Gospel of Thomas Saying 114
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gnostic ken
Nov 22, 2012, 9:13:46 AM11/22/12
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What does Saying 114 say/mean to you?
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't
deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male,
so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For
every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
................................
114) Simon Peter said to Him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her
male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you
males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the
Kingdom of Heaven."
............................
114.)
Simon Peter suggested to them:
Mary Magdalene should leave us .
Women are unworthy of the life.
Jesus said:
I shall lead her so as to make her a
man, that she may become a Living Spirit, as
you other men for every woman made manly, shall enter
the Kingdom of Heaven.
.............................
114. Shimon Petros says to them: Let Mariam depart from among us, for women
are not worthy of the life. || Y'shua says: Behold, I shall inspire: her so
that I make her male, in order that she herself shall become a living spirit
like you males. For every female who becomes male shall enter the
Sovereignty of the Heavens. (Gen 3:16, Th 22)
.............................
(114)
(1) Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life."
(2) Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you."
(3) (But I say to you): "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
gnostic ken
Nov 22, 2012, 9:25:47 AM11/22/12
to gnostic-r...@googlegroups.com
Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:25 am, I said:
I think this is just a way of introducing that fact that men and
women are equal.
Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:49 pm, caycekarma said:
On first glance, this is a very chauvinistic~appearing statement, stating that
women are inferior to men. I know that 2,000 years ago, that was the popular
perception in their very patriarchal world, but that is not my impression of the
authors of the Gnostic Gospels. Even though it appears that some of the
Apostles may have been jealous of the relationship that Mary Magdalene shared
with Jesus, I think, for the most part, they were more spiritually advanced
than that, so therefore there must be a more metaphorical meaning to this
saying. Souls (or entities in the spirit world) are androgynous, so saying
"every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven" is
really perplexing to me. I don't even understand how a spiritually~advanced
thinking individual could make this statement, even metaphorically.
Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:21 pm, I answered:
You are right. We know women were equal with men in the Gnostic
churches so at first glance it does seem reactionary coming from a
Gnostic.
However it helps to know that the ancients represented the physical
as female and the spiritual as male in many of their myths. This is
not as sexist as it seems. It comes from Mother Earth and Father
Spirit. The physical (female) is impregnated with the spirit (male)
to produce humans. So this is not talking about human women becoming
men it is talking about humans, men and women, becoming gods.
Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:33 am, I said:
There is negative and positive electricty. These are states of
electricity and have nothing to do with our thinking that negative is
undesirable and positive is desirable.
Likewise when the ancients used female and male to represent the
physical and the spiritual they were talking about states of being,
not the human sexes.
Peter represents the still common view that spiritual is better than
physical and there is no hope for our physical ego.
This is illustrating that the Christ within us will combine our
physical and our spiritual minds when we become enlightened.
Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:18 pm, Scott said:
Pagles book, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
details how this imagery has been misunderstood
and abused by _men_ over the centuries.
Scott V.
Sep 04, 2007 18:11 PDT, Scott said:
"Female" represents our physical senses/our body.
"Male" represents our our mind/our spirit.
These two (our senses/emotions & our mind/rational thought) shall be one in the
gnositc experience. (Male is shorthand for gnosis. NOTE: OUr mind, without our
senses is empty.)
Our "senses" do not go away; they are perfected and become "the Mind of Christ."
Scott
Sep 04, 2007 19:30 PDT, Hi Mate said:
I think it's a version of 'In Christ is neither male nor female' that
reads odd today but not for the times and especially for accepted medical
understanding. Women are incomplete men with inferior powers but the
Christ is the same in either sex, so makes the woman equal to men.
On a personal note, I find this is the route feminism has actually taken:
taking the traditionally masculine as standard and bringing women into
them rather than taking both as equal and bringing men as much towards
feminine as women to masculine.
Sep 04, 2007 19:35 PDT, Scott added:
Mary (our sensing body) does not -- is not to -- leave us. We need it.
Sep 05, 2007 15:40 PDT, Hi Mate replied:
Mary as senses ties in too with her orthodox
reputation as a reformed prostitute - the senses have their place but not
as alienated in opposition to spiritual awareness.
Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:47 pm, P3nn said:
This to me speaks of leaving behind emotionalism in the search for Gnosis.
Emotion was/is seen by many as a female trait whilst logic was/is seen as
male. And this can lead to an intersting view re Sophia and the Demiurge.
Sophia desired to create on her own which is the emotional drive, only to
give birth to a flawed creation, aka the Demiurge. Likewise chasing Gnosis
through desire leads to one really chasing their desire and not Gnosis perse
MP
p3nn
Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:39 am, annokig said:
I think it just means Peter was jealous, ambitious and quite
the mysogynist.
IMO,
Ann
Wed Feb 3, 2010 9:12 am, Gnostic Tom said:
resurrection
ascension
transfiguration
Peter = earth
Mary = sea
life = heat of sun
kingdom of Heaven = air
living spirit = air containing warmth
Jesus = sun
female = embedded in physical life
male = aloof from physical life
the four elements
in this parable,
the roles are a bit different,
Mary is soul, consciousness buried in the sea of thoughts.
Peter is dried out spirit, above the influence of thinking,
the two are aspects of our being,
our Peter (spiritual nature) gets to the point where
we think we can leave our Mary (fluid soul nature) behind.
but Jesus informs us that we have to stay integrated,
we have to let our souls be guided to transcend
the material nature of our physical experience
and join our spiritual nature above the water
in a place dry enough to feel the warmth of the sun.
Gnostic Tom
Thu Feb 4, 2010 9:57 am, I said:
On a literal level I see this as "Jesus" kinda making fun of sexism. He is
saying "If you don't think Mary has value as a female then I (the Christ) will
turn her into a male. What do you think of that?"
Ken
I think this is just a way of introducing that fact that men and
women are equal.
Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:49 pm, caycekarma said:
On first glance, this is a very chauvinistic~appearing statement, stating that
women are inferior to men. I know that 2,000 years ago, that was the popular
perception in their very patriarchal world, but that is not my impression of the
authors of the Gnostic Gospels. Even though it appears that some of the
Apostles may have been jealous of the relationship that Mary Magdalene shared
with Jesus, I think, for the most part, they were more spiritually advanced
than that, so therefore there must be a more metaphorical meaning to this
saying. Souls (or entities in the spirit world) are androgynous, so saying
"every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven" is
really perplexing to me. I don't even understand how a spiritually~advanced
thinking individual could make this statement, even metaphorically.
Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:21 pm, I answered:
You are right. We know women were equal with men in the Gnostic
churches so at first glance it does seem reactionary coming from a
Gnostic.
However it helps to know that the ancients represented the physical
as female and the spiritual as male in many of their myths. This is
not as sexist as it seems. It comes from Mother Earth and Father
Spirit. The physical (female) is impregnated with the spirit (male)
to produce humans. So this is not talking about human women becoming
men it is talking about humans, men and women, becoming gods.
Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:33 am, I said:
There is negative and positive electricty. These are states of
electricity and have nothing to do with our thinking that negative is
undesirable and positive is desirable.
Likewise when the ancients used female and male to represent the
physical and the spiritual they were talking about states of being,
not the human sexes.
Peter represents the still common view that spiritual is better than
physical and there is no hope for our physical ego.
This is illustrating that the Christ within us will combine our
physical and our spiritual minds when we become enlightened.
Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:18 pm, Scott said:
Pagles book, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
details how this imagery has been misunderstood
and abused by _men_ over the centuries.
Scott V.
Sep 04, 2007 18:11 PDT, Scott said:
"Female" represents our physical senses/our body.
"Male" represents our our mind/our spirit.
These two (our senses/emotions & our mind/rational thought) shall be one in the
gnositc experience. (Male is shorthand for gnosis. NOTE: OUr mind, without our
senses is empty.)
Our "senses" do not go away; they are perfected and become "the Mind of Christ."
Scott
Sep 04, 2007 19:30 PDT, Hi Mate said:
I think it's a version of 'In Christ is neither male nor female' that
reads odd today but not for the times and especially for accepted medical
understanding. Women are incomplete men with inferior powers but the
Christ is the same in either sex, so makes the woman equal to men.
On a personal note, I find this is the route feminism has actually taken:
taking the traditionally masculine as standard and bringing women into
them rather than taking both as equal and bringing men as much towards
feminine as women to masculine.
Sep 04, 2007 19:35 PDT, Scott added:
Mary (our sensing body) does not -- is not to -- leave us. We need it.
Sep 05, 2007 15:40 PDT, Hi Mate replied:
Mary as senses ties in too with her orthodox
reputation as a reformed prostitute - the senses have their place but not
as alienated in opposition to spiritual awareness.
Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:47 pm, P3nn said:
This to me speaks of leaving behind emotionalism in the search for Gnosis.
Emotion was/is seen by many as a female trait whilst logic was/is seen as
male. And this can lead to an intersting view re Sophia and the Demiurge.
Sophia desired to create on her own which is the emotional drive, only to
give birth to a flawed creation, aka the Demiurge. Likewise chasing Gnosis
through desire leads to one really chasing their desire and not Gnosis perse
MP
p3nn
Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:39 am, annokig said:
I think it just means Peter was jealous, ambitious and quite
the mysogynist.
IMO,
Ann
Wed Feb 3, 2010 9:12 am, Gnostic Tom said:
resurrection
ascension
transfiguration
Peter = earth
Mary = sea
life = heat of sun
kingdom of Heaven = air
living spirit = air containing warmth
Jesus = sun
female = embedded in physical life
male = aloof from physical life
the four elements
in this parable,
the roles are a bit different,
Mary is soul, consciousness buried in the sea of thoughts.
Peter is dried out spirit, above the influence of thinking,
the two are aspects of our being,
our Peter (spiritual nature) gets to the point where
we think we can leave our Mary (fluid soul nature) behind.
but Jesus informs us that we have to stay integrated,
we have to let our souls be guided to transcend
the material nature of our physical experience
and join our spiritual nature above the water
in a place dry enough to feel the warmth of the sun.
Gnostic Tom
Thu Feb 4, 2010 9:57 am, I said:
On a literal level I see this as "Jesus" kinda making fun of sexism. He is
saying "If you don't think Mary has value as a female then I (the Christ) will
turn her into a male. What do you think of that?"
Ken
6 Jun., 12, Clive said:
I think of our soul as female, that is, at our root we are a desire to receive pleasure.
If we change our essence from one of wanting to recieve pleasure into one of wanting to give pleasure this I believe is making the female male.
Changing our human nature into one that is equivolent with the creators nature.
If we change our essence from one of wanting to recieve pleasure into one of wanting to give pleasure this I believe is making the female male.
Changing our human nature into one that is equivolent with the creators nature.
Clive
7 Jun., I replied:
Several levels to this one.
First off it is pretty much established when this was written spirit was considered to be female and the material body was considered to be male. Your take would still work. Take the spirit into the physical and turn it into material, but retain the essence of spirit which in your take would be a pleasure giver instead of wanting to receive pleasure.
Now on the level of church politics of the time this could have been a Gnostic dig at the literalist church. Peter represented the literalists who claimed he founded the church. Mary represented the Gnostics who outwardly followed the rituals of the church. This little saying illustrates how Peter and the literalists just didn't understand the message of the Christ and if it was necessary for the Gnostics to pretend to be like the literalists in order to survive then that would certainly have been okay with the Christ. "Every woman (Gnostic) who makes herself male (appear to be a literalist) will enter the kingdom of heaven (is still able to access the kingdom, no problem).
Then of course it illustrates how the Gnostics accepted women as equals and the literalist church did not.
IMO.
Ken
First off it is pretty much established when this was written spirit was considered to be female and the material body was considered to be male. Your take would still work. Take the spirit into the physical and turn it into material, but retain the essence of spirit which in your take would be a pleasure giver instead of wanting to receive pleasure.
Now on the level of church politics of the time this could have been a Gnostic dig at the literalist church. Peter represented the literalists who claimed he founded the church. Mary represented the Gnostics who outwardly followed the rituals of the church. This little saying illustrates how Peter and the literalists just didn't understand the message of the Christ and if it was necessary for the Gnostics to pretend to be like the literalists in order to survive then that would certainly have been okay with the Christ. "Every woman (Gnostic) who makes herself male (appear to be a literalist) will enter the kingdom of heaven (is still able to access the kingdom, no problem).
Then of course it illustrates how the Gnostics accepted women as equals and the literalist church did not.
IMO.
Ken
7 Jun., 12, Clive said:
Hi Ken
I guess we've reached the end.
Thanks for sticking with me through this.
All the best.
Clive.
I guess we've reached the end.
Thanks for sticking with me through this.
All the best.
Clive.
7 Jun., 12, I asked Clive:
May I repost some of your comments? I would of course edit out the personal stuff like our conversations on gout and such.
Ken
Ken
9 Jun., 12, Clive answered:
Hi Ken
You may edit anything I have said as you see fit and use it wherever.
You may edit anything I have said as you see fit and use it wherever.
9 Jun., 12, Clive added:
In several places throughout the NHL Maleness is described as mind/reasoning.
The soul is spoken about as being female.
I go along with Scott, almost.
Our animal soul, ego, desires, our femaleness must be perfected, not with our thoughts, they are just a by product of our desires but with a higher spiritual mind, our Christ conciousness.
I see this as transferring what we hold in the left hand over to the right, then instead of thinking how can I benefit, we think how can I benefit others.
Once the female has become male our thoughts change from concern for me to concern for the other.
IMHO.
Clive.
The soul is spoken about as being female.
I go along with Scott, almost.
Our animal soul, ego, desires, our femaleness must be perfected, not with our thoughts, they are just a by product of our desires but with a higher spiritual mind, our Christ conciousness.
I see this as transferring what we hold in the left hand over to the right, then instead of thinking how can I benefit, we think how can I benefit others.
Once the female has become male our thoughts change from concern for me to concern for the other.
IMHO.
Clive.
11 Jun., 12, I said:
Thank you Clive,
I'm glad you agreed because your comments really advance my understanding of the sayings and I'm sure they will be of help to others.
Ken
I'm glad you agreed because your comments really advance my understanding of the sayings and I'm sure they will be of help to others.
Ken
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