[GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[David Morrison]

is it worth it? to go with a in tank fuel pump

http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1130

or build my own
http://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/In_tank_Fuel_Pump_Presentation.pdf


today and tomorrow i'm replacing the fuel lines and wondering if i should replace that as well

Thanks David
--
1974 G-M-C Painted Desert #136
"Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car, understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Hp is how fast you hit
the wall, and torque is how far you take the wall with you when you hit it."

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[Matt Colie]

davidlive wrote on Thu, 09 March 2017 13:47

> is it worth it? to go with a in tank fuel pump
>
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1130
>
> or build my own
> http://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/In_tank_Fuel_Pump_Presentation.pdf
>
>
> today and tomorrow i'm replacing the fuel lines and wondering if i should replace that as well
>
> Thanks David

There is nothing about this that is a bad idea.
If you hope to do this be sure of the part numbers. If you are still running a carburetor you want the low pressure pumps.

If the tanks are already down, it would not be a huge tear-up, but it will also require minor electric mods.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Steve Southworth]

Here are some pictures of how I did it.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gas-tank-rework/p36375-in-tank-fuel-pump-for-carb.html


--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Be sure to put access holes above the tanks where the sender openings are if you're going to put active components in the tanks. I did mine outside
the tanks.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6198-cane-9-creek-rv-park-heflin-2c-al.html

Pumps are cheaper and easily replaced.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[James Hupy]

The greatest advantage to having fuel pumps mounted inside the tank is,
near elimination of vapor lock from crapohol fuel. The second might be
elimination of noise from the pump, and third might be longevity of the
pump due to cooling effect of the fuel. A disadvantage might be the
difficulty of servicing the pump. Be sure to provide access to the top of
the tanks to facilitate that. Personally, I prefer pump(s) mounted in an
easily accessible cannister with the pump submerged in fuel, much like the
one Hal St. Clair built for his diesel conversion, or the fuel command
module sold as an option with an efi system that several GMC owners have
installed.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Mar 9, 2017 1:09 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <

[Larry]

Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 09 March 2017 15:08

> Be sure to put access holes above the tanks where the sender openings are if you're going to put active components in the tanks. I did mine
> outside the tanks.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6198-cane-9-creek-rv-park-heflin-2c-al.html
>
> Pumps are cheaper and easily replaced.
>
> --johnny

I started out with a pump on the frame rail. That pump and the replacement made a lot of noise. Just screamed at me especially in hot weather.
Finally took the tanks down and put the pumps in the tanks following Emery Stora's instructions that Dave posted. Fuel pumps are in the tanks and
controlled by the fuel switch on the dashboard. Once activated by dash switch, fuel flows through a check valve located at each tank. Check valve
keeps fuel from flowing into the nonactivated pump and into the other tank. Fuel continues to a "T" in the line allowing pressure to build at the Fuel
Pressure Regulator located on the frame rail in front of the front tank. Once calibrated pressure is reached, excess fuel is dumped back into the
front fuel tank which is the "reserve" tank. Pressurized fuel then flows through another check valve which keeps fuel under pressure for "hot
restart". Fuel then flows through an inline fuel filter and on to a "dead head" throttle body or dead head fuel rails.
The system is designed this way with the pressure regulator located on the frame rail at the front tank to keep fuel from going to the engine, heated
up by engine heat, and returned to the tank hot, thereby increasing the chances of vapor-lock.

The system has port injection with fuel rails that run between the injectors. The engine compartment is confined and gets quite hot during hot
weather. When the engine is shut off for a gas stop, the fuel will built pressure because of the excess heat. It builds so much pressure that the
pressure holds the injector pintles closed so that the engine will not restart. So I added another Fuel Pressure Regulator at the fuel rails set at
70lbs to dump that excess pressure off to the fuel filler. This system has performed well for the past 3 yrs.

Just the way I did it and my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate way of doing
things....that's all...

--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

For an injection system, that makes sense. For a carbureted system, up to discussion. The Mr. Gasket pumps I used are quiet. You likely have
whatever's on my ratrod toad - not sure who built it but it's noisy. Mr Gasket had built in check valves, hence the simple tee on the outputs. A
word of caution for those who choose this route do NOT use the filters supplied with the Mr. Gasket pumps. They're cheeep heathen chinee filters
which under a bit of road vibration separate at the crimp and draw air in instead of gas. Baaad juju. Wix makes an exact replacement, use it
instead.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[David Morrison]

Fuel Tanks are out (as i'm replacing the hose anyways). and one has a dent of something that previous owner ran over i guess, so i'm going to get that
out, finish draining them of the bad fuel, paint them.

I'm going to install in tank pumps and build it using emery's instructions, i like that design


Two Questions:

I'm missing the charcoal canister doesn't even look like one was ever installed is that normal ? it is a federal emission standard coach (as it
doesn't have egr, etc.)

[George Beckman]

davidlive wrote on Thu, 09 March 2017 18:12

> Fuel Tanks are out (as i'm replacing the hose anyways). and one has a dent of something that previous owner ran over i guess, so i'm going to get
> that out, finish draining them of the bad fuel, paint them.
>
> I'm going to install in tank pumps and build it using emery's instructions, i like that design
>
>
> Two Questions:
>
> I'm missing the charcoal canister doesn't even look like one was ever installed is that normal ? it is a federal emission standard coach (as it
> doesn't have egr, etc.)
>
>
> Thanks David

The fed coaches did have a charcoal canister, at least my 78 did.. I would definitely put one on. It is a win-win. The canister keeps fuel from being
vaporized into the air and up your nose. (My wife hates gas a smell.) Secondly, it lets you burn the vapor that would escape into the air. If the
coach has been stripped of this equipment, you will need a separator valve. It is normally located in the driver's rear wheel well, just in front of
the frontmost bogie. Without the separator, raw gas can be allowed to go into the canister, or if the hose is just laying somewhere, it can be quite a
fire hazard. We hear stories of gas dripping on the ground.

If all of the vapor system has been removed, then the pressure has to be leaking someplace. I have heard of gas caps being drilled, which wouldn't fly
in our coach. Even after a fillup, my wife doesn't like the gas smell if a bit burps into the fill area.

I had a 78 that had vapor release problems and the tanks would swell so badly from pressure that the fuel gauge actually would drop to 1/2 tank in 30
minutes after filling. Until I could correct the problem I had to "carefully" let pressure off at the cap. Once the pressure was gone, the gauge would
go to full again.


--
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George

[Jim Kanomata]

Any rubber used inside the tank must use the special hose that is rated for
submersible use.
This is different than the fuel hose used as fuel line.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Rob Mueller]

David,

If you're going to keep be carb follow Steve Southwood's instructions and
pump the fuel to a surge tank. Connect the surge tank to the mechanical fuel
pump. If, at a later date, you decide to go to EFI you can connect the high
pressure pump to the surge tank.

Why do this you ask, well I, for one, would rather have 20 feet of fuel
lines that are pressurized to 7 psi rather than 40 psi.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

[David Morrison]

Where would i find Steve Southwood's instructions ?

[David Morrison]

Any thoughts at what charcoal canister to use ?

[Rob Mueller]

Go back through this thread and open the email from him.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David
Morrison

[David Morrison]

I did find the charcoal filter, it was just in a different location then my other coach, i thought it would be mounted on the wall where the steps
where, but it's mounted off the frame.

And I don't see where in Steve Southwood's is any information on the surge tank, the link goes to a photo site that just shows what he did for in-tank
pump, cleaning/painting and moving the fuel tanks.

[Rob Mueller]

David,

Oops!

I thought it was in there, sorry.

It's pretty simple, just plumb both fuel pumps to the surge tank and run a
line from the surge tank to the mechanical fuel pump. Run a return line from
the surge tank to the fuel filler vent line that returns fuel to the fuel
tanks. See Parts Book 78Z / page 12-2 / Figure 12.001 - FUEL TANK, LINES &
FUEL EMISSION SYSTEM. It's just to the left of 29.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David
Morrison
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 4:46 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

If you're going to use a carb, Rob, that becomes a complex setup to no purpose. And costly in the bargain. You've added failure points, more
connections, and an extra container of gasoline where you might not want it. I don't see any benefit over a pair of pumps in the back either in or by
the tanks for a carbureted engine. A case can be made to a degree for an injected engine.

--johnny

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Wally Anderson]

davidlive wrote on Fri, 10 March 2017 11:45

> I did find the charcoal filter, it was just in a different location then my other coach, i thought it would be mounted on the wall where the steps
> where, but it's mounted off the frame.
>
> And I don't see where in Steve Southwood's is any information on the surge tank, the link goes to a photo site that just shows what he did for
> in-tank pump, cleaning/painting and moving the fuel tanks.
>
>
> Thanks David

Links to some surge tank systems
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/electric-fuel-pump-installed-under-23-5c-27-gmc-mh/p41864-010-10-in-x-5-in-id-efi-accumulator-under-driver-s-seat.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/500-cadillac-fuel-injection/p5540.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-port-injection-manifold-and-megasquirtii/p29340-surge3s.html
Those with Fitech fuel command systems have the same type of deal
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/

[Ken Henderson]

Just keep the record straight: The arrangement shown at
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/electric-fuel-pump-installed-under-23-5c-27-gmc-mh/p41864-010-10-in-x-5-in-id-efi-accumulator-under-driver-s-seat.html
was modified soon after that album was posted. The description posted is,
somehow, a mishmash of different arrangements (I've had several over the
years).

The current configuration is:

Each tank (Main and Aux) has a dedicated filter and Carter 4070
electric pump on the outside of the left frame rail. Whichever of those is
powered, through a relay, from the dash fuel tank selector, feeds the
accumulator shown above. The two pumps' outputs are tee'd through check
valves into a single steel line to the accumulator. The check valves are
not necessary with the Carter 4070's, but who knows what substitutes i
might be stuck with in case of an on-the-road failure.

The accumulator has a return line from its top to the Aux tank drain, with
a skid guard over the steel line. That ensures that I always know that tank
has reserve fuel.

The high pressure filter and pump for the TBI are fed from the bottom of
the accumulator, and the TBI return is into the accumulator.

The Carter 4070's, as far as I know (remember, only my right ear works and
that only about 1/2 well), are very quiet. The high pressure pump is
slightly more noisy, but not enough to disturb HER. No neighbor has ever
complained about pump racket. If they did, I'd probably crank up my
TroyBilt generator so they couldn't hear it. :-)

This arrangement has worked flawlessly, with no vapor lock problems for
over 5 years now.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Wally Anderson <wally...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ​...​

>
> Links to some surge tank systems
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/electric-fuel-pump-
> installed-under-23-5c-27-gmc-mh/p41864-010-10-in-x-5-in-id-
> efi-accumulator-under-driver-s-seat.html
>
>

[Rob Mueller]

Johnny,

People have always told me I had more money than sense! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 10:21 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[David Morrison]

Not going to do the surge tank right now, possibly in the future though.


doesn't look too complex to install later on if i'm understanding it correctly.

Fuel tank - In tank pump - Check valve - Y adapter -- Surge Tank - High pressure pump - Fuel injectors
Fuel tank - In tank pump - Check valve - Y adapter / \ Y Adapter Back to tanks Via fuel vapor return lines
( http://www.nukeperformance.com/pdf/fst_flowchart.pdf )
something like that.

Thanks David

--
78 Royal #749
74 #136

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

With low pressure pumps in back, adding the surge tank and high pressure pump for FI is no more trouble than mounting it now. Save the loot till you
need it.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Rob Mueller]

Johnny,

The Kingsley has a Caddy 500 with EFI, The Blue Streak has a 455 with a
Holley EFI.

Double Trouble has a Paterson carb on it and a small cube pump plumbed into
the Aux tank that comes on when AUX is selected to feed the mechanical pump,
however, I will be selling Double Trouble when I get the Kingsley the want
it.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 12:25 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[David Morrison]

If i did use a surge tank, i'm not sure what brand or model i would use, i would need some research for it.

Thanks David
--
78 Royal #749

74 #136

[Rob Mueller]

I got mine off eBay Australia, it holds one litre of petrol and is a cube
150mm square with a bunch of fittings on it so you can pick which one works
best for your installation.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder

AUS '75 Avion - The Blue streak TZE365V100428

USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David
Morrison
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 3:01 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I looked at the single boost pump idea, but rejected it in favor of two pumps in the rear and removing the mechanical pump. No more trouble to
install than one and a check valve, and they kept pressure up regardless which tank was in service. The way I mounted them the original hoses were
used throughout and the selector capped, allowing a reversion to stock beside the road in about 30 minutes if the need arose. Since the NO (Mike) is
in New England, the coach probably won't see the underside heat it did in Georgia and Florida in the summertime, so the setup might be overkill in
that area. What mileage do the coaches produce, Rob?

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Rob Mueller]

The AUX boost pump is JimB's fix and is very easy to install, HOWEVER, it
does have a down side!

If the diaphragm in the mechanical pump leaks it will fill the crankcase
with gas and that ain't good!

I have driven Double Trouble all over the USA and the AUX pump has saved the
bacon MANY times. As soon as the engine begins to stumble I switch to AUX
and a few seconds it purrs. Funny you should mention Florida, it worked
overtime when Helen and I drove down to key west. We went through some city
that had a string of stop lights and I had to leave it on constantly as it
was summer and every time we stopped for a light the engine would stumble.

I have never checked the mileage on any of my GMC, sorry.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder

AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----

From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 1:16 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Dual pumps and a blank flange on the block answers both of your concerns. Stumbles don't happen at all since there's always pressure from the rear.
The E II has an MSD injection system, so with it the question is kind of moot.It has an outboard regulator and return to the fill, so there's no need
for a surge tank.

--johnny

[Steve Southworth]

Johnny Bridges wrote on Fri, 10 March 2017 17:20

> If you're going to use a carb, Rob, that becomes a complex setup to no purpose. And costly in the bargain. You've added failure points, more
> connections, and an extra container of gasoline where you might not want it. I don't see any benefit over a pair of pumps in the back either in or
> by the tanks for a carbureted engine. A case can be made to a degree for an injected engine.
>
> --johnny

Is the surge tank needed with a carb? Probably not. For fuel injection it's absolutely necessary. I went this way for two reasons:

1 -I set it up so when/if I install FI I do not have to redo the entire system. Just replace the low pressure pump with the one needed for your
specific FI.

2 - The GMCMH gas tanks are very wide and not deep. If a steep angle is encountered, side to side or front to back, when low on fuel, the pickup
will be uncovered. Then the system will suck air. With a carb not a big problem as there is fuel in the bowl. For an FI sucking air would cause a
pressure drop killing the engine. Most, if not all, OEM fuel systems incorporate some kind of surge tank. The ones I'm familiar with, this surge tank
is part of the fuel pump module.

Johnny make some valid points. I feel this is a "you pays your money and takes your choice" item. My system is a JWID. With a carb there is an
additional advantage. If the fuel pump on the surge tank fails pinching off the return line to tanks will restore fuel flow to the carb. For FI
carry a spare appropriate pressure pump.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[Steve Southworth]

davidlive wrote on Sat, 11 March 2017 22:01

> If i did use a surge tank, i'm not sure what brand or model i would use, i would need some research for it.
>
>
> Thanks David

I used a small air tank approx one gallon. I was made by WOLO the air horn mfr. WARNING- this tank has metric threads and needs one additional
outlet so there is some metal work involved to use it. There may be better products out there for this. It does not need to be a heavy walled tank.
It will only have 6psi applied and it is built to take 100psi, if you are using an air tank.

--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[Dolph Santorine]

Steve:

You’re making a great case for FITech’s Fuel Command Center, which partially functions as a surge tank.

Dolph Santorine
77 Palm Beach

[Rob Mueller]

Steve,

And I copied your work as I agreed with your logic because even with the
Facet cube pump installed in the AUX line I experienced problems climbing up
to the Eisenhower tunnel with fuel starvation. It could be because I FORGOT
to fill both tanks fully before I started that day!

Whether in-tank pumps would have helped the situation I can't say, however,
I am pretty sure that the inlet of the 7 psi pumps from a Riviera are closer
to the bottom of the tank than the OEM inlet.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Southworth
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:53 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank Pump ?

[Steve Southworth]

Dolph Santorine wrote on Tue, 14 March 2017 08:11

> Steve:
>
> You're making a great case for FITech's Fuel Command Center, which partially functions as a surge tank.
>
> Dolph Santorine
> 77 Palm Beach

Probably correct. However I suspect my setup is significantly less expensive but requires some metalwork. I'm not familiar with the FITech item but
it may be more plug and play. I put mine behind the LF wheel liner. This then precludes running without the liner. I have no idea if the FITech
system would fit there.

[Steve Southworth]

We will be in Shawnee if someone wants to see my system.