Gospel of Thomas Saying 12

[gnostic ken]

12 The disciples said to Jesus,
"We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them,
"No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just,
for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
..................................................

(12) The disciples said to Jesus,
"We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them,
"Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous,
for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
..................................................

12.)
The disciples said to Jesus:
We know that you are to leave us.
Which of us is to be leader?
Whenever you have gone
Jesus replied:
You will go to James the Just
For whom Heaven and Earth came into being.
...................................................

12. The Disciples say to Y'shua:
We know that thou shall go away from us.
Who is it that shall be Rabbiº over us?
Y'shua says to them:
In the place that you have come, you shall go to Jacob the
Righteousº,
for whose sake the sky and earth come to be.
................................................

(12)
(1) The disciples said to Jesus: "We know that you will depart from
us.
Who (then) will rule [lit., ‘be great’] over us?"
(2) Jesus said to them: "No matter where you came from, you should go
to
James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

[wer1soul]

Hi Ken

I know your a busy guy, my friend, its not a problem when you don't make your posts here, theres plenty else to keep me occupied.

 

I think this saying is a prime example of how they used words of this world amongst themselves to describe spirituality, the meaning of which is now long gone.

There are times when we are on a high spiritualy and there are times when we seem far away from it.

The inner Christ fades in and out of our feelings, when he seems absent who are we to turn to ?

I reckon James (the brother of Christ) is our own desire to attain spirituality.

So, when the inner Christ seems absent and we feel low spiritualy, we look towards our own spiritual desire and cling to that desire until the light shines again.

Clive.

[gnostic ken]

Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:33 am, I said:

This one doesn't say anything to me now.

I think it was most likely written by some who styled themselves the
followers of James. Maybe in response to others saying they got their
authority through Peter.

Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:05 pm, P3nn said:

Basically I see it as meaning that righteousness will be the leader as it
were, i.e. our own spiritual morals.

MP
PEnn

Aug 05, 2006 06:59 PDT , I said:

I am wondering
if this saying was added to the list of sayings during a leadership
dispute. Maybe someone claiming authority handed down from James is
challenging someone who claims authority from Peter?

Ken

[wer1soul]

Hi Ken

Thanks for digging out that post by P3nn.

Its unusual for you to look at these sayings in a literal sense, but you could be right in what you say.

Best wish's.

Clive.

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

P3nn or Penndragon or James from Australia was a frequent poster for the first five years or so of these groups. He has popped in several times since then, but we haven't heard from him for some time now. I hope he is all right.

Ken

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

There is usually a literal point to the sayings, I just tend to focus on the spiritual. I think I came up with a less literal interpretation later. If I didn't I have now and I'll post it at the end.

Ken

[gnostic ken]

Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:39 pm, gravesab said:

I have done a few lookups and references to James the
Just...

which led me to he might be an actual brother of Jesus, or a kinsman.... but the
question I would ask next, is James the Just Alive or Passed On at this point
this was spoken...?

This passage makes me think about.. "for whose sake heaven and earth came into
being"

I can only assume that since it wasn't for the angels, but for humans or Maybe
God that heaven and earth came into being....

As a Catholic we were taught that reason Jesus came into being and matyred
himself... was to open the gates of heaven...

Taking these two lines of thought I come up with the question where is James the
Just (Ya"kov, Jacomus etc) at the time this was uttered.? I am thinking this
might be the key to what this means...bgut I don't have enough knowledge about
James the Just....

Ann

Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:25 pm, P3nn said:

James the Just being Christ's twin and representative of us is saying we will
now longer need the idea of a physical Christ (historical) and will take on
that role ourselves for ourselves as his twin

mp
p3nn

Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:51 am, vang19th said:

In the Nag Hammadi Library there is tree scriptures having James name attached
to the titel of the books: The Apocryph of James, The First Apocalypse of James
and the Second Apocalypse of James.
In the Apocryph of James, the Lords brother is selected of the resurrected
Christ together with Peter for secret teaching, but the focus is James. In both
the First Apocalypse of James and the Second, James is alone with the
resurrected Christ learning about the power of the Achonts Jesus conquered
during his tree days in the underworld.
James must do the same i.e. pass by the inner demons, foiling them in the
light of gnostic knowledge in order to reach the final redemption.
James is the first to whom the secret knowledge of gnosis is revealed, and I
think this is the reason that even the disciples have to go to him, because he
is the one who knows.

Soren

Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:31 am, gortoz77 asked:

Hello Soren ,
My name is Gortoz . I have been on this group for a
short while , and i think it is a very civilized group .
This is the first time i have seen you . You talked about
the secret knowledge of James and how he foiled the
demons with it . I was just wondering , what was that
secret knowledge , or has it been lost in the dawn of
time and never ever to be known ?

From Gort 

Fri Nov 9, 2007 5:21 pm, P3nn answered:

MM Gort
You could say the secret aint a secret except to those who don't see it.
Basically the secret knowledge (hidden knowledge) is already in each of us.
It's kinda like when you're trying to do something and you know you know how
to do it but for the moment it seems to ellude you. Deep within we all know
this knowledge. Just tha we haven't had the realization, that aha moment
regarding it.

MP
p3nn

Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:02 pm, itsallrozee also answered:

the secret knowlegde of james is written, forever and since the
beginning in your heart and everyone's. the only way in is through.
imo of course!

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:21 am, Gnostic Tom said:

the name that is translated as "James" from the
Greek is the same as the name that is translated
as "Jacob" from the Hebrew. Jacob was the
grandson of Abraham that wrestled with God
and was called Israel. In the Greek translation
of the Bible, Jacob became James. They would
have thought of "James" at being the new
Israel, the new founding father for the new
kingdom come, the new Jerusalem. And as the name
translated as "Jesus" from the Greek is the same
as the name that is translated as "Joshua" from
the Hebrew, "Jesus" takes the people into the
promised land of "James" in the same way that
"Joshua" took the people into the promised land
of "Israel". Same story. Same parable.
Obscurred by language differences.

G n o s t i c T o m

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:20 am, itsallrozee added:

 The knowledge isn't lost imo, but hidden. the collective mind has
hardened in preference to the logical and rational, so the ability to
percieve the spiritual nature of life is supressed. the knowledge is
there, all the time, not able to be lost. Its sad. My hearts broken
in this world, because of how few there are that can consciously
share the beauty of it.

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:50 am, gortoz77 replied:

Rozee ... oh cmon Rozee , nobody wants any spiritual nature .
They want sports cars , swimming pools and exotic verandahs
along with the 250 cm digital television , a coffee machine and
the latest hair do , low interest rates and a credit card .
Do you realy believe that if you went to a fancy
restaurant or a night club or K mart and shouted as loud
as you could .
' LISTEN !!! Listen to me everyone , LISTEN to me while
you have the time ! i have the secret to immortality , and
its free ! its free , do you hear me !!! ' You , you over
there , yes you , DO YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER !!! Well do
you ? I have the secret knowledge RIGH HERE ... %$&$&# '
Well you would probably be thrown out so swiftly youd
get gravel rash .
Please dont ever do that will you Rozee . You wouldnt
do that would you ? Better off going on a safari into
the jungles of borneo , and convincing the orangutangs .
They are more receptive , more friendly , and dont have bad
hair days . Im sure you'd be overjoyed with their company :D
Compared with humans that is .

Gort 

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:56 am, itsallrozee answered:

hi gort,
more likely i'd be escorted out, into the waiting white van..

"they're coming to take me away, ha! ha! to the funny farm, where
life is beautiful all day long, yes they're coming to take me
awaaaaaaaaayyeeeee! ha haaa!...lol.

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:46 am, gravesab also replied:

Hi GOrt,

IMO, in my mind I like to think of being human here on earth as one stop on the
journey to actualization...

Ann

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:17 pm, wheelerjeanine also answered:

Gort - - -

IMO, anyone that would shout out such inanities should not judged for their 
State of UN-enlightenment ... We should instead think, "... Bless their hearts .
. . they're limited .." and not fall into their universal 'judgment trap' . . .
After all, didn't someone once say "...Judge not lest ye be judged ..." ??????

Tolerance of others is to be embraced if we want to truly have gnosis ...

Sharing the Joy,
Jeanine

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:03 pm, I said:

The secret knowledge is that which cannot be
described in words. Nobody can tell you what it
is. It is hidden within you. In order to learn it
you must experience it for yourself. "Know
yourself."

IMO.

Ken

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:24 pm, wheelerjeanine replied:

Ken -

Let's go one step further and add that each person must grow in gnosis in
order to understand 'that which is hidden' within themselves. It can not be
intellectualized or verbalized. This 'secret knowledge' must be absorbed as you
(ed.) experience your (ed.) personal journey to gnosis ......

/jrw

Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:39 am, Gnostic Tom said:

Peter (rock) -- south -- earth element
John -- east -- water element
Andrew (man) -- north -- wind element
James -- west -- fire element
Jesus -- center --quintessential ether element

if you can't find your center,
head for the fire

G n o s t i c T o m

Fri Nov 9, 2007 1:05 pm, Rosalie asked:

Does anyone know if James (or Jacob) was Jesus's brother,
either literally or figuratively? If figuratively especially, Jesus' "brother"
could be another aspect of him. Maybe. I'm looking forward to the responses
on this one.

Rosalie

Fri Nov 9, 2007 1:48 pm, Gnostic Tom answered Rosalie:

the reference comes from Josephus,
he was talking about a holy man named James
that seemed to have been a sort of opposition
high priest that was murdered by the Herodian
priesthood.

now what does "brother of Jesus" mean?
same mother and father? or "brother in
the cause" as in all Christians have a
brother named Jesus?

in the book "James the Brother of Jesus"
this one scholar concluded that James was
an historical figure while Jesus was not.
his take on it was that the "Stephen" in
Acts that Paul has killed was none other
than James. is there any history to any
of this? I currently don't know.

G n o s t i c T o m

[wer1soul]

Cheers Ken

You have been busy.

After reading these posts, my thoughts are still more in tune with P3nns.

Without being able to nail this one down, my thoughts are still along the lines of James somehow being our desire for spirituality and Christ being the spirituality we seek, brothers of each other.

Clive.

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

"When you can't find the Christ follow your just desires"? 

Ken

[wer1soul]

Hi Ken

 

When the Christ seems absent the desires can be all over the place, usually self centered pleasure.

What I'm saying is, when the Christ is gone away or that higher ideal we strive for is no longer in our vision and we havn't got that to look to for our guidence,  then we cling to our desire for the light to enter us once again.

Clive.

.

[gnostic ken]

Hi Clive,

Ok. I get what you are saying now. Thanks.

Ken

[gnostic ken]

Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:22 pm, sherylplo said:

The Sophian tradition teaches that Jesus here is saying two things.

One, a Master will chose his successor as teacher and guide of the general
assembly of the elect.

Jesus chose St. James, along with St. Peter, to succeed him in imparting the
outer teachings and initiations. James and Peter were given the authority by
Jesus - receiving themselves the 'ray' of Light Transmission brought into this
world that was intended for the outer teachings and initiations.

Another meaning is more esoteric or hidden -

Jesus is not referring alone to James the Just when saying that Heaven and Earth
came into being for his sake, but speaking of all the holy and righteous ones -
the heavens and earth referring to the matrix of creation through which souls or
consciousness-beings evolve.

Thus the purpose of creation is the development and evoluton of the supernal and
Divine Human being - or the matrix of creation came into being for the sake of
all those who embody something of the Holy Spirit and heavenly soul, whom 'James
the Just' represents.

Shalom.

Sheryl

9 Feb, 2011 I said:

My thinking today 2-9-11 is James the Just represented a mindset, an attitude, that will get you through periods when the Christ within seems to be silent. Call it faith if you want, but faith has the connotation of sticking to something against all evidence, all logic, all commonsense. Put another way, faith to most people means believing against your better judgement. I don't see this as a call to that kind of literalist faith. Rather, as I said at the beginning, it is a mindset, an attitude that the truth is within and eventually the truth will be found.

10 Feb 2011 Clive said:

I like your latest thinking on this, It's simular to my own thoughts but with a twist.
I don't considor Christ as an historical figure, more of a spiritual power thats trying to pull us out of the swamp. I see James, the brother of this power as my own desire to be out of the quagmire.
Its at such times when the light isn't shining in us, when we feel no pull towards a spiritual existance that we need to focus on our own desire for the spiritual, so as to lift ourselves up. IMO.

Tue Feb 9, 2010 12:59 pm, Sam said:

When seeking gist-of-life*... look within,
inner-teacher speaks essence... sans spin.
Life-living*... always opts for win~win.

* = whatever icon preferred.

itso,
sam

[wer1soul]

Hi Ken

 

Thanks for nailing me down on this one.

I guess that what I was trying to say all along is -

There is light and there is our desire for that light, when the light is absent we always have our desire for the light to cling onto.

[gnostic ken]