Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
*Olds 455* test data with an uncertain pedigree (Toro or not? Test
conditions?) and it showed a torque at 2800 and below of about *398*. No
data below 2000, but other tests implied a peak torque at 1200 to 1600 rpm.
Peak hp was 234 at 3600.
*Cadillac 500 EFI* - peak torque *395* at 1200 and 1600 rpm. Peak hp 225
at 3600. The engine was knock limited and spark was retarded about 10
degrees from MBT at most rpms. Both of these are consistent with other big
GM engines built at the time(except for the knock-limited part). Max
torquewas always below 2000 rpm and peak hp was never above 4000.
That's not
counting performance engines like the Chevy 427 or the Chrysler Hemi, of
course.
Olds 350 EFI (Cadillac Seville) - peak torque 290 at 1200, peak power 190
at 4400 and still rising. Not knock limited.
If the Cad 500 were tested on today's fuels would it be knock-limited?
Don't know.
.
Hopefully this data will be useful to somebody. GaryC
-------------------------------
I love, ( I do it because I can), but it would be hard to make an informed
decision on these engines based upon the reported performance vs the dyno
test data.....
gene
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Greg and April
<gregan...@earthlink.net>wrote:
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
S. Williams
Here's an article by Larry Weidner and Jim Wagner on swapping to a Caddy 500.
http://www.gmcws.org/Tech/Caddy_Swap.pdf
Here's a link to two companies that are Caddy 500 specialists:
Maximum Torque Specialties - http://www.500cid.com/
The Cad Co - http://www.cad500parts.com/
Unfortunately the Master Caddy builder, Jerry Potter, has retired.
There is a book entitled "Big Inch Cadillac" which has a bunch of good dope on how to build a 540 C.I. Caddy. I did a Google search
but it appears it's out of print.
As far as the advantages to swapping to a Caddy goes I would suggest that you do a Google search for Cadillac 500 as it will return
a ton of articles about that engine.
I reckon I read every bloody one of them and came to the conclusion that IMHO the Caddy 500 is the best engine that GM ever built.
Oh oh, I'm in trouble now!
I have one here in Sydney will be setup to run on AutoGas.
Sammy, JimK out in Fremont has an EFI / twin turbo charged / Caddy 540 in his personal GMC. HE has the braggin' rights so it's not
worth anyone else's time to try for them! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
While looking over some of the various For Sale lists of GMC's, I have
noticed that a number of them have the Cadillac 500 engine, what can folks
tell me about that engine ( how do they compare with the 403 and the 455 ),
pros and cons of using it - and other things like that?
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sammy Williams" <bd5...@gmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 13:10
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Never had a GMC with a 455. But my 78 Royale came with a really great runnin 403. Did a full pull,,,,Manny tranny, .020 over 500 Caddy. Or 507ci. Edle intake and a "bunch" of other mods. Before it felt like a big motorhome. Now it feels like a van. I,ve had a 33' 16000lb southwind with a 454. A 24' Broughm with a 460(hugh sucking sound,,,8mpg always,,,not 8.2 or 8.5) and a 21' Starflight with a V10(now that was a hotrod). The GMC now drives like a loaded van!!!! Stops real well now with the Hubler conversion!,,,,,PL
So CADDY powered GMC's rule! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
No, because they made their fortunes selling Olds parts (and still do).
JR Wheeler NC/OR
> [Original Message]
> From: gene Fisher <mr.er...@gmail.com>
> To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Date: 1/9/2012 9:18:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
> ever wonder why Mondello, and Patterson, ( our two most famous builders) ,
> never liked Cads. and still do not ?
>
> gene
>
did not like 403 much either,
bad cooling , viper,vampire, etc, or something, like the cad ;>)
gene
> JR Wheeler NC/OR
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
For the same reason that Maximum Torque Specialties, and the Cadillac Company don't like Oldsmobile engines! ;-)
Also there are:
Chevy people and Ford people
Holden people and Ford people
Maserati people and Ferrari people
Honda people and Nissan people
Jaguar people and Aston Martin people
And so on ad infinitum - or at least until you run out permutations! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
ever wonder why Mondello, and Patterson, ( our two most famous builders) ,
never liked Cads. and still do not ?
gene
_______________________________________________
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyword=Big+Inch+Cadillac&mtype=B&hs.x=33&hs.y=17
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=6220343344&afn_sr=para¶_l=0
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 15:46
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> There is a book entitled "Big Inch Cadillac" which has a bunch of good
> dope on how to build a 540 C.I. Caddy. I did a Google search
> but it appears it's out of print.
>
_______________________________________________
Thanks, I already have one and have read it cover to cover a number of times. Information in that book (along with other sources)
lead me to state "Caddy 500's Rule!" ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
Â
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
They are out of print but I found 2 used copies of Big Inch Cadillac @ $35
US.
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyword=Big+Inch+Cadillac&mtype=B&hs.x=33&hs.y=17
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=6220343344&afn_sr=para¶_l=0
Greg H.
and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
example:
Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke. To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket stroker crank.
What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block with any other brand."
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
The Cadillac 472 has a 4.060 inch stroke, the 500 has a 4.304, both have a
4.300 inch bore.
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I really don't care,
>
> and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
>
> but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
>
> example:
>
>
> Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
> Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
> Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke.
> To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket
> stroker crank.
>
> What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
> Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block
> with any other brand."
_______________________________________________
We're just a havin' friendly chat about the merits of the Caddy and the Olds; BOTH of which are good engines!
As far as "but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine."
I AGREE 100%!!!
I noted that the "Caddy 500 is the best engine that GM ever built"
I've read a ton of articles on the 500 to form that opinion. Here's an article that I read which provided the icing on the cake!
YES, I realize that this engine would be TOTALLY inappropriate in a GMC. It convinced me to follow Jerry Potters advice as far as
how to build the LPG engine for The Blue Streak.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/viewall.html
The Caddy 500 is a great engine; however, it is far from the world's greatest engine. That discussion could / would go on FOREVER!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
I understand basic 4 cycle theory and I can change oil and gap a sparkplug,
but if I ever really open an engine up, the magic smoke goes away, and it
never runs again.
Things like torque and horsepower, are nebulous things that do not make any
sense to me, other than if you want a vehicle to move, you have to have some
of both - to much of one and not enough of the other and you may not get
anyplace, anytime soon.
This is why engine specs may as well be ancient Egyptian for all that I can
make heads or tails of it, and web searches on them only confuse me
further - I just am not able to separate the wheat from the chaff, with this
subject.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 20:39
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Greg,
Thanks, I already have one and have read it cover to cover a number of
times. Information in that book (along with other sources)
lead me to state "Caddy 500's Rule!" ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
_______________________________________________
Second runner up would have to be for a UP 4-6-6-4 "Challenger".
LOL
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 21:58
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> The Caddy 500 is a great engine; however, it is far from the world's
> greatest engine. That discussion could / would go on FOREVER!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
_______________________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
From Rob:
I AGREE 100%!!!
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/viewall.html
Regards,
Rob M.
example:
I'm not just throwing it out there, I'm trying to understand the how both of
them would affect a GMC at any given time.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "gene Fisher" <mr.er...@gmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 13:59
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
gene
_______________________________________________
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Johnny Bridges" <jhbr...@ymail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:33
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
It depends on what you're used to, as well as what yopu're gonna do with it.
For a given displacement, an undersquare engine tendfs toward torque and
power peaks at lower RPM than a square or oversquare design - at trhe cost
of top end RPM due to increased piston speed. As long as it's a big slow
turning torquey design, you can put giant bearings in it without worrying
about high speed friction or iling, and the thing will run happily pretty
much forever - a great idea for a GMC, and not a bad one for a large sedan
that Grandma and Grandpa tool down to the local pub in silence and sikly
smooth comfort. Surely you can hotrod it, but it's a silk purse form a sow's
ear. And, what's sillieer than a one eared sow with a silk purse anyhow?
--johnny
'76 23'transmode norris
'76 palm beach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg and April" <gregan...@earthlink.net>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Greg H.
_______________________________________________
there is not a nickel's difference between these two,
but
more important is what has to be done to make a change
and
that you are able to make a change
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
:-D
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
"Tzetze Fly"
What I don't understand ( and I really am trying to ) is whether the
differences between the Cady 500 and the Olds 455 are enough to choose
between a coach with the Cady or a coach with the 455, when they appear
similar in most other respects.
The question is not about swapping an engine, but choosing between one coach
for sale and another coach for sale, when I'm evaluating them online.
""Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall.
Torque is how far you drag the wall with you.
:d
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
"Tzetze Fly"
""
Ha ha --that's a good way to put it. Actually HP=(T x RPM)/5252, so they are joined at the hip. The question is how you want to distribute it. Personally I like a bit higher RPM engine. Some of you may have had an older Dodge/Cummins truck combination. Those were very low RPM diesels and once you were over 50mph, you couldn't pass anyone since you had no mere gears and no more RPM left. That's sort of an extreme case in one direction.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Jarvis" <TheJ...@carolina.rr.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 14:22
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall.
> Torque is how far you drag the wall with you.
>
> :-D
>
> Dan in NC
> Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
> "Tzetze Fly"
>
_______________________________________________
I appreciate you providing the response below as it indicates that we've been wasting our time providing technical responses to
questions you have posed as by your own admission below you don't comprehend them.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
<shrug> You have the advantage on me then.
I understand basic 4 cycle theory and I can change oil and gap a sparkplug,
but if I ever really open an engine up, the magic smoke goes away, and it
never runs again.
Things like torque and horsepower, are nebulous things that do not make any
sense to me, other than if you want a vehicle to move, you have to have some
of both - to much of one and not enough of the other and you may not get
anyplace, anytime soon.
This is why engine specs may as well be ancient Egyptian for all that I can
make heads or tails of it, and web searches on them only confuse me
further - I just am not able to separate the wheat from the chaff, with this
subject.
Greg H.
Taking into consideration what you have noted regarding your mechanical skills I'll give you the simple answer.
Maintaining a GMC isn't easy, adding a Caddy 500 to the mix further complicates the issue.
Regards,
Rob M.
Â
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
I understand that torque pulls.
What I don't understand ( and I really am trying to ) is whether the
differences between the Cady 500 and the Olds 455 are enough to choose
between a coach with the Cady or a coach with the 455, when they appear
similar in most other respects.
The question is not about swapping an engine, but choosing between one coach
for sale and another coach for sale, when I'm evaluating them online.
Greg H.
_______________________________________________
George DV
76 Glenbrook
455 HEI Alcoas
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4733 - Release Date: 01/09/12
I own a '86 Canadian LandCruiser, in the middle of the US - it's not like I
am able to just take it to the dealer.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 15:06
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
For the younger group in the class it was the difference in your '69
Chevelle 396/GTO Judge 400 (fill in as appropriate) or GMC 455 frame
(content) slowly rusting away vs. crashing into the telephone pole.
You had to "Keep It Simple for...
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN.
I wish you all the best in your quest to get a GMC.
Goodbye,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
It doesn't stop me from trying to understand, nor does it stop me from being
able to take care of much of the peripheral stuff.
I own a '86 Canadian LandCruiser, in the middle of the US - it's not like I
am able to just take it to the dealer.
Greg H.
""Are we basically like the differences between kinetic energy vs. working
energy?
.
Greg H.
""
No, torque is force while horsepower is energy. It's the same as wattage, voltage and amperage
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT...@AOL.COM>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 15:54
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
>
Greg,
If you are thinking about which engine/coach might be best for you to maintain -- with the original configuration engine, you can generally use the GMC maintenance manual as a go-by. Plus, you can call JimK or JimB and they can give you phone instructions for a "stock" engine.
Once you go to a Cadillac engine -- while there are many experts -- the type of help and availability of help changes.
I love all of the various combinations -- but I am keeping my 73 coach engine/drive train as near stock as possible. It's easier for me to self-maintain.
Your experience/thoughts may be different.
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
I think the engine choice is far enough down the check list as to be pretty
much irrelevant.
If I had to choose between two similar coaches a '78 and a '76, I would pick
the '78 even though it has a 403 engine and the '76 has a 455. Picking
between two identical '78s one with a 403 and one with a 500, I would still
pick the 403. I would sooner have the unmodified unit.
I think the condition of the coach far more important than the size of the
engine.
In the unlikely event you find two perfect coaches and the only difference
is the engine you may be forced to make a decision based on the engine.
Let us know if this happens as there are a number of folks looking for
perfect coaches.
Dave
That, is the information that I needed. With performance numbers flying
around as thick as mosquitoes in Florida or Texas, and the emphasis that
they are often given, it's easy to overlook other factors.
Thank you.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Sexton" <dennis...@aol.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 16:25
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Richard & Carol Brown
1974 Eleganza SE
"DILLIGAF"
Lindale, Tx. 75771
So in a nutshell, power is what counts, but the shape of the power curve is important, too.
Gary Casey
Previously from Greg:
So when it concerns a GMC, when is having more horsepower a good thing andÂ
when is having more torque a good thing?
I'm not just throwing it out there, I'm trying to understand the how both ofÂ
them would affect a GMC at any given time.
.
Greg H.
No, torque is not what makes diesel engines so good at pulling large loads - fuel economy is. Â That's the only reason diesels have replaced gasoline-fueled engines in trucks.
Gary
Greg;
I'll resend the information on our 455
Torque 477.1 at 3100 RPM's
This is the RPM range we want for pulling.
At that engine speed we are traveling at about 65 MPH
Using Jim K's 3:70 final drive
HP is 349.4 at 4600 RPM's
We don't need no stinking horse power.
We need torque to pull our motor homes.
Torque is what make the Diesel engines so nice for pulling large loads.
You need RPM for speed.
As in NASCAR, drag racing or rice burners.
My love for the 455 started with jet boats,
With jet boats you need power "torque!" in the lower RPM range.
I built all of our 455's to run in the 3,500 to 4.000 range and kicked someÂ
butt on the lower Colorado River.
It was me or my friend with his 454 Chevy that would take on the kids everÂ
afternoon.
Howard
PS This is why we don't need some high RPM engine builder.
We need some one who knows how to build torque engines.
I always equate this discussion to loosening a lug nut. If you exert 100ft lbs and it doesn't turn, you haven't done any work.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Gary Casey wrote on Wed, 11 January 2012 07:40
> <snip>
> No, torque is not what makes diesel engines so good at pulling large loads - fuel economy is. Â That's the only reason diesels have replaced gasoline-fueled engines in trucks.
>
> Gary
Gary is absolutely correct on this point. All you have to do is look at truck engine history. You will see that when the cost/capability of the manufacture of diesel fuel system parts came down, the first cost got competitive and the big gassers were gone in short order.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Greg and April wrote on Tue, 10 January 2012 15:31
> It sounds a bit like you are saying that a Cad 500 in its self is neither good nor bad in a GMC, as it depends more on what was done to the Cad 500 when it was installed - is this correct?
>
> Greg H.
Greg,
Now you have the Idea!!
If you had to choose between the two, the choice would not be Cad vs Olds. If you could get a Ken Henderson quality coach with a SB 350 in it, you should seriously consider it.
I myself would not be eager to jump into a coach that had been refit with a Cad 500 just because I could not get parts by number from JimK. And, I am a serious wrench, but I do not like Easter Egg hunts.
If first cost is an issue, you are standing on the wrong pier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <casey...@yahoo.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 04:40
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Brown" <wings7...@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 00:59
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
You can't really compare a gas engine to a diesel without a lot of caveats. Â All modern diesels are highly supercharged, while most of the gas engines we are talking about (except Jim's !) are not. Â A naturally-aspirated diesel will almost certainly not produce the torque of a similar gas engine, and that is because only about 60% of the inhaled oxygen is actually consumed by combustion - a gas engine consumes essentially 100%. Â To make it worse, the rpm capability of a diesel is limited by the short time available to mix the fuel and air, not to mention the inherent ignition delay. Â Less torque and less rpm means less power. Â So why do diesels have the reputation for producing high torque? Â In order to produce enough power, they are usually made in higher displacements. Â Note that the Cummins engine in the Dodge pickups has a displacement of (I think) 7.5 liters, bigger than the normal 5.7-liter gas engine and it is turbocharged besides. Â Still,
it produces less power than the 5.7 (I think I'm right on that). Â Most modern truck diesels run manifold pressures way north of 2 atmospheres, and there isn't any fundamental limit to the boost that they can tolerate. Â So yes, the Cummins pickup engine might produce more torque than the 5.7 gas, but it's still considered a dog. Â I'll bet Jim's 500+ gas engine with the turbos will develop around 1,000 ft-lb of torque - in a lighter weight package than the Cummins. Â And still be able to produce way over twice the Cummin's hp. Â All in a lighter, smaller and cheaper package. Â But if you want to talk fuel consumption, ah, that's different story. Â You make a good point on the price of diesel fuel if one is thinking about investing in a diesel. Â Diesel fuel contains about 10% more energy per gallon than gasoline and the price is about 10% more the last I looked - a break-even in terms of energy purchased per dollar. Â The efficiency of a diesel might
be 30% higher than a gas engine, so it still make economic sense if you drive a LOT of miles. Â Like in an 18-wheeler. Â In a lightweight car the extra operating expense of a diesel - more expensive batteries, more frequent oil changes, etc. make it a discouraging proposition. Â In Europe diesel fuel is subsidized as a way of reducing overall oil consumption, but does that make sense?
take care,
Gary
Gary
Please re-read
I never said I had 281 HP at 3100 RPM
The Torque is 477.1 at 3100 RPM
I run at around 2900 to 3100 RMP
The Horse Power is 349.4 at 4600
If I ran at 4600 RPM the engine would not last.
I said nothing about pulling a trailer.
I said nothing about MPG
By the way we do get around 10 MPH unless we are pulling a grade.
I only passed along what works for me.
I don't think you can get the same Torque out of a gas engine that you canÂ
out of a Diesel engine.
With the price of diesel being higher then the price of gas its about aÂ
brake even as far as the economy.
Please go and enjoy your day.
Thanks You
Howard
Alpine Ca
----- Original Message -----Â
From: "Gary Casey" <casey...@yahoo.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 04:40
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Howard,
So what you are saying is that you have 281 horsepower available at 3100Â
rpm. That is what enables you to pull the trailer at speed. Once you put inÂ
the requirement for speed you need to be talking about horsepower. TorqueÂ
does nothing unless it moves something, and that takes horsepower. Yes, ifÂ
you need 281 horsepower and want to limit the rpm to 3100, then you need 477Â
ft-pounds to create that horsepower. I'm sure a standard 455 will also pullÂ
the same trailer, just not as fast. You need horsepower. If you want toÂ
accelerate fast you need horsepower. If the rpm is limited by some outsideÂ
factor (like wanting to run in 3rd gear at 65 mph, then you need enoughÂ
torque to get that power. But I doubt that you need 281 horsepower to pullÂ
your trailer at 65 mph. You would use up all 50 gallons of gas in 140Â
miles - less than 3 mpg and I doubt that's the situation. Rather, with thatÂ
much reserve torque available you can climb a grade or
pass a car without downshifting, and that's a good thing. But I couldÂ
easily build a 350 with more than that much power at 5,000 rpm. I couldÂ
probably climb the same grade by downshifting to second and running 4,600Â
rpm. Nothing wrong with that either. Power is what moves things (fast). AndÂ
we always care about going fast.
No, torque is not what makes diesel engines so good at pulling large loads -Â
fuel economy is. That's the only reason diesels have replacedÂ
gasoline-fueled engines in trucks.
You mention another consideration - engine availability.
Which begs the question - What happens 10-15 years down the line, with fewer
engines and fewer mechanics are available that know how to work on older
engines? What is the closest thing to a modern engine that will go in a
coach?
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Brown" <wings7...@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 1:59
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
The Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg and April" <>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:39:44 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Thank you.
You mention another consideration - engine availability.
Which begs the question - What happens 10-15 years down the line, with fewer
engines and fewer mechanics are available that know how to work on older
engines? What is the closest thing to a modern engine that will go in a
coach?
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
You said - " If you want to accelerate fast you need horsepower. "
Isn't this partially qualified by the weight of the vehicle - or in other
words, you need to have a given horsepower to vehicle weight ratio, to
achieve a given amount of acceleration?
The reason I ask, is because as I mentioned a little earlier in this thread,
I have a Canadian LandCruiser, but more than that it was a 4 cyl diesel, and
while I could get about 20 mpg with it around town, it was only putting out
around 85 hp while the LandCruiser weighed in at around 5000 lbs - I could
get up to 65 mph with it, but it took 3-4 minutes to do so, unless I was
going down hill with a tailwind. But the wife's little car weighs in at
1700-2000 lbs and engine only puts out about 70 hp, but it could outrun the
Land Cruiser from a dead stop.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <casey...@yahoo.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:40
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
If you want to accelerate fast you need horsepower.
_______________________________________________
Well, the GM (Chevrolet) Vortec series V8 out of the 1 ton trucks
could be "persuaded" to fit, and has twice (hearsay -- at least once)
into GMC coaches.
S. Williams
Be prepared to spend money...
Greg,
I would argue that is all the more reason to keep it stock. In 10-15 years specialty vendors will be better able to help you maintain a GMC with stock engine. Both parts and service personnel. I say this as I compare GMC motorhomes to british cars and other vintage marques -- more parts available today than 15 years ago.
Besides -- by then, the truly original survivors will be selling at high prices and be special draws at Jackson-Barrett and Pebble Beach. Of course -- that's just my opinion.
Dennis
Greg and April wrote on Wed, 11 January 2012 13:39
> Thank you.
>
> You mention another consideration - engine availability.
>
> Which begs the question - What happens 10-15 years down the line, with fewer
> engines and fewer mechanics are available that know how to work on older
> engines? What is the closest thing to a modern engine that will go in a
> coach?
> .
>
> Greg H.
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
- what it is that I absolutely need to have in the product.
- what would be nice in the product, but do not have to have right away.
- what really doesn't matter.
But in order to identify what those three things are, I have to see what is
being offered, and compare the options against each other.
That way, once I have my list of 'must haves' down, I can keep my eye open
for a product that meets those qualifications - it doesn't matter if the
product shows up 3 months later or 3 years later, I'll know it when I see
it.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Colie" <matt7...@gmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:21
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
If first cost is an issue, you are standing on the wrong pier.
Matt
--
_______________________________________________
""I work on the idea that before I buy anything over $75, I make a list of
priorities:
- what it is that I absolutely need to have in the product.
- what would be nice in the product, but do not have to have right away.
- what really doesn't matter.
But in order to identify what those three things are, I have to see what is
being offered, and compare the options against each other.
That way, once I have my list of 'must haves' down, I can keep my eye open
for a product that meets those qualifications - it doesn't matter if the
product shows up 3 months later or 3 years later, I'll know it when I see
it.
.
""
That doesn't work for me when I'm at Applebees happy hour :)
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Greg,
Fine to be a deliberate buyer -- go to a GMC rally and attend an open house. Check the black list for local GMC owners and make a friend -- visit their coach and see what you like. Read the archives, look over bdub's and gene's sites for ideas; peruse the GMC photo site.
But, while folks love to talk GMCs -- some questions may wear thin -- especially since many have been asked before by newbies, wannabes and repeated answering can be trying for some members.
For example, how about a modern engine, how about a six speed transmission, anyone ever go all electric, how about fuel injection. how about blah blah blah.....not that we have thought of everything nor discussed everything but I hope you understand.
Respectfully,
Dennis
Greg and April wrote on Wed, 11 January 2012 14:19
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
_______________________________________________
Greg,
Since apparently you are just in the looking stage, may I suggest you start over with the Bovee Guide to GMC's
http://gmceast.com/about/guide/index.html
It contains links to an incredible amount of information -- you can do your inspections/reviews and perhaps direct you search.
You should also try to articulate how you intend to use the GMC -- how many adults, children, pets to travel where, when for how long boon-dock and such -- how do you want to sleep, how large are you, and on and on -- all enter into finding the right coach.
For many, the answer was in finding a decent coach and modifying it to their needs and expectations,
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Gary Casey
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:32 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
" In Europe diesel fuel is subsidized as a way of reducing overall oil
consumption, but does that make sense?"
"take care,"
"Gary"
Sorry Gary, But that is just not true!
There is no subsidizing on any fuel, only a reduction in road tax for VERY
fuel efficient passenger cars.
Marc Hogenboom
'73 Painted Desert Diesel
Madrid NM
Gary,
You said - " If you want to accelerate fast you need horsepower. "
Isn't this partially qualified by the weight of the vehicle - or in otherÂ
words, you need to have a given horsepower to vehicle weight ratio, toÂ
achieve a given amount of acceleration?
The reason I ask, is because as I mentioned a little earlier in this thread,Â
I have a Canadian LandCruiser, but more than that it was a 4 cyl diesel, andÂ
while I could get about 20 mpg with it around town, it was only putting outÂ
around 85 hp while the LandCruiser weighed in at around 5000 lbs - I couldÂ
get up to 65 mph with it, but it took 3-4 minutes to do so, unless I wasÂ
going down hill with a tailwind.  But the wife's little car weighs in atÂ
1700-2000 lbs and engine only puts out about 70 hp, but it could outrun theÂ
Land Cruiser from a dead stop.
Greg H.
2 adults and 2 teens, 1 of the adults and 1 of the teens are shorter than
average.
Most use would be to visit relatives in other states ( I refuse to fly
anymore ) - most overnight stops if needed would be at campgrounds.
Boondocking would be limited - unlikely to last more than 2 days ( if that )
perhaps a couple of times a year.
Temporary retreat for me, when the wife is ma or when I have a migraine and
the house is to noisy, and I need quiet.
It's my thought that a modified 26' 8 ( preferable ) or a modified 26' 2
layout would be near optimum for my expected use.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Sexton" <dennis...@aol.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 14:28
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
>
> Greg,
>
> Since apparently you are just in the looking stage, may I suggest you
> start over with the Bovee Guide to GMC's
>
> http://gmceast.com/about/guide/index.html
>
> It contains links to an incredible amount of information -- you can do
> your inspections/reviews and perhaps direct you search.
>
> You should also try to articulate how you intend to use the GMC -- how
> many adults, children, pets to travel where, when for how long boon-dock
> and such -- how do you want to sleep, how large are you, and on and on --
> all enter into finding the right coach.
> For many, the answer was in finding a decent coach and modifying it to
> their needs and expectations,
>
> Dennis
>
_______________________________________________
What is the difference between actually paying someone ( direct subsidy ) to
use a given product and taxing a competing product ( indirect subsidy ) at a
higher rate equal to the what the direct payout would have been? Nothing
realy.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Hogenboom" <marc.ho...@hotmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
This swap was done by Dyno something-or-other (now defunct) up in Squiem (Sp?) Washington a few times with varying degrees of
success as reported here on the GMCnet.
Dave Lenzi has done it to perfection!
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=36474
Yep, you'll need deep pockets to do this!
No I don't know how much and no, I am not going to bother Dave and ask. As J.P Morgan said "If you have to ask the price, you can't
afford it!"
Regards,
Rob M.
Marc Hogenboom
'73 Painted Desert Diesel
Madrid NM
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Greg and April
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:09 PM
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Hogenboom" <marc.ho...@hotmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 23:25
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> No such thing in the Netherlands, or Germany, Belgium, France, Italy,
> Spain,
> GB, or any other European country as far as I know.
> How do you come up with this stuff?
>
> Marc Hogenboom
> '73 Painted Desert Diesel
> Madrid NM
_______________________________________________
Don't waste your time.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Hogenboom
No such thing in the Netherlands, or Germany, Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, GB, or any other European country as far as I know.
How do you come up with this stuff?
Marc
_______________________________________________
US federal tax on gasoline - $.184/gallon, diesel $.244/gallon
Germany tax on gasoline - $5.03/gallon, diesel $2.68/gallon
In Europe the tax represents about half the retail price, and the tax on diesel is about half the tax on gasoline. Â Is that a subsidy? Â I think so, but you be the judge.
Gary
I previously said:
" In Europe diesel fuel is subsidized as a way of reducing overall oilÂ
consumption, but does that make sense?"
"take care,"
"Gary"
Marc replied:
Sorry Gary, But that is just not true!
There is no subsidizing on any fuel, only a reduction in road tax for VERYÂ
fuel efficient passenger cars.
Marc Hogenboom
Marc
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Gary Casey
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:17 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Perhaps I was a little loose with my terms, but I think Greg agrees - in
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Hogenboom" <marc.ho...@hotmail.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:40
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> If that were all the tax you are right.
> However there is also a "road tax" , different names in various countries,
> that is much higher for Diesel vehicles wich evens it out on avarage use.
>
> Marc
>
_______________________________________________
The government decides diesel is less than pump gas to help truckers, and the market takes advantage of it.
Proof once again that the government is too bloated and cumbersome to outsmart those pesky consumers with their own best interest in mind.
Dolph Santorine
Do...@DolphSantorine.com
Phone: 304-219-3100
Cell: 740-312-5342
Excuse me for not being my usual wordy and sporadically verbose self. This message is sent from my iPad, which is, in many ways, an iPhone on steroids.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. Few long dead dinosaurs were involved. A large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Dolph Santorine
ado...@Santorine.org
Excuse me for not being my usual wordy and sporadically verbose self. This message is sent from my iPhone.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolph Santorine" <do...@dolphsantorine.com>
To: <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 14:05
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
> No, in Europe it's lower. And people drive Diesel cars there.
>
> Dolph Santorine
>
> ado...@Santorine.org
>
_______________________________________________
Greetings:
I WANT this.... 8o
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=42255&title=bmw-v12&cat=5988
:lol:
Carl P.
76 Birchaven
South of Fremont
Any idea who's building this?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: noi
Greetings:
I WANT this.... 8o
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=42255&title=bmw-v12&cat=5988
:lol:
Carl
_______________________________________________
Rob,
I find “googling” harebrained ideas a form of relaxation :roll: – Other than coming across this:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107913-5.html
Is about all I know of it!
Carl P.
76 Birchaven
South of Fremont
_______________________________________________
Thanks for the link! I reviewed all 5 pages of this post and this guy is seriously talented! A problem installing this engine in a
GMC would be having to install the spacer between the final drive and the transmission, I made the assumption that he did this to
allow the drive shaft to clear the engine mains. The spacer causes the engine and transmission assembly to move rearwards and in a
GMC it would hit the cockpit steps. Obviously you could "fix" that.
Regards,
Rob M.
PS - Does anybody know why Carl's emails have the "–" in them?
-----Original Message-----
From: noi
Rob,
I find “googling” harebrained ideas a form of relaxation :roll: – Other than coming across this:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107913-5.html
Is about all I know of it!
Carl
_______________________________________________
noi wrote on Fri, 13 January 2012 13:59
> Greetings:
>
> I WANT this.... 8o
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=42255&title=bmw-v12&cat=5988
>
> :lol:
>
> Carl P.
> 76 Birchaven
> South of Fremont
He is putting THAT in a Fiero!!! -- ??
<http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107913-5.html>
--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com
There are LOTS of Fieros with transverse Chevy V8's. An aquaintance has one with about 450 HP. Looks stock from the outside.There is also at LEAST 1 with a twin turbo NORTHSTAR. Yeah I guess that's like a hand grenade with the pin already pulled !!!
DAVE KING
Several friends own Fieros with 3800 Supercharged V6s in them
S. Williams
Dolph Santorine
Do...@DolphSantorine.com
Phone: 304-219-3100
Cell: 740-312-5342
Excuse me for not being my usual wordy and sporadically verbose self. This message is sent from my iPad, which is, in many ways, an iPhone on steroids.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. Few long dead dinosaurs were involved. A large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
I am currently GMCless. :)
Im working to change that shortly. :)
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
On 1/14/2012 5:51 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> noi wrote on Fri, 13 January 2012 13:59
>> Greetings:
>>
>> I WANT this.... 8o
>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=42255&title=bmw-v12&cat=5988
>>
>> :lol:
>>
>> Carl P.
>> 76 Birchaven
>> South of Fremont
>
> He is putting THAT in a Fiero!!! -- ??
> <http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107913-5.html>
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
(and shocking Mustang owners. lol)
WOW, Cad 500 vs 455 vs 454 vs 472, 500 t 475 hp, god, i am going to have to tlk to Jim K tommorow to design a willie bar for these GMC, hahaha, being that not many like the 403 like i do, does anyone have any 403's sitting aroung that are not wanted???, i have a 78 royale that has a 455, i'll trade it for a running 403?????
--
Miguel
1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, rear bath w/ a 403 that i love.
GMC name : The other woman