[GMCnet] High torque starter?

[fred veenschoten]

Has anyone tried the new high torque starters? I've had an ongoing problem cranking when the engine is hot.
thanks,

--
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl

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[Jon Roche]

Have seen some owners put them in and are happy.

However before spending that money, have a shop rebuild yours, and make sure you have good battery cables and battery to it.

Your symptoms seem to say that the starter needs a refresh, or your battery cables are stock location from battery to boost solenoid then to starter.


Easy to split the battery positive cable and have a heavy awg
Direct from battery post to starter. The. Run a cable from battery to boost solenoid.


--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[John R. Lebetski]

I''d say the factory starters were high torque. Mine cranks faster than any other vehicle I own and is 100% stock.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Matt Colie]

fred v wrote on Thu, 16 November 2017 08:54

> Has anyone tried the new high torque starters? I've had an ongoing problem cranking when the engine is hot.
> thanks,

Fred,

That 10MT starter is a brute, but its big weakness is that it just doesn't complain when it should. When mine finally quit, it was way past due for
an overhaul. Up until then, I was thinking I maybe had a bad connection somewhere. Well, I did. The thing was probably running on 2 of the four
brushes for the prior year.

After you have cleaned and checked all the cables and battery terminals. (The ground half too.) If she isn't cranking smartly, take the starter down,
stand it on its nose (the old Bushes cans work great, but new ones not so) in a 3"DWV coupling and take the three nuts that hold the back and field to
the nose. You want to take all three off because with the field loose, if anything happens, the solenoid cover will get broken. (BTDT) Then you can
either find a friend with a lathe or a rebulder because the brush holders will have been dragging on the commutator long enough that it needs some
attention.

I have heard one 403 with a "High Torque" starter crank up. I was not impressed. With the now good starter, my 455 cranks better.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[James Hupy]

I have a local rebuilder who does starters and alternators for me. On the
smaller frame alternators, he upgrades them from 66 amps to 80 amps,
replaces the bearings, and thread inserts on the aluminum case where the
tensioning brackets bolt in. On the starters, all American made solenoid
parts, field windings, new bushings and brushes. I usually do 6 starters at
a time, 3 standard and 3 high torque.
IF YOUR ENGINE IS STOCK, THERE IS NO NEED FOR A HIGH TORQUE STARTER,
but, if you have a high compression, long cam timed engine, you might. Most
of the time, it is batteries and cables that cause slow cranking when hot.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Keith V]

I have a high torque mini starter on my small block 427 Vette, it spins it really nice. Almost as nice as the stock starter on my GMC.

1. Check/Shorten the battery cables.
2. Rebuild the stock starter.

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of James Hupy <james...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:35:09 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] High torque starter?

[Jim Kanomata]

We have sold over 50 of the HI Torque starters.
I agree that when you make sure connections are all clean and tight, you do
not need to acquire the HT starter. Most love the HT starter as it is very
light and does spin the engine faster. We offer it as people like choices.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[fred veenschoten]

I checked my ign timing today and it was a bit high. I set it at 8 deg and after a good drive the engine cranked right up!!??

[Jim Kanomata]

Fred, I think your distributor mechanical timing is jammed up.
Retarding the timing will give you poor mileage and performance.
Your dist. is jammed at max advance and causing starter issue.
We see that at our shop mainly on coaches.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I rebuilt the stock starter on the coach I swapped for the Ratrod toad. Basically, front bushing failure (worn egg shaped) was the crux of the
problem. Of course, this led to overcurrent, meaning the commutator needed to be cleaned up. Bushing and brushes were cheap. Wear latex gloves, the
soot is hard to wash off your hands.
Jim, is the 'hi torque' starter what used to be called 'magne-quench' or is that something else?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Jim Kanomata]

Johnny,
I do not know, but will try to find out.
Believe it is not that , but a standard material and the torque is derived
from the gear reduction. Have not looked inside it or have no idea as to
how it works. I'm sure others out there know much more about them.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Gary Kosier]

I don't know what others have, but the high torque starter I have is a
Chrysler
gear reduction starter with a custom end housing and gear. However it does
crank the big Cadillac with great vigor.

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Kanomata" <jimka...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 2:25 PM

To: <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] High torque starter?

[James Hupy]

GM standard duty starters were intended for ordinary production gasoline
engines throughout the GM product line. When they introduced the Olds
diesels, and marketed them in cold weather, they quickly found out they
needed more grunt. So, they added more field windings, and heavy duty brush
packs, and beefier bendix drives and bushings. Solenoids received some
better contactor discs and larger cable studs. They will fit everything BUT
the TM 425 cars. The TM 425 gearbox case will interchange with the HD
gearbox case, and that is what my rebuilder does to make a high torque Olds
starter. What other suppliers do is use a reduction gearbox with a high
speed motor. They spin over a stubborn motor in all conditions. Light
weight also.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[fred veenschoten]

The mechanical advance was the first thing I checked and it was free turning. When hot it would hit a cyl on compression stroke and just grunt as it
tried to fire too early. It now runs just as well as it did but cranks right up when hot.

[Jim Kanomata]

Fred,
I'm telling you your going to have less power and economy when you back of
the timing.
I would invest some time to see why your starter was behaving that way.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Ken Burton]

There are many things than can cause hard to crank problems. Here are some:

1. If you have changed your vacuum advance from the ported carb fitting to a manifold direct fitting then you have added 10 or more degrees of
advance if your foot is not on the accelerator when cranking.

2. Mechanical wear in the stater or Bendix. Usually bushings or brushes / commutator.

3. Low voltage to the starter

3a. Ground cable in wrong location. It goes direct to the block.
3b. Battery in poor condition.
3c. Battery cables in poor condition. Look carefully at the ends inside the crimps for corrosion.
3d. Battery cable connections dirty. They can look clean and still not make good electrical connection.
On mine I had poor cranking speed and cleaned the connections multiple times with a battery brush to no avail. I had decent voltage at the battery.
I happened to touch the negative post after cranking and it was warm. Where there is heat there is a bad connection. I had to clean and remove a
little bit of lead front the cable connector and the post with a file. That fixed the problem.

The joke is I could have spotted this problem with a voltmeter in minutes. I just never did it. Any connection can be checked by putting the probes
across the suspect connection and reading the voltage WHILE CRANKING. It should read ZERO. This can be done on any Positive or Negative path or
their component(s). As an example hooking on voltmeter lead direct to the engine block and holding the other lead direct to the negative battery post
should read Zero WHILE CRANKING. If not, then go find your bad connection. You can do the same on the positive side. You can also check battery
capacity by probing post to post on the battery WHILE CRANKING. It should be near 12 or slightly lower.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana