[GMCnet] Winterizing Options

[Fred Hudspeth]

In preparing for my first winter in southcentral Alaska, I was very thorough
about preparing my motorhome (then a Ford "460" powered Coachmen product) for cold storage. An "old sourdough" who lived nearby was visiting when I was doing my prep. He politely volunteered that my way was an overkill and described his and other veteran residents' practice. I listened but was apprehensive about "their way" and did it my comprehensive way the first winter(i.e., use RFV antifreeze, remove batteries to warm storage, periodic restarts/warmups, etc.). "My way" was a real hassle in that cold. The next winter, I "did it their way" and have done so since. The motorhome I use in summers and leave in Alaska is a '82 GM "454" powered Airstream. It has been there 22 years. In all of that time, there has been no discernible change in compression, makeup oil, fuel consumption, etc. using the "old sourdough's" winterization practice. I also did this with no adverse effects on the GMCMh for about eight years before retiring from Alaska ('was there as a resident over a span of 20 ye
ars).

The practice (about 30 minutes): Use no RV antifreeze. Open all drains and faucets, including water heater (open relief valve at tank to aid draining). Using a wet-dry vacuum cleaner, connect the vacuum port to all faucets and tubing drains individually (removes remaining water from water tubing that did not gravity drain). I use a small 1 BHP wet-dry shop vacuum cleaner for this. Leave all drains open for winter storage. Last, I vacuum the water out of the (1) "P" trap at the galley sink, shower and lavatory (2) at the house water pump/connecting tubing and (3) commode/connecting tubing. I usually get about a gallon of water after the gravity drain. Disconnect motorhome electrical cable from gen set, if connected. Start gen set, disconnect 12VDC power to fuel pump and run gen set until it dies from fuel starvation. Enroute to storage(uncovered, general aviation airport), fill motorhome (and car) fuel tanks, adding Stabil storage fuel stabilizer. At storage, remove cable from the po
sitive post of all batteries. Record voltage for comparison to voltage at time of next start-up. Prepare coach for snow load (i.e., remove radio antenna, stand windshield wipers vertically, etc. to avoid snow glaciation damage during spring thaw).

For start-up, note battery voltage. For wet cell batteries at full charge when the motorhome was stored, the voltage loss over 9-10 months will usually be not more than 0.25 volts (info - for wet cell batteries in good condition and stored at full charge, freezing will not occur until the temp reaches about -78F. The record low in Anchorage is -38F. Most winter spikes do not go below -30F). Connect all battery cables. Start gen set first (leave gen set running to charge batteries while starting motorhome engine). For carbureted engine, pull coil wire from distributor to "motor" engine with starter for 10 seconds (for a little oil circulation). Reconnect coil wire. Remove air cleaner and spray starting fluid into carburetor venturi. Immediately replace air cleaner and start engine. 'Avoids long start time and risk of discharging battery. For fuel injected motorhome engines, start in usual manner; there will be no pre-oiling but unavoidable without disabling engine ignition or fuel d
elivery systems. After starting gen set and motorhome engines, proceed to close all drains and faucets in preparation for filling motorhome water tank. Fill water tank, turn water pump on and check carefully for leaks.

JWID...

Fred Hudspeth

1978 Royale (TZE 368V101335) - Tyler, TX
1982 Airstream Excella (motorhome) - Cooper Landing, Alaska








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[Keith V]

I tried using the pressure relief valve to help drain the water heater. It failed and wouldn't hold pressure after 2 times
They are not meant to be used like that.
Not fun to replace.

I drain everything, I pull the anode out of the water heater to drain it ( make sure you depressurize the system first! ) Pump the pink crap through everything and dump it into the drains.
Leave the coach plugged in and the battery charger on.
Also check the antifreeze

I wouldn't mess with the genset, I doubt there's any fuel in the carb unless you have used it recently

But I live in Minnesota and -20 is not uncommon, it's has to be done right
________________________________
From: Fred Hudspeth <fbh...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 4:20 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: [GMCnet] Winterizing Options

[Fred Hudspeth]

Re " I tried using the pressure relief valve to help drain the water heater. It failed and wouldn't hold pressure after 2 times They are not meant to be used like that."

A common practice in Alaska - but owners close/re-seat the valve when water stops draining... 'Have not experienced leakage when repressuring tank in late spring/early summer, with proper air pocket.


Re "Leave the coach plugged in and the battery charger on...

Few Alaska aircraft and RV/boat storage locations provide 120/240 VAC. Owners of that equipment manage wet cell (and AGM) batteries as described.

Re "I wouldn't mess with the genset, I doubt there's any fuel in the carb unless you have used it recently". 'Necessary action in that climate as rate of vaporization is very low late August - early May. 'Heavy ends of fuel tend to form "gum" in carb bowl and around needle valve and has to be dissolved with alcohol before re-start. 'Experienced that in first year of long winter storage in Alaska...('should have listened to the "sourdoughs" as they advised me to do that...)

'Necessary to clear snow from flat roof RV equipment as snow load occasionally approaches 40lbs/sq. ft. ('design requirement for residential construction at 62N Latitude). Although the usual snowfall is about 7 ft., at about 9 1/2 ft. the design load limit is reached, depending on moisture content of the snow. There is usually little thawing from late Oct.-mid April at that latitude. As I didn't know the snow load design, I cleared snow on my Coachmen RV at about 3'. 'Not necessary on GMCMh and Airstream...

I cite this Alaska experience at there are L48 locations that have winter conditions similar to 62N. Latitude but usually for a much shorter duration. So, if it helps...

Fred

Fred Hudspeth
1978 Royale (TZE 368V101335) - Tyler, TX
1982 Airstream Excella (motorhome) - Cooper Landing, Alaska

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:41:59 +0000
From: Keith V <my4...@hotmail.com>
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Winterizing Options
To: "gmc...@list.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
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I tried using the pressure relief valve to help drain the water heater. It failed and wouldn't hold pressure after 2 times They are not meant to be used like that.
Not fun to replace.

I drain everything, I pull the anode out of the water heater to drain it ( make sure you depressurize the system first! ) Pump the pink crap through everything and dump it into the drains.
Leave the coach plugged in and the battery charger on.
Also check the antifreeze

I wouldn't mess with the genset, I doubt there's any fuel in the carb unless you have used it recently

But I live in Minnesota and -20 is not uncommon, it's has to be done right

[Mark]

I always just used one of the adapters to hook up my air compressor to the water system, and blew the water out of all the faucets / showerhead /
toilet. I never really liked the idea of drinking the residue from the "pink stuff" come spring. I'm not really certain how necessary winterizing
even is here in Arizona (in the Phoenix east valley), where it seldom dips below freezing, and then usually only for an hour or two. I suppose I
could just leave a small space heater turned to minimum heat connected (my new storage spot has a plug-in).
--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

[James Hupy]

I have owned my GMC Royale 26' coach since September, 2008. I have NEVER
drank any water from the coach potable water system, and neither has my
dog. I do not believe that you can successfully sanitize that tank to
eliminate all the bugs that might exist there. We have always carried
bottled water for drinking and coffee water. But that is just how we do. It
is still a free country, and you have that freedom to choose to drink
possibly contaminated water or not. When we backbacked, our motto was
"Don't eat yellow snow" We just drain our system down, and keep a 1500 watt
space heater running inside the coach with all the cabinet doors open for
air circulation. Having had to replace a cracked and broken hot water
heater once, we always drain that as well. It gets down to freezing here
quite often, as a matter of fact, I had to scrape ice off my windshield
Monday morning.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Ken Henderson]

I guess the opposite policies should be promoted too, Jim: For the 23
years we've owned "Tweety Bird", I've always drunk the on-board water. SHE
insists on drinking bottled water, but does that at home too, over my
strenuous objections to the whole bottled water fad. I've never had any
side effects from the water (but then the GA/ALA swamp water never bothered
me much either.) :-) I do try to sterilize the system every year or so,
but I'm not fanatic about it.

As for freeze protection: After the last trip of the year, I'll open the
water heater and H2O tank drains. On the rare nights when our temperature
drops into the 20's, I'll leave an electric heater running on "Low", with
all the cabinet doors open. Then go back in the house and try to find
where it's warm enough to tempt me to move! Never yet had any plumbing
damage.

This isn't a recommendation; merely a report of different techniques -- in
a MILD climate..

Ken H.

[twll...@gmail.com]

Just installed a by-pass on the hot water tank and a valve on the water pump to pump antifreeze directly into the lines and toilet and not into the
tanks. Found the drain valve for the main tank, opened it, checked the draining then closed it again. All OK.

Drained hot water tank, installed by-pass then refilled tank to check operation and leaks. Again, all good.

Not too cold here yet (pissing rain mostly) so hope to get at least one more trip in before the weather gets cold.

I'm all set now, just have to buy some pink stuff.

Larry
--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 Palm Beach 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. New Atwood fridge, water heater & furnace. New SS exhaust system,
6000w Onan, Iota Converter, R134A A/C, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses

[Ken Burton]

You have Yours set up you just like mine. Two things to think about when doing yours. I would blow out the lines before adding the pink stuff. Just
pumping pink stuff will not get you to everywhere you need to fill. Get an adapter and connect it to the garden hose connection inside the shore
power box (left outside of the coach) Hook up compressed air there to the adapter screwed into your city water connection. With the compressed air
running, You can open each faucet until it stops blowing water out.

DO not forget about the shower.

If you just pump pink stuff in, it will not make up it to the city water connection and also to the shower hose.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[twll...@gmail.com]

Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 28 October 2021 14:44

> You have Yours set up you just like mine. Two things to think about when doing yours. I would blow out the lines before adding the pink stuff.
> Just pumping pink stuff will not get you to everywhere you need to fill. Get an adapter and connect it to the garden hose connection inside the
> shore power box (left outside of the coach) Hook up compressed air there to the adapter screwed into your city water connection. With the
> compressed air running, You can open each faucet until it stops blowing water out.
>
> DO not forget about the shower.
>
> If you just pump pink stuff in, it will not make up it to the city water connection and also to the shower hose.

Hey thanks for the tips Ken, I already picked up a brass adapter with an airline connection for the city line. Got a compressor lined up and we're
thinking 20lbs pressure, sound ok? - have to say though I've never had the city water hooked up, live in a 1st floor apartment and ol'leaky is parked
in a field -plus only boondock, never hookup ...

I was thinking of opening the flush on the toilet with a weight instead of my foot when we run the air through, would that work to drain the toilet
pre-pinking?

Larry
--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 Palm Beach 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. New Atwood fridge, water heater & furnace. New SS exhaust system,
6000w Onan, Iota Converter, R134A A/C, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses

[Ken Burton]

I usually set my compressor to around 50. That is where my home water pressure is. Then I go around and open each sink and toilet valve one at a
time and let it run until no more water comes out. Then I move on to the next one. On the toilet, I just step in the the flush valve it only takes
10 or 15 seconds for it to run dry.

One other thing. There is a floor drain in the shower that has a gas trap in it that is full of water. I always save some pink stuff and pour it
directly in the drain after I have finished every thing else.

I can do it all with one gallon of pink stuff but I usually over everything and use 2 gallons.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Billy Massey]

I run my air pressure wide open. What is needed is lots of volumn to get
all the residual moisture out and away from any fittings.
I leave only one outlet open at a time. Apply air, as that outlet quits
blowing moisture, shut it and open another immediately. I do this until
there isn't a trace of moisture from any outlet. That served me very well
for several years.
Now I just blow a little and then add pink through the pump to all outlets,
add in floor drain, done. Easy, peasy.

bdub

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 5:58 PM Ken Burton <n9...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I usually set my compressor to around 50. That is where my home water
> pressure is. Then I go around and open each sink and toilet valve one at a
> time and let it run until no more water comes out. Then I move on to the
> next one. On the toilet, I just step in the the flush valve it only takes
> 10 or 15 seconds for it to run dry.
>
> One other thing. There is a floor drain in the shower that has a gas trap
> in it that is full of water. I always save some pink stuff and pour it
> directly in the drain after I have finished every thing else.
>
> I can do it all with one gallon of pink stuff but I usually over
> everything and use 2 gallons.
>

[Eric Roell]

Great tips guys!  I do my cottage in a very similar fashion, including the drains, but did not think about the coaches floor drain.
What about mice?  This is our first year with the GMC and we are storing it in a friend's barn in Central Ontario.  We have been told to put Downy sheets throughout the coach.  Apparently mice hate the smell.
Eric Roell, Aurora, Ontario76 Glenbrook "Safari" 76,000 miles,Alcoa, Continental Kit, Fender Flares, Stainless Exhaust, Macerator, Ragusa Step

[Matt Colie]

Billy Massey wrote on Thu, 28 October 2021 20:56

> I run my air pressure wide open. What is needed is lots of volumn to get all the residual moisture out and away from any fittings.
> I leave only one outlet open at a time. Apply air, as that outlet quits blowing moisture, shut it and open another immediately. I do this until
> there isn't a trace of moisture from any outlet. That served me very well for several years.
> Now I just blow a little and then add pink through the pump to all outlets,
> add in floor drain, done. Easy, peasy.
>
> bdub

Billy's is basically good, but I should caution those that do not still have the original copper of the early coaches. My shop air pressure is
150psi, and that can exceed what plastic plumbing can handle. So, if you have plastic, think about using a regulator in the set up. I do use one
because the time I put shop air pressure on the system it was really violent.

Another note, the relief valve on most water heaters is close to the top. Too high for a good drain down. All the RV/Marine water heaters I have
seen do have a drain that is supposed to be low enough to prevent freeze damage.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Billy Massey]

Read it again, Matt. As I stated, there is always at least one outlet open
at all times. This is to prevent rupturing any of my plastic lines or
fittings. It works very well and damages nothing. My shop air is also
150psi but my compressor cannot keep up with the volume, so I pause the
process midstream.
Only freeze damaged part I ever had to replace was a plastic fitting when I
did regulator pressure.

Re your comment about the pop-off valve in the water heater; that is
opened only to let air in to displace the water as it drains out the bottom
of the tank.

bdub


On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 9:34 AM Matt Colie <matt7...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... snip ...

>
My shop air pressure is 150psi, and that can exceed what plastic plumbing
> can handle. So, if you have plastic, think about using a regulator in the
> set up. I do use one because the time I put shop air pressure on the
> system it was really violent.
>
> Another note, the relief valve on most water heaters is close to the top.
> Too high for a good drain down. All the RV/Marine water heaters I
> have seen do have a drain that is supposed to be low enough to prevent
> freeze damage.
>
>

[Richard]

Billy Massey wrote on Thu, 28 October 2021 20:56

> I run my air pressure wide open. What is needed is lots of volumn to get all the residual moisture out and away from any fittings.

Billy, I'm not sure I follow, please clarify what you mean by air pressure wide open.

Blowing water out of an RV's plumbing is the same as blowing water out of a lawn irrigation system in that you want high volume and pressure low
enough that the system won't be damaged. The more volume (CFM) you can push at a lower PSI the better. 50 PSI or less at 20 CFM or better is about
optimal. If you're going to be filling the system with antifreeze it's not necessary to get 100% of the water out of the system.

Richard

--
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemonte waiting its turn

[Billy Massey]

You're right, Richard. That worked well for me for a few years until I
installed the water heater bypass and pump converter. Only a little spurt
of air is all that is needed now.
With one outlet open at all times, pressure is negligible.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 11:06 AM Richard <birch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Billy Massey wrote on Thu, 28 October 2021 20:56
> > I run my air pressure wide open. What is needed is lots of volumn to
> get all the residual moisture out and away from any fittings.
>
> Billy, I'm not sure I follow, please clarify what you mean by air pressure
> wide open.
>
> Blowing water out of an RV's plumbing is the same as blowing water out of
> a lawn irrigation system in that you want high volume and pressure low
> enough that the system won't be damaged. The more volume (CFM) you can
> push at a lower PSI the better. 50 PSI or less at 20 CFM or better is about
> optimal. If you're going to be filling the system with antifreeze it's
> not necessary to get 100% of the water out of the system.
>
>

[Matt Colie]

Billy Massey wrote on Fri, 29 October 2021 11:17

> Read it again, Matt. As I stated, there is always at least one outlet open at all times. This is to prevent rupturing any of my plastic lines or
> fittings. It works very well and damages nothing. My shop air is also 150psi but my compressor cannot keep up with the volume, so I pause the
> process midstream.
> Only freeze damaged part I ever had to replace was a plastic fitting when I did regulator pressure.
>
> Re your comment about the pop-off valve in the water heater; that is opened only to let air in to displace the water as it drains out the bottom
> of the tank.
>
> bdub

Bdub,

I guess your compressor is a smaller one. When I tried clearing the coach without a regulator in the supply, between turning off the last tap in the
head (bathroom) and getting around the corner to the galley (kitchen) the line pressure was up over 130psi and the water came out of the galley tap
with extreme violence. (Read - turned the corner in the sink and was all over the dinette and me before I could stop it.) I thought a regulator at
the city water was easier than clearing the head and leaving a valve open, going out to the galley, opening a tap there then going back into the head
to close the open tap and then get back out to the galley to mop up the water that came out fast once the tap in the head was shut.

When I am clearing the system, I have 50~60psi on it all the time, so I use that to drain the water heater as well and do not need the TPS valve as a
vent. Besides, it drains faster at 50psi. And, with pressure in the tank, it can blow out more than I get with a static drain. I have had more than
a few of the TPS valves fail to re-seat and so the client got to complain at me most of the next season. On boats, they don't drip overboard, the
leak has to get pumped out of the bilge.

That reminds me, I didn't have the pink stuff handy and still have not done the traps.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Jon Roche]

I am from MN. Antifreeze is the only thing I truly trust.

keep in mind some toilets, dometic 310 for example, blowing them out will not work.


I just winterized my coach, and it took 2 gallons of RV antifreeze and 15 minutes of my time. 1 gallon of that was dedicated to making sure the
macerator was pumping good pink. It just takes a winterization kit on the pump, and a bypass for the water heater.


Ken is correct about the city water connection, but in my case the check valve has been removed so I just bleed out the antifreeze at the city water
connection by pressing in the center valve on the thing. the other coach I winterized this weekend, had the check valve, so I have a hand pump for
the city waterconnection and that only took me a moment.


The second coach I winterized this past weekend did not have a waterheater bypass or a pump winterizer. so I first tried to blow out the lines. I
have plenty of air... but seemed if you turned the air back on after you thought it was blowing dry, it would still spray some water. After
messing around for 5-10 minutes, I just made sure the hot water was blown out well, and I ended up pumping RV antifreeze in with the hand pump
through the city water connection.

per Fred's comment about the water heater- I don't see how you can drain a waterheater with the pressure release. the waterheater is just a big
open tank from what i can tell, and the only way to get the water out of it is the lower drain. the pressure release would only drain the top 1/3?
and if you don't have a bypass- you need to blow out the hot water system, or you will be using 5+ gallons of pink stuff. the "in" on the heater
is a low spot, the "out" is up high.



as for Mice- there is no answer. everybody will tell you they have an answer and I can find photos on my phone of my coach to show mice eat dryer
sheets, walk over critter crumbs and don't care about my victor ultrasonic repellent.

put out dryer sheets, seal all openings, but if you are storing a coach, set some traps! traps is the only final defense against mice, and they
will also indicate how well your other deterrents are working or if you need to add more traps! or start pulling panels to clean up nests!


I also have no idea on how they can get in. I have been all over my coach and had my coach apart and have no idea how they get in, but they usually
someone do in the spring and fall when temps change. had no mice in trap this year, until just this past week, had one.

part of my pre-trip/post trip is always setting up a couple mice traps, just in case.


--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Thomas Phipps]

I used one of Harbor Freight's vacuum pumps to vacuum drain my former GMC's (both Avions) water system. Attached a fitting to the lower port on the
hot water heater, attached air compressor to vacuum pump and applied power. Did a great job pulling all the water out of the system, using negative
pressure. No outside force on any fitting, other than air flow from the outside.
Used during many years of outside Winter storage in Virginia. Not much need, here in Lower Alabama.
--
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG