[GMCnet] LS swap into GMC motorhome

[steven47--- via Gmclist]

Has anyone ever swapped an LS motor (any LS motor) into a GMC motorhome? I already know about the Allison transmission upgrade. I'm toying with a
notion...

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[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Think about this. A drive shaft, 1 1/4" in diameter, going in one side of
the oil pan, and out the other. Then, think about the crankshaft, rods, and
oil pump. Clear those hurdles, and anything is possible given enough
determination and money.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Adolph Santorine via Gmclist]

What’s the Allison transmission upgrade?

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

Steve,
It just takes time to figure how to lay the tube inthe pan and tig weld the
pan.
I have advised some on how to do it.
An Allison tras is an Allison Torque converter.
where all the vains are brazed on ad the ccenter bearing is a roller beari,
not a bronze bushing.
Just like people do not know the diferance between a Japanese and Chinese.
They both have nese.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist]

steveofthenw wrote on Sun, 18 August 2019 17:28

> Has anyone ever swapped an LS motor (any LS motor) into a GMC motorhome? I already know about the Allison transmission upgrade. I'm toying with a
> notion...

Do tell about this Allison upgrade please.
--
Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

[Adolph Santorine via Gmclist]

If I understand what Jim K was saying it’s only the torque converter, meaning it’s still a three speed TH-425.

That it, Jim?

No comment on the ‘nese ——

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

Well, if you want a 4-5 speed, it will happen.
Meanwhile lets get the LS planted in.
The gain of the 5 speed is not going to give you a big erection.
Ask Hal St Clair, I believe he put one in and used a transfer case to
accomplish that.
Hal is a very talented craftsman and mechanic so he does these things well.
If you cannot do it well, you'll be on the side of the road.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 4:10 PM Adolph Santorine via Gmclist <
gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> ______Allison transmission is in a class by itself as it is for Diesel rigs

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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

Steven(if that is your name),
1st, it is always nice to know who we are conversing with, and from where you are hailing us. For that reason, we kindly suggest that you set up a signature that provides us with a name, location, and the year and model of your coach. It simply helps us relate better to you and your needs.

2nd, regarding your LS swap questions. The subject has been discussed previously by members who do not visit as often as they used to. You might try searching previous messages on the forum.

LS swaps were also discussed in several of the GMC motorhome related facebook pages. There are also photos showing some prototyping and the headaches encountered. So far, nobody has successfully transplanted an LS due to the complex issues that require major alteration. The bottom line is that with enough money, anything is possible.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Matt Colie via Gmclist]

steveofthenw wrote on Sun, 18 August 2019 17:28

> Has anyone ever swapped an LS motor (any LS motor) into a GMC motorhome? I already know about the Allison transmission upgrade. I'm toying with a
> notion...

Steve(?),

Welcome to the group, family, cult, asylum.....

You are new here and that is not a problem at all. As was suggested, please create a sigfile. As it looks like you are working the forum, go to
<Control Panel/Account Settings> and scroll down. Please fill in: A real name because we like to know who you are when we meet, A bit about your
coach (model, year and major mods) and a geographic better than NW. This is an amazing group and you will get real assistance here and good
information, but we have to know what we are dealing with from the get-go....

I am not sure what you hope to gain with the LS motor. The Olds engines are know for both their longevity and reliability. In our use, those are two
really good things. If you try to cram in any engine not designed to go with the TH425, you are in for a major program. Given the NW in your current
alias (that can be changed easily by the way), you are not close to Michigan. If you really want to pursue this, you really need to meet Dave Lenzi.
He has done a number of 8.1 installations. But, you should understand the this man is a true Grand Wizard of metal work. He does make oil pans with
a pass for the right drive axle. It misses the crank throws by about 45mil (Not mm) on each side. He also modifies the RFB (Rear Face of Block) so
it can bolt to a TH425.

Do you already have a coach? If so, tell us more.

In any case, you should look up the Western States rally that will be in October and plan to get there. Coach or no, it you have interest at all you
can learn more standing in one place (try to keep you mouth closed, because it is easy to be overwhelmed), than you will learn by trying to read every
thing that you can find.

In any case, Welcome.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

I'm not sure what an LS conversion would accomplish. Granted, it is a more modern engine with a modern management system, but I don't think it would
work well in our application.

I have a Chevy 2500HD with a 6.0 LS in it. The truck is empty most of the time and I would guess weighs in the neighborhood of 6500 lbs and while it
is a hot rod, it still only gets about 12 miles per gallon. Put that engine in a 12,000 lb vehicle with 30% more frontal surface area and it will
probably get the same, or worse mileage as a 455 olds.

There IS a version of the LS that is used in a four wheel drive Saab version of the Trail Blazer, that has a tunnel through the oil pan for an axle
shaft, that might bear some looking into if someone REALLY wanted to do this.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[Dolph Santorine via Gmclist]

I would be more interested in a 6 speed transmission than the 6.0

We just traded our company 3500 that had the 6.0 for a diesel because we needed more grunt.

Just say’in.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

My first engine swap was in a 1938 Olds. Pulled out the flathead 6, and put
in a 303 Olds Rocket. Went well, but the stock brakes, drive shaft,
differential, didn't like it much.
Second was a backwards swap. Had a 1946 Ford Deluxe 4 door with a 1958
Chrysler Hemi in it. Locked spider gears, Ford 3 speed truck transmission.
Pulled out the Hemi and the locked rear end, and Built a full race Ford
flathead for it. Much better.
Third was a 1951 Chevrolet. Pulled the 216 in-line 6, and replaced it
with an Olds 324 v-8 and a B&M Hydro-stik 4 speed automatic, along with all
Pontiac running gear.
So, I am not a stranger to engine swaps, but, experience has taught me
quite a lot about them. Proceed with caution is the best advice I can give.
Some of them don't turn out well.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 10:59 AM Dolph Santorine via Gmclist <

[Todd Sullivan via Gmclist]

Had an 08 3/4 ton suburban with the 6.0. Hated the darn thing. Horrible
fuel economy and constant trans shifts. Super annoying.

Sully
Bellevue wa

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:59 AM Dolph Santorine via Gmclist <

[tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist]

I think a swap would be cool to do but like the others ive been around the block a few times building and swapping things.

If i was looking to throw "the bucks" at this motor set up id be looking at a pro-charger like a Paxton....rebuild the motor specifically for it and
hope like heck the drivetrain can take 500 or 600hp.

The majority of the time its always the same...make power, break parts...fix said broken part with something stronger then fix the next broken part
etc till everything has been modified and you are no were near the place you started.

Moral of the story....do it all or do nothing but its sure damn fun to try.

--
Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

[Dolph Santorine via Gmclist]

I think the biggest thing I heard from the retired HydraMatic folks at the Great Lakers rally, is how they went to stamped parts from cast and machined.

We had a lot more headroom when we were dragging 5 to 6,000 lb cars around.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

"make power, break parts...fix said broken part with something stronger then fix the next broken part etc."

Not a good strategy for a motorhome. Unless you have REALLY good towing insurance. :twisted:

--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald via Gmclist]

Monster Transmissions builds rigs for the GMC motorhome rated above 10 k pounds at least!
Talk to Jim Bounds at COOP about their rebuilds.

D C "Mac" Macdonald​
Amateur Radio K2GKK​
Since 30 November '53​
USAF and FAA, Retired​
Member GMCMI & Classics​
Oklahoma City, OK​
"The Money Pit"​
TZE166V101966


________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 15:46
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Cc: tonka...@hotmail.com <tonka...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] LS swap into GMC motorhome

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

My old B&M Hydro-stik was based on the pre-1953 Hydramatic Transmission.
Cast iron case, and planetary gearset INSIDE the torque converter. It had
4 forward speeds. 100% reduction in 1st, 75% reduction in 2nd, 50%
reduction in 3rd, and 1-1 in top. B&M said that it was good for 1000
Flywheel horsepower. I never broke it, but I sure did break lots of stuff
downstream from it. When it shifted gears, you could look on the pavement
where the rubber was laid down and tell where the shift points were. No
breaks in the rubber, just the density of the patch changed. It would jar
the fillings out of your teeth on wide open throttle shifts.
Just what you DON'T WANT in a family motorhome.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Jim Miller via Gmclist]

On Aug 20, 2019, at 4:46 PM, tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> If i was looking to throw "the bucks" at this motor set up id be looking at a pro-charger like a Paxton....rebuild the motor specifically for it and hope like heck the drivetrain can take 500 or 600hp.

Are our stock 455s and 403s lacking on power or endurance in some way? I have two coaches with one of each engine and they have always done whatever I’ve asked them to do. I want maximum reliability from them - not maximum horsepower. The engine and drivetrain are already working at a marine/industrial duty cycle when going down the Interstate and I sure don’t want to ask the driveline to eat anything additional by putting in some monster engine.

FWIW, I already know the answer to my question posed above but I am curious about peoples' motivation for going through a bunch of machinations to graft in high HP/high torque engines and drivelines when the existing ones seem to work fine.

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Jim, it is the "Old Bull vs Young Bull" syndrome. The young ones have
soooooo much to learn, and are not good at listening to us old bulls who
have been there, done that already. Only experience will teach them what
they need to know.
There is more to the "Old Bull-Young Bull" story. Best shared off net
over Adult Beverages. Don't wish to offend anyone on the net.
Jim Hupy
Salem,Oregon

[Jim Miller via Gmclist]

> On Aug 20, 2019, at 6:53 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
> Jim, it is the "Old Bull vs Young Bull" syndrome. The young ones have soooooo much to learn, and are not good at listening to us old bulls who have been there, done that already. Only experience will teach them what they need to know. There is more to the "Old Bull-Young Bull" story. Best shared off net over Adult Beverages.

Agree completely Jim. Hope to meet you in person some day to share stories and some of those beverages.

—Jim

[Justin Brady via Gmclist]

I think the 455 is fine honestly, I would really like a transmission with a few more gears though.
There's several spots where I feel like I'm missing a gear.

I think people tend to assume that a little more power is going to really make the thing move. I don't think so. My daily is a tuned Duramax with a
good bit more power than you'd get with an LS, but once you crank the gvrw up to 11-12k it's not that much faster than the GMC. I think people are
overlooking the weight of the thing. Yes more hp and torque will get you up and going quicker but I don't know how much quicker before you just start
breaking things.

I'd be interested to drive one of Dave Lenzi's 8.1 swaps just to see.
--
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455

[Larry via Gmclist]

I'm running a 8.2 Cadillac. (.020 over 500CID) Pretty happy with it. If you are looking for a little more, it is a relatively easy swap as it is a
bolt-up to the 425. A few things need to be done to it to make it fully reliable. And with the right parts can be port injected with full fuel and
spark mapping, lean cruise, and DEFCO. With the right cam, all of the torque between 2500 and 3500. If you want more gear, Final Drives are available
and the 425 from a 66-67 Toro and the 67 Eldo is a switch pitch giving you one more "gear" in each of 1, 2, 3 and reverse for a little more to
accelerate getting on freeway ramps. (don't try that in reverse. ;) ) Works for me. JWID
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

[Matt Colie via Gmclist]

Justin Brady wrote on Tue, 20 August 2019 22:08

> I think the 455 is fine honestly, I would really like a transmission with a few more gears though.
> There's several spots where I feel like I'm missing a gear.
>
> I think people tend to assume that a little more power is going to really make the thing move. I don't think so. My daily is a tuned Duramax with
> a good bit more power than you'd get with an LS, but once you crank the gvrw up to 11-12k it's not that much faster than the GMC. I think people are
> overlooking the weight of the thing. Yes more hp and torque will get you up and going quicker but I don't know how much quicker before you just
> start breaking things.
>
> I'd be interested to drive one of Dave Lenzi's 8.1 swaps just to see.

Justin,

If you feel like you are missing a gear, you probably have the wrong cam in there. Mine was never bad, but when I redid the engine (because a piston
failed) I replaced the cam with the number that Dick Paterson recommended. It is much improved, but I still might like a 3.55 (the coach is less than
10K#).

I don't need it to go any faster. When in traffic, I often have to back off the acceleration ramp because the 4-wheel ahead is not moving. As for
breaking things, JimK has a twin-turbo 520 and the transmission has not been his big problem.

Yes, a Dave Lenzi 8.1 is a nice package, but you better talk to him. He does employ some serious magical arts to make it all go.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

It sure would be nice if all this experience and knowledge were organized somewhere it could be accessed by the newer owners of these coaches. All
that info is going to be lost.

The only reason anyone younger and less experienced is on here apparently 'not listening' is b/c you may have covered it 10 years ago with someone,
but that person is _long_gone_ and a new person comes along and asks the same question. It must get old for you guys with all the knowledge and
experience. But it's not the new guy's fault, it's actually your fault for not being organized and preserving the knowledge you have. He or she
probably looked for the answer and couldn't find it b/c all this stuff is impossible to find on this forum, or pretty much all the other GMC pages for
that matter.

I had to laugh the other day, googling around I found a website with some good info, went to its homepage and there wasn't a way to navigate back to
the page from the main page (except by the return button). It was as if someone would just have to know the page existed and type it in by hand to
get there. Or stumble upon it and bookmark it for future reference. That kind of summed up my experience with anything GMC related on the
internet. As long as you're generalizing new owners vs old owners, I'll generalize GMC webpages. They are bad.

Along the same lines, the info for part numbers for common automotive parts shouldn't be a secret within our 'community'. 100% of the time, the
answer shouldn't be 'call vendor X' so I can pay double for a part that I could walk in and get at my local NAPA.

If you want to see how a good forum is run, check out ChevyTalk or http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/ . They use 'stickies' for topics that
have been covered well, and asked often.

I love the old bull young bull story btw, just told it to someone on Monday that had never heard it, great life lesson but a poor analogy for this
situation.

A better analogy would be a teacher being mad at a student for not remembering what was taught in the same classroom the previous year (to a different
set of students).

<<Jim, it is the "Old Bull vs Young Bull" syndrome. The young ones have
soooooo much to learn, and are not good at listening to us old bulls who
have been there, done that already. Only experience will teach them what
they need to know.
There is more to the "Old Bull-Young Bull" story. Best shared off net
over Adult Beverages. Don't wish to offend anyone on the net.
Jim Hupy
Salem,Oregon>>>>

--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[Jim Miller via Gmclist]

On Aug 21, 2019, at 9:43 AM, Todd Snyder via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> It sure would be nice if all this experience and knowledge were organized somewhere it could be accessed by the newer owners of these coaches

How about Google? I just googled: gmcnet engine swap

…and the #1 result is a discussion of LS engine swaps from back in 2016. Further down the results are discussions of diesels from 2011.

As for “organized somewhere”: Bdub’s site is a tremendous compendium of GMC MH information and there are others that are easily located via search engine.

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Old bull - young bull original story. The youbng bull looks down the pasture a bit at the cows there and tells the old bull "Hey Old Bull, let's run
down the pasture and jump a cow". Old Bull repiles "No, youngster, let's WALK down there and jump them ALL."

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[rallymaster--- via Gmclist]

Good on you, Todd.
I hereby nominate you to gather all this valuable information into a
central location, and make it readily available to all, by a simple
search function.

Ronc

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:43:31 -0600 Todd Snyder via Gmclist
<gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> writes:
>
> It sure would be nice if all this experience and knowledge were
> organized somewhere it could be accessed by the newer owners of

> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
1978 Eleganza II

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

Todd,
You have no idea as to how much time we spend on the phone helping people.
We cannot exist if we cannot create a margin to stay in business.
If you think I just fell out of a truck full of rice. you better examine my
credentials. I have degrees and certifications and mgt. experience.
We donat to International and other GMC organizatio 3-4K per year and are
active in seminars.
Did you know that I was intalmental in raising funds to present
Keep supporting the other people
I take personal offense to your comment on paying double with everything
we sell.
There are lot of parts you cannot get from NAPA or other National Part
suppliers.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Sammy Williams via Gmclist]

The "JIMS" must be supported. They both have elected to service a very
small segment of the market that could easily go without a supplier, LET
ALONE TWO. Both of them must make a profit, thats just how capitalism
works. Enjoyment of the hobby at the end of the day isn't going to feed the
bulldog. I have no problem with the markup they place on an item as I know
its going to keep a supplier here that could just as easily go elsewhere.

Be glad you have your "JIMS" many communities of odd vehicles have NO
suppliers, let alone two.

Sammy Williams

[Emery Stora via Gmclist]

How about we nominate you to do this?

There is a tremendous amount of information on the net if you look for it.
GMCMI.com
GMCWS. com
GMCES and others.
For years many of us have been providing information to bdub com where BillyMassey has been compiling and storing it.

The GMCMI.com site has a parts interchange open to all, even non members,that lists thousands of part numbers for GMC parts so that you can indeed go into NAPA and many other suppliers and give them their part number or ones they can cross reference.

In fact we have a NAPA zone manager as a member who has kept the GMCMI parts interchange updated with the latest part numbers from NAPA.

It has been the goal of many GMC owners over the years to preserve information on GMCs and pass it on to new owners.

Instead of criticizing why don‘t you get more proactive and solve what you perceive to be a problem and not just nominate others to do it for you.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

[Gary Bovee via Gmclist]

We need to support all our GMC venders. Without them we would be un a world of hurt.

They go the extra mile for us to help keep our GMCs on the road.

JMTCW.

Gary Bovee
Red Bluff, CA
1978 GMC Royale
www.gmcidiotsguide.com

> On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:03 AM, Jim Kanomata via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
> Todd,
> You have no idea as to how much time we spend on the phone helping people.
> We cannot exist if we cannot create a margin to stay in business.
> If you think I just fell out of a truck full of rice. you better examine my
> credentials. I have degrees and certifications and mgt. experience.
> We donat to International and other GMC organizatio 3-4K per year and are
> active in seminars.
> Did you know that I was intalmental in raising funds to present
> Keep supporting the other people
> I take personal offense to your comment on paying double with everything
> we sell.
> There are lot of parts you cannot get from NAPA or other National Part
>

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

I'm not sure where this perception of "paying twice what I can get it for elsewhere" about the GMC vendors comes from. I buy all major parts from Jim
K and have never felt like I was price gouged. Maybe he is a little higher on some things, but it is well worth the price to get the right part and
the benefit of his experience. Same goes for Jim Bounds and Alex Sirum.

--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

There will always be a certain element of purchasers who shop by price
only. They always persue the lowest possible price, regardless of quality.
If their resources are extremely limited, I fully understand their
position.
I have a bit different take on purchases that I personally have
anything to do with. If I have a customer vehicle in the work bay and it is
incapacitated for lack of parts on hand, and I have to do a parts search vs
making a phone call to one of our vendors, guess what I am going to do. MY
TIME IS MONEY, I am not fond of wasting any of it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Todd Sullivan via Gmclist]

My thoughts almost exactly Emery. Millennial??

Sully
Bellevue wa.

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

Exactly my point. 8o

How do you find any of that information?

http://www.bdub.net/GMCLinks.html

<<For years many of us have been providing information to bdub com where BillyMassey has been compiling and storing it. >>

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

What your talking here is paying extra b/c the knowledge, the information, of where to get that correct part isn't available, or you're willing to pay
extra for the convenience of not having to chase down the part. Everyone has a right to do it the way they want . I'd like to have the information
and have the option of chasing it down myself, not just have the only option be to "call Jim".

<<it is well worth the price to get the right part and the benefit of his experience.>>>

--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

I'll reply below:

<<<<Todd,
You have no idea as to how much time we spend on the phone helping people.>>>

This doesn't surprise me, information about these is not easy to find online. I know there's a bunch of good info out there but, holy cow, good luck
finding it when you need it.

<<<We cannot exist if we cannot create a margin to stay in business.>>>

Absolutely, some of the value of the part is the knowledge that it will fit and be good quality. People get that when they buy from you. If it's a
common part though, then they are just paying extra for the knowledge and imo the knowledge is out there and should be accessible as an option for
someone willing to buy locally.

<<<If you think I just fell out of a truck full of rice. you better examine my
credentials. I have degrees and certifications and mgt. experience.
We donat to International and other GMC organizatio 3-4K per year and are
active in seminars.
Did you know that I was intalmental in raising funds to present
Keep supporting the other people>>>

Not sure what to make of this, sorry.....

<<<I take personal offense to your comment on paying double with everything
we sell.
There are lot of parts you cannot get from NAPA or other National Part
suppliers.>>>>

Sorry I offended you, I didn't mean to. But I never said you were gouging, this is a free country. Charge whatever you want to charge. You have
overhead you need to cover, it can't be cheap to operate out of CA. If people are willing to pay it then great.

And like you said, some parts are not available except through suppliers that you have developed.

--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist]

Having restored 2 cars that parts were almost none existant for i can attest that having commercial support by individuals as dedicated as these
businesses is one heck of a bonus!

I think sometimes people forget that these are 40+ year old motorhomes that GMC does not support and a large portion of the parts these guys sell have
been sourced, made, modified etc by them.

Am i guilty for not buying from them yet....sure, not by choice but because the exchange rate plus shipping kills me but i do have a list of
"unobtanium" that they do have and when the time comes they will get the call and the order will be placed so i can do my part to support these great
business individuals.

--
Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

[Jim Miller via Gmclist]

On Aug 21, 2019, at 9:43 AM, Todd Snyder via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> 100% of the time, the answer shouldn't be 'call vendor X' so I can pay double for a part that I could walk in and get at my local NAPA.

If it is so easy to source parts then why don’t YOU just go into your local NAPA, plop your part down on the counter and let THEM do the legwork of finding a proper replacement? Many of the cross-referenced parts have been discovered by spending hours pawing through the back room of a NAPA or some other supplier to find the right item. Some parts have to be modified in order to work correctly in the GMC MH application and someone had to take the time to make mods, test them, refine the mods, test the refinements and only then can a part be sold with confidence. That NRE has a cost associated with it and is difficult to recoup in such a low volume market. I have personally spent many hundreds of dollars buying ignition parts, voltage regulators, actuators and other items to develop solutions to keep our Onans running for another 40 years and many of those parts turned out to be not suitable for the application and I had to eat the cost. MANY others in the GMC community have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in totality to develop intake manifolds, aluminum castings, radiators, new front suspensions, brake systems, stainless brake line sets, airbag replacements and a myriad of other things that can now be bought from a vendor and simply dropped into place with known positive results.

How about this example - you want front wheel bearings and we give you the Timken L numbers for the cups and cones and you go buy them yourself to save 75% off what our vendors charge. Within a few hundred miles you’ll find out with great fanfare that there is more to the story. There are three different versions of the Toronado front wheel bearings with virtually identical numbering and two of those versions will destroy themselves in VERY short order if you put them in your coach. Our suppliers know how to source the correct sets and know how to DOUBLE CHECK them to be correct before they sell them to you.

I also do not know where this “pay double” concept comes from. I sell a couple things at wholesale to JimK and I also know what he sells them for at retail on his website. I assure you it is neither double what I charged him nor “double what its worth”. I have found the same to be true for the other GMC vendors I’ve bought from. Can you provide some examples of items on which our vendors are gouging us with a 100% profit margin compared to other non-GMC suppliers?

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

[Deb McWade via Gmclist]

Todd - as a relatively new owner myself, I can say that I also took offence at your comments regarding "call vendor X" so you can pay double. You say
you did not mean any offense. Well it certainly sounded like you were accusing him and other vendors on this site of overcharging. the answer
shouldn't be 'call vendor X' so I can pay double for a part that I could walk in and get at my local NAPA. I have spent hours on the phone with Jim
K, who, in response to questions I posted in the forum, told me to call & offered to spend that time with me, not to sell me a part, but to give me
assistance in troubleshooting. Generally speaking, when the advice "call one of the Jims" is passed along, it is because it is most likely that you
won't find that part at your local NAPA, or will end up with the wrong part due to changes in the part configuration with no change in the part
number. And there are uncounted instances here (and not just in the parts interchange on GMCMI or bdub's site) where members have discussed what they
have subbed a GMC part with, how well it worked, what they had to do to make it work, etc, etc. The answer is NOT 100% of the time "call vendor X"

So don't turn your nose up at good advice, given with the best of intentions, by folks that have been doing this a very long time, to keep you from
going down a rabbit hole. "Ask Jim K" will get you the correct information and a part that will work.
--
Deb McWade
Logan Lake, BC, CAN
"Li'l Sister"
'77 Kingsley, 403, EBL EFI;
TZE167V101404
It's Bigger on the Inside!

[Chris Tyler via Gmclist]

I think because as a group, there are a bunch of inveterate tinkerers [myself included] who constantly try new ideas to build a better mouse trap.

Some work out better than others.

Parts availabilty down the road is a concern.

Heres the thing: even if you could increase the milage by 50% [which is a mean feat unto itself] the mods would likely never pay for themselves.

THat said, someday mine will end up with low boost turbocharging.I already have most of the parts needed.


--
76 Glenbrook

[tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist]

I too love to tinker and believe in the DYI world....(i raced motorcycles professionally and made most of my own parts). That being said i will source
things locally if possible and try to upgrade as well but sometimes their is no better part them OEM so these guys are a must.

So if you want to LS do it and take plenty of pics for those that cant do it themselves....if it works out great you can kit it....if it doesnt, oh
well....for me, its fun to try.

--
Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

[THOMAS R WHITTON via Gmclist]

Todd,
Apparently you are a fairly new GMC motorhome owner.  I've been around as an owner for nearly 20-years, for a while as a custom steering wheel vendor, but most of the time as an owner and customer.  Years ago, after I first bought our coach, I bought a lot of parts from the "Jims" but for the last few years I honestly haven't needed much so haven't bought much.  I learned long ago from personal experience that you can count on our vendors as consultants and reliable suppliers.  They deal constantly with our beloved coaches and many times when you call with a question they know the answer before you finish the question.  Maybe NAPA, AutoZone, Advance Auto and O'Reilly are intimately familiar with the GMC motorhome in your town but that's not the case where most of us live.  Yes, you can purchase items such as light bulbs and heater hose from these places but try buying a GMC motorhome specific carburetor, rear window latch or a thousand other GMC motorhome specific items.  Our suppliers carry these low turnover items that you need when you need them.  As you, know, it costs money to buy and maintain inventory.  In order to stay in business, our suppliers make up for the costs associated with low turnover items by also supplying higher turnover parts at reasonable prices.  Many times their prices are the same or even lower than local suppliers and sometimes they might be a bit higher.  However, we need to buy all we can from them in order to keep them around for when we need the "unique to our coaches" items.  A huge added benefit to dealing with them is when you call it's like talking to an old friend who loves the GMC motorhome as much as you do.  A guy who will answer a question when you're stumped and, after you meet him personally at a rally, will inquire about your family or your health.  Todd, these are people to treat well, to be a friend to, and to support.   A long time ago my parents, and likely yours, told me if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all.  That remains good advise for all of us. 
All the best,
Tom Whitton26 foot updated GMCPaducah, KY

[Jeanette Hodges via Gmclist]

Well said Tom

Sent from my iPhone

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

In the same light-
HP. You want the least amount of power that still gives enough ability to pass and make grades

Octane- you want the lowest octane that does not ping under the conditions you have set up.

Batteries- you want the smallest CCA that will start you in the coldest conditions expected and still have some small reserve. Larger batteries
present a lower impedance to alternator ( even when fully charged) and cost economy.

The list could go on....
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[John Phillips via Gmclist]

I want a reliable drive train that will take me over the mountain passes in
the united states as well as a 32.000 lb. 400 HP Diesel pusher with a
6-speed transmission.

--

*John Phillips*

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

It's a thin area between insult and condescension in which advice is given. Now and again the presentation crosses the line on either side of it,
unintentionally. It happens, suck it up and go on, and try not to repeat. At times you'll have no choice.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

Sorry I had to take a couple days off on this topic that seems to have touched a nerve. Plus I was camping at a bluegrass festival with the GMC last
week so that made ignoring this easy.

Deb wrote: "Todd - as a relatively new owner myself, I can say that I also took offence at your comments regarding "call vendor X" so you can pay

double. You say you did not mean any offense. Well it certainly sounded like you were accusing him and other vendors on this site of overcharging."

Deb, are you a vendor? If not, seriously? This offended you?

Someone had mentioned that they could use front wheel bearings as an example of why we so desperately need to be able to call the Jims (and tie up how
many hours of their days?). Without this, someone could easily give me the part numbers for the bearing components which would be the wrong parts and
self destruct quickly since the center spacer ring would most likely be the wrong dimension. So I'll take that example and use it in my personal
experience.

Knowing it was a SET23 I called a few old school bearing places in the area and one of them had a NOS set on the shelf, Timken brand, and since it had
been sitting there for 20 years or so, he dusted it off and sold it to me for $30. There's a case where a little bit of community knowledge was able
to save me, not 2X, but 4X the cost of the bearing! Now am I supposed to send $90 to Applied to make up for it?

I also couldn't swallow the $200 cost for each fuel tank sending unit, so I bought $50 ones from RockAuto and modified them to work in our shallow
tanks. So instead of $400 I paid $100 using a little bit of time and tools, but no knowledge or info from this forum. I just didn't want to pay 4X,
should I send Applied the $300 I saved?

You can ask JimK to check his records, I've actually sent him a _whole_ lot more than that in the 3-4 months I've owned this GMC. He has my Mastercard
on file and ordering from him is way too easy. Rest assured, any money I'm 'saving' is going to go to the vendors eventually, it will just be on
another part I need!

I've been doing some cross checking and it's more like 125% to 130% on the parts I bought from the vendors, not 200%. The prices are quite reasonable
for reassurance that the part will work and be of the highest quality. My off-hand comment about a 2X price was inaccurate on common over the counter
parts. In my mind I was averaging in the bearing and sending units and that wasn't a fair way to calculate the markup.

Back to the root issue, I'd rather have both a community with the knowledge that they are willing to share, and vendors that continue to meet our
needs. What frustrates me, and was the reason for the off-hand 2x cost comment, is that all too often the comments on this board are 'just call the
vendor' instead of 'here's the information (in a well organized website?), you can look locally if you're in a rush and if not the vendors have it,
you'll just have to wait for the shipping'.

Someone else mentioned 'we need to support them, we depend on them', and that's the other thing that doesn't sit well with me. I hate the idea of
being dependent, I'd rather have the information and make up my own mind. Usually it will be to order from our vendors anyway but at my choice!

Right now I'm looking at an electronic cruise control system and after choosing one online I found that Applied has the whole setup for less than the
sum of the parts I was looking at, plus instructions. So, hat's off to Applied.

Sorry to have highjacked this LS swap thread with the above blasphemy. I'm looking forward to hearing about the LS swap if someone is doing one.

--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist]

JohnL455 wrote on Fri, 23 August 2019 10:27

> In the same light-
> HP. You want the least amount of power that still gives enough ability to pass and make grades
>
> Octane- you want the lowest octane that does not ping under the conditions you have set up.
>
> Batteries- you want the smallest CCA that will start you in the coldest conditions expected and still have some small reserve. Larger batteries
> present a lower impedance to alternator ( even when fully charged) and cost economy.
>
> The list could go on....

Actually this would be a good thread on it's own. The things you list do make sense, but I have not thought of them in such way. Please feel free to
start a new thread and keep the list going. I think others might find it useful too.
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA

[Justin Brady via Gmclist]

I have been guilty of the same line of thinking many times.

I too get annoyed at the "call them" or "call me".
In my eyes why not spend that 10 minutes that you're going to be on the phone typing out a response so we can all see it, and more importantly so that
future owners can see it.

The knowledge base here is aging, rapidly. If we don't preserve the knowledge it's going to go away. Having private telephone conversations rather
than typing it out here is not going to help that problem.


I also agree on the website front, but I'm not going to undertake fixing it as Im not retired yet and I don't have time :)
There's is such a massive amount of knowledge and skill here that it would take a lifetime to properly catalog.

That being said I love being able to call or email Jim or Nick and say "what parts do I need, ok send them to me" and have them show up without worry.
It's a real convenience that most other communities don't have. I'm ok with markup for that convenience.




tmsnyder wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 19:16

Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

Having had more experience helping technicians walk through
mechanical issues, I feel I know when I need to have TWO WAY communication
with people.
If it is an easy answer I will answer it so all can see it.
I do run a multimillion corporation here so I tend to keep things short,
and the GMC portion takes up 75% and earns us 35%.
So knock me own for asking them to call me.
I am 76 and going to be 77 soon,so those that want to take over can do so.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

Darned young Whippersnappers! :-)

Ken "Goin' On 83" H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, Troy-Bilt APU, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com


On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 5:36 PM Jim Kanomata via Gmclist <
gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> ...

> I am 76 and going to be 77 soon,so those that want to take over can do so.

> ...

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Well, I'm somewhere in da middle. 79. I called FMCA this afternoon and
added 5 years to my membership. My current one is up in 2020. Cost? $200.00.
Such a deal.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Adolph Santorine via Gmclist]

So at 60, I am a whippersnapper!

Now I’m paid up until 2028!

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission