[GMCnet] Mondello Cooling Restrictors

[pete]

So sorry I never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Mondello. Did any of you who knew him ever recall him mentioning using these restictors in the GMC?

--
Pete
74 Canyon Lands 26' "Emery"
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

[Mr.erf ERFisher]

when I got my new engine from Mondello

they would only warranty the engine if we used a restrictor in place of a
thermostat

they say, thermostats kill more engines than you would know

and
the engines run at 180 what ever you do

JWID
gene

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[David Greenberg]

Joe built my 455 with restrictors. I was told it may have been the high mile
engine among his rebuilds.

--
*David Lee Greenberg
Port St Lucie, FL *
*skype: david.lee.greenberg

http://www.picturetrail.com/gmcregistry*

[pete]

Thanks Gene and David,

I guess that speaks volumes especially in this day of limited thermostat choices. Living in No. Florida it only gets really cold but 2-3 days a year.

Are there any other (Non-Jims) must have 455 goodies when placing an order with Mondello?
LOL No heads, thinking gaskets, etc.

Pete

[Dennis Sexton]

petemosss wrote on Thu, 14 July 2011 18:15

> Thanks Gene and David,
>
> I guess that speaks volumes especially in this day of limited thermostat choices. Living in No. Florida it only gets really cold but 2-3 days a year.
>
> Are there any other (Non-Jims) must have 455 goodies when placing an order with Mondello?
> LOL No heads, thinking gaskets, etc.
>
> Pete

Pete,

If you are planning to pull the intake -- consider Mondello VT-581, valley tray, $39. In their online catalog it is under gaskets. One of our GMCers makes one similar -- but not sure of availability.

Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[gene Fisher]

here is a picture of the washers

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-chemicals-and-tools/p54962-mondello-washers.html

erf

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.er...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[David H. Jarvis]

'way back when....some people used a washer restrictor like these in Ford flatheads.
Supposedly, the coolant flowed too fast and didn't get cooled down by the radiator. They would put one of these washers in the water outlet on each
head.

[Michael]

I am running one in my GMC, I went with the largest diameter, and I think I need to change to a more restrictive one.
It just does not seem to get that hot.
But I did just install a new temp gauge yesterday, so maybe it was just a bad gauge, the old sender was broken.


--
1973 GMC 26' Glacier - Unknown Mileage - Has a new switch pitch transmission with Powerdrive

[Mr.erf]

Use the one same size as open thermostat

FREE WIFI @ Mickey D

[Keith V]

what a terrible ides.
restrictors? Really?

are you driving a drag car?

Use a good thermostat, if you are having cooling problems, it not the thermostat, it's the cooling system.

as far as the old wives tale about water flowing too fast to cool?
The probelem is the thermostat is an engineered restriction, It keeps the water in the engine under pressure reducing steam pockets.
There is no such thing as too much flow through a radiator, well until you start heating the coolant from friction.

If you're running the wrong thermostat in a SBC chev that doesn't have any bypass, you need to drill a hole in it to allow a little coolant flow, I
have 2 1/4" holes in my Vettes stat and it's too much, barely gets warm.
I'd recommend 1 1/4" hole
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN

[David H. Jarvis]

the trouble with the washer is that it restricts a "smooth" water flow and creates cavitiation (bubbles) in the coolant thereby reducing the amount of
water actually touching the inside cylinder walls - reducing heat conduction.

[gene Fisher]

restrictor, washer, are misnomers

it is really just a thermostat that is always open
never sticks shut
flows the same as an open thermostat

no difference
erf

--

Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Les Burt]

Tell me how a restrictor compensates for varying ambient air temps? Crossing the US, a coach could easily see anywhere from mid 40s all the way into the 100s in deg F. One specific size restrictor certainly isn't going to work best under that wide a range of air temps. A thermostat provides a variable restriction to suit the operating conditions what more could you ask for?

I believe that Mondello's recommendation was directed towards race engines, as that is what his main business was.

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[gene Fisher]

do as you want
tell me now many engines are destroyed by stuck thermostats..

me,i just want an engine that
- never fails
- always runs at 180
- is not controlled by a $3 item

you just do as you want
i will go with mr. mondello
]
erf

[jim kanomata]

Should you live in a cool climate, you will find that the thermostats will warm up the engine sooner.
Also if you will do a one minute warm up and drive it slowly, the engine will warm faster and avoid wear on valve stems and rings that get effected by
the rich fuel wash of oil.
The restricters work well as it simulates the opening of a thermostat when it opens fully.
--
Applied/GMC, Fremont, CA
1-800-752-7502
ji...@appliedgmc.com
www.appliedgmc.com

[Matt Colie]

Oh Boy, So much to uncover and cover up again....

Let's start with (only for those that don't know) the fact that the engine thermostat only controls how cold the engine will run but not how hot.

Now, in dynoland engines are cooled by water cooled heat exchangers that are very different than automotive radiators. In this world, engines are
seldom run without anything in the thermostat location. Sometimes a restrictor like the Mondello plate is used but more often a stock thermostat is
damaged to cause it to stay at full open.
Why do this when there is a very expensive cell control system that can control the engine coolant to a very small variation?
Simple answer: If the coolant flow is unrestricted, it does not behave well.

There are two undesirable issues that are common.

One is erosion of the engine cooling jacket. Yes, this can happen in a passcar engine. I have seen cases where the casting wall of a cylinder or
combustion chamber has become porous enough to leak coolant through the casting wall. When sectioned to reveal the interior of the cooling jacket,
the damage is usually startling.

The other and often more difficult to detect is what people that work in fluids call channeling. This can happen a high Reynolds numbers (a
dimensionless number used to describe flow characteristics) flow regimes. Low Reynolds numbers are laminar flow areas - like a slow moving stream.
High Reynolds numbers are turbulent flow. While a turbulent flow may be better for cooling because it will strip the laminar boundary of the surface,
it can can get so high that the coolant is no longer interested in slowing down enough to mess with the laminar boundary. In this case the engine
could behave as if it were over temperature, but the coolant temperatures were lower than expected - until you slowed it down - Then Over Heat.

I suspect that Joe Mondello was fighting these two things in engines that were built up for racing and neither of these apply to motorhome engines
(unless one is out to challenge the LSR). But another advantage he could have been counting on even on a coach application was the slower warm up
would have made the break-in running a slower process and less likely to damage closely fit components.

Matt - the refugee from Dynoland
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Keith V]

Mr ERFisher wrote on Mon, 09 June 2014 22:17

> do as you want
> tell me now many engines are destroyed by stuck thermostats..
>

> ....


I have this really trick new fangled instrument. It's pretty cutting edge but thats how I roll.
I call it a 'Temperature Gauge' It measures the engine water temperature and displays it in an analog fashion.
I only have to look at it from time to time to get a good idea of how the engine is doing.

For the really paranoid there is another invention called a 'warning light' it comes on when the temperature exceeds a preset threshold. pretty trick
eh?

Use your restrictor, just don't tell me it runs at 180 ALL the time.. you and I know thats not true.

I have mondello parts in my engine, I understand his / their mindset. a restrictor is not better, it's just less likely to cause them warranty work.

--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN

[Neil Martin]

So let me add some purely anecdotal, unscientific, real life experience. I go nuts when the coach runs too hot. So we went whole hog, aluminum
radiator oil and trans coolers with fans, maybe a 16o degree thermostat.

Even pulling a trailer, it never got above 200, it ran rough at low rpms, and I had no heat.

Put a 190 thermostat in and every single aspect worked. I had heat, it idles and pulled from low rpm better. No question about it.

It would have to be a pretty neat restrictor to achieve those results....

JWID


--
Neil
76 Eleganza
Los Angeles

[David Orders]

Neil wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 07:33

> So let me add some purely anecdotal, unscientific, real life experience. I go nuts when the coach runs too hot. So we went whole hog, aluminum
> radiator oil and trans coolers with fans, maybe a 16o degree thermostat.
>
> Even pulling a trailer, it never got above 200, it ran rough at low rpms, and I had no heat.
>
> Put a 190 thermostat in and every single aspect worked. I had heat, it idles and pulled from low rpm better. No question about it.
>
> It would have to be a pretty neat restrictor to achieve those results....
>
> JWID

Wow. It's almost like the GM engineers knew what they were doing............ ;o)

--
1976 Royale "Twinkie II", 1978 Palm Beach with front end fire. Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we
treat one another is entirely up to us."

[Les Burt]

Matt Colie wrote:

> "But another advantage he could have been counting on even on a coach application was the slower warm up
> would have made the break-in running a slower process and less likely to damage closely fit components."

Matt,
Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that a cold engine will wear less (or slower) than an engine at 180-190 F?

It has always been my understanding that running an engine at less than 160f was bad for engine life, mainly cylinder/piston wear

[Emery Stora]

I look forward to Matt's answer but if you reread what he already said he is referring to the "break-in" of a new (or rebuilt) engine, not the constant operation of it.

Emery Stora

[Les Burt]

Damned iphone keypad!!
Didn't get to finish my thoughts before hitting send with my big thumbs!

Ok, my understanding is that along with higher cyl/piston wear, low temps can also contribute to excess unburnt hydrocarbons and moisture contaminating the oil, which the combine into acids and contribute to corrosion/wear.

Higher engine temps (190-210) have been said to improve engine combustion efficiency, and therefore reducing oil contamination, and the higher temps have little effect on engine wear, as is indicated by the operating parameters of most current production engines.

So if higher temps don't affect engine wear/lifespan, and running a cold engine potentially slows engine wear, I would have to assume engine wear isn't the issue to be concerned about.

I know there is much more going on than what I mentioned, but have I totally mis-understood the engine operating temp issue here?

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[Les Burt]

Emery,
I caught that. Just trying to pick Matt' brain for some additional details.

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[James Hupy]

I have considerable experience with running engines on test stands. Both
air cooled and water cooled. Before I knew better, a garden hose stuck into
the lower inlet of the water pump and wrapped with rags so I did not have
to wade around the shop floor was good enough. Then I advanced to the
radiator on the stand. Some better, but not ideal. Finally after working on
marine engines and using heat exchangers, I hit upon a better way. Heat
exchangers give one the opportunity to exactly remove the amount of heat
wanted. Break in requires more heat extraction due to increased friction
while parts become familiar with their new surroundings. I lack the ability
and resources that Matt has at his disposal in the test cell. Instruments
tell you a good deal. Seat of the pants data acquisition is imprecise at
best. Sounds, same thing. But, I still test run every engine I build. Just
what I do.
Jim Hupy
In Chicago with route 66 rally

[A.]

I'll just expand on and emphasize something that Jim K wrote. A carbureted engine with a choke runs rich until it warms up enough for the choke to
fully open. Jim said warming up the engine correctly will

"avoid wear on valve stems and rings that get effected by the rich fuel wash of oil."

That washing of the oil off surfaces also applies to the cylinder walls. Some ends up in the oil. When the temperature of the oil gets high enough,
the fuel in the oil vaporizes and traverses the PCV system and gets burned in the combustion chamber.

An engine thermostat is a variable restrictor that warms the engine up quicker and allows the cooling system to do what it was designed to do after
the engine gets to correct operating temperature.

People that want to run a restrictor instead of a thermostat get some confidence that the thermostat won't fail closed, at the expense of reduced
engine longevity because of the longer time it takes for the engine to get to operating temperature.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
Upper Alabama

[Matt Colie]

Les Burt[1
> wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 11:29]Emery,

> I caught that. Just trying to pick Matt' brain for some additional details.
>
> Les Burt

Les,

I was wondering who would ask and you did, so here goes...

In most passcar grade engines the oil temperature is actually controlled by the jacket water temperature. In many passcar engines there are even
features that hold the lubricating oil on top of the cylinder head to allow it to loose heat to the jacket water. The only other cooling is the dwell
time in the oil pan. This is why marine adaptions almost always include a lube oil cooler.

Keeping an engine cooler does nobody any good EXCEPT for the initial break-in. The cooler engine oil and cooler cylinder head both work to the
engine's advantage because valves, pistons and bearings all get to be just a little cooler for that critical period. This matters much less with
modern engines as they are all now manufactured to such close tolerances that break-in considerations are far less important than they were. There is
no way any builder/shop can work to the same fits and finish.

After that, it doesn't matter very much except as other have noted that the engine oil needs to stay hot enough to prevent accumulation of water and
other combustion by-products that are part of blow-by. Before the modern multi-viz lube oils, staying cool was very important to control the amount
of lube oil that would be retained on the cylinder walls. Again, that is no longer such a great importance. While a cooler cylinder head may make
flame front issues less important, but the overall effect on performance is even difficult to demonstrate in an engine laboratory.

I hope I covered your questions.

I wish I could actually ask Joe what his primary concern was.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[gene Fisher]

GOPOHERIT

mine does not keep the engine cooler.
runs 180 all the time
just do not run the engine hotter for the heater ----
does not make sense to me to do that

no big deal , do what you will
erf

--

Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Bob de Kruyff]

Otterwan wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 08:40

> Neil wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 07:33
> > So let me add some purely anecdotal, unscientific, real life experience. I go nuts when the coach runs too hot. So we went whole hog,
> > aluminum radiator oil and trans coolers with fans, maybe a 16o degree thermostat.
> >
> > Even pulling a trailer, it never got above 200, it ran rough at low rpms, and I had no heat.
> >
> > Put a 190 thermostat in and every single aspect worked. I had heat, it idles and pulled from low rpm better. No question about it.
> >
> > It would have to be a pretty neat restrictor to achieve those results....
> >
> > JWID
>
>
> Wow. It's almost like the GM engineers knew what they were doing............ ;o)

That won't hold much water on this net :)
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Chris Tyler]

The fact that millions of vehicles have run around on the planet with thermosts argues that they did know what they were doing.
Yes, stats do fail, and when they do, bad things happen. But Im not aware of any design flaw in the Olds engine that makes them more problematic with
thermostat failure. I don't claim to be an Olds expert, Whereas Mondelo? Certainly.
It does seem every engine builder has pet tricks and theories that are not accepted by all. Which is probably true of all of us to some extent as
well.

But as Mr Fisher points out, it can work with only a restrictor in certain applicaions, albeit not all. In Fl, I could probably run with just the
restricor, whereas someone who uses their coach in a very cold climate could not.
--
76 Glenbrook

[gene Fisher]

read here
http://gmcmotorhome.info/engine.html#stat
we have been looking for 20 years for thermostats that fail open

but
no problem use any thing you want
erf

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 8:13 PM, Chris Tyler <dtyl...@tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:

--

Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Bob de Kruyff]

Chris Tyler wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 21:13

> The fact that millions of vehicles have run around on the planet with thermosts argues that they did know what they were doing.
> Yes, stats do fail, and when they do, bad things happen. But Im not aware of any design flaw in the Olds engine that makes them more problematic
> with thermostat failure. I don't claim to be an Olds expert, Whereas Mondelo? Certainly.
> It does seem every engine builder has pet tricks and theories that are not accepted by all. Which is probably true of all of us to some extent as
> well.
>
> But as Mr Fisher points out, it can work with only a restrictor in certain applicaions, albeit not all. In Fl, I could probably run with just the
> restricor, whereas someone who uses their coach in a very cold climate could not.

This all sounds like another fix looking for a problem to support it.

--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Johnny Bridges]

Not an option for me - I do shows in December, January, and February.

--johnny

--
"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[John R. Lebetski]

In Oct we woke to 18 deg and snow out west on I90. A bit below expected but not unheard of. You can't control mother nature. My stock 195 worked as it
should. As it did 2 days earlier in 85 deg and dash air running. And as it should pulling long grades over the majestic Rockies. An engine that dies
from overheating is ultimately the fault of the nut behind the wheel. If you can't feel the characteristics in drivabliity in an overheating engine
and check your gauges, maybe you should only drive a Prius. Given some of the poor longevity of some Mondello engines in MH service duty, maybe a
good 195 stat would have helped Washer = stoneage
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

When we ran in flat motors at Mac's on a test stand, we watched oil temp. There's a pronounced drop when the rings seat. Then we'd pull it off the
stand, put dessicant plugs in one set of spark plug holes, and ship it.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"The road goes on forever, and the party never ends" --Robert Earl Keen

[George Beckman]

Mr ERFisher wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 11:33

> GOPOHERIT
>
> mine does not keep the engine cooler.
> runs 180 all the time
> just do not run the engine hotter for the heater ----
> does not make sense to me to do that
>
> no big deal , do what you will
> erf

In our first GMC, we were doing the Vermont fall colors. One morning we were freezing. Thermostat was stuck open or had junk in it. I stopped at the
first auto parts and got another thermostat and some antifreeze. When we began to drive the warm air from the heater was great.

I use EFI and it judges fuel mixture based on, among other things, water temperature. I don't want my rig running rich in cold weather just because it
thinks it has not warmed up.

When I helped Armand Minnie put in his current engine he got a fail open thermostat. Sounded good to me. There is no way I would drive with a "washer"
stuck where the thermostat is supposed to go. Makes no sense to me.

Remember, racing engines are torn down constantly, hence the different sizes of restrictors.

But, hey, this is America. Do as you feel best.
--
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

[gene Fisher]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM George Beckman <gbec...@graestone.org>
wrote:

Mr ERFisher wrote on Tue, 10 June 2014 11:33

> GOPOHERIT

>

> mine does not keep the engine cooler.

> runs 180 all the time

> just do not run the engine hotter for the heater ----

> does not make sense to me to do that

>

> no big deal , do what you will

> erf





In our first GMC, we were doing the Vermont fall colors. One morning we
were freezing. Thermostat was stuck open or had junk in it. I stopped at the

first auto parts and got another thermostat and some antifreeze. When we
began to drive the warm air from the heater was great.

I feel it is shameful to cook your 455 just for a heater !!!

I use EFI and it judges fuel mixture based on, among other things, water
temperature. I don't want my rig running rich in cold weather just because
it

TURNS OUT, MANY OF US USE 40 YEAR OLD COMPUTERS FOR OUR EFI

I USE HOWELLS ON 2 OF MY 3 GMCS. AND THEY USE THE " WORSTE INJECTORS EVER
MADE"

http://gmc49ers.blogspot.com/2014/12/my-atomic-1973-23.html



ACCORDING TO WITCHHUNTER

http://www.witchhunter.com


SO I DONT NEED ANOTHER BATTLE TO WORRY ABOUT !!

thinks it has not warmed up.

TURNS OUT A THERMOSTAT CAN - ONLY HEAT AN ENGINE- MY MONDELLO RUNS AT 180
, AFTER ONE MILE FROM HOME

When I helped Armand Minnie put in his current engine he got a fail open
thermostat. Sounded good to me. There is no way I would drive with a
"washer"

stuck where the thermostat is supposed to go. Makes no sense to me.

I NEVER THINK ABOUT THERMOSTATS , ONE LESS ISSUE

[Ray Erspamer]

Very interesting thread! I think I'll stick with my 195 stat. I read every post, I think I need to take a few tylenol now.

[Rob Mueller]

If I going to drag race a GMC I'd go with Mondello's recommendation but I'll
stick with the thermostat that has been used in BILLIONS of street vehicles.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

[Dolph Santorine]

Agreed. It’s a whole different thing trying to “cool” an engine used for drag racing!

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[John Heslinga]

GEEE: In Northern Canada, our cooling restrictors look like this. ;>》
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p62088-cooling-restriction-cold-weather.html
At -25C the heater core is almost more cooling capacity than needed for some of the engine operating conditions. The coolant in the Radiator gets
so cold that when the thermostat opens so much cold water comes into the engine that it can never warm up.

The cooling system of our vehicles are designed for extreme conditions (look at the size of our radiators and fans!!) The thermostat is designed to
adjust the amount of cooling for the engines needs.

Removing it and letting free flow will simply over cool the engine when not needed. It's my feeling that if your engine gets up to temperature
without a Thermostat then the capacity of the cooling system is insufficient for extreme conditions and has been restricted in some way. Much the
same we purposely do in the north during cold weather.
--
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta