[GMCnet] Olds 455 Engine Oil Flow Path
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Rob Mueller
Jun 16, 2013, 2:49:48 PM6/16/13
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G'day,
There has been much speculation regarding the recommendation not use the oil cooler in the radiator after an engine failure. It is
the intent of this email to review the engine oil flow path to form a consensus if that is correct or not.
This message was prepared by John Sharpe and myself.
Oil Flow Path in a 455 / 403 powered GMC Motorhome
Below is a picture of the inside of the oil cooler / filter adapter.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49551-oil-cooler-filter-ad.html
There are three “ports’ in the concave center section; from right to left they are:
1) oil entry port from the engine oil pump
2) oil cooler adapter mount and oil return to the engine
3) 5.3 to 6.3 psi bypass valve and return to engine
The distance from the center of the oil entry port to the center of the bypass valve is about 1 ¼ inches.
The oil flow path is as follows:
From the oil pump into the concave section of the oil cooler / filter adapter through the port on the right.
From the concave section of the oil cooler / filter adapter to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter through a hose / tube to the oil cooler in the radiator.
Through the oil cooler in the radiator.
From the oil cooler in the radiator back through a hose / tube to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter to the OD of the oil filter (outside the filter element).
From the OD of the oil filter to the ID of the oil filter (through the filter element).
From the oil filter into the engine through the center port in the oil filter adapter.
Below is a picture of the interface between the engine block and the oil cooler / filter adapter.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49548-block-oil-cooler-fil.html
Oil enters the oil cooler / filter adapter via the upper port and back into to the engine via the lower port. The lower port has two
feeds; one from the oil filter the second; the bypass valve.
Below is a picture of the oil cooler / filter adapter with the bypass valve removed. Note the “poppet guides” at 12:00 – 4:00 –
8:00. Using deep well sockets I measured the ID of those guides and found that they tapered inwards as the bore got deeper. At the
top the ID was 0.576 inches, in the middle the ID was 0.558 inches, and at the bottom it was 0.543 inches.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49549-bypass-poppet-removed.html
Below is a picture of the bypass valve seat, poppet, and spring.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49550-bypass-poppet.html
If you look closely at the poppet you will see one flat area (at about 2:00). The fit of the poppet in between the three guides left
a bit to be desired as it varied from 0.533 to 0.517 inches OD (where the flat spot was).
Below you will find the oil flow schematic and write up for the 455 / 403 engine as found in the Maintenance Manual (MM).
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49554-engine-lubricating-system.html
MM write up below:
Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil pan. The pressurized oil from the pump passes
through the engine oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on the right rear side of the engine
block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
It then enters the right gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The right bank valve lifters receive oil from
this gallery from eight feed holes that intersect the gallery.
The line drawing below of the oil flow external to the engine can be found in the MM.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49555-external-oil-path.html
As a guesstimate the total length of the hoses to / from the engine is 9 feet.
The line drawing of the oil filter / cooler adapter / filter below can be found in the MM.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49558-oil-cooled-filter-adapter.html
As a guesstimate the oil cooler adapter is 1 1/4 inches tall.
Below is a picture of the screen in the oil pump pickup.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49557-oil-pump-intake-screen.html
Using a numbered drill we determined that the size of the “square holes” in the screen were 0.055 inches in width and height. With
the help of Pythagoras the corner to corner measurement of the “square holes” was calculated to be 0.077 inches. Therefore in theory
the largest size particle that can enter the oil pump is 0.077 inches. Yes, I realize a sliver that was less than that in width and
height could be longer, however it would have to pass through the screen lengthwise.
Given all the information above we believe the cold oil bypass flow path to be:
1) engine starter turns the engine / distributor / oil pump
2) oil is sucked through the screen and into the oil pump
3) oil is pumped into the concave area of the oil cooler / filter adapter
4) oil is thick and the pressure differential across the bypass valve exceeds 5.3 to 6.3 psi
5) the bypass valve opens and oil is returned to the engine
Why would the oil take the following flow path?
1) from the oil cooler / filter adapter to the oil cooler adapter
2) through 4 ½ feet of hose to the radiator cooler
3) through the radiator oil cooler
4) back through 4 ½ feet of hose
5) into the oil cooler adapter
6) Into the oil cooler / filter adapter
7) Through the bypass valve
Instead of the 1 ¼ inches from the inlet to the bypass valve in the concave area in the oil cooler / filter adapter!
Comments / observations please.
Now lets move on to the recommendation to cease use of the radiator oil cooler after an engine failure.
Below is a photograph of a failed piston:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49556-failed-piston.html
How much contamination would you guesstimate this failure generated? An ounce or two?
Let’s say that the owner of this GMC continued to drive the GMC and ignore the noise the engine made (he did not) and it lead to the
top of the piston fracturing. That would create another couple of ounces – MAYBE.
Let’s say the owner was a complete idiot (he is not) and kept driving until the bearing on the rod this piston was attached to
failed. That would add an ounce or so to the contamination.
I reckon as a worst case scenario you might get 6 ounces of contamination in the oil cooler from a catastrophic engine failure.
Comments / observations please.
Finally let’s discuss the cleaning of the radiator oil cooler.
Let’s say the engine failure puts 6 ounces of contamination into the oil pan. It has to get past the screen in the oil pump pickup
so the largest particles will be 0.0777 inches in size.
Let’s say that all 6 ounces makes it to the oil cooler in the radiator and should be cleaned out.
Someone suggested a pump setup that would pump a high flow of “cleaning solution” backwards through the oil cooler. That makes sense
to me. It should be setup so that you can capture the contamination after it is removed so the amount can be determined and the
makeup determined from a material stand point which would help determine where it came from.
Here’s the punch line – even if you don’t get all of the contamination out of the oil cooler the oil filter will catch it during
normal operation of the engine!
As noted previously engine oil is bypassed BEFORE it gets to the oil cooler / filter adapter meaning the contamination that is not
trapped by the filter can’t get into the engine!
Comments / observations please!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
JohnS
Humble, Texas
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There has been much speculation regarding the recommendation not use the oil cooler in the radiator after an engine failure. It is
the intent of this email to review the engine oil flow path to form a consensus if that is correct or not.
This message was prepared by John Sharpe and myself.
Oil Flow Path in a 455 / 403 powered GMC Motorhome
Below is a picture of the inside of the oil cooler / filter adapter.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49551-oil-cooler-filter-ad.html
There are three “ports’ in the concave center section; from right to left they are:
1) oil entry port from the engine oil pump
2) oil cooler adapter mount and oil return to the engine
3) 5.3 to 6.3 psi bypass valve and return to engine
The distance from the center of the oil entry port to the center of the bypass valve is about 1 ¼ inches.
The oil flow path is as follows:
From the oil pump into the concave section of the oil cooler / filter adapter through the port on the right.
From the concave section of the oil cooler / filter adapter to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter through a hose / tube to the oil cooler in the radiator.
Through the oil cooler in the radiator.
From the oil cooler in the radiator back through a hose / tube to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter to the OD of the oil filter (outside the filter element).
From the OD of the oil filter to the ID of the oil filter (through the filter element).
From the oil filter into the engine through the center port in the oil filter adapter.
Below is a picture of the interface between the engine block and the oil cooler / filter adapter.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49548-block-oil-cooler-fil.html
Oil enters the oil cooler / filter adapter via the upper port and back into to the engine via the lower port. The lower port has two
feeds; one from the oil filter the second; the bypass valve.
Below is a picture of the oil cooler / filter adapter with the bypass valve removed. Note the “poppet guides” at 12:00 – 4:00 –
8:00. Using deep well sockets I measured the ID of those guides and found that they tapered inwards as the bore got deeper. At the
top the ID was 0.576 inches, in the middle the ID was 0.558 inches, and at the bottom it was 0.543 inches.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49549-bypass-poppet-removed.html
Below is a picture of the bypass valve seat, poppet, and spring.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49550-bypass-poppet.html
If you look closely at the poppet you will see one flat area (at about 2:00). The fit of the poppet in between the three guides left
a bit to be desired as it varied from 0.533 to 0.517 inches OD (where the flat spot was).
Below you will find the oil flow schematic and write up for the 455 / 403 engine as found in the Maintenance Manual (MM).
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49554-engine-lubricating-system.html
MM write up below:
Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear of the oil pan. The pressurized oil from the pump passes
through the engine oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on the right rear side of the engine
block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open at 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
It then enters the right gallery where it is distributed to the five main bearings. The right bank valve lifters receive oil from
this gallery from eight feed holes that intersect the gallery.
The line drawing below of the oil flow external to the engine can be found in the MM.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49555-external-oil-path.html
As a guesstimate the total length of the hoses to / from the engine is 9 feet.
The line drawing of the oil filter / cooler adapter / filter below can be found in the MM.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49558-oil-cooled-filter-adapter.html
As a guesstimate the oil cooler adapter is 1 1/4 inches tall.
Below is a picture of the screen in the oil pump pickup.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49557-oil-pump-intake-screen.html
Using a numbered drill we determined that the size of the “square holes” in the screen were 0.055 inches in width and height. With
the help of Pythagoras the corner to corner measurement of the “square holes” was calculated to be 0.077 inches. Therefore in theory
the largest size particle that can enter the oil pump is 0.077 inches. Yes, I realize a sliver that was less than that in width and
height could be longer, however it would have to pass through the screen lengthwise.
Given all the information above we believe the cold oil bypass flow path to be:
1) engine starter turns the engine / distributor / oil pump
2) oil is sucked through the screen and into the oil pump
3) oil is pumped into the concave area of the oil cooler / filter adapter
4) oil is thick and the pressure differential across the bypass valve exceeds 5.3 to 6.3 psi
5) the bypass valve opens and oil is returned to the engine
Why would the oil take the following flow path?
1) from the oil cooler / filter adapter to the oil cooler adapter
2) through 4 ½ feet of hose to the radiator cooler
3) through the radiator oil cooler
4) back through 4 ½ feet of hose
5) into the oil cooler adapter
6) Into the oil cooler / filter adapter
7) Through the bypass valve
Instead of the 1 ¼ inches from the inlet to the bypass valve in the concave area in the oil cooler / filter adapter!
Comments / observations please.
Now lets move on to the recommendation to cease use of the radiator oil cooler after an engine failure.
Below is a photograph of a failed piston:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p49556-failed-piston.html
How much contamination would you guesstimate this failure generated? An ounce or two?
Let’s say that the owner of this GMC continued to drive the GMC and ignore the noise the engine made (he did not) and it lead to the
top of the piston fracturing. That would create another couple of ounces – MAYBE.
Let’s say the owner was a complete idiot (he is not) and kept driving until the bearing on the rod this piston was attached to
failed. That would add an ounce or so to the contamination.
I reckon as a worst case scenario you might get 6 ounces of contamination in the oil cooler from a catastrophic engine failure.
Comments / observations please.
Finally let’s discuss the cleaning of the radiator oil cooler.
Let’s say the engine failure puts 6 ounces of contamination into the oil pan. It has to get past the screen in the oil pump pickup
so the largest particles will be 0.0777 inches in size.
Let’s say that all 6 ounces makes it to the oil cooler in the radiator and should be cleaned out.
Someone suggested a pump setup that would pump a high flow of “cleaning solution” backwards through the oil cooler. That makes sense
to me. It should be setup so that you can capture the contamination after it is removed so the amount can be determined and the
makeup determined from a material stand point which would help determine where it came from.
Here’s the punch line – even if you don’t get all of the contamination out of the oil cooler the oil filter will catch it during
normal operation of the engine!
As noted previously engine oil is bypassed BEFORE it gets to the oil cooler / filter adapter meaning the contamination that is not
trapped by the filter can’t get into the engine!
Comments / observations please!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
JohnS
Humble, Texas
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
John R. Lebetski
Jun 16, 2013, 4:36:10 PM6/16/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Everything you stated is in keeping with how I understood the path. Question is are all oil filters these days properly QCd as in end cap to element seal, and what is the design of the stock cooler A tank within a tank but I thought there was some sort of serpentine diverter in there to increase contact and surface area. Also known to hold on to debris and then release it at will. Need to know more about the cooler itself. If cooler can 'get' us then only defense is a top quality filter.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
noi
Jun 16, 2013, 9:07:50 PM6/16/13
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Rob/JohnS - Nice job and easy to read/follow - Thanks!
Carl P.
anthony ezzo
Jun 16, 2013, 11:53:06 PM6/16/13
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Its kinda funny how you speak of driving with noise.My 500 swap in my car had Quite a few hiccups along the way.All sussed out for the past few years but.After the second rebuild from a cheap broken timing chain crank gear.I had a bang and then a few weeks later at certain rpm it would rod knock and then go away again, sometimes a day,sometimes an hour and sometimes weeks.Well I will link a photo.The rod,bearings
were obliterated.they left a chunk in the pan.It broke the rod cap and bent the ARP's
90 degrees.When the crank would hit what was left of the rod it would blast it up to the top and hence no noise.If the bent valves seated and it sparked it would throw it down to bash the crank.I drove for a few months until I finally did a compression check and found the open hole.Wait till you get to see this stuff.
--
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
anthony ezzo
Jun 16, 2013, 11:57:09 PM6/16/13
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Check this out!!!
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p49567-rod-kill.html
--
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
Ken Burton
Jun 17, 2013, 12:30:37 AM6/17/13
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I received an email today from Dick Paterson today. He was in agreement with what I said. He further stated that he believed the confusion of some people might stand from the fact that there are 3 possible bypass paths in the Olds engine.
1. is the bypass at the oil pump to used prevent over pressurization.
2. is the bypass in the oil filter adapter that we are talking about here.
3. is the bypass located in some oil filters. Use of a bypass filter is not recommended on the Olds 455. Dick stated that if a bypass filter is used on a 455 that you could pass unfiltered oil out of the oil cooler to the engine.
Dick uses and recommends Wix 51258 on the Olds 455.
Whatever filter you choose to use, DO NOT USE A BYPASS FILTER. There is already a bypass located in the oil filter adapter so a bypass filter is unnecessarily.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Rob Mueller
Jul 1, 2013, 12:19:52 AM7/1/13
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John,
I am totally blown away that after 303 views of this message there have been five comments. John and I figger'd we'd start another
tire wars with this one!
NONE of the comments questioned or noted the Oil Flow Path as JohnS and I detailed as being incorrect.
JohnL was the only one that made comments that I feel require addressing which I will do.
"Question is are all oil filters these days properly QC'd as in end cap to element seal"
I agree that if the filter is not made properly it will not filter the oil, however, it will not filter "normal" oil flow as well as
oil flow after an engine failure.
I just purchased a case (12) of Wix Oil filters as I trust them to manufacture them properly.
I don't understand why we need to know the design of the stock or the aluminum radiator oil cooler. Whether it releases the crud
from and engine failure little by little or all at once it still goes through the filter before it returns to the engine.
I mention the following with all due respect.
I just read two different messages to the GMCnet from two owners noting that they:
a) disconnected their oil radiator oil cooler after two engine failures
b) don't trust them because they suffered three engine failures
Given the technical details regarding the oil flow path provided in the first message in this email thread can anyone provide a
solid technical reason to do so?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Lebetski
Everything you stated is in keeping with how I understood the path. Question is are all oil filters these days properly QCd as in
end cap to element seal, and what is the design of the stock cooler A tank within a tank but I thought there was some sort of
serpentine diverter in there to increase contact and surface area. Also known to hold on to debris and then release it at will.
Need to know more about the cooler itself. If cooler can 'get' us then only defense is a top quality filter.
--
John
I am totally blown away that after 303 views of this message there have been five comments. John and I figger'd we'd start another
tire wars with this one!
NONE of the comments questioned or noted the Oil Flow Path as JohnS and I detailed as being incorrect.
JohnL was the only one that made comments that I feel require addressing which I will do.
"Question is are all oil filters these days properly QC'd as in end cap to element seal"
I agree that if the filter is not made properly it will not filter the oil, however, it will not filter "normal" oil flow as well as
oil flow after an engine failure.
I just purchased a case (12) of Wix Oil filters as I trust them to manufacture them properly.
I don't understand why we need to know the design of the stock or the aluminum radiator oil cooler. Whether it releases the crud
from and engine failure little by little or all at once it still goes through the filter before it returns to the engine.
I mention the following with all due respect.
I just read two different messages to the GMCnet from two owners noting that they:
a) disconnected their oil radiator oil cooler after two engine failures
b) don't trust them because they suffered three engine failures
Given the technical details regarding the oil flow path provided in the first message in this email thread can anyone provide a
solid technical reason to do so?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Lebetski
Everything you stated is in keeping with how I understood the path. Question is are all oil filters these days properly QCd as in
end cap to element seal, and what is the design of the stock cooler A tank within a tank but I thought there was some sort of
serpentine diverter in there to increase contact and surface area. Also known to hold on to debris and then release it at will.
Need to know more about the cooler itself. If cooler can 'get' us then only defense is a top quality filter.
--
John
Ken Burton
Jul 1, 2013, 1:18:22 AM7/1/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob, Thanks to you and John for doing the research to prove what I thought was the normal oil flow. We also need to thank Dick Paterson for reenforcing what I thought.
We do need to stress that only recommended oil filters WITHOUT a built in bypass should be used in the GMC.
Ken B.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
John R. Lebetski
Jul 1, 2013, 3:03:38 PM7/1/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Isn't No 1 more of a blowoff/popoff and would have nothing to do with cooler parh junk?
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 2, 2013, 5:00:03 PM7/2/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 01 July 2013 12:03
> Isn't No 1 more of a blowoff/popoff and would have nothing to do with cooler parh junk?
It is my belief that the pop off valve is located on the unfiltered side of the oil filter and when it opens near by crap can enter the engine . This crap likely passed from or thru the cooler before the pop off opened. So the cleaner the unfiltered side of the filter the better. Anyone that thinks fine crap( it has to pass thru the oil pump screen) can't move thru the cooler to the oil filter is taking a chance I wouldn't feel comfortable with.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Rob Mueller
Jul 2, 2013, 8:34:45 PM7/2/13
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Roy,
Did you read the very first message in this thread? Did you look at the pictures?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Did you read the very first message in this thread? Did you look at the pictures?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: r...@gmcnet.org
JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 01 July 2013 12:03
> Isn't No 1 more of a blowoff/popoff and would have nothing to do with cooler parh junk?
It is my belief that the pop off valve is located on the unfiltered side of the oil filter and when it opens near by crap can enter
the engine . This crap likely passed from or thru the cooler before the pop off opened. So the cleaner the unfiltered side of the
filter the better. Anyone that thinks fine crap( it has to pass thru the oil pump screen) can't move thru the cooler to the oil
filter is taking a chance I wouldn't feel comfortable with.
--
Roy
JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 01 July 2013 12:03
> Isn't No 1 more of a blowoff/popoff and would have nothing to do with cooler parh junk?
It is my belief that the pop off valve is located on the unfiltered side of the oil filter and when it opens near by crap can enter
the engine . This crap likely passed from or thru the cooler before the pop off opened. So the cleaner the unfiltered side of the
filter the better. Anyone that thinks fine crap( it has to pass thru the oil pump screen) can't move thru the cooler to the oil
filter is taking a chance I wouldn't feel comfortable with.
--
Roy
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 2, 2013, 9:56:32 PM7/2/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 02 July 2013 17:34
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Rob Mueller
Jul 2, 2013, 11:11:20 PM7/2/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Roy,
The oil filter is DOWNSTREAM of the popoff (5.3 - 6.3 psi bypass) valve.
I would suggest that you print out copies of the pictures linked in the email.
Below the photo of the oil filter adapter is the following description:
There are three “ports’ in the concave center section; from right to left they are:
1) oil entry port from the engine oil pump
2) oil cooler adapter mount and oil return to the engine
3) 5.3 to 6.3 psi bypass valve and return to engine
The distance from the center of the oil entry port to the center of the bypass valve is about 1 ¼ inches.
The oil flow path is as follows:
From the oil pump into the concave section through the port on the right.
From the concave section to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter through a hose / tube to the oil cooler in the radiator.
Through the oil filter to the outlet of the oil filter.
From the oil filter into the engine through the center port in the oil filter adapter.
Therefore there are two ways the oil can get back into the engine:
1) through an open bypass valve 1 1/4 inches from the inlet to the bypass valve.
2) through the oil filter element.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: r...@gmcnet.org
I read it and as I see it the pop off valve will only open if the .pressure across the filter media is approximately 6 lbs or more
at witch time the pop off will open and allow oil on the outer area of the filter to bypass the media and flow into the engine by
way of the pop off valve think about it when the valve opens oil will flow thru it. That is as simple as I can explained it.
Roy Keen
The oil filter is DOWNSTREAM of the popoff (5.3 - 6.3 psi bypass) valve.
I would suggest that you print out copies of the pictures linked in the email.
Below the photo of the oil filter adapter is the following description:
There are three “ports’ in the concave center section; from right to left they are:
1) oil entry port from the engine oil pump
2) oil cooler adapter mount and oil return to the engine
3) 5.3 to 6.3 psi bypass valve and return to engine
The distance from the center of the oil entry port to the center of the bypass valve is about 1 ¼ inches.
The oil flow path is as follows:
From the concave section to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter through a hose / tube to the oil cooler in the radiator.
From the oil cooler in the radiator back through a hose / tube to the oil cooler adapter.
From the oil cooler adapter to the inlet of the oil filter.
Through the oil filter to the outlet of the oil filter.
From the oil filter into the engine through the center port in the oil filter adapter.
1) through an open bypass valve 1 1/4 inches from the inlet to the bypass valve.
2) through the oil filter element.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: r...@gmcnet.org
I read it and as I see it the pop off valve will only open if the .pressure across the filter media is approximately 6 lbs or more
at witch time the pop off will open and allow oil on the outer area of the filter to bypass the media and flow into the engine by
way of the pop off valve think about it when the valve opens oil will flow thru it. That is as simple as I can explained it.
Ken Burton
Jul 3, 2013, 4:27:46 AM7/3/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
The only way for oil to get from the cooler to the engine is through the oil filter. The is no connection to allow oil flow out of the cooler to bypass the filter. It makes no difference whether the bypass valve is open or closed there is still no path for oil cooler oil to get to the engine without going through filter first.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Rob Mueller
Jul 3, 2013, 12:04:13 PM7/3/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Ken,
I can see that despite John and my step by step description people are still confused and don't believe that it is NOT necessary to
remove the radiator oil cooler from the loop.
I think I'll put together a presentation on this for the GMCMI Convention in September and the Coos Bay Rally in October.
Does anyone have a spare oil cooler adapter that goes in between the oil filter adapter and the oil filter?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
I can see that despite John and my step by step description people are still confused and don't believe that it is NOT necessary to
remove the radiator oil cooler from the loop.
I think I'll put together a presentation on this for the GMCMI Convention in September and the Coos Bay Rally in October.
Does anyone have a spare oil cooler adapter that goes in between the oil filter adapter and the oil filter?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Billy Massey
Jul 3, 2013, 2:05:18 PM7/3/13
to GMCnet
I imagine James Harper, in Gladewater, TX, has one he'll loan you if he
hasn't already thrown it away. He advocates not using it since cars don't
and it only introduces more components to fail.
bdub
On Jul 3, 2013 11:04 AM, "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I can see that despite John and my step by step description people are
still confused and don't believe that it is NOT necessary to
> remove the radiator oil cooler from the loop.
>
> I think I'll put together a presentation on this for the GMCMI Convention
in September and the Coos Bay Rally in October.
>
> Does anyone have a spare oil cooler adapter that goes in between the oil
filter adapter and the oil filter?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
hasn't already thrown it away. He advocates not using it since cars don't
and it only introduces more components to fail.
bdub
On Jul 3, 2013 11:04 AM, "Rob Mueller" <robmu...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I can see that despite John and my step by step description people are
still confused and don't believe that it is NOT necessary to
> remove the radiator oil cooler from the loop.
>
> I think I'll put together a presentation on this for the GMCMI Convention
in September and the Coos Bay Rally in October.
>
> Does anyone have a spare oil cooler adapter that goes in between the oil
filter adapter and the oil filter?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
Matt Colie
Jul 3, 2013, 9:24:16 PM7/3/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
bdub wrote on Wed, 03 July 2013 14:05
> I imagine James Harper, in Gladewater, TX, has one he'll loan you if he
> hasn't already thrown it away. He advocates not using it since cars don't and it only introduces more components to fail.
>
> bdub
Bdub and any body else that will listen.
> hasn't already thrown it away. He advocates not using it since cars don't and it only introduces more components to fail.
>
> bdub
Before the coach, I have owned 3 street cars with lube oil coolers external to the engine. I was forced to add a lube oil cooler to a fourth (not a stock configuration).
Just about every marine adaptation of a passcar motor has an external lube oil cooler. AND they are rated at lower horsepower than the passcar version. Do You Believe there might be a reason.
Please leave the oil cooler on your coach. If you choose to remove it, install a lube oil temperature gauge. Then, never run with LOT above 270°F. Why? Because if that is what you are seeing some places are hotter and when dyno oil reaches 305°F that molecule ceases to be lubricating oil - Right Then.... this is not a time/temperature game.
If anybody that ever owned a 442 tried to load the engine like we can any time we meet a hill, he would be in jail (if he survived at all).
Matt - in the comfort of my dinette waiting for the fireworks
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
John R. Lebetski
Jul 3, 2013, 11:57:32 PM7/3/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
I was talking about the pump relief as a Popoff. The 455 oil filter bypass is another 2nd story. ( And the filter itself if you were to use that type as a 3rd). The way I understand it this pump popoff relief is in the event some moron were to start a sub zero engine with 50 weight oil and rev it to 3500 RPM this would save the pump drive gears.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
Ken Burton
Jul 4, 2013, 3:17:32 AM7/4/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
I for one misunderstood what you were talking about. That valve at the pump establishes the maximum pressure that can be reached by the the pump. It bleeds off some oil directly back to the pan to release some of the pressure in the pump.
Thanks for explaining again what you were referring to. I misunderstood the first time around.
Note: this pressure relief valve at the oil pump has nothing to do with changing the route of oil that has run through cooler.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Rob Mueller
Jul 5, 2013, 8:11:11 PM7/5/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
John,
Agreed!
I reckon the moron would shear or strip the hexagonal shaft that drives the gears.
As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get
into the engine.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Agreed!
I reckon the moron would shear or strip the hexagonal shaft that drives the gears.
As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get
into the engine.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Lebetski
I was talking about the pump relief as a Popoff. The 455 oil filter bypass is another 2nd story. ( And the filter itself if you were
to use that type as a 3rd). The way I understand it this pump popoff relief is in the event some moron were to start a sub zero
engine with 50 weight oil and rev it to 3500 RPM this would save the pump drive gears.
--
John
I was talking about the pump relief as a Popoff. The 455 oil filter bypass is another 2nd story. ( And the filter itself if you were
to use that type as a 3rd). The way I understand it this pump popoff relief is in the event some moron were to start a sub zero
engine with 50 weight oil and rev it to 3500 RPM this would save the pump drive gears.
--
John
James Hupy
Jul 5, 2013, 8:20:52 PM7/5/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob, like I have been saying all along, the crap that ruins the bearings is
already in it. NOT IN THE COOLER OR LINES TO IT..It is due to the increased
oil pressure from tight bearings and new oil pump, and failure by the
rebuilder to clean out the oil galleries.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
already in it. NOT IN THE COOLER OR LINES TO IT..It is due to the increased
oil pressure from tight bearings and new oil pump, and failure by the
rebuilder to clean out the oil galleries.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
Rob Mueller
Jul 5, 2013, 9:30:17 PM7/5/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Jim,
I am in total agreement with what you note below; to clean the internal passages the oil gallery plugs should be pulled and brushes
run through them followed by a through flushing.
I'm doing my damnedest trying to convince people that disconnecting the oil cooler in the radiator IS NOT NECESSARY!!!
I have located an oil cooler adapter and will prepare a presentation on oil flow in the 455 / 403 Olds for the GMCMI Convention and
if GMCWS would like me to I'll give it there too.
I am in total agreement with what you note below; to clean the internal passages the oil gallery plugs should be pulled and brushes
run through them followed by a through flushing.
I'm doing my damnedest trying to convince people that disconnecting the oil cooler in the radiator IS NOT NECESSARY!!!
I have located an oil cooler adapter and will prepare a presentation on oil flow in the 455 / 403 Olds for the GMCMI Convention and
if GMCWS would like me to I'll give it there too.
Nick Roenick
Jul 5, 2013, 11:52:10 PM7/5/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob,
We would be happy to have your oil flow presentation at the GMCWS in COOS BAY this fall. You have a great deal of info and our members would benefit greatly. Please contact me directly and we can add your to the roster.
Nick Roenick GMCWS Tech VP
Pickle4katcomcast.net
--
Nick R. NorCal
76-23'Transmode-Norris
Rear Bath
75-26' Avion
Charles Boyd
Jul 6, 2013, 12:02:20 AM7/6/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
"HI-JACK"... Nick you got any pics of your 23' Norris rear bath (Crestmont)? Here is mine..
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5093-crestmont-midas-or-norris.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5571-crestmont.html
Rob has an Avion
pickle4k wrote on Fri, 05 July 2013 23:52
> Rob,
> We would be happy to have your oil flow presentation at the GMCWS in COOS BAY this fall. You have a great deal of info and our members would benefit greatly. Please contact me directly and we can add your to the roster.
> Nick Roenick GMCWS Tech VP
> Pickle4katcomcast.net
--
C. Boyd
> We would be happy to have your oil flow presentation at the GMCWS in COOS BAY this fall. You have a great deal of info and our members would benefit greatly. Please contact me directly and we can add your to the roster.
> Nick Roenick GMCWS Tech VP
> Pickle4katcomcast.net
--
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
Rob Mueller
Jul 6, 2013, 9:31:15 PM7/6/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Nick,
OK, I'll start putting it together when Helen and I hit the road the first week in August. I'll try and gather up as much of the
hardware involved so people have something to touch and feel.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
OK, I'll start putting it together when Helen and I hit the road the first week in August. I'll try and gather up as much of the
hardware involved so people have something to touch and feel.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roenick
Rob,
We would be happy to have your oil flow presentation at the GMCWS in COOS BAY this fall. You have a great deal of info and our
members would benefit greatly. Please contact me directly and we can add your to the roster.
Nick Roenick GMCWS Tech VP
Pickle4katcomcast.net
--
Nick R. NorCal
Rob,
We would be happy to have your oil flow presentation at the GMCWS in COOS BAY this fall. You have a great deal of info and our
members would benefit greatly. Please contact me directly and we can add your to the roster.
Nick Roenick GMCWS Tech VP
Pickle4katcomcast.net
--
Nick R. NorCal
D C _Mac_ Macdonald
Jul 6, 2013, 9:31:31 PM7/6/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent from my iPad
Dan Gregg
Jul 7, 2013, 6:27:49 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Ok, I have read and have no doubts about this. But, I have the external cooler in line and the radiator blocked. Everything is good. I have the hoses to hook the radiator back up but just don't need it..
Maybe one day I will hook it back up.
Thanks for the hard work John and Rob. Look forward to the presentation at Branson.
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
Dexter, Mo.
http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
Rob Mueller
Jul 7, 2013, 7:10:59 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Dan,
Just wondering how you know you don't need the oil cooler in the radiator; do you have a gage that reads oil temperature?
If yes what is the temp range you see?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Just wondering how you know you don't need the oil cooler in the radiator; do you have a gage that reads oil temperature?
If yes what is the temp range you see?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gregg
Ok, I have read and have no doubts about this. But, I have the external cooler in line and the radiator blocked. Everything is good.
I have the hoses to hook the radiator back up but just don't need it..
Maybe one day I will hook it back up.
Thanks for the hard work John and Rob. Look forward to the presentation at Branson.
Dan
Ok, I have read and have no doubts about this. But, I have the external cooler in line and the radiator blocked. Everything is good.
I have the hoses to hook the radiator back up but just don't need it..
Maybe one day I will hook it back up.
Thanks for the hard work John and Rob. Look forward to the presentation at Branson.
Dan
Dan Gregg
Jul 7, 2013, 9:29:39 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
No, but my water temp is still at 180. I figure if the oil gets hotter than normal so will the water. I have always wanted an oil temp gauge.
Rob Mueller
Jul 7, 2013, 10:01:56 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Dan,
I'm going to have to think about this for a bit before I comment.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gregg
I'm going to have to think about this for a bit before I comment.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gregg
No, but my water temp is still at 180. I figure if the oil gets hotter than normal so will the water. I have always wanted an oil
temp gauge.
Dan
temp gauge.
Dan
Ken Burton
Jul 7, 2013, 10:15:20 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 07 July 2013 20:29
> No, but my water temp is still at 180. I figure if the oil gets hotter than normal so will the water. I have always wanted an oil temp gauge.
> Dan
That normally is a good assumption except that your oil is no longer exchanging heat with the coolant in the radiator. So the you can not rely on that. I'm not saying that your oil is colder or hotter with your air exchange type cooler. I'm just saying that without a gauge you just do not know.
> Dan
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Dan Gregg
Jul 7, 2013, 10:48:31 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Lets put one on at Branson. I would like to have it at the filter adapter.
Ken Burton
Jul 7, 2013, 11:00:56 PM7/7/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
You need to think about how and where you want to mount it. I suggest that you watch the temperature on the return line from the cooler. That is the oil that is going into the engine. A TEE will not necessarily do it. Unlike a pressure gauge, the sensor really needs to be in the actual flow of the oil.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Rob Mueller
Jul 8, 2013, 11:10:21 AM7/8/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Dan,
Having slept on it I was going to tell you the same thing that Ken did below. An air / liquid heat exchanger is much less efficient
than a liquid / liquid heat exchanger. With the radiator oil cooler it's a fair bet that whatever your H2O temp is that's what your
oil temp is. With the air / liquid heat exchanger your oil temp will range vary depending on ambient air temp, load on engine, if
it's raining, etc. You could even get in the situation that the oil was below what the engine designers wanted it to be.
I am in the process of installing an oil temp gage at the moment. I have a set of JR's lines on Double Trouble and am installing a
"T" in the line that GOES TO the oil cooler. I did that after consulting with Matt and he noted that if you install it in the line
that RETURNS TO the engine it could mask any problems you might have where the engine was heating the oil. He did note that from
time to time the reading could scare me. Dino oil ceases to be oil at 305 F, it is doubtful that the return oil will get that high
but at this point it time you don't know.
I am using a Parker Hannifin (1/2' x 1/2" x 1/4" pipe" "T" flareless fitting. I bought a cheap Harbor Freight temp gage (I don't
think they sell them any more) that has a sensor with 1/4" pipe male threads on it. The tip of the sensor IS in the flow path but
does NOT restrict flow.
Go buy a gage; try and find one with a 1/4" pipe threads on the sensor. When you do let me know and I'll dig up the part number for
the fitting from McMaster Carr for you.
Installing the "T" is much easier than drilling and tapping the Oil Cooler adapter; all you do is cut the line about 1" from where
it makes a slight jog after leaving the oil cooler adapter and then cut 1.87" inches from the long piece.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Having slept on it I was going to tell you the same thing that Ken did below. An air / liquid heat exchanger is much less efficient
than a liquid / liquid heat exchanger. With the radiator oil cooler it's a fair bet that whatever your H2O temp is that's what your
oil temp is. With the air / liquid heat exchanger your oil temp will range vary depending on ambient air temp, load on engine, if
it's raining, etc. You could even get in the situation that the oil was below what the engine designers wanted it to be.
I am in the process of installing an oil temp gage at the moment. I have a set of JR's lines on Double Trouble and am installing a
"T" in the line that GOES TO the oil cooler. I did that after consulting with Matt and he noted that if you install it in the line
that RETURNS TO the engine it could mask any problems you might have where the engine was heating the oil. He did note that from
time to time the reading could scare me. Dino oil ceases to be oil at 305 F, it is doubtful that the return oil will get that high
but at this point it time you don't know.
I am using a Parker Hannifin (1/2' x 1/2" x 1/4" pipe" "T" flareless fitting. I bought a cheap Harbor Freight temp gage (I don't
think they sell them any more) that has a sensor with 1/4" pipe male threads on it. The tip of the sensor IS in the flow path but
does NOT restrict flow.
Go buy a gage; try and find one with a 1/4" pipe threads on the sensor. When you do let me know and I'll dig up the part number for
the fitting from McMaster Carr for you.
Installing the "T" is much easier than drilling and tapping the Oil Cooler adapter; all you do is cut the line about 1" from where
it makes a slight jog after leaving the oil cooler adapter and then cut 1.87" inches from the long piece.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Burton
You need to think about how and where you want to mount it. I suggest that you watch the temperature on the return line from the
cooler. That is the oil that is going into the engine. A TEE will not necessarily do it. Unlike a pressure gauge, the sensor
really needs to be in the actual flow of the oil.
--
Ken
You need to think about how and where you want to mount it. I suggest that you watch the temperature on the return line from the
cooler. That is the oil that is going into the engine. A TEE will not necessarily do it. Unlike a pressure gauge, the sensor
really needs to be in the actual flow of the oil.
--
Ken
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 8, 2013, 12:16:45 PM7/8/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 07 July 2013 19:48
> Lets put one on at Branson. I would like to have it at the filter adapter.
> Dan
I think the best place to check the oil temperature is in the pan but it is also nice to know how much the oil cooler is lowering the temperature. The oil cooler in the aluminum radiator is pretty much near the upper area of the radiator so if you are working the engine hard and your water temperature is 200 plus with an open thermostat that cooler is in 170 to 190 degree water at that point a real good air over cooler would probably work better. If there is any contamination in your radiator cooler it would be in your best interest to leave it alone failed engines are hard on nerves and marriages. I added an external air over cooler to help out the radiator cooler as I didn't feel comfortable with 290 plus oil pan temperatures on mountain grades.
> Dan
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Richard
Jul 8, 2013, 5:42:20 PM7/8/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob & Dan,
My PO (once removed) installed brass T's between the hard and braided lines and put a temp sender in each. Kind of like this:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj90/reguzmans/LT1_LS7%20Conversion/DSC01536_zpsa5489b2c.jpg
There's a momentary toggle switch on an add-on gauge board by my right knee that controls the temperature gauge input on the dash. The default is the incoming oil temperature - by flicking the switch I can see the outgoing oil temp.
As Ken B advised, the temp senders project down into the center of the oil flow.
Richard
--
'77 Birchaven TZE...777
Rear bath, interior pretty much original,
Jasper 455, 3.50 final, Howell EFI w/EBL, Springfield, Thorley, 6 disks, Alcoas, currently installing a one ton front end
Neil Martin
Jul 8, 2013, 8:33:00 PM7/8/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob
Let me caution you about putting a T'ee fitting in the oil cooler adapter.
I had that set up for a while.
The oil just got hotter and hotter. I kept adding more and more coolers. Still it got hotter and hotter. Drove me crazy.
I switched from an electric to a mechanical gauge. Didn't change a thing.
I finally figured out that the t'ee on the adapter was under the headers and was reading the radiated heat.
Once I relocated the the sender my oil temp "problem" went away. As did most of the coolers.
I used a remote sensor adapter in the line away from the headers from these guys
http://www.racing-stuff.com/coolers.htm
Just what happened to me.
Neil
--
Neil
76 Eleganza
Los Angeles
Rob Mueller
Jul 8, 2013, 9:21:50 PM7/8/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Neil,
NOW you tell me! ;-) I just finished installing the "T" and the lines, sounds like might be making a heat shield for it! I'll
publish some photos of what / how I did it.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
NOW you tell me! ;-) I just finished installing the "T" and the lines, sounds like might be making a heat shield for it! I'll
publish some photos of what / how I did it.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Martin
Rob
Let me caution you about putting a T'ee fitting in the oil cooler adapter.
I had that set up for a while.
The oil just got hotter and hotter. I kept adding more and more coolers. Still it got hotter and hotter. Drove me crazy.
I switched from an electric to a mechanical gauge. Didn't change a thing.
I finally figured out that the t'ee on the adapter was under the headers and was reading the radiated heat.
Once I relocated the the sender my oil temp "problem" went away. As did most of the coolers.
I used a remote sensor adapter in the line away from the headers from these guys
http://www.racing-stuff.com/coolers.htm
Just what happened to me.
Neil
Rob
Let me caution you about putting a T'ee fitting in the oil cooler adapter.
I had that set up for a while.
The oil just got hotter and hotter. I kept adding more and more coolers. Still it got hotter and hotter. Drove me crazy.
I switched from an electric to a mechanical gauge. Didn't change a thing.
I finally figured out that the t'ee on the adapter was under the headers and was reading the radiated heat.
Once I relocated the the sender my oil temp "problem" went away. As did most of the coolers.
I used a remote sensor adapter in the line away from the headers from these guys
http://www.racing-stuff.com/coolers.htm
Just what happened to me.
Neil
Ken Henderson
Jul 9, 2013, 9:58:34 AM7/9/13
to gmclist
Also, remember that every tee+sensor, cooler, filter, etc., you add to the
external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi bypass opening
pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to
begin bypassing most of the time.
Ken H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Martin
>
external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi bypass opening
pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to
begin bypassing most of the time.
Ken H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Martin
>
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 9, 2013, 11:49:14 AM7/9/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 09 July 2013 06:58
> Also, remember that every tee+sensor, cooler, filter, etc., you add to the
> external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi bypass opening
> pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to
> begin bypassing most of the time.
>
> Ken H.
>
> I never thought about that even the factory cooler and piping would have an effect on the pressure drop. A slightly stiffer spring under the disc would probably be a good thing to compensate for this. A filter in bypass for an excessive amount of time would not be a good thing for bearing longevity.
> external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi bypass opening
> pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to
> begin bypassing most of the time.
>
> Ken H.
>
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Hal Kading
Jul 9, 2013, 3:06:48 PM7/9/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
GM specified replacing the two relief valves in the oil system for the later BBC 7.4 ltr and 8.2 ltr engines if they were to be fitted with external oil coolers and/or filters. The replacements were 30 psi so the external filter and oil cooler wouldn't be in bypass all the time. Not sure how this applies to the 403 and 455, but thought I'd mention it.
Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM
Rob Mueller
Jul 9, 2013, 3:21:10 PM7/9/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Ken,
Agreed
The ID of the Parker Hannifin run tee I used (1/2" tube to 1/2" tube with a 1/4" pipe branch) matches the ID of JR's stainless steel
tubes.
When I screwed the sensor into the Tee I only screwed it in until the very tip of the sensor barely entered the flow path through
the Tee.
I am confident that this installation will not affect the pressure drop from the oil cooler adapter outlet to its return any
significant amount.
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Also, remember that every tee+sensor, cooler, filter, etc., you add to the external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi
bypass opening pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to begin bypassing most of the time.
Ken H.
Agreed
The ID of the Parker Hannifin run tee I used (1/2" tube to 1/2" tube with a 1/4" pipe branch) matches the ID of JR's stainless steel
tubes.
When I screwed the sensor into the Tee I only screwed it in until the very tip of the sensor barely entered the flow path through
the Tee.
I am confident that this installation will not affect the pressure drop from the oil cooler adapter outlet to its return any
significant amount.
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Also, remember that every tee+sensor, cooler, filter, etc., you add to the external circuit contributes toward reaching that 5.3 psi
bypass opening pressure specified for the oil filter bypass valve. Not too difficult to begin bypassing most of the time.
Ken H.
Bill Wevers
Jul 10, 2013, 7:55:49 PM7/10/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
"As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get into the engine."
Rob Mueller
Jul 14, 2013, 9:44:51 AM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Roy,
I just ran across this and read it again and realized you raise a good point.
As far as I know the cars that Olds produced with the 455 never had an oil cooler in them. The oil cooler system is unique to the
GMC. I agree with you 100% that "the factory cooler and piping would have an effect on the pressure drop."
As noted in the GMC MM the bypass valve in the oil filter adapter opens at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. I would assume those numbers were
determined by testing to see what the max pressure drop would be through a "clean" oil filter on a cold day with the oil that was
specified. Those numbers would be above the "normal" pressure drop across the filter.
The questions I have are:
1) is the oil filter adapter in the GMC the same part number as the oil filter adapter in a car?
2) did the engineers at GMC run tests to verify that a pressure drop of 5.3 - 6.3 was high enough to keep the bypass from opening
under "normal" driving conditions?
Regards,
Rob M.
I just ran across this and read it again and realized you raise a good point.
As far as I know the cars that Olds produced with the 455 never had an oil cooler in them. The oil cooler system is unique to the
GMC. I agree with you 100% that "the factory cooler and piping would have an effect on the pressure drop."
As noted in the GMC MM the bypass valve in the oil filter adapter opens at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. I would assume those numbers were
determined by testing to see what the max pressure drop would be through a "clean" oil filter on a cold day with the oil that was
specified. Those numbers would be above the "normal" pressure drop across the filter.
The questions I have are:
1) is the oil filter adapter in the GMC the same part number as the oil filter adapter in a car?
2) did the engineers at GMC run tests to verify that a pressure drop of 5.3 - 6.3 was high enough to keep the bypass from opening
under "normal" driving conditions?
Regards,
Rob M.
John R. Lebetski
Jul 14, 2013, 10:35:13 AM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
I see no bypass valve in the oil cooler adaptor as pictured.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
Rob Mueller
Jul 14, 2013, 11:02:53 AM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
John,
There are three parts connected to the passenger side of the engine block that the oil passes through:
1) oil filter adapter - it bolts to the side of the engine block
2) oil cooler adapter - it attaches to the oil filter adapter with a large threaded adapter in the middle
3) oil filter
The bypass valve is in 1) oil filter adapter; there is no bypass in the oil cooler adapter and if I said there was in some email I
goofed!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of John R. Lebetski
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:35 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Olds 455 Engine Oil Flow Path
There are three parts connected to the passenger side of the engine block that the oil passes through:
1) oil filter adapter - it bolts to the side of the engine block
2) oil cooler adapter - it attaches to the oil filter adapter with a large threaded adapter in the middle
3) oil filter
The bypass valve is in 1) oil filter adapter; there is no bypass in the oil cooler adapter and if I said there was in some email I
goofed!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of John R. Lebetski
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:35 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Olds 455 Engine Oil Flow Path
Dan Gregg
Jul 14, 2013, 1:51:38 PM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
bwevers wrote on Wed, 10 July 2013 18:55
> "As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get into the engine."
>
>
> Found this graphic may be useful to illustrate Rob's point:
I like this diagram. Thanks for posting it. You all have convinced me that crud in radiator cooler can not get into engine. So, when rinsing, which hole do we stick hose in to rinse, top or bottom? I have plugs in both holes.
>
>
> Found this graphic may be useful to illustrate Rob's point:
Ken Burton
Jul 14, 2013, 3:28:18 PM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 14 July 2013 12:51
> bwevers wrote on Wed, 10 July 2013 18:55
> > "As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get into the engine."
> >
> >
> > Found this graphic may be useful to illustrate Rob's point:
>
> I like this diagram. Thanks for posting it. You all have convinced me that crud in radiator cooler can not get into engine. So, when rinsing, which hole do we stick hose in to rinse, top or bottom? I have plugs in both holes.
> Dan
Actually you want to go both ways. When you are finished. Blow the cooler out with air to remove ALL solvent. On an AC systems when I do that I usually run air through in both directions switching about every 5 minutes in direction for a total of about 20 minutes.
> > "As long as people use the correct oil filter with no internal bypass, any crap that is in the radiator oil cooler isn't going to get into the engine."
> >
> >
> > Found this graphic may be useful to illustrate Rob's point:
>
> I like this diagram. Thanks for posting it. You all have convinced me that crud in radiator cooler can not get into engine. So, when rinsing, which hole do we stick hose in to rinse, top or bottom? I have plugs in both holes.
> Dan
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Rob Mueller
Jul 14, 2013, 7:52:12 PM7/14/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
DRUM ROLL - RATTATTTATTTATT - BUGLES BLAST - TA DA TA DA TA DA!!! ;-)
Google "How to clean an oil cooler."
I did and a bunch of info popped up.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
Google "How to clean an oil cooler."
I did and a bunch of info popped up.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Gregg
I like this diagram. Thanks for posting it. You all have convinced me that crud in radiator cooler can not get into engine. So, when
rinsing, which hole do we stick hose in to rinse, top or bottom? I have plugs in both holes.
Dan
I like this diagram. Thanks for posting it. You all have convinced me that crud in radiator cooler can not get into engine. So, when
rinsing, which hole do we stick hose in to rinse, top or bottom? I have plugs in both holes.
Dan
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 15, 2013, 9:16:56 PM7/15/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
[quote title=Robert Mueller wrote on Sun, 14 July 2013 06:44]Roy,
I just ran across this and read it again and realized you raise a good point.
As far as I know the cars that Olds produced with the 455 never had an oil cooler in them. The oil cooler system is unique to the
GMC. I agree with you 100% that "the factory cooler and piping would have an effect on the pressure drop."
As noted in the GMC MM the bypass valve in the oil filter adapter opens at 5.3 to 6.3 psi. I would assume those numbers were
determined by testing to see what the max pressure drop would be through a "clean" oil filter on a cold day with the oil that was
specified. Those numbers would be above the "normal" pressure drop across the filter.
The questions I have are:
1) is the oil filter adapter in the GMC the same part number as the oil filter adapter in a car?
2) did the engineers at GMC run tests to verify that a pressure drop of 5.3 - 6.3 was high enough to keep the bypass from opening
under "normal" driving conditions?
Regards,
Rob M.
I can certainly agree with you on this point if the associated piping, cooler and any added lines and coolers cause the lowly 4-6 lb relief to release more frequently then on a rare occasion the spring tension under the disk would need to be increased. I just can't agree that a cooler or oil lines with metal filings does not come with a risk of entering into the engine bearings. No one seems to agree with me but I would not feel comfortable trusting that the filings couldn't get past the filter even with the bypass located at the cooler adapter. Goggle how to clean an oil cooler after an engine failure. Most of those folks say replace the cooler at all cost and most would replace the lines also. Maybe Dan will hook his back up and if his engine survives I will relent.
Rob Mueller
Jul 15, 2013, 11:06:16 PM7/15/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Roy,
I got an answer to number 1 OFF NET:
The Toronado and GMC have the bypass valve in the oil filter adapter that bolts to the side of the block. The RWD vehicles do not
have the same oil filter adapter; their oil filter adapter does not have the bypass and they use oil filters with bypasses in them.
As far as number 2 goes it seems to me that testing would have been done but that's an assumption!
As far as your reticence to trust the oil filter I'll respond with a couple of questions:
1) Why do you trust the oil filter to remove the particulate contamination as you drive your GMC normally, but not when an engine
blows up?
2) A Wix filter remove particles 19 microns and above it does not have a bypass in it, how can particles greater than 19 microns get
through the element.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of r...@gmcnet.org
I got an answer to number 1 OFF NET:
The Toronado and GMC have the bypass valve in the oil filter adapter that bolts to the side of the block. The RWD vehicles do not
have the same oil filter adapter; their oil filter adapter does not have the bypass and they use oil filters with bypasses in them.
As far as number 2 goes it seems to me that testing would have been done but that's an assumption!
As far as your reticence to trust the oil filter I'll respond with a couple of questions:
1) Why do you trust the oil filter to remove the particulate contamination as you drive your GMC normally, but not when an engine
blows up?
2) A Wix filter remove particles 19 microns and above it does not have a bypass in it, how can particles greater than 19 microns get
through the element.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of r...@gmcnet.org
r...@gmcnet.org
Jul 16, 2013, 11:07:32 AM7/16/13
to gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Rob. The information you received that rear Wheel drive Olds engines don't have similar bypass valves is not correct. My spare 455 engine came out of a1976 Vista Cruiser and it has the same valve as then motor home. As far as I know all 455 engines take the same oil filter. My concern is not filter quality only what happens when the valve opens at any rate we agree on most things.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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