[GMCnet] New airbags from Cinnabar

[Grant Leonard]

I bought the new airbags from Cinnabar and had them installed by Jeff
Sirum. They seem very good and probably are made offshore.

Cinnabar gets $400. each. I wanted to replace the original airbags with
new ones. They seem just great.
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[Carl Stouffer]

Grant Leonard wrote on Thu, 28 March 2013 12:07

Grant,

I'm sure more people than I are curious about these new Cinnabar air bags. Could you please post a couple of photos?

Thanks
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Rob Mueller]

Carl,

I just got off the phone with Steve up at Cinnabar and the bags that they sell are EXACTLY like the OEM bags.

They come with two aluminum cones and are pre-folded.

They will not sell them without the cones.

Steve confirmed that they are $400 each.

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder

[Carl Stouffer]

Thanks for looking into that Rob. My plan is still to eventually convert to the Q-bag system, but that is another viable alternative for the folks who want to retain single bags.

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Mickey Szilagyi]

Grant,

We are in the process of replacing our OEMs with the new ones from Cinnabar. On the install of your new bags did you put shraeder and shut off valves at the airbags?

Thanks,
Mickey
77 Kingsley 403, Lansing, MI

[gene Fisher]

On the install of your new bags did you put shraeder and shut off valves
at the airbags?

yes
your last line of defense
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5047-schrader-valve-for-air-bags.html

gene

> Thanks,
> Mickey
> 77 Kingsley 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Dennis Sexton]

Grant and Mickey,

Are these new air bags made by Firestone?

Thank you,
Dennis

Mickey Szilagyi wrote on Mon, 01 April 2013 12:13

> Grant,
>
> We are in the process of replacing our OEMs with the new ones from Cinnabar. On the install of your new bags did you put shraeder and shut off valves at the airbags?
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
> 77 Kingsley 403, Lansing, MI

--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[Mickey Szilagyi]

Dennis,

No, they're not made by Firestone. I asked when I ordered them and Cinnabar was protective of who the manufacture is but I asked specifically if it was Firestone and the answer was no. And when I asked if they were made in the US the answer was no but where exactly I couldn't find out. My son was the one who looked them over and I think he mentioned he didn't see any date code or other markings on them. Cinnabar said they were well made and better than the OEMs. They look fine, come with the aluminum cones and we got the install kit that had stainless washers and nuts. We also got the straight fitting that goes into the one end of the bag but I don't think we'll use it. Cinnabar does not recommend putting a shraeder or shut off valve at the airbag but we are doing so to isolated the bag if we have problems in the airline somewhere. We started to install one bag this weekend and got a leak in the 45 fitting we're trying to put first inline at the bag. We used the old f
itting so we're getting new fittings, some permatex 534540 thread sealant and we'll try again perhaps this weekend.

Mickey
77 Kingsley 403, Lansing MI

[Dennis Sexton]

Mickey

Thank you -- great description and just the understanding I wanted.

It will be good to see how the bags wear and if anyone experiences differences versus the original.

Regards,
Dennis



Mickey Szilagyi wrote on Mon, 01 April 2013 14:11

> Dennis,
>
> No, they're not made by Firestone. I asked when I ordered them and Cinnabar was protective of who the manufacture is but I asked specifically if it was Firestone and the answer was no. And when I asked if they were made in the US the answer was no but where exactly I couldn't find out. My son was the one who looked them over and I think he mentioned he didn't see any date code or other markings on them. Cinnabar said they were well made and better than the OEMs. They look fine, come with the aluminum cones and we got the install kit that had stainless washers and nuts. We also got the straight fitting that goes into the one end of the bag but I don't think we'll use it. Cinnabar does not recommend putting a shraeder or shut off valve at the airbag but we are doing so to isolated the bag if we have problems in the airline somewhere. We started to install one bag this weekend and got a leak in the 45 fitting we're trying to put first inline at the bag. We used the old

fitting so we're getting new fittings, some permatex 534540 thread sealant and we'll try again perhaps this weekend.

>
> Mickey
> 77 Kingsley 403, Lansing MI

--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[Charles Wood]

Does anyone have step by step instructions on how to change an airbag (the one on the MH :))
I have one that just sprung (past tense for springed) a leak.
I have an extra 2 and want to install both..
My current ones are 'crumbling' at each end

TIA
CBW
--
CBWood
77 Kingslay
MWC OK

[Thomas Phipps]

"Crumbling" on the ends is not a good indication of serviceability.
Basically, Jack up the coach, remove the rear wheels, (please put the coach on jack stands or wood blocking.) support the boogies, loosen the air bag bolts, deflate the bad air bag, remove the air fittings with air lines, remove bad air bag.
New air bag is easier to install if you allow the boogies to extend down. Don't pinch the air bag o-ring. Apply anti-seize to threads. Re-inflate air bag to about 60 pounds. Re-install wheels, lower coach, inflate air bag to around 80 pounds. bubble check the air fittings. Allow the coach air system to inflate the air bags to the proper pressure for your coach. Check ride height.
Repeat on other side.
Easier with a helper/spotter.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion, under forever re-construction
Vicksburg, MS. 3.7 miles from I-20

[Todd Sullivan]

I would add to that

Brush debris off of the airbag studs and nuts, spray studs and nut with penetrant a day before you plan to remove them.
Lower the coach onto blocking under the bogie bracket with wheels still on.
Relieve air pressure from the bag until the bulk of the coach weight is on the blocking but there is still enough pressure in the bag to keep it oriented while you loosen the non fill port side. Once the non fill port side nut can be easily backed all the way off the stud, tighten it back down to hold the bag still while you remove the fill port side( remove air line and residual bag air first)

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Don Adams]

< Cinnabar does not recommend putting a shraeder or shut off valve at the airbag but we are doing so to isolated the bag if we have problems >

Mikey,
My coach has a schraeder and a shutoff valve mounted to the fender liner with a short line to the bag. The line to the bag is a big curve to allow for the movement of the bag. Saves a bit of pounding on the fittings.

--
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba

[Randy]

I don't take the wheel off
I just use a floor Jack and raise enough to take load off
--
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ

[Charles Wood]

How do you get the bags over the cones?
I have 2 bags that are straight and want to put the extra cones on them before installation (and removal of the old ones).
Thankx

CBW
--
CBWood
77 Kingslay
MWC OK

[John Shotwell]

CB,
check out this fine series by Mr Stockholm:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/air-bag-instalation-replacement/p18215.html

shot
--
John Shotwell
Ridgeville Corners, OH
78 Royale Center Kitchen
Web Site: GMCmhRegistry.com /
Email: jo...@gmcmhregistry.com

[Jim Kanomata]

One can pre fold the bag and form the pocket for the cone on both ends,
then place the cones and then bolt them in and air it up.
Being it being a new bag, it is easy to fold . Old ones are considerably
harder to fold.
We have stock of these new bags now.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[John Pryzbylek]

Visited Cinnabar last week to pick up cockpit pedestals for my newly acquired Honda seats. Steve showed me the new airbags on a table top mock-up of the coach's suspension system. Bags looked good, bag price $400, including cones, and I believe an additional $13 for the plated washers and nut hardware.
Cinnabar appeared to have several pallets of the new airbags on the racks in their warehouse! I did not ask Steve where the bags were manufactured.
--
John
1976 GMC Eleganza II - "The Never Ending Story"
Partial Restoration - a work in progress
455cc
NW Ohio
Member of the GMCMI and GMC Great Lakers Motor Home Club

[David Pilon]

Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the airbags? I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.
--
Dave P.
Westland, MI
75 Palm Beach

[Rob Mueller]

David,

If the Schrader valves are attached to the air bag inlet fitting or in the wheel well and the bag explodes while your putting air
into the bags I'd say that's an AW S#!T!!

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Pilon

Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the
airbags? I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.
--
Dave

[Rick Williams]

When I took my coach to Cinnabar in 2001, they installed schrader valves in the wheel well (not on the bag). It was their recommendation to add this feature.

Rick
--
Rick Williams
Gladstone, Michigan
1978 Eleganza II

[Bob de Kruyff]

westlanddave78 wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 12:58

> Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the airbags? I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.

More parts equal more potential for failure. Many people had failures when the shut off valves where placed on the bag end since they fatigued and broke off. Remotely placed they have some merit but in reality they serve no real purpose. It's better to carry some schrader valves that can screw into the bag if you have a major system failure. I think Cinnabar learned a long time ago that deviating from OEM is usually just work around for poor maintenance.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

[Kelvin Dietz]

On 4/23/2013 8:26 PM, Bob de Kruyff wrote:
>
> westlanddave78 wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 12:58
>> Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the airbags? I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.
> More parts equal more potential for failure. Many people had failures when the shut off valves where placed on the bag end since they fatigued and broke off. Remotely placed they have some merit but in reality they serve no real purpose. It's better to carry some schrader valves that can screw into the bag if you have a major system failure. I think Cinnabar learned a long time ago that deviating from OEM is usually just work around for poor maintenance.

I considered mounting my valves remotely but decided with the right
parts it could mount on the bagand not fatigueand break.

How I did it here...
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/airbag-cutoff-valve/p1836.html

I usually shut the valves if I'm going to be parked for more than a
day. There is a small leak somewhere and the bags will sag on "Hold" if
I don't.

Steel and Stainless parts. No brass where it mattered. Easy to remove
to rotate the bags, too. I have NO idea how it would survive a blown
tire but I don't run tires more than 6 years so I hope to avoid that...

Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR

[Ken Burton]

Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 22:26

> westlanddave78 wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 12:58
> > Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the airbags? I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.
>
> More parts equal more potential for failure. Many people had failures when the shut off valves where placed on the bag end since they fatigued and broke off. Remotely placed they have some merit but in reality they serve no real purpose. It's better to carry some schrader valves that can screw into the bag if you have a major system failure. I think Cinnabar learned a long time ago that deviating from OEM is usually just work around for poor maintenance.

X2

I had a guy on the road call me off of the Black List. He told he had a bag failure. When I showed up with a used bag I found that he had broken off a steel nipple where it went into the air bag fitting and all of the extra plumbing he added was swinging in the breeze. I ended up installing a used bag and had him follow me to the airport which was about 85 miles one way out of his way. He spent the night at my hangar and in the morning I had a machinist friend remove the broken nipple from the original bag. We installed the original bag and sent him on his way. This was a lot of needless work. It he hadn't installed those valves in the first place he never would have had the failure. When I asked why he had them he stated that he saw on the net that they were a good idea.

I can see them as a temporary fix but I would not leave them installed permanently. Carry a pair of spare schrader valves if necessary. I have a spare pair in my coach somewhere.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Jim Bounds]

The air bag shut off kit was the first system mod I was involved in way back in the CLASCO days.  Even back then folks faught having a backup, a countermeasures, a second way to put air into the air bags.  I think it was short sighted then and sorry but I still do.  As important as it is to have the rear suspension up, why would it not be a positive thing to be able to charge the bags is all else fails.  The kit we still produce though not as many are sold since we have discovered the merits of having a seperate air bag that will hold up each wheel seperatly but our kit is removely mounted on the wheel well with an air line connecting it to the air bag.  The quad bag system uses a manifold with 3 valves, one for each air bag with a third to isolate the system from the coach in case as in the case of the system we are talking about-- the air delivery system takes a dump.
 
As far as adding components and the reliability aspect of adding a shut off valve and filler (schrader valve) goes, some peope used "needle valves" which really are not that secure a design.  The hifh quality ball valves that we and most of the rest of the free world have used (they have yelly paddles, made in Italy) use a viton seal and are extremely reliable abd the schrader valve has a steel cap to backup the seal so I see no degrading of the system using this sort of air shut off kit.
 
Changing things just to change them is in my book silly but considering new ideas, materials, technologies and products adapting them to our classic state of the art vehicle to me is only right.  Folks that only stay with the "original" I feel are missing the whole idea,
 
Having backups or countermeasures for key systems on your coach can only be called good.  When you are in the middle of nowhere and your alternator dies, your air compressor gives up, you have vapor lock, your door jams, you have a flat, burn out a rear wheel bearing, loose a battery, throw all but 1 belt from your motor and more, wouldn't it be nice to have a backup system to keep you going-- and coming up with cuss words while standing in an ant bed with a cresent wrench trying to remove the air line in your bag to thread in a schrader valve is not one of the things I relish doing!  If you do, go for it man...
 
Jim Bounds
-----------------------------


________________________________
From: Ken Burton <n9...@comcast.net>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New airbags from Cinnabar

[Johnny Bridges]

I have the antepenultimate backup =- small Volkswagen trundling happily along behind.  The untimate would I suppose be to hang it off the back of the coach on a pairof davits so the wheels were off the ground.
Realistically, you have to stop someplace and 'ship it'.  The PO put or had put a fill valve and nylon ball shutoff valves which weigh pretty much nothing on the air bags.  Minimum connects, not a lot of places to leak when the valves are closed.  12V WalMart compressor in a cabinmet along with a spare bag.  I think I'm covered.

From: Jim Bounds <gmc...@yahoo.com>
To: "gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New airbags from Cinnabar

The air bag shut off kit was the first system mod I was involved in way back in the CLASCO days.  Even back then folks faught having a backup, a countermeasures, a second way to put air into the air bags.  I think it was short sighted then and sorry but I still do.  As important as it is to have the rear suspension up, why would it not be a positive thing to be able to charge the bags is all else fails.  The kit we still produce though not as many are sold since we have discovered the merits of having a seperate air bag that will hold up each wheel seperatly but our kit is removely mounted on the wheel well with an air line connecting it to the air bag.  The quad bag system uses a manifold with 3 valves, one for each air bag with a third to isolate the system from the coach in case as in the case of the system we are talking about-- the air delivery system takes a dump.
 
As far as adding components and the reliability aspect of adding a shut off valve and filler (schrader valve) goes, some peope used "needle valves" which really are not that secure a design.  The hifh quality ball valves that we and most of the rest of the free world have used (they have yelly paddles, made in Italy) use a viton seal and are extremely reliable abd the schrader valve has a steel cap to backup the seal so I see no degrading of the system using this sort of air shut off kit.
 

Having backups or countermeasures for key systems on your coach can only be called good.  When you are in the middle of nowhere and your alternator dies, your air compressor gives up, you have vapor lock, your door jams, you have a flat, burn out a rear wheel bearing, loose a battery, throw all but 1 belt from your motor and more, wouldn't it be nice to have a backup system to keep you going-- and coming up with cuss words while standing in an ant bed with a cresent wrench trying to remove the air line in your bag to thread in a schrader valve is not one of the things I relish doing!  If you do, go for it man...
 
Jim Bounds
-----------------------------


________________________________
 

Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 22:26
> westlanddave78 wrote on Tue, 23 April 2013 12:58
> > Besides their usual "not invented here" mentality, what is Cinnabar's concern about Schrader valves and shut-off valves for the airbags?  I cannot see anything detrimental to the system in their use.
>
> More parts equal more potential for failure. Many people had failures when the shut off valves where placed on the bag end since they fatigued and broke off. Remotely placed they have some merit but in reality they serve no real purpose. It's better to carry some schrader valves that can screw into the bag if you have a major system failure. I think Cinnabar learned a long time ago that deviating from OEM is usually just work around for poor maintenance.



X2

I had a guy on the road call me off of the Black List.  He told he had a bag failure.  When I showed up with a used bag I found that he had broken off a steel nipple where it went into the air bag fitting and all of the extra plumbing he added was swinging in the breeze.  I ended up installing a used bag and had him follow me to the airport which was about 85 miles one way out of his way.  He spent the night at my hangar and in the morning I had a machinist friend remove the broken nipple from the original bag.   We installed the original bag and sent him on his way.  This was a lot of needless work.  It he hadn't installed those valves in the first place he never would have had the failure.   When I asked why he had them he stated that he saw on the net that they were a good idea. 

I can see them as a temporary fix but I would not leave them installed permanently.  Carry a pair of spare schrader valves if necessary.   I have a spare pair in my coach somewhere.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB

[Jim Bounds]

So I've been trying to watch this thread for a while, DID Cinnabar have Firestone or someone else build again the original air bag?  If so, I sure hope the price for them go back down.  I mean of course taking a technology step forward will and always will cost more, the cost of the original bags were lifted to "what market will bear" when they became obsolete.  The cost of a single bag system should be less than a quad bag set up, there are piles of reasons a quad bag system costs more.
 
So is there a new (old) air bag out now and what does it cost?
 
Jim Bounds
---------------


________________________________
From: Rick Williams <rgw...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 7:07 PM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New airbags from Cinnabar

[Todd Sullivan]

$400 per side including cones. Made over seas.

Imagine what they would be charging if there were no alternatives eh?

Sully
76 royale

Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Dennis Sexton]

JimB,

Yes, it has been reported that Cinnabar has purchased an off-shore production of replacement air bags, with cones, and the price is $400 per side, plus $13 for new washers, nuts, etc.
I understood JimK to say in a recent post that he also has some inventory.

What we do not know is the expected life nor any durability testing completed on these new air bags -- and no warranty has been quoted. If they perform as the originals their value should be in their long life -- OEM bags achieved 15-20 year service life. As compared to the newer air bag systems where the value was more in the hardware which allowed the use of less expensive bags.

For a number of reasons I prefer the OEM air bags -- so take my bias into consideration.

Dennis

Jim Bounds wrote on Wed, 24 April 2013 07:20

> So I've been trying to watch this thread for a while, DID Cinnabar have Firestone or someone else build again the original air bag?  If so, I sure hope the price for them go back down.  I mean of course taking a technology step forward will and always will cost more, the cost of the original bags were lifted to "what market will bear" when they became obsolete.  The cost of a single bag system should be less than a quad bag set up, there are piles of reasons a quad bag system costs more.
>  
> So is there a new (old) air bag out now and what does it cost?
>  
> Jim Bounds

--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[Jim Kanomata]

Jim B,
The bags are from overseas and not made by Firestone.
The cones are made here and installed here.
We have them in stock if anyone wants them.
$400 ea.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Byron Songer]

Dennis,

I'm with you. The OEM setup was for a reason. GMC bragged about that for
some time and demonstrated the superiority of the design by driving over 4x4
posts. In slow motion one can see the reason the bogie and single bag
existed. Of course, that was before people wanted to start hauling their
cars with them.

The double-bag system may be superior for stability but it changes the whole
concept of the original design yielding a firmer ride for a more stable rear
end when pulling an Olds Silhouette.

The 1978 we bought in 2007 still had one original bag in place. In 2008 I
replaced both the original bag and the replacement bag (I had no record of
when it was replaced).

Raising the coach and letting the bags extend is a good idea because at that
time you can flush the bags of a good bit of road debris. The bags don't
like that gritty feeling. I wonder why? Are they human?

Byron Songer
Louisville, KY

Dennis Sexton wrote:

> For a number of reasons I prefer the OEM air bags -- so take my bias into
> consideration.
>
> Dennis

[Sigmund Frankenfelter]

I suppose if you have to have original stuff, these are ok.

It's hard for me to justify them at that price though, when you could have gotten the Sully system and US made Firestone bags for a little less - with future purchases per bag at less than $200 each - I paid about $150 each.

With the Sully bags driving at 40 pounds PSI, which is less than half of what the OEM bags needed, the work required by my compressors/inflators is dramatically reduced.

I can't tell the difference in the driving.

Paid about $ 750 - $775 total for Sully's galvanized hardware and bags.

I hope it works for you, but I am satisfied so far with what I did.

[Todd Sullivan]

Thanks Sig.
The exact cost including Washington state sales tax and no shipping due to local pickup was $438
The air springs can be obtained on line or from Jim Kanomata at applied for $139 or so each w/o sales tax or freight. Total cost of $716 for a complete plug and play rear air spring set up in hot dip galvanized plating.

Sully
77 royale

Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Jim Kanomata]

Todd,
You are one of the people that is keeping the price of the Cinnabar
bag price low. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I will need to send over a beautiful lady at your place to pull your
pants down and spank you.
OH' on second thought, I will not do that as I know you will enjoy it
tooooo much.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Todd Sullivan]

Hahaaaaaa!

Mind reader u r

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

Nothing like a bit of competition to get prices down, eh?

I really like my Sullybilt system. Now I just need to get a working power train!

Mac in OKC
"The Money Pit"


Sent from my iPad