lots of fasting (shorting out the ego),
you need to surround yourself with a
limited number of very close companions
and experience your own transfiguration,
you need to develop a willpower that
can move mountains,
you need to find that wild horse
upon which no one has ever ridden
and tame it as your ride into town,
cleanse the temple of your life,
let your old life go
and reach out for your new potential
as your resurrect into immortality.
=====================================
Thomas Ragland (Gnostic Tom)
"So little time, so much to unlearn."
Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:38 pm, Buddhist Steve said:
Here I would say that the author is speaking to a literalist
Christian audience. "If your leaders say to you" implies an
organized group under recognized authoritative leaders. First, the
idea that the kingdom has an actual, specific, physical location
is lampooned. But the author does not stop at saying that the
kingdom is within. It is both within and without. But "within" and
"without" are relational terms. That is, they only have meaning in
relation to some point of reference. We speak of the mental world
"inside" and the physical world "outside", but What is it that
transcends both inside and outside while yet including them? The
author then asserts that "When you know yourselves, then you will
be known". The injunction to "know thyself" is, of course, an
ancient philosophical motif, but what does it mean to say that "you
will be known"? Known by whom? Paul makes some mention in one of
his letters of knowing and being known. Is there some connection?
At any rate, the author asserts that this will lead to understanding
that "you are children of the living Father". However, if one does
not have this understanding then one will "live in poverty", ie,
lacking or deficiency, and one will be that deficiency. Hence, in
contradistinction to conventional Christian thinking, the key to
the kingdom is not blind allegiance to external authorities but
rather a spiritual quest of inner searching which will ultimately
unite both "inside" and "outside". IMO.
-Steve
Christian audience. "If your leaders say to you" implies an
organized group under recognized authoritative leaders. First, the
idea that the kingdom has an actual, specific, physical location
is lampooned. But the author does not stop at saying that the
kingdom is within. It is both within and without. But "within" and
"without" are relational terms. That is, they only have meaning in
relation to some point of reference. We speak of the mental world
"inside" and the physical world "outside", but What is it that
transcends both inside and outside while yet including them? The
author then asserts that "When you know yourselves, then you will
be known". The injunction to "know thyself" is, of course, an
ancient philosophical motif, but what does it mean to say that "you
will be known"? Known by whom? Paul makes some mention in one of
his letters of knowing and being known. Is there some connection?
At any rate, the author asserts that this will lead to understanding
that "you are children of the living Father". However, if one does
not have this understanding then one will "live in poverty", ie,
lacking or deficiency, and one will be that deficiency. Hence, in
contradistinction to conventional Christian thinking, the key to
the kingdom is not blind allegiance to external authorities but
rather a spiritual quest of inner searching which will ultimately
unite both "inside" and "outside". IMO.
-Steve
Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:46 pm, P3nn said:
> 3 Jesus said,
> "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the
> sky,'
> then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It
> is in the
> sea,'
> then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you
> and it is outside you.
>
You looking for heaven over there? Then you will be last there as it is within
you and everyonelse on the planet.
you and everyonelse on the planet.
> When you know yourselves, then you will be known,
Want others to know who you are? Then know yourself first.
> and you will understand that you are children of the living Father.
Then you'll understand from when you came and your true potential
> But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty,
> and you are the poverty."
>
If not, you'll wont know just how far you can take yourself
MP
P3nn'
MP
P3nn'
That the kingdom of heaven is with in us and around us.....
Maybe he was saying to the literalists....
I didn't put it in the sky, because then you'd be jealous of
the birds
In the sea the literalist would be jealous of the fish.
But the kingdom is with in you,
the only person to blame for not reaching it is yourself.
you can no longer be jealous of others..... so stop blaming
and take a look inside!
It's a Majical Mystery Tour.
With love,
Ann
Maybe he was saying to the literalists....
I didn't put it in the sky, because then you'd be jealous of
the birds
In the sea the literalist would be jealous of the fish.
But the kingdom is with in you,
the only person to blame for not reaching it is yourself.
you can no longer be jealous of others..... so stop blaming
and take a look inside!
It's a Majical Mystery Tour.
With love,
Ann
as above so below..
as within so without,
what is projected,
will be reflected
as within so without,
what is projected,
will be reflected
I like this particular passage... because Jesus says
himself, only you can find the kingdom.. and he cautions
that an intermediary is not necessary and sometimes just
plain wrong.
Ann
himself, only you can find the kingdom.. and he cautions
that an intermediary is not necessary and sometimes just
plain wrong.
Ann
at Jan 3, 2009 8:17 am, I replied:
Hi Ann,
Yes. This might be why the Gospel of Thomas was considered heretical by
the Church. If you make your living being an intermediate you sure
don't want people to know they can go directly to the source.
Ken
Yes. This might be why the Gospel of Thomas was considered heretical by
the Church. If you make your living being an intermediate you sure
don't want people to know they can go directly to the source.
Ken
gnostic ken
Dec 20, 2012, 2:20:57 PM12/20/12
to gnostic-r...@googlegroups.com
Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:11 am, Sam said:
>(1) "If those who lead you say to you: `Look, the kingdom is in
>the sky!' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
>(2) If they say to you: `It is in the sea,' then the fishes will
>precede you.
>(1) "If those who lead you say to you: `Look, the kingdom is in
>the sky!' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
>(2) If they say to you: `It is in the sea,' then the fishes will
>precede you.
Priesthoods... lead gullible-folk astray.
>(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
>(4) "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known,
>and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
>(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves,
>then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty."
Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:43 pm, Kurt said:
Well of Living Water
3 There is a Well of living water
dug by a Prophet whose like has not arisen since Adam
and the water which is in it is from the mouth of God.
Let us eat from the fruit that is in this garden
and let us drink from the waters that are in this well.
There is no need for us to see it in a place we cannot get to.
"It is not in heaven" and it is not in crossing the sea (Deut 30:12-13).
"In the mouth and in the heart" it is done (Deut 30:14).
And woe to us! For we do not do it; it is far from us.
We do not learn it though we came down from heaven!
It was given to us and we believed in it.
It was with them; it was within the Light.
And the glory was around, for it was the word of God.
His hand wrote and the Prophet received it with signs from on high.
And YHWH came down and dwelt with him.
--- Marqah, Memar 6.3
Jesus got a lot of it from the Samaritans.
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