[GMCnet] Royale Center Kitchen

[Ron Murray]

Was the GMC Royale Center Kitchen, interior by Coachmen, only built in
1978? Or was some built in 1977, that have 455's? How many center kitchen's
were built in total?

Ron
77eleganza455
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[Todd Sullivan]

I have a 77 royale and it is a center kitchen

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Ron Murray]

Is it by chance a 455?

Ron

[Don Adams]

sgltrac wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 21:33

> I have a 77 royale and it is a center kitchen

> Sully, 77 royale, Seattle



Sully, 403 or 455 ?
--
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba

[Dennis Sexton]

Ron Murray wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 21:13

> Was the GMC Royale Center Kitchen, interior by Coachmen, only built in
> 1978? Or was some built in 1977, that have 455's? How many center kitchen's
> were built in total?
>
> Ron
> 77eleganza455
> _______________________________________________

Also built in 1976...and with 455

http://bdub.net/publications/1976%20Royale%202/76royal22.htm

Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[Dennis Sexton]

Dennis S wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 21:52

> Ron Murray wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 21:13
> > Was the GMC Royale Center Kitchen, interior by Coachmen, only built in
> > 1978? Or was some built in 1977, that have 455's? How many center kitchen's
> > were built in total?
> >
> > Ron
> > 77eleganza455
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Also built in 1976...and with 455
>
> http://bdub.net/publications/1976%20Royale%202/76royal22.htm
>
> Dennis

It occurs to me "center kitchn" may not mean the same to all of use. You may be referring to the kitchen behind the entry door.

[Ron Murray]

The Royale center kitchen I am referring to, has the kitchen located on the
curb side of the coach. The kitchen is located to the rear of the entry
door. I'm not sure but I think it's the only '73 to '78 GMC MH with the
kitchen on the curb side of the coach, and I have only found it in
1978 Royale's by Coachman. Therefore they are only 403's and no 455's?
If this is true, will a rebuilt 455 and transmission bolt up the same and
replace the 403 without major modifications?

Ron
77eleganza455
Seattle

[Todd Sullivan]

455

Sorry for the late reply but it apparently is now moot :). The kitchen in mine looks like a 70s brochure that I have seen when I google image gmc motorhome. Kitchen counter from the back of the drivers seat to the refrigerator which is directly opposite the entry door.

Sully
77 royale
06 e55 amg

Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Robert Mueller]

Ron,

The 23' Avion has the galley on the passenger side like the Royale:

http://www.bdub.net/publications/Avion2/avion-int-231.htm

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Murray

The Royale center kitchen I am referring to, has the kitchen located on the
curb side of the coach. The kitchen is located to the rear of the entry
door. I'm not sure but I think it's the only '73 to '78 GMC MH with the
kitchen on the curb side of the coach, and I have only found it in
1978 Royale's by Coachman. Therefore they are only 403's and no 455's?
If this is true, will a rebuilt 455 and transmission bolt up the same and
replace the 403 without major modifications?

Ron
77eleganza455
Seattle

[John Sharpe]

Quote:
> ...will a rebuilt 455 and transmission bolt up the same and
> > replace the 403 without major modifications?....


There is nothing unique about the TH425 transmissions. They bolt up to the 403 and 455. The 455 can be installed where a 403 was. The motor mount is the same. However, the accessory brackets won't fit and I would not advise using the 403's right hand exhaust manifold on a 455.
--
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'78 Eleganza TBI
'89 Spectrum 2000 MPI V-10
'40 Ford Deluxe TBI
mailto:johna...@gmail.com

[Mike Miller]

A couple of points:

1. All but one Royale layout had the kitchen behind the drivers seat. None of these was called a "center kitchen."

2. All of the published Royale layouts put the refer across from the entrance door.

3. The true center kitchen has the kitchen just aft of the entrance door... over the curb side rear wheel well. (See link below at the bottom of the page.)

4. Coachman was known to put out one-off models with "normal furnishings" rearranged. So it is possible that almost any layout could show up from any year. BUT... the only year that the published brochures list a center kitchen (Ck layout) is the 1978 brochure: <http://www.bdub.net/publications/1978_GMC_by_Coachman/1978_GMC_Coachman7.htm>

5. As all Ck layout were 1978 (supposedly), they all would have left the factory with 403's. It is possible that a 455 was swapped in. I understand that in late 1977 and 1978, some dealers actually ordered 455's just to make the swap for customers. Removing brand new 403s. (Yes, they just bolt in... with the correct brackets and stuff.) This also means that some came with EL and some with EL2.

6. I also think the Ck was the only _26 foot_ GMC with the kitchen on the curb side. MOST 23 foot coaches also had the kitchen on the curb side. Seems (IIRC) for 23 foot coaches, the side baths had curb side kitchens, rear bath had street side kitchens.

sgltrac wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 21:34
> ... The kitchen in mine looks like a 70s brochure that I have seen when I google image gmc motorhome. Kitchen counter from the back of the drivers seat to the refrigerator which is directly opposite the entry door.

>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Ron Murray <77eleg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Royale center kitchen I am referring to, has the kitchen located on the
> > curb side of the coach. The kitchen is located to the rear of the entry
> > door. I'm not sure but I think it's the only '73 to '78 GMC MH with the
> > kitchen on the curb side of the coach, and I have only found it in
> > 1978 Royale's by Coachman. Therefore they are only 403's and no 455's?
> > If this is true, will a rebuilt 455 and transmission bolt up the same and
> > replace the 403 without major modifications?

--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com

[Mark]

This all begs the question - why the interest in a motor swap? I can say with absolute certainty that a 403 will move a '78 Royale Center Kitchen along very nicely.
--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

[Mike Miller]

habbyguy wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 23:08

> This all begs the question - why the interest in a motor swap? I can say with absolute certainty that a 403 will move a '78 Royale Center Kitchen along very nicely.

It was from a question by Ron Murray. at this was his first post, I suspect he either has just purchased or is thinking about purchasing a 1978 Ck Royale. Like many, he has questions about the "smaller" motor.

OBTW: welcome aboard Ron! ... Let us know if your are a want-to-be or an owner. You location would also be nice.

--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com

[Emery Stora]

Emery

On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Mike Miller <m00...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 5. As all Ck layout were 1978 (supposedly), they all would have left the factory with 403's. It is possible that a 455 was swapped in. I understand that in late 1977 and 1978, some dealers actually ordered 455's just to make the swap for customers. Removing brand new 403s. (Yes, they just bolt in... with the correct brackets and stuff.) This also means that some came with EL and some with EL2.
>
>

I recall hearing years ago that some dealers, when told of the demise of the 455 engine, we're able to put orders in for 1978 production with factory installed 455s. Apparently GM held some engines in inventory for their orders. This supposedly accounts for the 1978 coaches with the 455 engine.

I don't know if this is rumor or fact but I have seen several 1978s with 455 engines which were not swapped out.

Emery Stora

[Ray Erspamer]

Our center kitchen is a 78 with a 403.

Ray


Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/




________________________________
From: Todd Sullivan <sgl...@gmail.com>
To: "gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Cc: "gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wed, January 30, 2013 9:33:59 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Royale Center Kitchen

[Carl Stouffer]

Ron,

A little off topic, but...It looks like you have found your GMC (sig line says "77 Eleganza455"). Congratulations! Just a note to let you know the Kingsley you were considering, in Tucson, had been sold after being inspected and found to be in very good condition with only a few minor issues. The new owner will be picking it up today. I hope to meet him.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Mark]

Mike Miller wrote on Thu, 31 January 2013 03:46

> habbyguy wrote on Wed, 30 January 2013 23:08
> > This all begs the question - why the interest in a motor swap? I can say with absolute certainty that a 403 will move a '78 Royale Center Kitchen along very nicely.
>
>
> It was from a question by Ron Murray. at this was his first post, I suspect he either has just purchased or is thinking about purchasing a 1978 Ck Royale. Like many, he has questions about the "smaller" motor.

That was my assumption, too. I remember when I first started looking at GMCs, I was concerned about the horrific loss of power I'd have to endure by buying a late '77 or '78 model with their "tiny" little 403ci motors. Then I did the research and found that there's a whopping 12 horsepower difference between the two, and some other ancillary benefits to the 403. I'll try not to start a 455 vs. 403 war, but suffice it to say that there's really no reason at all to be concerned about having the 403 in your coach. I have PLENTY of power with my "mouse motor", and wouldn't swap it for a 455 if I could do it by snapping my fingers.

--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

[Ray Erspamer]

We have the 403 with the 3:70 final drive. We tow a cargo trailer with a Harley
plus a bunch of other crap in it with a total weight of approx. 3,000 lbs
including the trailer. Our coach performs fantastic. Plenty of get up and go,
I have to pay attention to keep my top speed down to 70. I'm very happy with
this package.

There are pro's and con's for both engines, bottom line is that both are good
and will do the job well. Whichever one you have, use it and enjoy it.

Oh, and with either one, you'll probably get 8 -10 MPG !! LOL

Ray


Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/




________________________________

From: Mark <ma...@habcycles.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, January 31, 2013 10:51:18 AM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Royale Center Kitchen

[Ron Murray]

Ray, & all
Thanks,
I'm curious what is the tac and vacuum readings at 60 mph and 70 mph w/ the
3:70 and how different w/ 3:07? The engine runs at higher rpm's, doesn't it
w/ the 3:70 gear ratio? Is it better to run at 55 mph, 60 mph, 65 mph, or
70 mph?
Lastly why do both the 403 and 455, need to be rebuilt at approximately
100k?
Do any make 200k?
And who rebuilds the best GMC 455 and 403?
How do I make a rebuilt preform well and last for 200k miles?

Ron

[Mark]

Ron Murray wrote on Thu, 31 January 2013 19:51

> Ray, & all
> Thanks,
> I'm curious what is the tac and vacuum readings at 60 mph and 70 mph w/ the
> 3:70 and how different w/ 3:07? The engine runs at higher rpm's, doesn't it
> w/ the 3:70 gear ratio? Is it better to run at 55 mph, 60 mph, 65 mph, or
> 70 mph?
> Lastly why do both the 403 and 455, need to be rebuilt at approximately
> 100k?
> Do any make 200k?
> And who rebuilds the best GMC 455 and 403?
> How do I make a rebuilt preform well and last for 200k miles?

The vacuum depends on the altitude, the terrain, and the weight (including what you're towing). I've seen my 403 pulling anywhere from 4 to 18 inches between 60 and 70mph, depending on the altitude.

Yes, higher numerical ratios in the "rear end" mean the engine turns faster. I have 3.42 gearing.

It's better to go slower for gas mileage and wear and tear on the engine (see a related thread that's currently going on now on the difference in gas mileage at various speeds).

The motor in ANY 12,000 pound vehicle is going to be stressed "just driving along", and will likely need to be gone over at around 100,000 miles (though some obviously do go farther between rebuilds). I haven't had enough experience to say who does the best rebuilds, though I know my recent (5,000 miles ago) rebuild at MGM GMC - done by the PO - has been done right, apparently. I've heard rumors that the 403s generally don't normally require a "full rebuild", but again, I haven't had mine long enough to find out.

I doubt many of the motors will be driven 200,000 miles before needing work, though it is probably possible with careful maintenance, frequent high-quality oil changes, and a very carefully placed right foot (maybe a 55mph max?).

[Jim Kanomata]

Mark,
I tend to differ with you on your statement of higher gear giving better
mileage.
There will be times that can be true, but in my 33 years of owning GMC and
selling final gears, we have pretty much proven that 3.70 does not decrease
mileage.
We have sold more 3,70 than the 3,55 and when someone complains about
milage, it is because of a jammed distributor or a faulty carb.
Look at the chart on our site and it will show that the torque will fall in
in the range you most will drive.
The engine vacuum will rise and the carb will lean down and the distributor
willl advance.
Hate to tell people they are wrong, but I'm sure others will back me on
this .

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Howard]

Jim k's 3:70 works very well for us.
The secret?
Keep your right foot out of it.
Some thing I always do not do.
Susie is better at that.

All is well with my Lord
Howard

[Ray Erspamer]

I can verify Jim's comments. My mileage IMPROVED after I put in my 3:70 final
drive. Average MPG with my 3:42 final drive was 8.9, average to date with my
3:70 has been 9.4.

I keep lunatic records of all of this crap........I'm a spread sheet-a-holic !

Ray


Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-...@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/




________________________________

From: Jim Kanomata <jimka...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 12:50:34 AM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Royale Center Kitchen

[Mark]

jimk wrote on Thu, 31 January 2013 23:50
> Mark,
> I tend to differ with you on your statement of higher gear giving better mileage.<snip>

> Hate to tell people they are wrong, but I'm sure others will back me on this .

Jim, I'm not sure where you got the idea I was advocating lower engine speed as producing better gas mileage... I never said anything of the kind (and know better, at least when we're discussing motorhomes). I can only guess you misread my comment that going slower (coach speed, not engine speed) produces better mileage.

[Kingsley Coach]

Ron

About that 100,000 rebuild....
I rebuilt my own engine at approx 97,000?? miles because of a piston slap.
It is now showing (1)94,000 and the oil pressure is a little low. By the
time I get home it will be 97,000 again....so I agree it's a 100,000
between rebuilds.

It's not rocket science and you can do it yourself if you are careful and
attentive to detail. I spent 30 years teaching English, and have zero
formal mechanical training. Mechanical stuff has always been an interest,
not a job....

Some thoughts on a sunny morning here in New Mexico...

Mike from NS , now in NM ....

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

[rally...@juno.com]

More like 140 thousand for my 403. 142K for the original, about 148K for
the rebuild. I'd probably still be running the rebuild, but the
something went titters and bent #7 pushrods, and buggered up the cam.

RonC
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:30:42 -0400 Kingsley Coach <kings...@gmail.com>
writes:

Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN