[GMCnet] Lead sinkers in the gas tank.

[Bob Dunahugh]

Just remembered today that I forgot to put sinkers in my tanks the last time I dropped my tanks. I put them in to roll around to keep rust from forming on the bottom of the tanks. Thought of putting them in the filler neck. But I think that they would all go into the back main tank. Maybe put two hand fulls in at once. Might increase the odds of some going in the front tank. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI
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[James Hupy]

Well, gee. I have heard that the EPA wants to ensure that all the lead is
out of gasoline. Here you go, putting more into it. ( Very big grin). If
you cut the holes in the floor for sender access, shouldn't be too hard to
open em up and put all the sinkers you want in.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403

[Ken Burton]

I thought the EPA outlawed lead in gasoline except for airplanes.

How about stainless steel ones like ball bearings? They also will not rust.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Robert Mueller]

Bob,

When I bought Double Trouble Ken Frey dropped the tanks and had them cleaned. Two years later I dropped them again at the COOP and
found they were IMMACULATE. Ken told me to fill the tanks fully when I put Double Trouble in storage so at the end of the summer I
fill the tanks up until I can see gas in the filler neck adding enough Stabil for 50 gallons of gas. I drive less than 1 mile from
the gas station to the storage facility.

I believe that if you have clean gas tanks and you follow my (Ken's) instructions you won't have problems with rusty tanks.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[Jim Bounds]

I will tell you if you do not fill them to the neck there will be rust in
them, we are going to have to drop RC's tanks. he filled up a carb filter
on our test drives!

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Robert Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
wrote:

[George Beckman]

BobDunahugh wrote on Sun, 14 December 2014 21:54

> Just remembered today that I forgot to put sinkers in my tanks the last time I dropped my tanks. I put them in to roll around to keep rust from
> forming on the bottom of the tanks. Thought of putting them in the filler neck. But I think that they would all go into the back main tank. Maybe
> put two hand fulls in at once. Might increase the odds of some going in the front tank. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI

We California folks have had ethanol in our fuel for probably 15 years. When we dropped our tanks they were so shiny inside, you could eat off the
bottoms.

BTW, in one tank a baffle broke off and so, other than causing a leak where the spot weld broke, perhaps it is helping keeping that tank polished. The
other has to be ethanol. *smile*

--
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George

[Robert Mueller]

Jim,

Add one of these: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p54750-fuel-pump-inlet-filter.html

Along with Barricade fuel lines; your "patented" Facet pump between the aux fuel tank and the selector valve (powered by the AUX
fuel switch) and Bob's your Uncle! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 2:07 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Lead sinkers in the gas tank.

I will tell you if you do not fill them to the neck there will be rust in them, we are going to have to drop RC's tanks. he filled
up a carb filter on our test drives!

[GEORGE BUTTS]

If you have an external-inline fuel filter like the one in the picture can you eliminate the one in the carb ?
--
George Butts
Las Vegas Nevada
73 "Custom 26' Q" & 76 23' Birchaven
71 Honda 600 Coupe & 01 Tracker Toads

[Steve Southworth]

George B. wrote on Mon, 15 December 2014 14:30

> If you have an external-inline fuel filter like the one in the picture can you eliminate the one in the carb ?

I didn't. The carb filter acts as the final backup for any upstream problem. If installed correctly it will not be a problem.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[Robert Mueller]

George,

I did not remove the carb filter either.

I remove the fuel pump inlet filter at the end of our summer tours and blow through it to make sure it's clear. I replaced the
filter that Ken Frey installed when he worked on Double Trouble back in 2008. It was over 6 years old and not restricted; I replaced
it just for the hell of it.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Southworth

George B. wrote on Mon, 15 December 2014 14:30
> If you have an external-inline fuel filter like the one in the picture can you eliminate the one in the carb ?


I didn't. The carb filter acts as the final backup for any upstream problem. If installed correctly it will not be a problem.
--
Steve

[Bob de Kruyff]

George Beckman wrote on Mon, 15 December 2014 09:30

> BobDunahugh wrote on Sun, 14 December 2014 21:54
> > Just remembered today that I forgot to put sinkers in my tanks the last time I dropped my tanks. I put them in to roll around to keep rust
> > from forming on the bottom of the tanks. Thought of putting them in the filler neck. But I think that they would all go into the back main tank.
> > Maybe put two hand fulls in at once. Might increase the odds of some going in the front tank. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI
>
>
> We California folks have had ethanol in our fuel for probably 15 years. When we dropped our tanks they were so shiny inside, you could eat off the
> bottoms.
>
> BTW, in one tank a baffle broke off and so, other than causing a leak where the spot weld broke, perhaps it is helping keeping that tank polished.
> The other has to be ethanol. *smile*

George. I'm glad you mentioned that. The rest of the country has been living with Ethanol fot at least as long and it is blamed for everything that
can go wrong with a GMC including burned out light bulbs :) It's time for the group to realize it is here to stay and once old and neglected fuel
systems are finally maintained and updated, Ethanol can actually have benefits.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Bob Dunahugh]

Bob de Kruyff has a good point. Ethanol showed up here in Iowa, I believe 1973. Probable due to the fact that 1 in ever 6 people are involved with agriculture in some way. And that meant that Iowa didn't really participate in the rescission since 2008. When ethanol showed up. I started using it in everything to support the states economy. And as Bob said. It seems that any troubles that people have had, got blamed on ethanol. Maybe I just got lucky. I can't think of any problems that I've had. That can sole be blamed on the product. But then again I don't buy the cheep parts, and hoses. I have in the last 5 years had some vapor lock issues. But I think that's coming from other changes in fuel formula changes. Any tank that I have. That I've looked in have looked like new. I store everything I have with the tanks full. And have put lead shot type sinkers in. It's all worked for me that way in my climate, and storage methods. As to my GMC. It's stored in it's own place th
at has central heat/ AC on all year to match the season. Now back to the sinkers. The next time I fuel up the GMC. I'm going to put a hand full in the filler neck. Then when I put my FI pumps in the tanks. I'll find out how that plan worked. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI

[Kerry Pinkerton]

midlf wrote on Mon, 15 December 2014 14:49

> I didn't. The carb filter acts as the final backup for any upstream problem.

I guess I'm over filtered because I've actually got three filters. When I went all external electric pumps, I put (as the FACET instructions say and,
more important, as Ken Henderson suggested) one of those metal in line filters before EACH fuel pump (with check valves to prevent back flow). There
is also one just before the engine at the end of the steel line on the cross member same as Rob's photo. Finally there is the new one in the carb.

I also have about 4 spares in my parts bins in the coach.
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[James Hupy]

Gee, if this alcohol infused fuel (sounds like a holiday cocktail) is so
great and wonderful, why am I constantly replacing fuel lines, vent lines,
fuel pumps, vacuum lines and filters on customer's coaches. Why does it
boil on 85 degree days? YES, I AGREE. IT IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPLIED TO USE.
DOESN'T MAKE IT BETTER THAN STRAIGHT GASOLINE. REALITY IS SOMETIMES A
BITTER PILL. DON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE how much alcohol you wash it down
with. That is my take on this. You all are entitled to your own opinions.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[StanC]

Good evening folks.
Seems a lot of topics are running around here.
I had never heard of adding lead to the gas tank to reduce rust. When my tanks were dropped some years ago to replace the fuel lines, they were clean
and shiney. My fuel lines were leaking which was the cause of the need to drop the tanks.

My only documented experience with the addition of Ethanol was the loss of 50 miles per tank full on my cars, which at that time I was documenting 3
cars. The loss was across the board. In GMC terms, that would be more around 75 to 100 miles lost.
The only two other things that I am only casually aware of is the shelf life has shortened, the mechanics are all talking about this, and its
aggressive attack on rubber that is not made for Ethanol fuels. None of these are rumors, each mechanic I spoke with had seen these phenomena on
customers vehicles.

There is a new product that has just come out. Called STABLE360. This is supposed to be made for long term storage for Ethanol gas fueled vehicles.
It is supposed to protect everything, including the metal tanks in the fuel system. Even the supply stores can't get this product yet, even though it
is being advertised, but I found it at the AUTO ZONE. One bottle treats 60 gallons and costs $19.99. Look it up, the mechanic, and now the auto
supply places that we talked to, want to carry this product because of its claims. It was made for Ethanol fuels.

In regards to the carborator Supply FILTER, My GMC "Gatsbys' CRUISER" is just coming out of a repair of the fuel / engine carb system which had a
power loss problem that I have battled for literally YEARS. This year I said I was going to find the problem. This project started in the Spring of
this year and is just ending now. The plan was straight forward with simple replacements and upgrades. But Every step we took forward, we found
another that took us back. It was an incredible experience that I hope no one ever has to go through. But we found that the filter at the carb had
done its job until the failing point. With all the unkown weaknesses in fuel and systems to day, I will tell you to NEVER RUN WITHOUT THAT
CARBORATOR INLET FILTER.

Much thanks to Jim Bounds for working with my mechanic and supplying us with needed parts and all that valuable information. I owe you a dinner.

[Bob Dunahugh]

The sinkers are a PM thing that certainly aren't going to harm anything. As to hoses. I replace all the hoses i my 78 GMC in 2003. I used only Goodyear fuel line. Those hoses have Goodyear printed all over them. And are date. Last winter I examined most of them. Had only Ethanol used in them. There all in good shape. I paid the price for good hose. You get what you pay for. I also have a 65 Corvair that I changed jet size to run on E-85. No issues in the last 3 years. My suggestion is buy an appropriate hose. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI

[James Hupy]

Bob, you and I are in agreement as to the sinkers. They don't hurt
anything, and if there is any rust in the tanks, it is possible that it may
dislodge it. The socks on the fuel pickups perhaps might plug IF THERE WAS
SUFFICIENT RUST AND CRUD THAT WAS PRESENT AND DISLODGED. If the particles
were small enough to pass through the socks, then downstream filters should
do the trick. If the hose used for fuel lines is Gates Barricade or the
Goodyear equivalent of it, they will resist alcohol degradation longer than
ordinary rubber fuel hose will. But my personal experience with hoses tells
me to be ever vigilant of them when alcohol is present in gasoline. MY
PERSONAL PREFERENCE , BASED ON EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH NON AND INCLUDED
ALCOHOL DILUTED GASOLINE, is to seek out and use the non alcohol version in
my GMC. It is much less prone to vapor lock and other similar acting fuel
related phenomenon. Economy is kind of a wash because the additional cost
of fuel with alcohol left out of it offsets the better mpg benefits. I do
notice a difference in mileage. Verified it on a number of long trips. 8
mpg with alcohol, 10 plus without it. I agree. We are stuck with it.
Government will never agree to go back to a consumable product that will
yield them 10% less tax revenue. They are already looking at a per mile
traveled tax in addition to existing gasoline taxes to enhance the portion
of gasoline taxes that are lost by electric and hybrid vehicles. Officials
and legislative members are wringing their hands and moaning about it here
in Oregon. That is the way it is. But I don't have to like it, nor do I
have to vote to re elect those that do. (grin)

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Chuck Garton]

I am a California resident. My tanks are always clean and shiny.
A few years back, I replaced my "rubber" fuel lines with metal lines. There
are places where I had to use "rubber" line. I used the high pressure
"rubber" lines, and mostly in places where I could see them thus proving
the (if you can see them, they won't rot) theory. I talked about this in my
"third Tank Installation" article on the Pacific Cruisers Web Site (
www.gmcpc.org) under "Shadetree".

[Bob de Kruyff]

Many of these coaches are due for their second or third fuel system refurb and there isn't a reason in the world why ethanol laced fuel can't be
comprehended in the process. New fuel lines/hoses, carb rebuilds, booster or in-tank fuel pumps have been adopted by members who want to move forward
rather than wring their hands. I've had my coach for 20 years and I suspect it has always been filled with ethanol laced fuel. Fuel without ethanol is
simply not available within any reasonable distance of home nor where I want to go. Many of the complaints I read about are simply due to lack of
maintenance on 40 year old systems--ethanol or not. I agree that vapor lock is aggravated by ethanol but not to a crippling amount. Those with severe
vapor lock have basic system problems unrelated to the fuel. Once a system has been updated, I think it will be as trouble free as ever. I'll bet
there are coaches running around with fuel systems that have never been refreshed much less 2 or 3 times in 40 years and yet people feel entitled to
p..s and moan.

--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Bob Dunahugh]

Jim. I've thought about your comment before about what happens to the rust that gets put into the fuel that gets dislodged. From what I've seen in tanks that had sinkers. I think the sinkers break up those rust particles to the point that they are too small to cause any real issues. The socks in those tanks have been clean. From what I understand is that oil companies formulate gas for different areas of the country by what the EPA require to meet standards of air quality. I know there are winter, and summer blends. In much of the Midwest. We have no emission testing. It seems that I've hear of more gas issues as you travel toward the West coast. Could it be that these other chemicals that are added to meet EPA standards. Be causing many of the issues that get blamed on Ethanol. During our last two trips we had to the West coast. It seemed the farther West. The more fuel issues. Or the gas in large cities. I think I've heard that Chicago has different gas then in
the rest of the state. Maybe someone out there has knowledge in this area. I don't. Bob Dunahugh Member GMCMI

[Robert Mueller]

Bob,

I am of the opinion that all the kafuffle about ethanol is akin to Shakespeare's play, "Much Ado About Nothing." I have noted here a
countless number of times that if one:

1) drops the tanks and cleans them
2) puts new socks on the fuel pickup
3) installs all new fuel lines using Goodyear or Gates fuel hose compatible with ethanol
4) installs a little Facet pump (4 psi output max) between the aux tank and the selector valve
5) powers that pump so that it receives power from the selector valve through the AUX switch
6) installs a metal filter between the metal fuel line welded to the top of the front crossmember and the mechanical pump inlet
7) replaces the carb inlet filter
8) fill the MAIN and AUX tanks before starting out in the morning

One will not have vapor lock problems that cannot be solved by switching to AUX which turns the Facet pump on and pressurizes the
inlet to the mechanical pump slightly. I use the word "slightly" as the pressure drop through the fuel supply lines from the outlet
of the pump to the inlet of the mechanical pump will reduce the output pressure of the Facet pump.

As I have mentioned there IS one down side to this fix, if you have a mechanical fuel pump with a weak diaphragm it could fail and
the Facet pump could pump gas into the crankcase.

This is what I did following the suggestions of JimB down at the COOP in 2008 and to date I have not had vapor lock problems that
switching to AUX couldn't cure INSTANTLY! Thanks Jim!

Oops, that's a lie!

I had problems climbing the Rockies to Eisenhower pass, but they were self inflicted wounds, I DID NOT fill the MAIN and AUX tanks
the morning we did the climb and as we climbed the fuel drained from the AUX tank into the MAIN tank and when I switched to AUX my
vapor lock problem persisted as I believe there was not enough fuel in the AUX tank for the Facet pump to pump properly.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426



-----Original Message-----

From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob de Kruyff
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:00 PM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] : Lead sinkers in the gas tank.

Many of these coaches are due for their second or third fuel system refurb and there isn't a reason in the world why ethanol laced
fuel can't be comprehended in the process. New fuel lines/hoses, carb rebuilds, booster or in-tank fuel pumps have been adopted by
members who want to move forward rather than wring their hands. I've had my coach for 20 years and I suspect it has always been
filled with ethanol laced fuel. Fuel without ethanol is simply not available within any reasonable distance of home nor where I want
to go. Many of the complaints I read about are simply due to lack of maintenance on 40 year old systems--ethanol or not. I agree
that vapor lock is aggravated by ethanol but not to a crippling amount. Those with severe vapor lock have basic system problems
unrelated to the fuel. Once a system has been updated, I think it will be as trouble free as ever. I'll bet there are coaches
running around with fuel systems that have never been refreshed much less 2 or 3 times in 40 years and yet people feel entitled to
p..s and moan.
--
Bob

[James Hupy]

Bob, a bunch of issues at play here. Yes, there is winter blend vs. summer
blend fuels. State by State, and in a lot of cases, even local airshed
areas, use different formulations of what passes for gasoline these days. A
little bit about viscosity of liquids. Fuels today are formulated for high
pressure supply systems that use fuel injectors to break the liquid into
tiny droplets, instead of relying upon a venturi effect in a carb to do
that. So, right away, GMC owners that are still using carbs are at a
distinct disadvantage over fuel injection equipped vehicles. Get your carb
jetted spot on for the gasoline supply in your local area, and drive to
another area where the formulation is different, and most of the time very
little happens that the ordinary GMC driver will notice. But subtle changes
do occur. When we ascend above 5000 feet in altitude, while still using
fuel that has a different formulation, and even a blind squirrel can tell
that somthin' ain't right. Combine that with high temperatures and you
magnify the problems. YES, PROPER SYSTEM UPKEEP IS VERY IMPORTANT. There
are mitigating steps that we can take to REDUCE drivability issues. In-tank
fuel pumps, hard lines that are insulated from heat, full fuel tanks,
auxillary fuel pumps, proper tune ups, enhanced engine cooling systems,
etc. all help, but do not cure the problem that is caused by THAT WHICH IS
OUT OF OUR CONTROL. Yes, I admit, I am very vocal about blended fuels. They
are with us and will continue to be with us for a very long time. Does that
mean that I have to like it? Does that mean that I should just shut up
about it? That is not likely to happen any time soon either. In the
meantime, I will continue to replace fuel hoses all too often because of
it. It is a safety issue, and is dangerous. Alcohol blended into fuel
causes gasoline to absorb water from the air, and water and pot metal carbs
do not play well together. New materials, which were not needed or even
available when out coaches were built, are somewhat alcohol resistant. We
can retrofit out coaches with as much technology as we can adapt to our
uses, and continue to seek out ways to regain the driveability that our
coaches had before blended fuels became the law of the land. I, for one
will continue to rise to that challenge. But that gives me the right to
BITCH about it. Kinda like voting. If you do not like who got elected in
the last election, if you did not vote, don't snivel about it. (grin). I am
done for now.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403