[GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Hal StClair]

I'm in the early stages of installing a 6.5 turbo diesel in my 1977 Royale and am looking at the possibility of using a 4L85e/transfer case and front drive from a later (late 90's, early 2000's). Other than probably having to extend the front step slightly for trans clearance, and considerable fabrication work to mount the power train, it looks like a doable project. It would fix the biggest problem with the swap in that the gearing could be made to really boost the mileage without killing the performance.
Anyone know of anyone that has taken on this challenge, in this direction that is?
Hal
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[Mark]

I don't have much to add, but will say that I'll be watching with great interest. I've often thought that a Cummins turbo-diesel pushing a 5-speed manual gearbox, using the FWD portion would be a great conversion (minus all those "little things" like engineering, measuring, etc.). It sure seems that it would be at least theoretically possible to drop any number of diesel / 4x4 drive trains into the space that's available (particularly if you count space that's currently not part of the engine compartment).
--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

[Kerry Pinkerton]

I'll be watching with great interest also. I've been noodling about this for a couple years. I asked a four wheel drive guy once if the front differential would hold up in a full time environment pulling a motorhome and he was iffy.

Personally I believe it will work fine but the engineering may be a challenge.

I'd probably opt for a manual trans.
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Hal StClair]

I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quit a bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be an issue I'll have to do some more research on though. Being able to use the stock starter, no trans adapter,no modifying the oil pan,an overdrive that is built for the motor with great gearing seem like a great direction to go, IMHO.
Hal

[Ken Henderson]

Seems to me, the easy/smart thing to do to evaluate the possibility of
using a 4x4 drive train for FWD only would be to pull the rear drive shaft
from a truck and try it. Get the kinks worked out before going to all the
trouble of butchering a GMC.

JWID,

Ken H.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Hal StClair <eaglefab...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> I'd look at using the 9.25" 14 bolt IFS unit up front. I'm sure it's quita bit stronger than our stock units. Making the transfer case live may be

[Les Burt]

Ford has already done exactly that with the handicap busses that were discussed here a while back. The bus was based on an F350 4x4 diesel chassis cab with a custom rear suspension and axle that permitted a lower floor. The bus was propelled by the front axle only.


Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[Jim Rountree]

Hal
Several things to look at.
The case on the front axel is aluminum and is not as strong as a cast steel. gears may be the same as rear end units.
You will need to find a special transfer system that is just two gears and a chain heavy enough for full time service.
The front axel housing will need to pass under the oil pan as in the pickup application.
Axel length will need to be determined and may require new length.
The use of a four speed is not the best choice in my opinion because the jump from 3rd to 4th is a move from direct to 70% and is a big jump. Most 5 and 6 speeds give you ratios between the top gear (70%)and direct drive for smaller jumps in this area which should give smoother down shifts while cruising over small hills. Also the 5&6 speeds are computer controlled and would allow better tailoring to our application. The intrusion into the cabin isle is no bigger but is slightly longer. this 24+ inches or so. The new designed 6L80E Chevy started in about 2007.The drag race people use it extensively and lots of mods are available to make bullet proof.
The engine may need to be raised some in the front to clear the axel.
For gas power the 8100 Chevy would be my choice since it has all the bells and whistles and can be found in junkyards and has a history of being mated to the 6 speed.


--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Hal StClair]

Jim, I don't disagree that the 6L would be a nicer swap but there are other issues. The price is one of course (me being 'cheap') but I don't think they were offered with the 6.5. The 6.6L used the Allison with a different bolt pattern. They may have used it in some of the vans, I'm not sure. The diesel transmissions were programmed differently from the gassers with unique converters although a 454 trans would have the right pattern for the 6.5.
As for the front diff, GM went with an iron case in 2011 although there are a lot of 5-700 hp rigs running the aluminum center section.
I believe the OD on the 4L85e is a .75 OD and with the motor making max tq at around 1800 rpm, it would probably work pretty well-I'll admit, not as nice as a 6 speed as you suggest.
It'll more than likely need special front axles but the CV's will bolt up nicely.
Anyway, just tossing ideas around at this point. It's great to run it buy some people that think outside the 'box'.
Hal

[Steve Weinstock]

Don't know who this is but it looks very interesting...

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3432-restoration-and-diesel-conversion.html

Steve W
1973 23'
Southern California

[Rob Mueller]

That's Marc Hogenboom GMC. It is now back in the USA in Madrid, NM.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

Marc Hogeboom (sp?) converted his coach to Diesel power in Netherlands and later (2011?) brought it back to the USA and he and his wife Puck have settled in some 40 miles north of Albuquerque. They were at Shawnee convention in March 2012. I don't think this is the same coach, though.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*



> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: steve.w...@cox.net
> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 22:10:03 -0500

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion
>
>
>

[Larry Davick]

Yup. I still think a future possibility for our coaches is the big front wheel drive dodge diesel van drivetrain. Get a few of those into the junkyard then maybe Karen will tackle it and document the whole thing!!

Larry Davick

[Mike Miller]

k2gkk wrote on Mon, 28 October 2013 20:48
> .. and he and his wife Puck have settled in some 40 miles north of Albuquerque. They were at Shawnee convention in March 2012. I don't think this is the same coach, though.


Actually it is the same coach. I spent some time under it admiring the work it took to get the diesel in there... and looking for the oil leak that was bothering Marc.

The diesel conversion is only part of the amazing things in this coach.

--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com

[Paul Leavitt]

No Allison in vans with diesels. Stadard HD 4spd. Diesels are detuned, derated from PU's. Allisons won't fit under the floor pans.,,,,,,PL

[botiemad .]

Any way you could use the entire front clip vice adapting the powertrain
components?
Steve F

--
Take care,
Steve

[Jim Bounds]

Brother, you are thinking in the right direction but trust me as you will see-- all of those wheels have been turned:
 
I looked at using a 4wd truck chassis-- the driving position was totally in the wrong place.  The modifications needed to put the wheels and the driver where they must be was so close to impossible that the mods to do it would be insane.
 
Then, I looked at an enginnered complete chassis and found the at that time LF-72 Workhorse airport shuttle bus chassis.  It was a Duramax turbo diesel, Allison 1000 5 speed trans connected to a heavy duty German transfer case fed to a solid front axle.  All air bag susupension, OBDII, ABS brakes, a 22,000 GVW "X" frame chassic with 1.95" rims, all wheel disc brakes that look like they came off the shuttle.  Again, the driving position was @ 15" back.  We brought the position up 8" (max possible) which made us modify the window compliment-- top deck driver platfor and all the interior back to the entry door.
 
The entire body of both a 23' and 26' coach were both plopped up on this chassis complete with a full ground effects package.  Cost on the modestly outfitted 23' conversion topped $250,000 and the detailed and awesome 26' coach cost over $400,000 to complete and it's still not done to the actors satisfaction which he plans to finish.
 
As you can see, there is no real way to do projects like these on a low budget and have them a viable, reliable, maintainable travel vehicle.  The ending floorplans were not that user friendly, they worked but similar to the "Spruce Goose" it was not practical.
 
It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don;t choke on trying to drink the concoction!  I did, you have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again.
 
Jim Bounds
-------------------------

[Jon Roche]

couple things to add:

first, here is a picture of what has been done(not mine, but he lives close):

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/goshen-indiana-2011-fall-convention/p40502-how-do-you-like-me-now.html

06 1 ton duramax 4x4 pickup front clip. everything else drive line is custom. but it has a driveshaft to the rear, and is powered by the middle axle. the 4wd still is in place and works. there was major customization to steering controls, to make it safe and drivable, and I do not want to guess the time and money involved. It was a 3 year project with a very motivated individual.

Secondly, the dodge promaster cargo vans mentioned. They are out now, but I do not believe they would work at all powering our coaches. Vans are a Unibody construction, and fairly light weight. payload is under 5000 pounds total. complete GVW is 9300 pounds. I do not see that v-6 being able to move our coaches well at all, and the diesel they are offering is not the same one they are offering in the 1/2 ton truck. it is a 4 cylinder diesel. Their 1/2 ton truck is coming with a v-6 diesel. I would not know if there could be a swap between the two, but I would believe that 4 cylinder diesel for the front wheel drive van would not pull our coaches along either.



--
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Rob Mueller]

Mac,

Sorry but the GMC in the photos is the diesel powered GMC he drove to Shawnee; he even gave a presentation on it at Shawnee.

Here's a bunch of photos showing Marc driving Double Trouble up the hill that leaves his property. I was too chicken to do it!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428


-----Original Message-----

From: D C _Mac_ Macdonald

Marc Hogeboom (sp?) converted his coach to Diesel power in Netherlands and later (2011?) brought it back to the USA and he and his
wife Puck have settled in some 40 miles north of Albuquerque. They were at Shawnee convention in March 2012. I don't think this is
the same coach, though.

~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~

[Rob Mueller]

Jim,

I was particularly happy to read:

"It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don't choke on trying to drink the concoction! I did, you
have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again."

You need the stress of building one off creations such as the Dura Max coaches like the proverbial "hole in the head!"

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428


-----Original Message-----

From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:14 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

The last couple of pictures on that website showed a coach that was silver and black. I guess THAT was NOT Marc's coach.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~

~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*

> From: robmu...@iinet.net.au
> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:28:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion
>

[Bill Bryant]

FYI, here is what GMC tried as a replacement to the production set up. Transverse engine, T-drive & rear drive.


http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/miscellaneous-bryant-stuff/p48892-transverse-engine-454.html
--
Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD
GMC Showroom Films DVD
http://bdub.net/billbryant/

[Rob Mueller]

Wanna bet? How much you got?

Regards,
Rob M.

[Johnny Bridges]

Let's add "In a commercial environment where liability and maintainability by others is of major concern."
 
There's nothing wrong with doing such a project as a fun endeavor and a way to spend a lot of time figuring out 'fit anf finish' as an individual if that's where your interest lies.   However, as you point out, for a commercial enterprise to undertake such a project, it's gonna cost a fortuna.
 
It's sort of like seeing if you might vould fit for instance a different front end under a GMC so it would fit available components and perhaps be a bit more rugged.  Well, one or two pioneers did, and showed it could be done.  Now I can come to Applied or the Coop and at a reasonable price have a coach refitted by professional mechanics in a shop environment... or buy the parts as a kit and roll my own, knowing it is in fact a viable conversion
.
Eventually this will happen with the driveline as more and different options appear... but the guy who fits the first one will do it as a labor of love, not because it's viable commercially.  I think it is not unlikely to expect that in the next decade I'll be able to buy a $5 - $6 Large kit of pieces which will fit someone's driveline out of something wrecked.... or buy it new for thrice that.  And the same 5 or 6 to one of the shops to install their fifth or fifteenth one.  The pioneering spirit will win out; and when it's commercially viable the shops will follow.  "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way" is the mantra.
 
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
Chestnut Mountain, GA

From: Jim Bounds <gmc...@yahoo.com>
To: "gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion


 

As you can see, there is no real way to do projects like these on a low budget and have them a viable, reliable, maintainable travel vehicle.  The ending floorplans were not that user friendly, they worked but similar to the "Spruce Goose" it was not practical.
 
It's fun to squeeze these creative juices into a glass just be sure you don;t choke on trying to drink the concoction!  I did, you have to go there to find where "too far" is, I've been there, have the shirt and won't do it again.
 
Jim Bounds

[Jim Bounds]

That is exactly what Revcon did after they could no longer purchase the Toro drive train complete.  It worked but man don't ever need a part for it.  Parts must be hand made from billet steel
 
Jim Bounds
-----------------------

[Bob de Kruyff]

""For gas power the 8100 Chevy would be my choice since it has all the bells and whistles and can be found in junkyards and has a history of being mated to the 6 speed.""

I believe the 8100 was only offered with the Allison 5spd and 6spd, not the Hydramatic.

If you look at the GM trucks with the 8100 or Duramax, the bodies are all raised 2" more off the frame to handle the Allison that was required with those engines.

--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Sammy Williams]

Body spacers could be used where the body mounts to the frame if its small
clearances that need to be made. End result is a workable solution to
extensive rework of the floor above the engine.
S. Williams

[Hal StClair]

I'm in no way looking to do a complete frame or front frame section anything close to the one JB did with the Duramax swap. The system Revcon used is much closer to my idea although I'd keep the independent front end. Nothing was available for Revcon back in the day like is now as far as independent front ends. As for the price of doing it, as stated, it's not a commercial endeavor,just a fun project.
When I started my bus conversion 20+ years ago people though I was out of my mind with the unique ideas I wanted to incorporate into the project. I took a 40' Eagle Bus (Trailways) and widened it 7 3/8", raised the roof 8", added 6" in front of the front axle and 4 1/2' behind the rear axle. I reversed the rear tag to run behind the drive axle (lifting 20,000 lb axle)removed the drop box rear and reversed it. Ended up with a 45' coach with the same wb and turning radius of a 40' coach. Built a 13 1/2' slideout room and installed an all electronic Series 60 Detroit and 6 sp Allison. With a 600+ HP,2000 ft lb motor you don't even know you're pulling most grades and still manages 9 mpg.
I did all the work myself so the price of parts is about all I need to worry about. At this point it's just a feasibility study although it will get the 6.5 td if only backed by a TH425.
The lifting of the body is a great idea to gain a little clearance, one I hadn't considered. Might make the difference between a flat or raised engine cover.And an inch or two probably wouldn't be noticeable.
Hal

[Jim Gunther]

Jim Bounds wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 08:14

> Brother, you are thinking in the right direction but trust me as you will see-- all of those wheels have been turned:
>  

Jim,

How do you feel about this one?

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/#cut_away

View it as the modular power unit I brainstormed about some years ago. Front half the frame?

Near 10.000 GVW (not much room to spare?) but 6 speed transmission and a warranty (and the darned auto Air Conditioner might work.

Would somebody spring for $30,000. (Plus Labor) to totally re=power a GMC?
--
Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;(

73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer

[Sammy Williams]

That V6 would be struggling to move a gmc id own. Knowing me id have more
then 11k in weight in it as im going to full time in one. lol Sammy Williams
On Oct 29, 2013 9:25 PM, "Jim Gunther" <Jg...@riskmanagementsearch.com>
wrote:

[Carl Stouffer]

JimGunther wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 19:25

> Jim Bounds wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 08:14
> > Brother, you are thinking in the right direction but trust me as you will see-- all of those wheels have been turned:
> >  
>
>
> Jim,
>
> How do you feel about this one?
>
> http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/#cut_away
>
> View it as the modular power unit I brainstormed about some years ago. Front half the frame?
>
> Near 10.000 GVW (not much room to spare?) but 6 speed transmission and a warranty (and the darned auto Air Conditioner might work.
>
> Would somebody spring for $30,000. (Plus Labor) to totally re=power a GMC?

Winnebago is already building an RV on that chassis. It would make more sense (if that's what you want) to just buy one of those :roll:


--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Larry Davick]

Gad! Friends don't let friends buy Winnebagos!

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca

[Carl Stouffer]

ljdavick wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 20:20

That's why I am happy with my GMC...the way it is.

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Jim Rountree]

Bill Bryant
Is there any more info on the transverse engine, pictures or drawings?

Hal
No one has mentioned a trans axel. there are several out there.
The Chevy 6L80E was in limited production in 2006 and in many cars and trucks in 2007 and up. The 8100 was discontinued about this time to meet mileage requirements standards. The 6 speed is manufactured with removable bell housing so that Chevy could use it on a number of engines. Even the Corvette uses it in there trans axel. A drag race 6L80E tranny is under $4000.
For any project like this I think it must be based on GM products and most importantly be near current production. I would not want to be adding FI, tuned intake or coil packs at the plugs. I want to be able to go to Chevy for service and have all components from recent production.
--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Hal StClair]

Jim,
I thought about the Corvette trans but I'm afraid that configuration would be quit a challenge. The trans sits in front of the diff and would need some type of adapter-they used a torque tube to the engine. The link to GM's idea for the GMC looks quit close to my thinking.
I've got a line on a 93 chevy 4x4, 6.5 td with a bad motor for cheap. I'll try to pick it up to use as a parts vehicle as it has a lot of parts needed for the project.(I hope) Picking up a whole vehicle rather than trying to track down all the parts always seems to work out better. And the idea of having off the shelf, later model parts that are available is very appealing. Anything you have to custom build can leave you in a BAD place sometimes if it fails.
Hal

[Wayne Newland]

Hal

I stand in awe of what you built. I have been a bus nut since my first
Flxible with a straight 8 Buick Roadmaster engine. I used to follow the
Busnut Board. Still have the Eagle?

Wayne Newland F9300 75 Palm Beach Sebastian, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Hal StClair
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 9:54 PM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Chris Choffat]

Yes... Revcon did this in 1979...
--
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley Featuring: 455, Power Drive, 3:21, Rockwell, Jim B QJET, Qbag. Now for Sale
2010 Nomad 24 Ft Travel Trailer

Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"

[Tom McManus]

http://myrevcon.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=9359319
--
Tom McManus
1973 30' Canyon Lands
Chesapeake VA

[Jim Gunther]

The key takeaway - Winnebago thinks the chassis has some potential. I'd like to see it grafted on to the GMC back-half w/ bogies / tandem wheels. Would allow a greater safe capacity.

I looked at the "Trend" on one of their dealer sites. I don't know if $90K is a fair price or no but, IMHO it's a LOT better value than the Mercedes / Sprinter and not badly equipped.

I think the dealer is suggesting 20 MPG - Hmmmm...

[quote title=Carl S. wrote on Tue, 29 October 2013 22:51]JimGunther wr?[/quote

> Winnebago is already building an RV on that chassis. It would make more sense (if that's what you want) to just buy one of those :roll:


--

Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;(

73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer

[Jim Bounds]

In my past, I have done a pile of motor swaps putting a "Red Ram" hemi in a 50 Plymouth business coupe and more.  There are way more issues doing a motor swap in a GMC with the front wheel drive train.  The pass. drive shaft passes mirons under the oil pan, adapting the bell housing is easy, getting that 425 tranny to mate up with any other motor is tough.  I have however found that a 350 Olds motor is a bolt in propsition.  Yea, we'll have to get fancy to give it the cahonas to do the job but maybe we are asking too much today of our old machines.  Back in the day, 70 was only a suggested speed.  It was not uncommon to see 80 and 90 MPH going somewhere.  Today with economy being the montra of performance, maybe we should expect something different than before from our drive trains.
 
I would love to build up a transverse mounted late model drive train and hey, if we don;t expect blinding speeds maybe they would work.  It takes cubic dollars though to figure that out.  Time is money, you say your labor has no value--- I think you are selling yourself short.  How many more weekends do you have in your life and what is that time worth?  As one of our friends says-- "at the end of the day-- simply put" what do you want to spend the rest of your days doing?  If you can afford to pay someone to do the grunt work, go out and see the country, play with your grandkids, I guarantee they would rather you be with them.
 
It's always fun doing mental exercises on this but reality is it would take more time than you ever imagined and more money than your CFO would consider letting you play with.  Someday maybe someone will come to me and say they will pay to prototype something but until then I can't afford to play anymore and just be very careful to not get yourself in a black hole situation.
 
Jim Bounds
---------------------

[Thomas Phipps]

I agree with Jim Bounds comment. Dreaming is nice, but unless you are dealing with cubic dollars, it is just a mildly interesting discussion.
We, for all purposes, are stuck with a "small" engine compartment. The TH425 is the transmission.
The 350 Olds and the 403 Olds are from the same small block family, this includes the ill-fated 350 Olds diesel. The 350 Chevy diesel is the extension of the 350 Olds diesel.
Ken and others work with the Cad 500, the 8.1 engine, etc are to be commended, but hardly within my CFO's comfort set. The cost of some of these engine conversions is well beyond the cost of my current coach, plus the amount of money that I spend on my previous coach.
I like working on my coach, and helping others with theirs, but not big into reinventing the wheel.
Tom, MS II
455 with Paterson carb, then stock as delivered.
--
1975 GMC Avion, under forever re-construction
Vicksburg, MS. 3.7 miles from I-20

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Jim Bounds wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 08:02
> ... How many more weekends do you have in your life and what is that time worth?  As one of our friends says-- "at the end of the day-- simply put" what do you want to spend the rest of your days doing?  ...


The difference between work and play is you don't HAVE to play (Mark Twain).

I hear what Jim B is saying but on the other hand, this would be great play for me. I spend my time out in my shop welding, grinding, machining, shaping metal, etc...most for my play time. Most people would consider it work...I don't. I have way too many projects that will never get done to consider adding another but damn, it would be fun.

Every enhancement/upgrade we have is because someone had the balls to swim against the tide. My hats off to Jim R.

The Revcon approach doesn't look good because of intrusion into the interior. I'd think the FWD Chebby with the back axle stubbed off would be a better approach. My big question is if the front end will hold up. Some of these rigs take a beating so I'd THINK it'd work. For me, if the hatch needed to be raised, I'd be OK with that. And loosing a foot or so of the 'hallway' would be OK for me. I'm putting twin couches/beds up front anyway.
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Bill Bryant]

Re: 4x4 front end conversion
Wed, 30 October 2013 01:40
Jim Rountree

Bill Bryant
Is there any more info on the transverse engine, pictures or drawings?
>
>

Here is what I have been told about the alternative engine/drive trains.

The link I noted in my previous note shows the 3 different layouts I mentioned:

1- Transverse: The document shown is a copy of the actual GMC transparency I have. I assume it must have been used in an internal engineering presentation at GMC. Sorry but I have nothing further on this design. It was an interesting layout and since they did build one, would have been nice to have a photo or more details of that setup.

2- T-Drive: Using transfer case to turn drive forward (like later Revcons). My understanding here is GMC didn't build this (only the transparency sketch exists) but with a plan to discontinue production came the effort to sell the GMC design to someone. AM General built 3 GMCs for testing I am told. Don't know the reason but they decided not to purchase the GMC MH design (but Wheat did).

3- Rear Drive: Only the transparency sketch exists. I don't believe this was a serious design, many variations in the layout and appears to me to be more day dreaming than serious thought.

--
Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD
GMC Showroom Films DVD
http://bdub.net/billbryant/

[RC Jordan]

I'm still looking for the likely donor, Kerry. A while back I ran across some repatriated Humvees given to one of our rural county's sheriff dept.

V8 diesel 6.2 L (380 cu in) -or-
V8 turbo diesel 6.5 L (400 cu in): 190 hp (142 kW) @ 3,400 rpm / 380 lbf·ft (515 N·m) @ 1,700 rpm[3]

Transmission 3-speed automatic
--
77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath

[Paul Leavitt]

Bob,,,the L18(8100) option was offered in vans for several years. No 5 spd and no 6spd. Only the HD 4spd.. They do have a larger doghouse. But other than that. Not much diffrence than a regular 3500 van.

[Keith V]

I would think an engine swap would be pushed forward rather than backwards. This would then imply an doghouse like a van and maybe an extended hood.

Al little more body work I suppose, but less interior intrusion.

But I suppose it all depends on where the axles line up doesn't it?

I really like that 4x4 GMC jon posted, pretty dang cool
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN

[Jim Rountree]

Kerry Pinkerton
Talk to me about oil coolers
mailto:jmrou...@sbcglobal.net

--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Emery Stora]

A long time back there were several pictures posted on the GMCmhphotos sites of possible ways to lengthen the GMC by putting as section into the front , in the area of the wheels which could then accommodate a different engine setup such as a transmission at the rear with a differential right at the rear of the transmission so that one wouldn't have to run the axles through the oil pan. The engine would then extend forward of the wheels. I am not sure where those concept images are located.

Emery Stora

[CHUCK DONNELLY]

Just to add to this. Coachman also used a front clip from a 4X4, they used a Ford front clip on their Clarion motorhome. Small 21 or 23 foot RV, that is kinda cool. Fiberglass construction with a balsa wood core. They use the same chain vendor as the GMC. (I have had too many brain surgeries to remember the supplier)

There is a yahoo group for this RV.

One is for sale on the Austin Texas craigslist for those wanting to see a picture or two.

Chuckd

[CHUCK DONNELLY]

Just to add to this. Coachman also used a front clip from a 4X4, they used a Ford front clip on their Clarion motorhome. Small 21 or 23 foot RV, that is kinda cool. Fiberglass construction with a balsa wood core. They use the same chain vendor as the GMC. (I have had too many brain surgeries to remember the supplier)

There is a yahoo group for this RV.

One is for sale on the Austin Texas craigslist for those wanting to see a picture or two.

Chuckd

[Robin Hood]

Wouldn't it be easier to just lift the body off and put it on a new frame?
Didn't JimB do something like that once?


--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"

[tom geiger]

Just was wondering. Looked through all the post and didn't see anyone mention of how much MPG a retrofit of this would get. I know that would be hard to nail down but was just wondering how much gain would you have, say if you put in the engine and possibly a 6 speed tranny?

[Rob Mueller]

Nope, he did it twice on Workhorse Chassis with Duramax Diesels.

If you go to the Forum and work backwards you'll come across a message from him noting that the 23' Duramax cost $250,000 and the
26' $400,000.

IMO the owners that spent that kind of money had "more money than sense!"

Regards,
Rob "wishing he had the same affliction" M.

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Robin Hood
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 11:26 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Rob Mueller]

Tom,

The best mileage I have ever heard a real GMC getting was Dave Lenzi's 8.1 Vortec installation, IIRC he gets 12-14 depending on
whether or not he tows.

He'll be 122 by the time the extra 4 mpg pays off. ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

[Keith V]

Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 12:43
> ...

> The best mileage I have ever heard a real GMC getting was Dave Lenzi's 8.1 Vortec installation, IIRC he gets 12-14 depending on
> whether or not he tows.
>

> He'll be 122 by the time the extra 4 mpg pays off. ;)
> ....


probably only working 50 hours a week by then

--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN

[Hal StClair]

Wayne, we still have the Eagle and use it. Last year we spent 9 months in it although this year hasn't been as much fun. It has been almost trouble free the last 14 years.
I did commit to buy the 1993 4x4 6.5td today so when I get home I'll start tearing things apart. It looks like a NP205 transfer case is the way to go for strength so I'll keep an eye out for one.
One bite at a time.
And it is 'fun' and not work for me. I'm retired and the CFO is all for it.

[Jim Rountree]

Here is some 6L80E info for your reading enjoyment
http://www.the-transmission-center.com/6l80__6l90.htm

--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Todd Perkins]

what I would like to see is someone workout the FWD gas/diesel drive train from on of the new Ram Promaster vans. They have a 11,000lbs GVW and +/-400 ft/lbs of torque with a 6 speed. You could just pull the front clip wheels and all.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/?&sid=1037056&KWNM=ram+promaster&KWID=1250850736&TR=1&channel=paidsearch


--
Todd

New owner of a 1976 Eleganza II 26&#8217;
other toys:
93 Vette
84 Goldwing

and gone but not forgotten
72 CB750 Chopper
96 Caprice Classic
34 Ford roadster

[Jim Rountree]

Some Revcon pictures
http://myrevcon.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=90941849

--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Jim Rountree]

Here is some Allison info
http://allisontransmission.com/commercial/transmissions/#tab-models

--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[Jim Rountree]

A couple of 8100 engines
http://www.lkqonline.com/custom/product_results.aspx?SessionID=e9557796-d067-440b-ac24-30db0addb57f&make=Chevrolet&model=Silverado%203500&partname=Engine%20Assembly&part=300_ENG&year=2003

[Jim Rountree]

Here are two transmissions
http://www.lkqonline.com/custom/product_results.aspx?SessionID=e9557796-d067-440b-ac24-30db0addb57f&make=Chevrolet&model=Suburban%202500&partname=Transmission--Transaxle%20Assembly&part=400_TRA&year=2008

[Bob de Kruyff]

Broham wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 14:08

> what I would like to see is someone workout the FWD gas/diesel drive train from on of the new Ram Promaster vans. They have a 11,000lbs GVW and +/-400 ft/lbs of torque with a 6 speed. You could just pull the front clip wheels and all.
>
> http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ram_promaster/?&sid=1037056&KWNM=ram+promaster&KWID=1250850736&TR=1&channel=paidsearch

The ride is much better than a GM G or Ford E van and the powertrain is smooth as silk, but really not up to a GMC level. It's a 3.6 and the same package as a Dodge Caravan. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/miscellaneous/p51391-fiat-based-ram.html
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Jake Reed]

That's funny I had been wondering if anyone had tried that motor.

I have a 2002 GMC 2500HD 4X4 with that engine and the Allison transmission.
It gets 12 - 14 average no matter what. I have a trailer that is typically
loaded to just over 12000 pounds. The truck gets 12 - 14. I drive it into
work air on or off it gets 12 - 14. Nothing seems to phase it.

Jake

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Mueller
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:44 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Jim Gunther]

That's why I suggested utilizing the "back half" (well, most) of the GMC frame - complete with the unique bogie set up.
Even if it wasn't "certified" you know it would increase capacity and braking (assuming a disk ?ABS?) conversion.
God only knows if the engine and transmission (I LOVE the 6 speeds) would hold up but the prospect of totaling updating the propulsion and technology is attractive.

[/quote]
The ride is much better than a GM G or Ford E van and the powertrain is smooth as silk, but really not up to a GMC level. It's a 3.6 and the same package as a Dodge Caravan. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/miscellaneous/p51391-fiat-based-ram.html[/quote]

--
Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;(

73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer

[Jake Reed]

That's funny I had been wondering if anyone had tried that motor.

I have a 2002 GMC 2500HD 4X4 with that engine and the Allison transmission.
It gets 12 - 14 average no matter what. I have a trailer that is typically
loaded to just over 12000 pounds. The truck gets 12 - 14. I drive it into
work air on or off it gets 12 - 14. Nothing seems to phase it.

Jake


-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Mueller
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:44 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Ron77]

I had a GMC Sierra 2500 2wd club cab long bed with the 8.2 and Allison transmission. It had only 60,000 miles a couple of years ago when I bought it. I got 13 not towing, and on a 5,000 mile trip from San Diego to Brainerd and then on to Indy for the Nhra races, I towed a 4600 lb. trailer and could not get 10 mpg, no matter what speed we drove. Results must vary.

I sold it because 8-9 was no better mileage than using my GMC motorhome and it was 6,000 pounds lighter and much less useful .

Ron Johnson

[Jim Gunther]

To my elaborate on my "single axle concern:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27115297/srt/pa/pging/1/page/3.cfm

SCROLL ALL-THEY-WAY DOWN TO PHOTOS

Looks like the Aussies had the same concern when they extended the Fiat to 27 feet.

[Johnny Bridges]

I don't care so much who made the products,. but 'current production' makes sense.  You're going to have a 'one oof', don't make it out of 'on-off' parts as well.
 
--johnny

 

From: Jim Rountree <jmrou...@sbcglobal.net>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

Bill Bryant
Is there any more info on the transverse engine, pictures or drawings?

Hal
No one has mentioned a trans axel. there are several out there.
The Chevy 6L80E was in limited production in 2006 and in many cars and trucks in 2007 and up. The 8100 was discontinued about this time to meet mileage requirements standards. The 6 speed is manufactured with removable bell housing so that Chevy could use it on a number of engines. Even the Corvette uses it in there trans axel. A drag race 6L80E tranny is under $4000.
For any project like this I think it must be based on GM products and most importantly be near current production. I would not want to be adding FI, tuned intake or coil packs at the plugs. I want to be able to go to Chevy for service and have all components from recent production.

--
Jim Rountree
San Antonio,TX
76 PB
77 Royale + 42in
76 Royale RB

[noi]

Greetings:

I'd like to see some way to adapt this technology:

http://wrightspeed.com/products/the-circuit/

* Turbine power (whoo hooo JetA)
* Electric drive motor


And the whole package could be adapted to fit within the confines of the currently available space!

Ah.... If money were only of no concern :) LoL

Carl P.
76 Birchaven
South of Fremont

[Jon Roche]

The thing about that dodge van. It is just not heavy enough.

just like our current GMC, they pulled the front end off a car, and found it to be a bit weak. they beefed up the a-arms, but we still have weak front bearings, that need to be pulled apart and checked every 25,000 miles.

I am running some caravans, and some ford transit connects for work to save on gas mileage, and I am finding now that after a few years, front end parts just are not holding up. We haul some weight(well within stated capacity), and they get some commercial abuse. I am fixing ball joints, bearings, and tie rods on these vehicles very premature. we might be getting 20MPG, but we are having some problems that our other larger trucks getting 12MPG do not have.


--
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Sigmund Frankenfelter]

Probably, it is a tribute to the original GMC engineers that no engine/transmission adaptation works better than the original. Maybe the closest has been the Cad, and everyone knows why that is (same trans, v similar engine)

We of course hope that this transfer case project works. I don't think, though, that anyone is holding their breath.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if GM would acknowledge our commitment to these vehicles and build a new FWD modern engine, with a four speed trans + overdrive?? There do seem to be a few modern, computerized aluminum block engines out there now. Maybe it would only require designing a new transmission. I know that's unlikely.

A guy can wish though.

[Rob Mueller]

Jon,

I'm sorry but I beg to disagree with you; the front wheel bearings are not weak. The reason GMC called for them to be removed and
RE-GREASED every 25,000 miles because the grease formulations available back when the manual was written were no where near as good
as what is available now. If you use a high quality grease such as Mobil 1 or Valvoline Synpower you can go well beyond the 25,000
miles IF the wheel bearing seals are in good condition and are keeping contamination out of the bearings.

Dave Lenzi has a set of OEM bearings in a Royale; the last time I spoke with him about them they had 80,000 miles on them. He
installed has installed the zerk in the knuckle and re-greases them without disassembling them.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

-----Original Message-----

From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jon Roche
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:42 PM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

The thing about that dodge van. It is just not heavy enough.

just like our current GMC, they pulled the front end off a car, and found it to be a bit weak. they beefed up the a-arms, but we
still have weak front bearings, that need to be pulled apart and checked every 25,000 miles.

I am running some caravans, and some ford transit connects for work to save on gas mileage, and I am finding now that after a few
years, front end parts just are not holding up. We haul some weight(well within stated capacity), and they get some commercial
abuse. I am fixing ball joints, bearings, and tie rods on these vehicles very premature. we might be getting 20MPG, but we are
having some problems that our other larger trucks getting 12MPG do not have.

[Rob Mueller]

Sigmund,

Man you are one dyed in the wool optimist! A major US corporation still recovering from bankruptcy is going to build an engine /
trans / final drive system for a bunch of crazies who LOVE a vehicle GM built in the 1970's.

As an old friend of mine used to say; "if wishes were fishes we might have some fried!" :-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428


-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Sigmund Frankenfelter
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:54 PM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[A.]

lqqkatjon wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 14:42
> ...like our current GMC, ... they beefed up the a-arms, but we still have weak front bearings, that need to be pulled apart and checked every 25,000 miles. ...
Worst thing you can do to them. Best thing is to have them pulled apart ONE TIME and have grease zerks installed, and then never again (until they fail).
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
UA (Upper Alabama)
CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to service.

[Emery Stora]

AND, it was recently announced that the bailout of GM by the US Goverment where the government took GM stock will result in a $9.7 BILLION dollar loss to the taxpayer.

Emery Stora

[Rob Mueller]

Emery,

Reminded me of the quote attributed to Sen. E. Dirksen; "a billion here a billon there and pretty soon you're talking real money!"

Regards,
Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: Emery Stora

AND, it was recently announced that the bailout of GM by the US Goverment where the government took GM stock will result in a $9.7
BILLION dollar loss to the taxpayer.

Emery Stora

[Jim Gunther]

As excited as I am about this vehicle, I suspect you might be right.

That said, if Chrysler will warrantee it for 3 or 5 years.....

If Winnebago (or others) adopt this in a serious way, there will be some engineering tweaks to make it better.


lqqkatjon wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 15:42

> The thing about that dodge van. It is just not heavy enough.
>
> just like our current GMC, they pulled the front end off a car, and found it to be a bit weak. they beefed up the a-arms, but we still have weak front bearings, that need to be pulled apart and checked every 25,000 miles.
>
> I am running some caravans, and some ford transit connects for work to save on gas mileage, and I am finding now that after a few years, front end parts just are not holding up. We haul some weight(well within stated capacity), and they get some commercial abuse. I am fixing ball joints, bearings, and tie rods on these vehicles very premature. we might be getting 20MPG, but we are having some problems that our other larger trucks getting 12MPG do not have.
>

> I am excited about these dodge vans, I am hoping for 1/2 ton truck capacity and get some better MPG. but I think it is a far cry from a 1 ton front end that our GMC's really require life and reliability.

--
Jim Gunther
www.LotusV6.com

now former owner - ;(

73 GMC-II 2600
by Explorer

[Larry Davick]

I believe it's already the chassis of choice for motorhomes in Europe.

Larry Davick

[Bob de Kruyff]

ljdavick wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 16:28

I actually saw that chassis as a motorhome in Vegas a few weeks ago. It had Euro plates on it so I assume someone was touring the US in their motorhome that they shipped over.

--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Matt Colie]

noi wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 14:48

> Greetings:
> I'd like to see some way to adapt this technology:
> http://wrightspeed.com/products/the-circuit/
> * Turbine power (whoo hooo JetA)
> * Electric drive motor
> And the whole package could be adapted to fit within the confines of the currently available space!
> Ah.... If money were only of no concern :) LoL
> Carl P.
> 76 Birchaven
> South of Fremont

Carl,
¿¿¿Do you know anything about the fuel rates of turbo-shaft power units???
You know that tank trailer that the guys want for the cross-continent run? Well, you might need one just to get between highway fuel stops. And, since few have Jet A pumps, you will just have to burn #2 low sulfur diesel.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Larry Davick]

Matt,

They must be efficient when sized correctly. Otherwise aircraft apu's would be piston, no?

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine

[tmaki]

On 10/31/2013 11:48 AM, noi wrote:

> I'd like to see some way to adapt this technology:
>
> http://wrightspeed.com/products/the-circuit/
>
> * Turbine power (whoo hooo JetA)
> * Electric drive motor

The company I work for makes the microturbine generator for
this drive system. One of the prototype vehicles that
Wrightspeed developed was in the plant for media coverage
and photo/video shoot a few months back.

Company link:

http://www.capstoneturbine.com

Click on "In The News" and then "Turbine Talk" to get more
info on HEV systems.

Click on any or all the links to learn more about all the
products and applications.




Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA

[Larry Davick]

I'm always learning something from this group!

Larry Davick

[Hal StClair]

Well, I got the donor truck home today and am now in search mode for a divorced case NP 205 transfer case. The NP 205 is a gear driven box renowned as being almost indestructible. Although it's been out of production for a number of years, there are many available and used in a lot of serious rock crawlers. There is an aftermarket unit out as well. It is a lot stronger than the aluminum case units used now. One of the nice things about using this box is it can be 'clocked' somewhat making it easier to align and tucking it up higher in the chassis. They were also available in both left and right side drives, I now have two 6.5 diesels, one with center mount turbo(van) and one with right side mount(truck).It will offer a lot more leeway in mounting the power plant.
The 4L80e used in this truck used the stand alone harness and computer for shift control which saves buying a $1000 aftermarket unit. It used the mechanical injection pump which makes the swap much simpler-throttle,cruise control and no custom computer tuning.
And the beat goes on....
Hal

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Hal StClair wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 22:06
> Well, I got the donor truck home today and am now in search mode for a divorced case NP 205 transfer case....


You go Hal! Or as Rob might say, "Good on ya"

School me on the transfer case. I thought they were part of the tranny case?
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Hal StClair]

Kerry,
I think all the transfer cases today are 'married' to the transmissions but it wasn't always that way. They used to have a stand alone or 'divorced' TC with 3 drive shafts-trans to box and shaft to front and rear. The nice thing about the 'divorced' box was that they could use any transmission with only maybe a drive shaft change. They were able to mount the box with more ideal drive shaft angles also, all of which means little to this project. But the 'divorced' box makes things more flexible in this application and potentially a shorter combo (trans/transfer case). The NP 205 box is only about 12" long and is supposed to be almost 'bullet proof'. It uses gears instead of chains like never boxes and and uses a one piece cast iron box.
Anyway, a good friend of mine that owns a transmission shop recommended it and thinks it should work fine. He hasn't steered me wrong before and I trust his judgment. I'm afraid it's a little out of my expertise.
Hal

[Matt Colie]

ljdavick wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 21:56

> Matt,
>
> They must be efficient when sized correctly. Otherwise aircraft apu's would be piston, no?
>
> Larry Davick

Larry,

They have a nearly acceptable specific fuel rate (Lbs/Hp-Hr) at the design load but that is the only time.

Aircraft is all about weight. They are light.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Johnny Bridges]

They're much lighter weight - desireable in an airplane.
 
--johnny

 

From: Larry Davick <ljda...@comcast.net>
To: "gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Hal, please, PLEASE take lots of photos and post the whole process here and on the photo site. Regardless of the nay-sayers, there are a lot of people that are very interested in what you are going to do.

Start a new thread and hopefully it won't be highjacked.

On my GMC based art deco car hauler

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6130/Gilmoreoil_truck2.jpg



I'll have quite a few options regarding drivetrain. Since the body will be scratch built, I'll have no issues with cabin changes and height of the floor. I have a Caddy 500 machined and ready to be assembled but I like the idea of a different tranny/differential/suspension. I also like the idea of a driveshaft back to the diff. That solves a LOT of problems by allowing us to lift the engine high enough for the axles to clear the oil pan without modifications.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[RC Jordan]

Ditto, what Kerry said.
--
77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath

[Keith V]

I think rear engine / ear drive is the best solution.
Opens up a lot of options that way too
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN

[Rob Mueller]

That maybe so but is the vehicle still a GMC?

Sorry, not in my opinion.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

-----Original Message-----

From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Keith V
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:20 PM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

I think rear engine / ear drive is the best solution.
Opens up a lot of options that way too
--
Keith

[Sean Kidd]

Capstone fuel rate..based on the published fuel rate of 435,000 BTUh, without efficiency rates, is 3.1 gallons per hour of #2 oil (diesel) @ 140,000 BTU per gallon as compared to 60 mailto:mph@10MPG= 6 gallons per hour or 750,000 BTUh for pump gasoline. Efficiencies being equal...which they are not, the turbine is about 10%-15% more efficient than out engines.
--
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quadra Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms,
Fluorescent Mineral Capital of the World, New Jersey

[Jake Reed]

Just as long as you don't use anything built by Capstone. Just ask the
Reagan Library. They used to be one of my customers. Not even sure I would
trust any numbers they give you.

Jake

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Sean Kidd
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:53 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 4x4 front end conversion

[Carl Stouffer]

Hal StClair wrote on Thu, 31 October 2013 20:43
> Kerry,
> I think all the transfer cases today are 'married' to the transmissions but it wasn't always that way. They used to have a stand alone or 'divorced' TC with 3 drive shafts-trans to box and shaft to front and rear. The nice thing about the 'divorced' box was that they could use any transmission with only maybe a drive shaft change. They were able to mount the box with more ideal drive shaft angles also, all of which means little to this project. But the 'divorced' box makes things more flexible in this application and potentially a shorter combo (trans/transfer case). The NP 205 box is only about 12" long and is supposed to be almost 'bullet proof'. It uses gears instead of chains like newer boxes and uses a one piece cast iron case.

> Anyway, a good friend of mine that owns a transmission shop recommended it and thinks it should work fine. He hasn't steered me wrong before and I trust his judgment. I'm afraid it's a little out of my expertise.
> Hal

Hal,

The NP-205 was available either as a divorced case or bolted to the transmission, via an adapter. Your 4 X 4 friend is right, they are gear drive and VERY strong. The one on the photo of the Revcon drivetrain looks like a 205 with the rear output removed and a plate in it's place. The low range is 2:1 on those. I wonder if that could be retained in this type of application. It would be helpful in any situation where you needed to go slow but still be able to apply plenty of torque, but otherwise mostly useless. I'm sure it would stand up to plenty of abuse. Combine that with a Dana 60 center section, and the drivetrain would be pretty much bullet proof.

While this type of project is not for me, I am interested to see whether or not you can pull it off, and am rooting for you. I know there will be many challenges, mostly with modifying the frame to accommodate the engine/transmission and third member, but I'm guessing it can be done by someone with the right skill sets and enough tenacity.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[noi]

Greetings:

Matt,

&#8220;¿¿¿Do you know anything about the fuel rates of turbo-shaft power units???&#8221;

Yes, actually I do (BS Aeronautics) ;) - And it still doesn't detract from my enthusiasm for turbines!

&#8220;They have a nearly acceptable specific fuel rate (Lbs/Hp-Hr) at the design load but that is the only time.&#8221;

I was at an electric car show here recently, and Wrightspeed had a truck there for show & tell.

Knowing about the SFC of turbine engines, and how poor it can be if used over a range of power settings, I asked the rep if using a diesel engine for generator power might be more efficient.

He said it would, if they used the turbine as a motor/generator - But they only run the turbine generator &#8220;balls to the wall&#8221; charging the batteries or it was off &#8211; Thus, the good efficiency and light weight! &#8211; Plus, it could use a variety of fuels, not just diesel.

TobyM,

Cool &#8211; Thanks &#8211; They let you take any home to &#8220;play&#8221; with (LoL)

Carl P.

[Matt Colie]

noi wrote on Sat, 02 November 2013 00:03

> Greetings:
>
> Matt,
>
> &#8220;¿¿¿Do you know anything about the fuel rates of turbo-shaft power units???&#8221;
>
> Yes, actually I do (BS Aeronautics) ;) - And it still doesn't detract from my enthusiasm for turbines!
>
> &#8220;They have a nearly acceptable specific fuel rate (Lbs/Hp-Hr) at the design load but that is the only time.&#8221;
>
> I was at an electric car show here recently, and Wrightspeed had a truck there for show & tell.
>
> Knowing about the SFC of turbine engines, and how poor it can be if used over a range of power settings, I asked the rep if using a diesel engine for generator power might be more efficient.
>
> He said it would, if they used the turbine as a motor/generator - But they only run the turbine generator &#8220;balls to the wall&#8221; charging the batteries or it was off &#8211; Thus, the good efficiency and light weight! &#8211; Plus, it could use a variety of fuels, not just diesel.
>
> TobyM,
>
> Cool &#8211; Thanks &#8211; They let you take any home to &#8220;play&#8221; with (LoL)
>
> Carl P.

NoI,

I have had a soft spot in my heart (head) for gas turbines.

As an engineer, you have to love the power to weight ratio. But, the part load problem is kind of a killer for anything less that rated load. That is why I have always loved the USCG High Endurance Cutters. They have the best of both. Two large (not huge) diesels each pair is clutched to a shaft with a CP wheel. They cruise at 11 knots for 15000 Nm, but can flank at near 30 but only for 2000 miles.

There have been many attempts to deal that part load fuel rate, but none have been effective either for ROI or MTBF issues.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Bob de Kruyff]

""I have had a soft spot in my heart (head) for gas turbines.

As an engineer, you have to love the power to weight ratio. But, the part load problem is kind of a killer for anything less that rated load. That is why I have always loved the USCG High Endurance Cutters. They have the best of both. Two large (not huge) diesels each pair is clutched to a shaft with a CP wheel. They cruise at 11 knots for 15000 Nm, but can flank at near 30 but only for 2000 miles.

There have been many attempts to deal that part load fuel rate, but none have been effective either for ROI or MTBF issues.

Matt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit""

The Queen Mary II ia another good example.

--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Hal StClair]

Well, I picked up a divorced NP205 today for a steal of a price ( $100) and it's supposed to only have 66,000 miles on it. The guy bought it from a neighbor that wrecked his truck years ago and just stored it as a spare for his truck. Anyway, it'll have to be opened up and resealed but it really felt tight. A mere 460 mile round trip to get it but my VW TDI almost makes fuel (LOL).
I'll sure try to keep a picture record of the project but will have to learn how to post pictures when the time comes. My plan is to remove the front frame section of the GMC and do the fab work where things are easy to reach. I have a second GMC I can use to take measurements while working on the front repower. Getting to old to be climbing over and under the coach for all the fabrication work.
I appreciate all the positive feedback I've got on the board and can understand those that think it a 'pipe dream'. It's true that most projects like this never get completed so there certainly is a history to look at but I think I'm motivated enough to follow it through. Only time will tell.....
Hal

[Rob Mueller]

Hal,

I laude your taking on this project and apologize if I am demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious when I suggest that you keep
detailed records and take lots of photographs along the way.

It will help people to determine if they have the skill set, time, and money to follow in your footsteps.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

-----Original Message-----