[GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
Bruce Hislop
I installed a replacement steering box back in September, a NAPA 27-7519. It was a major improvement, but still was loose in my opinion. I thought it was because when I was going down the road straight the box was not exactly centered, so i got an adjustable drag link to put the box in the center of its travel.
Its still no right in my mind. I can move the wheel about 2" before anything happens.... NO its not loose steering components, its all new there. BUT if you open the hood and turn the steering shaft right at the steering box you can see the pitman shaft move laterally before the arm starts to move the linkage at all.
I showed this to the NAPA guy and he agreed thats not right and got me another steering box. So in this box is a big yellow card stating the pitman shaft is suppose to have some lateral movement and that is normal and does not contribute to "loose steering"
Is 2" of steering wheel play normal on the GMC? It sure makes for a tiring drive.
--
Bruce Hislop,
S. Ontario Canada
77PB, 455
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Terry Skinner
getting from the auto parts are rebuilt in Mexico by combining used
parts. They have no idea if the box is any good. They are going to let
you figure that out. They will let you keep changing them till you
find one you will accept. Remember your box is different than most. Do
your self a favor and contact someone like RED CAP in Seattle. they
will set up a steering box exactly like you want. Any ratio including
variable. Steve F. had an outfit he was working with in S.D.
And Jim K, the purpose of this net is to help each other and learn
from each others experiences. If you really want to help us then
write a dissertation that we all can read and learn
from...............Terry
On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
--
Terry Skinner
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
Ken Henderson
I'm trying to understand "see the pitman shaft move laterally". After
visualizing the installation, I think perhaps you're saying the pitman
shaft moves axially (in and out of the box). I've have not been able to
find a specification for that movement. Perhaps Bill Brown can tell us
what it should be from his understudying with Don Wirth.
Whatever you decide to do about the adjustment of the box, I encourage
you to read Don Wirth's (and Bill Brown's) paper at
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf
before you touch anything.
2" play is NOT normal.
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
'76 X-Birchaven
'76 X-Palm Beach
Bruce Hislop wrote:
>
> I installed a replacement steering box back in September, a NAPA
> 27-7519. It was a major improvement, but still was loose in my
> opinion. I thought it was because when I was going down the road
> straight the box was not exactly centered, so i got an adjustable
> drag link to put the box in the center of its travel.
>
> Its still no right in my mind. I can move the wheel about 2" before
> anything happens.... NO its not loose steering components, its all
> new there. BUT if you open the hood and turn the steering shaft
> right at the steering box you can see the pitman shaft move laterally
> before the arm starts to move the linkage at all.
>
> I showed this to the NAPA guy and he agreed thats not right and got
> me another steering box. So in this box is a big yellow card stating
> the pitman shaft is suppose to have some lateral movement and that
> is normal and does not contribute to "loose steering"
>
> Is 2" of steering wheel play normal on the GMC? It sure makes for a
> tiring drive.
Ray Erspamer
Ray
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
The Malosco Cruiser (TZE368V101144)
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
----- Original Message ----
From: Terry Skinner <gmc...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:47:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
It has been my experience (first hand) that the "rebuilt" Box you are
getting from the auto parts are rebuilt in Mexico by combining used
parts. They have no idea if the box is any good. They are going to let
you figure that out. They will let you keep changing them till you
find one you will accept. Remember your box is different than most. Do
your self a favor and contact someone like RED CAP in Seattle. they
will set up a steering box exactly like you want. Any ratio including
variable. Steve F. had an outfit he was working with in S.D.
And Jim K, the purpose of this net is to help each other and learn
from each others experiences. If you really want to help us then
write a dissertation that we all can read and learn
from...............Terry
On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> I installed a replacement steering box back in September, a NAPA 27-7519. It was a major improvement, but still was loose in my opinion. I thought it was because when I was going down the road straight the box was not exactly centered, so i got an adjustable drag link to put the box in the center of its travel.
>
> Its still no right in my mind. I can move the wheel about 2" before anything happens.... NO its not loose steering components, its all new there. BUT if you open the hood and turn the steering shaft right at the steering box you can see the pitman shaft move laterally before the arm starts to move the linkage at all.
>
> I showed this to the NAPA guy and he agreed thats not right and got me another steering box. So in this box is a big yellow card stating the pitman shaft is suppose to have some lateral movement and that is normal and does not contribute to "loose steering"
>
> Is 2" of steering wheel play normal on the GMC? It sure makes for a tiring drive.
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Terry Skinner
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
Dan Gregg
Nope, 2 inch play is not good. I used to have that. I first replaced the steering box with a rebuilt Napa unit. That helped some. Jim K's mechanics finally fixed my steering. Drives like a new car now. I could not believe it. I am fortunate to have been able to visit Jim's shop with the GMC a couple of times. He has very good guys working there. They did not even ask Jim what he thought.
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
http://www.danandteri.blogspot.com
Halon Automatic Fire Extinguishers,
Rebuilt Fuel Sending Units
Bruce Hislop
Hi Ken,
What I mean by "Laterally" is not in and out, but back and forth as if the pitman shaft bearing is worn... and with a bit of a tilt up and down as if the internal bearing on the opposite side of the gear is even more worn.
I'm thinking maybe I should bite the bullet and take this new rebuilt steering box to a pro and have it done up right before I replace the one that is on there. Then I know i have a good unit and I can send this faulty one back.
There is a guy near Toronto about an hour from here, that is listed on bdub's site that comes highly recommended.
Ken Henderson
I've never even torn one of those boxes down, so I'm certainly no
expert. But looking at a the instructions and diagrams in the manual
(X7525), I don't see any excuse for lateral (radial) movement of the
pitman shaft -- it rides in needle bearings which shouldn't have much play.
Do you not still have your original box? If you've read Don Wirth's
paper, you know that the GMC (and, IIRC, 1/2t pickups) has special
travel stops in the box to limit turns to, IIRC, 3-1/2. Without those,
there's the opportunity to apply what I think would be excessive force
to the ends of the A-arms -- yep, 'way out there where it all comes
together.
I'd definitely have the expert do the box right. Without a good box,
nothing else can cure steering problems.
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
'76 X-Birchaven
'76 X-Palm Beach
Bruce Hislop wrote:
>
> Hi Ken, What I mean by "Laterally" is not in and out, but back and
> forth as if the pitman shaft bearing is worn... and with a bit of a
> tilt up and down as if the internal bearing on the opposite side of
> the gear is even more worn.
>
> I'm thinking maybe I should bite the bullet and take this new rebuilt
> steering box to a pro and have it done up right before I replace the
> one that is on there. Then I know i have a good unit and I can send
> this faulty one back.
>
> There is a guy near Toronto about an hour from here, that is listed
> on bdub's site that comes highly recommended.
Ken Burton
There is a good place in Michigan that will rebuild that box correctly. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of it. I'm hoping Paul Bartz will hop in here and give us the information.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Mr.erf ERFisher
http://users.california.com/%7Eeagle/steering.htm#gear
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhomeinfo.com/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhomeinfo.com/APC.html
Bruce Hislop
I just talked to Boje Hjelm at Racemate in Etobicoke. I'm going to send him the replacement steering box for him to go over before I install it. He'll change to ratio down for me and set it up nice.
Then I'll install it and should have a nice steering coach :)
Ray Erspamer
What exactly does this do ?
Thanks
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
78 Royale Center Kitchen
The Malosco Cruiser (TZE368V101144)
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:36:59 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
Bob de Kruyff
""What Ratio will he change it do ? This is an interesting thread. I replaced my steering box last summer with a Napa and adjusted my ride height to factory spec, my coach handles great. But I'm hearing a lot about this different steering ratio, the 12:1 vs the 17:13 stock.
What exactly does this do ?""
Ray--I used to do a lot of the ride and handling on various GM vehicles in my younger days. You have to be carefull about ratio changes. Typically, a family sedan would run around 16:1 and a sporty car such as a Camaro would run 12:1. There's an upside and downside either way. A faster ratio such as a 12:1 will have fewer turns lock to lock and will require less steering input for a given turn or ramp. At first, that all seems to be desireable, but it is very important that the rest of the vehicle chassis design and tuning is "up to it". A sudden steering input with a "fast" ratio can easily overpower the ability of a chassis to predictably handle it--resulting in over-correction, excessive roll (or leaning), tire break-away, and so on. Many times such maneuvers occur during an adrenalin rush such as when a deer runs in front of you. I'm sure there are folks here with the faster ratio that like it, so this is only my personal opinion, but I would think twice about it. A varia
ble ratio gear which is relatively tame on center, but progressively faster towards the ends is generally a better solution for vehicles like the GMC.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Ray Erspamer
So does the GMC have this "variable ratio" you talk about with it's 17:13 ?
(you can see how much I know about this subject) LOL
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
78 Royale Center Kitchen
The Malosco Cruiser (TZE368V101144)
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT...@AOL.COM>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:36:16 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
Bob de Kruyff
""So does the GMC have this "variable ratio" you talk about with it's 17:13 ""
I'm not familiar with the specifics of those numbers Ray, but if the ratio varies from 17:1 on center, to 13:1 towards the ends, it sounds like a nice possibility to me. There were lot's of combinations of gears available, and I'm mostly familiar with the passenger car combos, but the same idea applies. Also, it's important to separate ratio's and response from slop in the overall system. The last thing you want is to go to a faster ratio to compensate for looseness or slop. As you can tell by the various threads, a remanufactured gear does not automatically mean a well adjusted gear. This particular design (800 series) is extremely durable, and other than seal leaks, hardly ever needs to be rebuilt--usually adjustment by the book will suffice.
Ray Erspamer
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
78 Royale Center Kitchen
The Malosco Cruiser (TZE368V101144)
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT...@AOL.COM>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 10:11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
Ken Burton
Mr ERFisher wrote on Thu, 06 November 2008 05:29
> there is a rebuildere here fro Mi, is this the one?
> http://users.california.com/%7Eeagle/steering.htm#gear
>
> gene
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:23 AM, Ken Burton <n9...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > There is a good place in Michigan that will rebuild that box correctly.
> > Unfortunately I do not remember the name of it. I'm hoping Paul Bartz will
> > hop in here and give us the information.
> > --
> > Ken Burton - N9KB
> > 76 Palm Beach
> > Hebron, Indiana
Ye, That is him. I also see one listed in Ontario on your web site. That might be an even better choice for him. I know nothing about the Ontario guy.
Thanks Gene
Al Scott
What a difference!!! Installed new ratio gear box from Borge Hjelm Of
Racemate Ontario, Canada. Ph # 1-888- 42 5557. I'm disabled and Borge may
have given me a special rate. He only charged me $250 Canadian. I went to
Toronto with my GMC so I don't know what shipping/taxes would be.
Don't know who sent it, or when.
Al Scott
75 PB
Dixon, CA
----- Original Message -----
I also see one listed in Ontario on your web site. That might be an even
better choice for him. I know nothing about the Ontario guy.
Thanks Gene
Gordon & the "Tin Gerbil"
Boje Hjelm has his own company, called Racemate (he's a Porsche racecar
specialist I believe). Telephone is 416 251 9811 fax 416 251 5950
Racemate Corporation - 416-251-9811
29 Connell Court , Etobicoke , ON M8Z 5T7
Al Scott wrote:
> I found the following in my notes:
Dennis Golden
Rather than open a new thread, I tail on this one. I have just had confermation from some other GMC'rs that mine is in need of replacement.
I was at NAPA today and questioned about the quality and was told that maybe I would be better off going to a specialist. I'd rather spend a little extra and have it done right.
So, the question goes out whom should I trust to rebuild this correctly?
Regards,
Dennis
--
Dennis Golden
1976 Glenbrook
Jim Kanomata
carefully. Some boxes will be tighter and some looser.
I have our guys locate the high point and them I adjust enough to
where it removes the play. If you tighten off the high spot, you'll
damage the unit when you turn over the high spot.
The amount of movement should not be a major consideration if the
front end is set properly to where you do not need to correct
constantly.
If you have the high point as you drive straight, you should not have
more than a inch of play. Again, a rebuilt unit can vary.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Mr.erf ERFisher
http://gmcmotorhome.info/steering.htm#gear
I don't know where you are located, but JimK might have some resources on
this also
gene
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Dennis Golden <
dgo...@golden-consulting.com> wrote:
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
Rob Mueller
The procedure to center and adjust the steering box can be found in:
Maintenance Manual: X-7525
Section 9: STEERING
Page: 9-38
Para: Pitman Shaft "Over-Center" Sector Adjustment
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Bob de Kruyff
""I was at NAPA today and questioned about the quality and was told that
> maybe I would be better off going to a specialist. I'd rather spend a little
> extra and have it done right.
>
> So, the question goes out whom should I trust to rebuild this correctly?""
Other than seals, these units very rarely wear out--the real devil is in the adjustment. During my vehicle development years we always re-adjusted a new gear before installing it in a vehicle.Brand new gears from SSG were often in need of a good set-up. Yes--the procedure in the shop manual will do it.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Charles
I repost to Subject New Steering box still sloopy.
I don't think Dennis is interested in trying to adjust his present steering
gear box.He has almost a full 1/2 steering wheel play in the box itself.
Standing infront ofthe coach and rotating the steering shaft the
steering wheel rotates almost 1/2 turn before the pitman arm moves
at all. We saw no play in the steering CV joint. Where have others
bought a steering gear box and got top quality. One of our local
builders only has a good record of 7 good out of 10 rebuilds. It is my
experience, when a box gets this bad all the adjusting in the world won't
make it better. WHERE ARE THE GOOD BOXES ? WHO SELLS
THEM? Do the Jims have rebuilt boxes?
Charles Wersal
Ron Kazi
Hang on Sloopy by the McCoys...
I repost to Subject New Steering box still sloopy.
_______________________________________________
Roger Black
http://www.appliedgmc.com/level.itml/icOid/484
Roger
Burns, TN
Dennis Golden
GMCMHRON wrote on Sun, 22 February 2009 10:07
> This brings to mind an appropriate song:
> Hang on Sloopy by the McCoys...
Well, I can tell you that I've had to really hang on. Every since I purchased this coach, it's been more than a handfull. When we drove back from Albuquerque there were a few times that I thought we were going loose it. Scared the #### out of both my wife and myself.
I'm just happy that it was not my imagination. I will be giving Racemate a call, because I have not seen any negative comments on his work.
Dennis
--
Dennis Golden
1976 Glenbrook
Ron Kazi
worked his magic on the front end and did a 6 wheel alignment. When he he
test drove it, he had a funny look on his face. I asked what was up. He
said that now that he had driven mine, he had to go and work on his because
mine sure rode nice!
Jim Kanomata
Unless you have had been around these coaches and have done lot of
work, you'll find later that your not going to get to the root of what
is needed.
We feel that the 4 of us are rather experienced to fix this type of
problems, but we spend our break time discussing best approach to
these problems.
Phone call is free and you stand a chance to learn from us. We might
twist your arm to send you a free catalog. (800)752-7502
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Bruce Hislop
I was the original poster of this thread. I ended up sending the replacement NAPA unit to Racemate for a rebuild. He told me the replacement one from NAPA was not great either. They did a bunch of work to it including changing the turn to turn stops to the porper amount.
Unfortunately the day I put it on it started to snow and I had to drive the 3 miles home in a snow storm with 4-6" of snow on the road so I wasn't paying much attention to how well the steering was working. Since then it has been in storage... looking forward to getting it out in another 3 or 4 weeks.
Racemate is not far from me, but you maybe able to find someone closer.
REBUILDER
Boje Hjelm has his own company, called Racemate (he's a Porsche racecar specialist I believe).
Telephone is 416 251 9811 fax 416 251 5950
29 Connell Court, Unit 12,
Etobicoke, Ontario M8Z 5T7.
--
Bruce Hislop,
S. Ontario Canada
77PB, 455
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
Jim Bounds
In the end, this and most other parts are less effected by the work and more effected by recourse if there is an issue.
Rebuild steering boxes are just that, they take older parts, clean them up, install new seals, bearings and gaskets then assemble the unit together. Generally speaking, if a guy is willing to open it up, chances are he knows what he is doing. If it works, it will probably work well-- it there is a problem, it's usually not a factor the assembly was wrong and more unepected results from having to use original parts.
Trust all is well but verify right away and if there is a problem, take it back. This is the deal. If it will work out of the gate, chances are all will be well down the road. We installed one steering box on a coach, within 5 turns on the steering wheel, it blew out-- had to swap it out and now we will be looking at the second one to be sure it checks out. I have used boxes from many different sources, production and custom built and they all came down to the check out. Some were fine, some failed-- whatever happens it's no big deal as long as you have a partner is something happens and the best you can hope for is that. Sure you eat the labor in the swap but at least you have someone standing behind the box build so get a 27-7519 box and see it the gods are smiling on you,
Jim Bounds
---------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:19:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New steering box still sloppy
Richard
Regarding having Racemate, JimK or whomever 'tune-up'
one of these boxes...
Can some of you throw out some approx. numbers as to
what one of the shops may charge.
--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
Chico California
Dennis Golden
jimk wrote on Tue, 03 March 2009 22:00
> Dennis,
> Unless you have had been around these coaches and have done lot of
> work, you'll find later that your not going to get to the root of what
> is needed.
> We feel that the 4 of us are rather experienced to fix this type of
> problems, but we spend our break time discussing best approach to
> these problems.
> Phone call is free and you stand a chance to learn from us. We might
> twist your arm to send you a free catalog. (800)752-7502
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Dennis Golden
> <dgo...@golden-consulting.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > GMCMHRON wrote on Sun, 22 February 2009 10:07
> >> This brings to mind an appropriate song:
> >> Hang on Sloopy by the McCoys...
> >
> >
> > Well, I can tell you that I've had to really hang on. Every since I purchased this coach, it's been more than a handfull. When we drove back from Albuquerque there were a few times that I thought we were going loose it. Scared the #### out of both my wife and myself.
> >
> > I'm just happy that it was not my imagination. I will be giving Racemate a call, because I have not seen any negative comments on his work.
> >
> > Dennis
> > --
> > Dennis Golden
> > 1976 Glenbrook
Jim,
We have already had this conversation on Monday 03/02/09. If I were in California and you were doing the work, it would make a difference, but you told me on the phone that "1 out 12 we have had to have a discussion with our supplier". I'm in Texas a long way from any GMC shop. I am just not willing to take a chance, install and then have to send it back.
I want to pull the box and have it done correctly the FIRST time.
I'm still getting ready to order the other things we talked about.
Regards,
Jim Kanomata
call me and I'll Walk you through simple steps and see if this should do it.
I have had good results with loose rebuilts.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Dennis Golden
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Bruce Hislop
Bukzin,
I believe Racemate was 275.Cdn so in US$ thats about 220.00
Racemate is only an hour away from me here in Canada. The issue for you will be getting it cleared across the boarder and back.
Recently we sent a device back for warranty repair to the USA by UPS. I think it was 60.00 bucks each way for shipping and brokerage.
Mail is cheaper but way slower.
--
Bruce Hislop,
S. Ontario Canada
77PB, 455
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
_______________________________________________