[GMCnet] Oil galley plug

[Harold]

How important is it that there be a .03 or .04 hole drilled in the aft oil galley plug for extra dizzy gear oiling like Joe Mondello insisted? Reason I'm asking is the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody
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[Robert Mueller]

Harold,

This is going to be interesting as anyone that says it isn't necessary will basically be stating that they know more than Joe (Mr.
Olds) did! ;-)

Yeah, I know I'm a troublemaker!

Regards,
Rob M.

[James Hupy]

Yes.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

[Bill Dolinsky]

I think there is a substantial amount of oil floating around if you dont restrict the feeds off the mains to the rockers. IMO it turned out to be a problem once he restricted oil to the top so fixed it by spraying oil on or near the distributor drive gear
--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Sean Kidd]

Has anyone ever experienced a dizzy gear failure?
--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms,
Fluorescent Mineral Capital of the World, New Jersey

[James Hupy]

The problem arises when mis matched materials are used in construction of
camshaft gears and distributor gears. Olds knew that. That is why on
agricultural, marine, and motor home applications the drilled plug is used.
The one behind the timing gear is also drilled. But, hey, will the engine
run without the hole in the plug? Yes, but, !!!

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

[James Hupy]

Yes I have. More than once.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

[jhb1]

Yes do not run the engine without the hole. I picked up a 455 a few years ago as a fresh rebuild with scrap cam 40 minutes of running with no hole in the plug. This engine had all the right parts but was probably built by a Chevy guy so ended up saving a bundle on machine work.
pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:05

> How important is it that there be a .03 or .04 hole drilled in the aft oil galley plug for extra dizzy gear oiling like Joe Mondello insisted? Reason I'm asking is the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody

--
John H. Bell
77 Royale
Montreal Qc.

[Bill Dolinsky]

So did olds deliver engines from the factory with the drilled plugs? My impression was they pumped to much oil to the top at high rpms and emptied the oil pan so he restricted oil to the top. I have read his articles and while I agree with limiting oil to the top taking more away from the mains with a controlled leak for a distributor gear and timing chain, we'll if I'd did that I would want the restrictors in the main journals. But then never ran an olds, nothing but bbc and sbc and import na and turbo.

--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Bill Dolinsky]

So did olds deliver engines from the factory with the drilled plugs? My impression was they pumped to much oil to the top at high rpms and emptied the oil pan so he restricted oil to the top. I have read his articles and while I agree with limiting oil to the top taking more away from the mains with a controlled leak for a distributor gear and timing chain, we'll if I'd did that I would want the restrictors in the main journals. But then never ran an olds, nothing but bbc and sbc and import na and turbo. Oh yeah, dodge and fords too. Just no experience Buick, olds, caddy except for repair.

--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Chris Geils]

pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 18:05

> the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody

It is a simple task since you have not installed the engine yet. Might as well do it as it won't hurt, as long as you are careful with chips, etc. I have old Pontiac V8s and a similar mod is highly recommended for them as well. It is more critical if you run dissimilar metal gears, or put higher loads on the gears (in Pontiacs a higher pressure oil pump, which is driven by the distributor shaft, is a common mod).


--
Chris Geils - twin cities
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; Headers, Progressive Dynamics 9040 battery charger, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, 43k mi

[James Hupy]

Bill, Yes Olds did. The problem that Joe dealt with was one of our own
creation. When the Olds is fitted with a high volume oil pump, certain high
rpm operations will deplete the supply of oil in the STOCK OIL PAN. That
led to restrictors in the oil galleries as an attempt to reduce the flow
rate and as a secondary benefit?, an increase in pressure. Jury is still
out on that as a benefit. It is kind of a yes-but deal. I question the
value in a motor home application. Absolutely bone stock 455 and 403 Olds,
in heavy vehicle operation, with proper oil change intervals and tune ups,
easily last well over 100,000 miles. A lot longer in lighter vehicles. Do
we really NEED high volume oil pumps? I lean towards the not really, but,
group of opinions. But, gee let's re gear this sucker, put some headers on
it, stack on different intakes and camshafts, add on fuel injection, etc.
and the equation changes quite a bit. You rev these suckers up (like Joe
Mondello) or you and me in, for example, a jet boat or street rod? Any
weak spots in an engine design will quickly surface. Then we have a
tendency to attempt to "bullet proof" an engine so it will live in
circumstances of our own creation. That is some of what Joe did. Your
opinions might vary.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

[John Heslinga]

Our Highly respected engine builders of the GMC Olds say to ensure the hole is in rear plug. (and to ensure the front hole is in the right place)

Here is what it looks like during a recent priming procedure I did. Link:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p52584-oil-stream-from-oil-galley-plug-during-priming.html

Photo


And the front hole looks like this. Link:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p52587-hole-in-front-oil-galley-plug.html

Photo
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6113/100_1674.JPG

Best Regards
--
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
Retirement Projects Galore
Edmonton, Alberta

[Bill Dolinsky]

jhb1 wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:41

> Yes do not run the engine without the hole. I picked up a 455 a few years ago as a fresh rebuild with scrap cam 40 minutes of running with no hole in the plug. This engine had all the right parts but was probably built by a Chevy guy so ended up saving a bundle on machine work.
> pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:05
> > How important is it that there be a .03 or .04 hole drilled in the aft oil galley plug for extra dizzy gear oiling like Joe Mondello insisted? Reason I'm asking is the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody

Flat tapper cam break in is a crap shoot now without zinc and knowledge about proper cam break in procedures. I know many builders that won't put an engine together unless it has a roller cam. I don't think cam lobes going flat had anything to do with a oil plug not squirting at a distributor drive gear.

--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Bill Dolinsky]

James Hupy wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 22:33

> Bill, Yes Olds did. The problem that Joe dealt with was one of our own
> creation. When the Olds is fitted with a high volume oil pump, certain high
> rpm operations will deplete the supply of oil in the STOCK OIL PAN. That
> led to restrictors in the oil galleries as an attempt to reduce the flow
> rate and as a secondary benefit?, an increase in pressure. Jury is still
> out on that as a benefit. It is kind of a yes-but deal. I question the
> value in a motor home application. Absolutely bone stock 455 and 403 Olds,
> in heavy vehicle operation, with proper oil change intervals and tune ups,
> easily last well over 100,000 miles. A lot longer in lighter vehicles. Do
> we really NEED high volume oil pumps? I lean towards the not really, but,
> group of opinions. But, gee let's re gear this sucker, put some headers on
> it, stack on different intakes and camshafts, add on fuel injection, etc.
> and the equation changes quite a bit. You rev these suckers up (like Joe
> Mondello) or you and me in, for example, a jet boat or street rod? Any
> weak spots in an engine design will quickly surface. Then we have a
> tendency to attempt to "bullet proof" an engine so it will live in
> circumstances of our own creation. That is some of what Joe did. Your
> opinions might vary.
> Jim Hupy
>

> No, I agree with you. When I'm building an engine that I have not had experience with I probably spend more hours researching than building. Same thing I believe quite often a high volume oil pump on a new engine is unnecessary. I like oil at my mains, I like a decent amount of oil flowing over my valve springs and stems for cooling. The factory engine didn't seem to have a problem till the guys wound them to 6000 rpm when there was no more oil in the pan and they figured out that to much oil was pumped up top and drain back to the pan wasn't good enough. That tells me a stock engine should have enough oil slopping down to lube a distributor drive gear. I guess I'll find out, I'll be pulling the intake at least to plug the crossover. Like I say over the last 35 years I don't remember seeing that many olds, remember one that was a total sludge machine but I don't think he changed the oil for 70000 miles, lifters were mushroomed, cam ok.... Last 25 has been doing airline grou
nd equipment so like I say not many olds.

[Jim Bounds]

Brother, after building in to 200's of these Olds motors, it's been a struggle to pick the performance stuff that fits our needs.  I use an renound Olds builder Drew Koba to assemble our motors, he harps hard about this.  To be honest though, there are so many performance things these tech gurus do that mean absolutely nothing to our motors.  In a very real way, it is more difficult to create torque at low RPM that revving up the motor and doing it there.  HP means less while low RPM torque is king.  The "gliptol" they paint the inside of the motor with is useless for our motors.  We are never going to run our oil pans out of oil running under 3000 RPM on a constant basis.  Revving up to 7K to get a hole shot may do that but who is doing that!  The oil hole again is for those high rev situations to pee a little oil on the dist gear, it's not really a problem at 3000 RPM.  We do not do that hole on ours.  Oil restrictors in the cam galley to
keep oil on the crank is also not really a deal breaker, we're not starving the oiling system!  We don't use restrictors anymore, we just cut a smaller hole in the cam bearings.A performance builder wants compression to get hp and torque, a real motor designed for low RPM torque wants low compression so you won't melt your charge card on fuel, we do it with our roller cam profile.  This is backwards from what a performance Olds or Chevy guy wants to do.  I want good vacuum at idle, not sucking so low at idle you can't use your brakes!  I want all new hardened exh. seats to combat the new ethanol fuel making exh. gasses hotter.  I want an adjustible valve train because of redecked blocks and heads, new valve seats and all that.  God knows where the geometry is on these old war horses today.  I do not do the rubber Ford rear main seal-- if it goes out it's all on me!  If you cherish and run your coach, the rope seal conditions and works great.  I
do use a hi volume oil pump but also a big diameter pick up tube and screen filter.  No need to have a HV pump if you don;t give it oil volume input. 
 
See, there is so much more than just picking this or that and letting a performance guy tell you what to do.  If you are cruising above 3000 RPM in a 12,000 pound projectile, brother you are driving way too fast.  Build the motor for the application we need, it will be a motor that can handle it, cut 1 corner and you are screwed.  Low RPM, grunt torque is a killer of motors...
 
Jim Bounds
------------------------

[Les Burt]

Bill,
I saw John's cam after he pulled it from his rebuilt engine. It was the dizzy gear that was trashed. The rest of the cam was perfect. The only reason we could think of for the gear failure was a HV oil pump and the lack of the galley plug hole.
John replaced the cam with JimBs first flat tappet cam design and a drilled galley plug. He also installed a new OEM dizzy gear. That same engine has now been running well in his coach for over 50,000 miles, so I would have to assume that drilling the oil galley plug prevented any further issues.

It is obvious that each different combination of parts will provide different results. That is evidenced by the success and failure stories we read here. Drilling the galley plugs shouldn't cause any negative effects, but it might prevent some. YMMV ;)

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[Harold]

Case solved and closed. Thanks to all for the input. Turns out I missed a paragraph when reading up on engine work in my 1975-1976 GMC maintenance manual. On page 6A-58 it clearly defines that the hole should be there and JM was right on when he said, "if it's a 3/8 pipe plug then you will burn up the cam and burn up the distributor gear....guaranteed!" The video below is about to go off the free list, so view it and save it b4 the mad' men take it.
http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2009-06/building-an-olds-455

I pulled the cup plug, took out the threaded plug, and drilled a .04" hole, cleaned the oil galley bore, and reassembled it. One less worry. Now just praying the builder got the cam bearing oil hole aligned among other things. Shoulda built it myself I guess. Next time. Aloha, Woody.

[Robert Mueller]

Woody,

Great find!

I tried to buy a copy but got an error message; I've contacted Horse Power and asked how I can buy a copy.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I stumbled on to this poking around the Mondello website:

http://www.mondello.com/page22.php

GREAT info from Joe!

He was, as they say Downunder, Magic!

[Bill Dolinsky]

Coming from no olds experience I am just thinking there should be enough oil sloshing around if the engine runs out of oil at 6000 rpm. However if you have a surplus volume yes I wouldn't have a problem drilling a plug to oil a distributor gear. It just like I picked up ac couple continental O-470 aircraft engines for my next airboat. Big oil pump, these things can run with .008 main clearance so I drilled the case for piston squirters to reduce potential for detonation. New bearings went in and Newer cases have them I found out. Second engine I bored the case for 520 jugs and isn't together yet but prioritys change. I don't see IMO a burning issue if you don't drill it, I don't see a problem at all if you do drill the plug.

--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Emery Stora]

The factory drilled the plug. It is shown in the GMC Maintenance Manual.

Dick Paterson has said in his engine rebuilding seminars that some people use the wrong plug, one without a hole, and the distributor gear won't get enough oil. It has nothing to do with the RPM of the engine or the volume of the oil pump.

Emery Stora

[Bill Dolinsky]

We'll I'm not going to pull my engine out to see If it's drilled or not.. L

--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169

[Jim Bounds]

Original motors we have opened up do not have this hole.  This is why after much thought about it we are not doing it.  I feel it's a hi performance option those hi rev boyd so-- that's not for us.  I want a rock solid hunk of metal that runs on regular gas, can accept any oil and produces it's best performance under 3000rpm.  No chrome, original valve covers, and all other visible parts.  Needs to fire every time and have Bubba & Scooter be able to work on it.  With or without the hole makes little difference, if GM felt it needed to be there, they would have done it even on Chevys!
 
Jim Bounds
-------------------

[Robert Mueller]

Jim,

Ref: Maintenance Manual X-7525 / Section 6A / Page 6A/58 CAMSHAFT BEARINGS / Figure 65 / Camshaft and Oil Gallery Plugs

The left hand rear oil gallery plug is not shown. It is a threaded plug in the end of the left gallery just rearward of the
distributor. A small hole is provided in the plug for distributor lubrication. The cup plug shown provides access to the threaded
plug.

Ref: Parts book 78Z / Section 8 Engine / Page 8-2 CYLINDER BLOCK, CRANKSHAFT, OIL PAN

Page 8-4 / Key 31 - Qty - 1 / P/N - 588927 / Description - PLUG, camshaft rear bearing

Page 8-4 / Key 32 / Qty - 2 / P/N - None listed / Description - PLUG-oil passage (RH & LH)

Observations / Comments:

The MM notes; "A small hole is provided in the plug for distributor lubrication." Yet the PB does not provide a part number for
either of the plugs which IIRC means "local purchase." That is strange since they MM does not provide the diameter of that hole.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia

AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

PS - I checked MM X-7625 and found NADA, however, in MM X-7725 on page 6A-80 the same info noted in X-7725 is provided.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bounds

Original motors we have opened up do not have this hole.  This is why after much thought about it we are not doing it.  I feel it's
a hi performance option those hi rev boyd so-- that's not for us.  I want a rock solid hunk of metal that runs on regular gas, can
accept any oil and produces it's best performance under 3000rpm.  No chrome, original valve covers, and all other visible parts. 
Needs to fire every time and have Bubba & Scooter be able to work on it.  With or without the hole makes little difference, if GM
felt it needed to be there, they would have done it even on Chevys!
 
Jim

[Johnny Bridges]

Yes, in a 300 CID Furd 6.  Oil pump froze and took the drive gear (and the quill shaft) out.  Probably saved the rest of the engine.
 
--johnny

 

From: Sean Kidd <fiat...@yahoo.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug

[Johnny Bridges]

Bill, aren't the TSIO series engines alreadty fitted with oil spray to the pistons?    We sold a bunch of airboat engines into the Everglades (All stamped NOT AIRWORTHY) when the welders were learning how.   GSO-490 Lycs if memory serves.  
 
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris\

 

From: Bill Dolinsky <Wildbi...@yahoo.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug

[Matt Colie]

Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 28 January 2014 09:40

> Bill, aren't the TSIO series engines alreadty fitted with oil spray to the pistons?    We sold a bunch of airboat engines into the Everglades (All stamped NOT AIRWORTHY) when the welders were learning how.   GSO-490 Lycs if memory serves.  
>  
> --johnny

> From: Bill Dolinsky

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug
>
> Coming from no olds experience I am just  thinking there should be enough oil sloshing around if the engine runs out of oil at 6000 rpm. However if you have a surplus volume yes I wouldn't have a problem drilling a plug to oil a distributor gear. It just like I picked up ac couple continental O-470 aircraft engines for my next airboat. Big oil pump, these things can run with .008 main clearance so I drilled the case for piston squirters to reduce potential for detonation. New bearings went in and Newer cases have them I found out. Second engine I bored the case for 520 jugs and isn't together yet but prioritys change. I don't see IMO  a burning issue if you don't drill it, I don't see a problem at all if you do drill the plug.
> --
> Bill Dolinsky

Hey Guys,

Lots of heavy duty diesels have piston coolers, and so do all of the MB turbo-diesel passcar engines. There is a rule in engine design....
If you need cooling or lube oil there, put it there.
Don't count on it happening by chance, because when you really need it, it won't be there.

If you look around, you will find a few passcar motors that have a strange little groove in the upper rod shell that is matched in the rod forging. This is to put lube oil both on the thrust face of the cylinder wall and under the piston crown for cooling.

Matt - the engine lab refugee
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic, once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Johnny Bridges]

Matt, VW did cooler sprays on the turbo 1`600s but not on the NA 1600s (Both Diesels).  They use a different block, which has led to grief when people triedto field add the turbo to the NAs.
 
--johnny
 


________________________________
From: Matt Colie <matt7...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:00 AM

[Les Burt]

Pretty much all of the VW/AUDI turbo engines (gas and diesel) have the piston oiler nozzles.

The 2.3 TD that Ford put in their 85-87 Ranger also had them.

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

[mike foster]

I don't see the problem with a stock engine. Know of far too many BBO's with 150,000+ miles and nothing more than rocker cover gaskets and oil pan gaskets and maybe a read main seal.

Now, if you are drag racing an Olds you need to get the racing 500 cid block developed by Warren Johnson.

[Woody]

Stock 455 engine had a hole in the galley plug....at least according to my 1975 manual.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p52801-img-21061.html

Woody.

[Jim Bounds]

The problem is what is a stock motor. If thats a cheaply built one it will not last pulling 12000lb. You must have a well built motor and if thats so it would not cost anymore to do a few tjings that would make the motor work better to produce low rpm torque . It costs to build up a quality motor no matter what the spec.

Jim Bounds


------------------------------

On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 4:17 PM EST mike foster wrote:

>
>
>I don't see the problem with a stock engine. Know of far too many BBO's with 150,000+ miles and nothing more than rocker cover gaskets and oil pan gaskets and maybe a read main seal.
>
>Now, if you are drag racing an Olds you need to get the racing 500 cid block developed by Warren Johnson.