[GMCnet] Tiny leak on the engine water pump. Suggestions?

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Hello,
While under the front end today changing out a axel shaft, I noticed a couple drops of anti freeze by the seep hole on the engine water pump. I have
not had any problems with the water pump previously. It has 12,000 miles on it, and no squeaks while running.
Is there anything I should be concerned about? Possible pending bearing failure? Or is this nothing to really worry about since the weep hole is there
for a reason?
I plan on replacing my alternator in the next few days, and that could be the opportune time to replace the water pump if needed.
Thanks,
Scott
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

[Todd Sullivan via Gmclist]

Water coming out the weep hole indicates a bad seal. Might as well do the
pump now if under warranty.

Sully
Bellevue wa

[Larry via Gmclist]

sgltrac wrote on Wed, 18 September 2019 17:08

Change it now or change it on the road. Count your blessings here. Be glad it happened in your driveway.
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

What Larry said. Times 2. Fix it when you find it. Or, when it fails on the
road.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 5:36 PM Larry via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
wrote:

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Ok.
Good advice.. going to napa tomorrow to get one. Or any other favorite brands out there??The one I'm replacing is a Tuff-Stuff water pump. Supposedly
made in the USA. But only lasted 2 years and 12,000 easy miles...
Scott.

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

Get the Cardone Select one. Part # 55-21118H The H on the end of the number is very important. The same number without the H is NOT what you want.
Start with Jim K. at Applied GMC. If he is out of stock, then try the others like Rock Auto or Summit. Cardone was selling them direct. They are
all about the same price, so go with Jim K. if he has them.

Here is thread on it from about 1.5 years ago:

http://www.gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=tree&goto=341053&rid=12&srch=cardone#page_top

My second recommendation is to throw two cans of water pump lube in the antifreeze when you are done installing the new one. What usually happens on
low mileage water pump seal failures is the seal sticks to the shaft when they are parked for extended periods of time. Then on the next start up a
piece of seal gets damaged.

A few dollars for 2 cans of water pump lube prevents that. You can get it for $5.00 or $6.00 at your local auto parts store. All it is, is a medium
weight oil that mixes well with antifreeze and water. I do not care what brand you get and you do not need all of the other additive crap being sold.
Just get the cheap lube.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Water+pump+lubricant&ref=nb_sb_noss




--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Billy Massey via Gmclist]

That's bad news on the Tuff Stuff water pump. I installed that same pump a
year and a half ago on Tom Pryors advice. He found it to be the best
option while developing his electric clutch fan drive back then.

The Cardone model is his current recomendation.

Guess I'd better get busy and find a replacement, JIC.

This is very concerning news. :-\
bdub

[Jon Roche via Gmclist]

Waterpumps have been a problem. I installed a cardone Part # 55-21118H one last year, but it seems I bought one of the last remaining. last winter,
I think even Jim K could not get his hands on one. Most places would let you order, then back-order it and keep back ordering it. Some claimed
some car quest had the re-boxed one, but that was found not consistent over the 50 states.

Dolph was the last one I remember still had a pump on backorder, so I don't know if they ever fixed the ordering. I know a few people have been
ordering the milodens. but those are big money.

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

You would think that slimy slippery ethylene glycol 50/50 would keep the seal lubricated on it's own! Water pump lubricant should really be labeled
as "Water pump shaft seal lubricant" as it's not a substitute for the factory bearing grease.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Emery Stora via Gmclist]

John
Ethylene glycol alone is not a good lubricant but manufacturers of good antifreeze put in water pump lube, antifoam, rubber antiswell and corrosion inhibitors. If one changes the antifreeze every two years it really Isn’t necessary to add additional water pump lube.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick CO

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Ken,
No one has the cardone select 55-21118H........ I even call the manufacturer and they said they were not making them any more. Their reasoning was a
lack of good cores to remanufacture them.....
My back up plan is a water pump from Napa. Their new pump is part # TFW 43100, their remanufactured part # is WP 58295 H. Both are within $5.00 of
each other. Standard rotation on the new pump, clockwise on the reman one.
Any recommendations on what pump to go with? I'm leaning towards the new one..
Thanks, Scott.

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

I've had good luck with the GMB premium, heavy duty pump I put on my engine when I did the rebuild two + years ago.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[Robert J. Gogan via Gmclist]

Just spent $660 for labor for a failed water pump last week after a $330 tow that took 3hrs to arrive last week. Highly suggest replacing the water
pump before it fails at an inopportune time. Ordered Jim K's aluminum high volume roller bearing pump. Was reminded that it is absolutely necessary
to have the spring in the coolant return line to keep it from collapsing esp with the high volume pump.
Bob Gogan

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Carl,
Did you go with the aluminum GMB water pump?
Looks like have 3 different pumps to offer. OEM with 6 blades on the impeller, Hi performance with 7 blades, and the aluminum one with 8 blades on the
impeller.
According to the photos on amazon, the hi performance and aluminum pumps are from Japan. MUCH better than the Chinese ones..
Just adding to the confusion!!
Scott.

[Larry Davick via Gmclist]

Is this a good time to talk about double pulley setup on the alternator and the reduced tension it requires? I've always been concerned about the
effect of pulling the belt so tight with a single pulley. With absolutely no evidence to support it I'm certain (maybe 49% certain) that very tight
belts exacerbate water pump failure.
--
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

That is an interesting excuse because the 55-21118-H is a new, not rebuilt, item supplied by Cardone Select, and not Cardone the rebuilder. In the
end it is all the same corporation but different companies.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

Scott Nutter wrote on Thu, 19 September 2019 10:56

> Carl,
> Did you go with the aluminum GMB water pump?
> Looks like have 3 different pumps to offer. OEM with 6 blades on the impeller, Hi performance with 7 blades, and the aluminum one with 8 blades on

> the impeller. Part #130-1260.

> According to the photos on amazon, the hi performance and aluminum pumps are from Japan. MUCH better than the Chinese ones..
> Just adding to the confusion!!
> Scott.

Scott,

I really don't remember which pump I went with. It was NOT aluminum. I can probably look through my paperwork later and find the part number.

--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

There was talk about trying to identify the part number for the rolled bearing in the “H” cardone pump. Did anyone have success with that? Knowing the bearing number gets us one step closer.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I bought mine off Cardone Select a while back. Called them to confirm the -H was in fact a roller front bearing. I asked about core charge and the
guy said they are new construction, not rebuilds. Looked new, too. Howsomever, I had overheat problems on startup with the new engine. Radiator
back from the shop, I'm ready to try again.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

I spent about 4 hours on the phone with every department in the Cardone menu.. no answers to my questions what so ever, except that they were no
longer in production. Very secretive company. They couldn't even tell me who did their ordering. That was odd.
But finally got a hold of a tech that said the best they could do is to send them a core and they would rebuild it. Their rebuilders are in Harlingen
Texas, the rebuilders also do the remanufactured water pumps for Napa.
But Carl S mentioned that he was using a GMB water pump. So I did some research on GMB. They are a large conglomeration out of Japan. their
production facilities are in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and China. Seems to be a very respected corporation that is known for their bearings. And they also
have the correct bearing configuration (rollers and ball bearings). And they are all new castings!!
So my guess is that the water pump nowadays is like the fan clutch. Seems like Hayden makes all the fan clutches, and rebranded by different brands.
So I'm guessing GMB makes all the NEW water pumps, and rebranded by others, including Napa..
What a PITA......
Scott.

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

Did you manage to get a part number for the GMB pump with roller bearing?

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

GMB has 3 different types of water pumps for the 455-403 engines.

1st- part number is 130-1260. **This is Not for our motorhomes** it is for non air conditioned motors.. has a 6 blade impeller.

2nd- part number is 130-1260P. This is the hi-performance model. For air conditioned engines. Cast iron body, 8 blade impeller.

3rd- part number is. 130-1260AL. This is the same as the hi-performance model, but has the aluminum body. Mostly used in race applications where
weight would be an issue.
GMB 130-1260P High Performance Series Water Pump with Gasket https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JYFL6K/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_odpHDb26VJKB0

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

Scott,
From your info, is it safe to assume that all 3 GMB part numbers use the roller bearing?

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Les,
Before I can say a definite, let me check with a tech there. I will have a answer for you on this Monday.
But in the mean time, I'm going to guess and say yes.
Scott.

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Ok....
This is straight from the source...The Assistant Manager, Product Management, GMB North America..

*Water Pumps*
130-1260: regular water pump, made in China, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.
130-1260p: Hi-Performance water pump, made in Japan, higher flow rate, higher quality bearings.
130-1260AL: Aluminum housing, made in Japan, regular flow rate, standard quality bearings.

"For the above water pumps, they are all with roller bearing and ball bearing combination. But with different quality on the bearings."

I opted to go with the 130-1260 P hi performance pump. I just need to make sure I have the spring in the radiator hose, and that I don't over tension
the fan belts. I think that's how I sent the current pump to it's grave....
Scott.

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

Scott,
Thanks for taking the time to sort this out. Someone now needs to catalog this info so that it is easily found by anyone who cares.

Not all replacement parts are suitable or durable enough for our application. Having access to the detailed info so we can share it with the inexperienced is important.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Les,
I still need to get back with the project manager with GMB. He might have given me false info for the 130-1260AL, the aluminum pump. My questions are
about the flow. The aluminum pump has the same number of impellers as the hi performance pump. So that would translate to hi flow. He told me that the
aluminum pump was standard flow. I think what he meant to say was "standard rotation". Regular flow rate would be with 1 less impeller blade.....
And 2nd question will be standard quality bearings on the aluminum water pump. Since it appears to be the hi flow rate impeller, I would think they
would have heavier duty bearings.. and it's also the most expensive of all their pumps..
And once again, all their pumps are NEW....
As far as reliable goes??? Who knows........
I think Carl S has been running his GMB for a couple of years with no complaints, but he is a better mechanic that I am!!!

[Charles Boyd via Gmclist]

Sir, Didn't you say Cardone built the pimps for NAPA? Didn't you say NAPA rebuilt pumps # ended with a H? Does that mean they have the roller
bearing instead of ball bearing? I think I would consider any pump impeller with the roller bearing.




Scott Nutter wrote on Mon, 23 September 2019 17:58

> Les,
> I still need to get back with the project manager with GMB. He might have given me false info for the 130-1260AL, the aluminum pump. My questions
> are about the flow. The aluminum pump has the same number of impellers as the hi performance pump. So that would translate to hi flow. He told me
> that the aluminum pump was standard flow. I think what he meant to say was "standard rotation". Regular flow rate would be with 1 less impeller
> blade.....
> And 2nd question will be standard quality bearings on the aluminum water pump. Since it appears to be the hi flow rate impeller, I would think
> they would have heavier duty bearings.. and it's also the most expensive of all their pumps..
> And once again, all their pumps are NEW....
> As far as reliable goes??? Who knows........
> I think Carl S has been running his GMB for a couple of years with no complaints, but he is a better mechanic that I am!!!
>
> Scott.


--

C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

OK people. I looked up the 21118H pump and Pep Boys shows it in stock, BUT it is not available online. It is only available in stores. So I called
two Pep Boys stores in the Chicago suburbs (we do not have any here) and asked for that specific number. Both claimed they had it in stock. Then I
asked that they pull the item from the shelf and read the number off of the box. Both said the number agrees with what I asked for with the H suffix.
I was going to stop by one of the stores tomorrow when I made one of rare forays into that country but plans changed and I am headed 110 miles the
other direction.

So if you are near a Pep Boys, stop by and ask for this pump by part number. Maybe you will get lucky.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Maybe something lost in translation. Napa uses the same rebuilders that Cardone uses. I don't know the name of the rebuilders, but they are in south
Texas close to Harlingen.. Cardone does NOT make any more new pumps.... Cardone says the quality control is very high... But what else would they
say?? They make a crappy pizza? Cardone is a very hard corporation to get any correct info out of.....

--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

Cardone Industries, based out of Pennsylvania (I believe it's in Philly), is the largest independently owned rebuilder of automotive parts in the
world. It has two sections that I know of. A1 Cardone which is all of the rebuilt stuff and Carson Select which is all of the new manufacture stuff.


All most all of the retailers of rebuilt automotive parts in the US and Canada, including NAPA, Rock Auto, AZ, Oreilies, Advanced, etc, get their
rebuilt products from Cardone. So as far as rebuilt products goes it is almost all the same no matter whose name is on the box.

A1 Cardone does have at least one rebuild site Matamors Mexico directly across the river from Brownsville, TX a site of a Cardone facility and not far
south of their Harlingen,TX facility. I am not sure what gets rebuilt in each of the three facilities.
There is also a factory or rebuild facility in Pennsylvania.

Cardone Select is a part of the company that develops new products and either makes or contracts others to make them for them. The pump we wanted was
a Cardone Select product and was made in I do not know where.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

FWIW, I'm leery of those stamped steel impellers in high load applications.... I know in the Mazda world, on cars that see any track or heavy use,
those stamped impellers (such as those used on the GMB pump) have been known to cause cooling issues... It's recommended to stick with cast impellers
(which are getting harder to find) in those applications. But it's also possible that the stamped impellers causing issue, may have just had too low
a blade count....

I'm running the Flow Kooler pump (which incidentally, uses a GMB aluminum casting with Flow Kooler's impeller) and it seems to be working fine... But
it was not inexpensive. However, I live in Texas and sometimes tow a jeep, so I wanted to make sure lack of water flow was not going to cause me any
issue....

If I were to go with the GMB, I would definitely go with one of the ones with the higher blade count.

Here is the GMB pump, for what it's worth:

https://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/products/1775-1971-1990-buick-cadillac-chevy-gm-olds-pontiac-6-tall-water-pump
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Definitely a option. When I pull off the TuffStuff water pump I'll be curious to see what style of impeller it has.
Scott.

--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

[Billy Massey via Gmclist]

It's a 3.875" stamped impeller.

bdub

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 3:22 AM Scott Nutter via Gmclist wrote:

> Definitely a option. When I pull off the TuffStuff water pump I'll be
> curious to see what style of impeller it has.
> Scott.
>

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

Back when Leigh Harrison was developing a reverse flow waterpump for the
Olds, to go with his serpentine belt mod, a prototype failed on me -- the
stamped impeller came apart and jammed the pump. Leigh referred me to the
chief engineer for one of the largest water pump manufacturers, who was
helping him. It turned out that the shaft was not perpendicular to the
housing placing asymmetrical forces on the impeller. But during the
conversation I brought up the cast impellers. His reply was to the effect
that "only those Arabs filling their radiators from muddy desert rivers
need cast impellers". He had lots to say in favor of the stamped impellers
too. That was the only similar failure I've ever had. I DO, however,
think that the flat plate that FlowKool rivets to the vanes probably does
add considerable strength to the impeller.

Ken H.

[Richard H Staples via Gmclist]

In regard to the elusive Cardone Select "H" pump, Ken wrote "The pump we wanted was a Cardone Select product and was made in I do not know where."

Just went out to the barn and retrieved my Cardone Select "H" pump I got from Rock Auto last year. (After a several month wait. They no longer say
it's available.) As I had recalled, it was made in China, beautiful casting and machine work, six (6!) bladed stamped impeller (but quite large
diameter with a full face plate on it). I posted diameter in a previous discussion IIRC. Returned the pump to its hidden secure location until it's
needed. ;)

The fact they were made in China may relate to their discontinuance, with all the new tariffs raising the cost significantly. I fear we will see more
parts becoming unavailable or expensive over the next year and a half, as the Trade & Ego wars rage on.

My .02.
Rick Staples


--
Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

I have no problem paying a premium for a part made here. As long it's the same quality that we we used to produce. But those days might be gone also..

--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

[Larry Davick via Gmclist]

Scott - that made me laugh!

I never want to go back to the “good old days” when I’d routinely swap out starters, alternators, water pumps, etc. Quality parts made in the U.S.A. were not on the build list for any car I bought back when.

I’m a believer that high quality is a management decision, not a regional one. The stuff DELCO built for NASA was likely second to none. The alternator on my ’78 Caprice, not so delicious… When management decides that quality engineering is very important then it can be built in many places. Nobody complains about the build quality of an iPhone (made in China.) I love our Tesla, built right here in Fremont!

Our coaches were built to a very high standard in a time when GM made some real trash. I’m sorry to be on this soapbox, but your note made me chuckle and think with great reminiscence of a time that only existed in my imagination.

Back to your regularly scheduled GMC content!

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach

Fremont, CA
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Distributor

[Scott Nutter via Gmclist]

Larry,
Thank you for your insight, I guess we have just had different experiences with American made parts.
But I WILL continue to go out of my way to buy North American produced parts, hopefully with North American produced innards..
Just who I am.....
Scott.