[GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Manny Trovao (of Manny Tranny fame) has just released for sale his new rear brake system and I have one installed on my coach at Dothan. It is getting a lot of attention.

The system consists of four wheel disc brakes and a four link (torque transfer, reaction arm...choose your name of choice) system all in one integrated package. It comes complete with all grade 8 fasteners, rotors, calipers, and brake hoses for $1000 plus shipping. A tracking system is available for an additional $100. All you need to do is buy the brake pads of your choice.

My system (the final prototype) was installed on Ken Henderson's pit and we found a couple minor issues that Manny will address in the production systems. Manny has been running this system on his coach for some years.

I changed my Master Cylinder (P30) and brake lines and that took a couple extra days. Other than that, I'd guess it is about a 3 day installation for someone with normal skills. The installation is straight forward and the documentation is absolutely first rate. Karen Bradley, who did the excellent documentation on Manny's 1 ton front end system, not only installed her system HERSELF, she did an exceptional job on the instruction/documentation. Ken and I followed her instructions to make sure they were accurate and after our feedback was incorporated we're confident they are perfectly clear with plenty of well labeled photos.

I'm VERY happy with the system. I now have brakes that actually work. Admittedly, my brakes were marginal before but now I can actually stop. In fact, on the way home from Ken's, I was about 6 coach lengths behind a semi, in traffic with no shoulder, running about 60. The semi suddenly darted into a gap in the traffic and I see a broken down semi doing about 10 in my lane. I stood on the brakes and got stopped but I am 100% confident that I would have rear ended him with my original brakes....100%!

As we were testing, we did some stops on gravel with Ken walking beside the coach. The mid brakes locked up first and the rear brake was almost locked up...the perfect combination.

Since then, the brakes have improved as the pads wore in.

The calipers and brakes are the same as the TSM system (79-85 Eldorado). The parking brake uses the rear Eldorado caliper levers and are not optimal...at least on my coach. Ken and I believe they can be made to work but we haven't "invented" the changes yet.

I have my wheels off so folks can see the system and Tuesday, we're going to let folks drive it.

I'm VERY satisfied and believe there are a great upgrade and a important contribution to the community. I thought I had some photos in my laptop but will get them posted soon.

Manny can be reached at: 408-937-1583 or mailto:Manny...@gmail.com
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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[Dennis Sexton]

Kerry,

Thank you for reporting/sharing this new system.
Look forward to the photos when you have time.
Manny does some great work for our GMC community.

Dennis

Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sat, 23 March 2013 13:55

> Manny Trovao (of Manny Tranny fame) has just released for sale his new rear brake system and I have one installed on my coach at Dothan. It is getting a lot of attention.
>
> The system consists of four wheel disc brakes and a four link (torque transfer, reaction arm...choose your name of choice) system all in one integrated package. It comes complete with all grade 8 fasteners, rotors, calipers, and brake hoses for $1000 plus shipping. A tracking system is available for an additional $100. All you need to do is buy the brake pads of your choice.
>
> My system (the final prototype) was installed on Ken Henderson's pit and we found a couple minor issues that Manny will address in the production systems. Manny has been running this system on his coach for some years.
>
> I changed my Master Cylinder (P30) and brake lines and that took a couple extra days. Other than that, I'd guess it is about a 3 day installation for someone with normal skills. The installation is straight forward and the documentation is absolutely first rate. Karen Bradley, who did the excellent documentation on Manny's 1 ton front end system, not only installed her system HERSELF, she did an exceptional job on the instruction/documentation. Ken and I followed her instructions to make sure they were accurate and after our feedback was incorporated we're confident they are perfectly clear with plenty of well labeled photos.
>
> I'm VERY happy with the system. I now have brakes that actually work. Admittedly, my brakes were marginal before but now I can actually stop. In fact, on the way home from Ken's, I was about 6 coach lengths behind a semi, in traffic with no shoulder, running about 60. The semi suddenly darted into a gap in the traffic and I see a broken down semi doing about 10 in my lane. I stood on the brakes and got stopped but I am 100% confident that I would have rear ended him with my original brakes....100%!
>
> As we were testing, we did some stops on gravel with Ken walking beside the coach. The mid brakes locked up first and the rear brake was almost locked up...the perfect combination.
>
> Since then, the brakes have improved as the pads wore in.
>
> The calipers and brakes are the same as the TSM system (79-85 Eldorado). The parking brake uses the rear Eldorado caliper levers and are not optimal...at least on my coach. Ken and I believe they can be made to work but we haven't "invented" the changes yet.
>
> I have my wheels off so folks can see the system and Tuesday, we're going to let folks drive it.
>
> I'm VERY satisfied and believe there are a great upgrade and a important contribution to the community. I thought I had some photos in my laptop but will get them posted soon.
>

> Manny can be reached at: 408-937-1583 or Manny...@gmail.com


--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[A.]

Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sat, 23 March 2013 13:55

> Manny Trovao (of Manny Tranny fame) has just released for sale his new rear brake system...for $1000 plus shipping. ...
How much was shipping? I figure from SoCal to you is about the same as SoCal to me.

--
'73 23' Sequoia For Camping
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
UA (Upper Alabama)
"Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Shipping to me was $250 but I have a commercial site. It would probably be cheaper if you picked it up at the freight depot. The crate weights about 250# and is difficult to handle. I put mine in the back of my pickup. It would be difficult to load into the trunk of a car. If that is all I had, I'd probably bring a battery screwdriver, take the lid off, and unload it piece by piece into my trunk. That is what I had to do to get it in my coach when I took it down to Ken's

[KB]

May as well share where the instructions are, with the
warning that these are still a DRAFT version. Kerry and Ken
did a great job testing them, but I already have a growing
list of things to add/fix.

See:
http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/brakes

PLEASE REFER ONLY TO THE MOST CURRENT VERSION ONLINE!
PLEASE DON'T SHARE COPIES, THEY WILL RAPIDLY BE OUT OF DATE!!!
I don't mean to shout, but I've run into this problem before
and it's incredibly frustrating.

We're REALLY excited about this kit, and grateful for
all the hard work Manny did bringing it to life.

thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'

[KB]

I believe the optional Tru Track parts are JUST the parts
needed to make this kit work with an existing tru track kit.

[KB]

If you want to see how the kit moves, we made a video
which you can find here:

http://youtu.be/G0w-mQEE9dY

[Jay Rabe]

I'm in the process of upgrading to disk brakes. On my future todo list was the reaction arm. Once I have my disk brakes installed (parts bought, installation in progress), can I use either Manny or Chuck's reaction arm?

Thanks,

Jay Rabe
76PB
Portland, OR
> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 17:47:20 -0700
> From: ka...@sonic.net
> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System

[Billy Massey]

I can relate. Old copies of the Black List are floating around growing
older.

Other pages are also that I don't know whether to waste my time on.

bdub


-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:47 PM

... snip ...

PLEASE REFER ONLY TO THE MOST CURRENT VERSION ONLINE!
PLEASE DON'T SHARE COPIES, THEY WILL RAPIDLY BE OUT OF DATE!!!
I don't mean to shout, but I've run into this problem before and it's
incredibly frustrating.

... snip ...

[Kerry Pinkerton]

jayrabe wrote on Sat, 23 March 2013 20:36
> I'm in the process of upgrading to disk brakes. On my future todo list was the reaction arm. Once I have my disk brakes installed (parts bought, installation in progress), can I use either Manny or Chuck's reaction arm?...


As I understand it, the Manny Brake system uses the same rotors/calipers as the TSM system and if you have TSM brakes Manny will sell you his system less the brakes. However, I don't THINK other calipers/rotors will fit. I don't know about Chuck's system.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[jhb1]

We all know Manny is camera shy but, we need pictures of the setup installed as well as all the parts, my income tax return is looking to be spent
--
John H. Bell
77 Royale
Montreal Qc.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Here is a link to a photo of all the parts on Karen Bradley's site:

http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/brakes/Images/kitparts.jpg

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[KB]

> We all know Manny is camera shy but, we need pictures of the setup installed as well as all the parts, my income tax return is looking to be spent

Go to the instructions page and you'll see it installed in the first picture.
Parts list, etc, are also included:

http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/brakes

Video of how it moves is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0w-mQEE9dY

Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'

[jhb1]

Perfect now if I can figure out wether this will work with the Caspro sway bars that i have installed. Have to wait for the snow to melt to get the coach out of storage. This looks like it may work great instructions well presented. You should work for the company I am at writing their technical manuals.

KB wrote on Sun, 24 March 2013 13:51

--
John H. Bell
77 Royale
Montreal Qc.

[Ron Johnson]

Those parts are beautifully finished, that's an impressive kit. I will be
thinking about this.

Ron Johnson
77 Eleganza II
Escondido, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:00 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System

[Ken Henderson]

Karen,

Not so. Before Kerry or I would give anyone here a guess at the price for
the true-track option, I called Manny. After a bit of humming and hawing,
he told me his costs and I suggested the price should be "Not more than
$200". "Naww-- that's too much." "OK, we'll tell 'em NMT $150."
"Naah...$100." "Manny, that's not enough!" "Yes, it is -- $100."

Sounds pretty firm to me, and DOES include the cam followers and tracks.

Even after that, I still think it's too cheap and won't be surprised if he
finds production costs force him to increase it.


Ken H.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:05 PM, KB wrote:

> I believe the optional Tru Track parts are JUST the parts
> needed to make this kit work with an existing tru track kit.
>
>

[Carl Stouffer]

Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 24 March 2013 20:30

That's a little hard to compete with.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Thomas Pryor]

The Manny Brake System -- THE REST OF THE STORY

I became aware of a theft issue that was revealed at Dothan tribal
meeting this past weekend.

At Dothan, Jim K revealed that Manny regularly visits Applied GMC.
During one or more
of those visits he collected information on the Reaction Arm Brake System
that Jim K developed with Chuck Alguar and designer Rich Flanagan.

Manny requested from Jim K supplier info and part numbers under the
pretense that he, -Manny-,
was going to use the information to add the Reaction Arm portion on
Gene Fisher’s coach
that already had been up–fitted with disk brakes.

JIM K UNDERSTOOD THIS TO BE A ONE-TIME HARMLESS EVENT.

At Dothan, Jim K was surprised to see the newly revealed Manny
Braking System, at pricing that can
only be described as selling at cost or dumping. Jim K was never
consulted for permission or how he
could be reimbursed for his previous development, testing and designing costs.

In my opinion, anyone who purchases this system is supporting the
demise of the vendor base.
The GMC Tribe is small and getting smaller. The Vendors eeck-out a
relatively small profit and support
their businesses with other ventures to support us. What happens when
our vendors no longer
survive because of these type of tatics.

Will Manny support our tribe with his presence at tribal meetings?
Spread good will, lottery gifts,
and provide un-paralled service when we are stranded on the road?

Folks, I’ve never met this Manny. He is a non-entity to me. Jim K has always
been truthful with me and is well respected by his customers and
fellow vendors.

As I Stated earlier this is Theft!





Tom Pryor
Transmode 23 TZE337V101011

Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.

[Manny Trovao]

Thomas, you're spreading hear say information that isn't quite true.
I was given the prototype caliper from Chuck for the TSM brakes.
I was also given the prototype caliper for the drum brake from Chuck.
I mentioned to Jim and he wanted to pursue it and I let him.
He was giving me a discount so my cost would be $2400.00.
Because he was using the sway bars, I decided to build my own.
But like anything if you have the parts made in quantities, the price
per piece goes down alot.
So I had 25 sets made.
And by the way the reference you made to Gene Fisher wasn't for the
reaction arms, it was for a pair of axles for the One Ton Kit that Jim
wanted to sell me for $300.00 and sold it to Gene for $170.00.
Those lotto gifts are not free, someone overpaid in parts (myself included).
Sorry guys just frustrated
--
Manny Trovao
manny...@gmail.com
Manny's Trans / Power Drive
San Jose, California
408-937-1583

[mr.er...@gmail.com]

You should get your facts straight before you say these lies.
And
Why was my name in this abomination?

Gene

FREE WIFI @ Mickey D

[Jeremy]

Before this one gets out of hand, can we just have the original posting removed or ignore it? The word THEFT is pretty ugly and shouldn't be tossed around lightly. Similarly DUMPING is not accurate given the information that was available in Dothan (and yes, I spent considerable time talking to Kerry P, who was basically Manny's guy on the site, about the system).

If you have concerns about the Manny system, speak with him. Manny Trovao has made himself available to many who have called to talk, hopefully he will continue to do so if you have questions or concerns and don't approach it in an insulting manner.
--
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL

[Thomas Pryor]

I'm just the messenger and quoted Jim K.

Sounds like a simple phone call Jim to announce the impending release would
have been helpful and courteous.






Tom Pryor

Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.

[Ken Henderson]

Good reply, Jeremy.

There's a lot more to this story than anyone, including me, knows. It has
been extensively discussed, behind the scenes. It is not a "good"
situation, but it is really no worse than the Quad-Bag vs 4-Bag situation
earlier -- and many others, in every industry, and every group, forever. I
suspect Ogg didn't like it when Ugg started also using clubs instead of
throwing rocks as they'd done before. The details of the competition are
for the principals to work out between themselves. For the rest of us, we
can only follow our own judgments and best interests.

I'll have nothing more to say on the subject.

If anyone else wants to build electric wipers, have at it. The critical
part of the design is the relative lengths and relationships of the arms.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Jeremy wrote:

>
>
> Before this one gets out of hand, can we just have the original posting
> removed or ignore it? The word THEFT is pretty ugly and shouldn't be tossed
> around lightly. Similarly DUMPING is not accurate given the information
> that was available in Dothan (and yes, I spent considerable time talking to
> Kerry P, who was basically Manny's guy on the site, about the system).
>
> If you have concerns about the Manny system, speak with him. Manny Trovao
> has made himself available to many who have called to talk, hopefully he
> will continue to do so if you have questions or concerns and don't approach
> it in an insulting manner.
> --
>

[MIGUEL MENDEZ]

I am so glad no one has taken my idea and made any money of it, the truth is, this is a shame that this had to come to this, but it has, I have many ideas and I implement many of them, and the ones I cannot do due to money, i send to Jim, i have even talk to many one a couple of ides and he looked at me after thinking of my plan, he then turned to me and F'er, your right, that would work perfect, he then told me to keep on with the r & d, I put it on the back burner for now.

But given time, my idea will blow away the reaction arm, but then, can i sell it???
who knows

I know Jim loves Manny and Manny loves Jim to death, maybe those 2 need to hash it out while i eat ice cream, hmmmmm, sounds fun, but writing these things here is just really not the thing to be doing
--
Miguel

1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, side bath w/ a 403 that i love.

GMC name : The other woman


http://www.mgmgmc.com

[michael mitchell]

MGM
Please send me my receipt from last year - thank you Mickey
77 palm beach
Anaheim ca.
Best regards

Sent from my iPhone

[KB]

Because both kits are based on Chuck Algur's design, there are, of course,
similarities. If you look though, you will see very substantial differences.
This is NOT simply a knock-off of JimK's kit.

Reaction/torque type brakes/suspensions have been around for decades
in other applications, and Chuck was not the only one to apply
the idea to GMC's.

I've seen no evidence that Manny tried to hide the development
of this kit from anyone. Quite the contrary since he openly
installed the kit here in California at a rally a couple
of months ago. It's also been mentioned in passing on the forum
for some time.

I appreciate and support ALL our vendors to the extent
that I can, and do my best not to take sides.

Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'

[Gary Berry]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Thomas Pryor <tep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Manny Brake System -- THE REST OF THE STORY

> At Dothan, Jim K was surprised to see the newly revealed Manny
> Braking System,

The only thing I would add is that JimK saw and looked over the
Manny RA system that we had installed prior to the 49'er Red Bluff
Rally this last fall, so he couldn't have been really surprised when
he saw it at Dothan.

--
Gary and Diana Berry
73 CL Stretch in Wa.

[KB]

I must also add that your assertions Manny doesn't support the
community or provide good service are utterly wrong.

[Mickey Space Ship Shuttle]

some do , some talk, manny does, jimK does, Jim B does, The three great ones are the integrity that helps us all and we all

do not have to say a word to protect them for their actions say it all, pure integrity.

Thank you jimK, JimB, and the only tranny to have manny who drove 10 hours to rebuild my trans.

I trust my credit card with JimK, and JimB. what more can i say.

THere are others and i hope to buy from them as well. Lets help them in anyway we can.

also donate to these sites that help us so much, we thank you so much.

god bless them

We are so blessed to have people like them to help us all.

There is nothing wrong with having a few fights along the way. we are all human.

In my gmc song there is a line below.

When i get to the rally without a bent fender
i go straight to venders with all credit cards maxed out
with ice cream and grins and few fights on the chin
we all go home happy no doubt.

mickey
77 Palm beach
anaheim ca.


Here is my gmc song.

six wheels on the ground and we are all leaving town
to an adventure in our GMC
We are filled with gas and were off at last
to an adventure in our GMC

Big windows to see - the world of the free
the front wheel drive with a manny tranny
and all the treasures from jimK and JimB
Six wheels on the road and were free.

Just give me a home in a GMC gone
and try not to hit a tree
For all we are friends that own GMC's
and the black list is there to some degree.

We need new tires and more gas for our fires
and fan clutch that sounds like a train
forget the credit card bills
it is worth it to know the thrill
of the gmc motor home game.

when we see other rigs
they are just to big
for our 10 miles a gallon home lies
Just give me a home with a GMC to roam
that rides like a cloud in the skies
that i love out loud and a computer crowd
yes a computer to get help from the gang
to tell me what to do with some thing

When i get to the rally without a bent fender
i go straight to venders with all credit cards maxed out
with ice cream and grins and few fights on the chin
we all go home happy no doubt.

Just give me a GMC motor home
to see the world and roam
from key to shinning key
for we all love the truth
as we go through a toll booth
that people can't help but see
they wish they had a home like me.

let tornados blow,
and large fires glow
earthquakes and rain from the sea
for i can always escape
with the trouble in my wake
and fly in my GMC.

When i get old and die
i will leave it to someone kind
that loves it and make sure
they do, for all the money
and sweat and tears
we put in the gears
to make it work for you
the future to see
without regret
it is the best you can bet
to roam in the throne
of a GMC motor home
and the adventure of being free.


mickey

77 palm beach

anaheim ca.

[Ken Burton]

I have no dog in the in hunt on this one, but to bad mouth Manny is way out of line.

I have seen Manny show up at a rally and by himself change a trans in the parking log for a GMCer.

In another case Many drove from a GMCMI rally 3 to 4 hours one way to rescue a rally attendee broken down on the road. After arriving as the break site fixed the trans problem and the GMCer went on to attend the rally.

In my case Manny personally delivered me a rebuilt trans in Indiana. Manny is from San Jose, California.

In another case besides Mickey's, Manny drove from San Jose to the LA area to deliver a rebuilt trans for another GMCer in trouble.

So to try to get us to pick Manny over Jim (who I also consider a friend) or Jim over Manny is way out of line and has no place on this forum.

Both of them will go a long way to help any GMCer.

If there is currently a problem between the two of them, let them work it out. They both are good people and do not deserve this disparagement.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Jim Bounds]

You betcha.  I wish none of this came between them and I bet it will be solved.  I owe my business to both of these fine people and there is no way I will get involved.  Jim-- Manny, go have some beers and find a way to work this out together.  Don't care which system that's used, just that all of us along with the community carries on.  I didn't even read this thread, does not matter to me-- there is nothing you could say that would make me think anything less of either of them.
 
Jim Bounds
-----------------------------


________________________________
From: Ken Burton <n9...@comcast.net>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 5:27 AM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System

[r...@gmcnet.org]

Hey hey Jim&Manny are both great guys we need them both either one will go out of their way to lend a helping hand .
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[Byron Songer]

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." So, here goes.

I was present and listening in on the information posted previously. I went
away very bothered. I spoke to a friend who is just a bit older than I. The
friend has his own story of being a vendor and having another vendor seek to
"get in on the action" and no significant investment on his part. I came
away from that discussion still with a bothered mind.

There is no doubt that there are many individuals who are a part of the GMC
community who do their part to make a positive contribution. However, that
doesn't give any individual the right to unfairly profit from the work of
another. Too often we tend to think of "theft" as the taking of something
physical that isn't yours. There's also "intellectual theft" when you take
someone else's ideas, research, financial outlay, or investment in time and
turn around with a subtle tweak and resell. It doesn't matter about the
motive. It's still an immoral and unethical move.

From what I've heard about some prominent GMCers, other prominent GMCers
have stolen and been stolen from. I guess it could be written off as "all's
fair in love and war" or some other piece of verbal quackery.

Some of us have heard the definition of integrity; doing right when someone
else isn't watching. What I think is needed for all of us is a bit more
integrity and a dose of good, honest, moral action.

I'm not about to sit in judgment on this issue. I'm sure that this incident,
like divorce, has two sides; yours and shithead's.

What I'm really asking for is that all of use expect better of ourselves and
hold each other accountable.

The GMC community is hurt each time something like this arises and it gets
made public. I'm not sure I see the point of pointing fingers. However, I do
see the real point of trying to say this: We each need to take the extra
steps needed in being sure that the things or ideas we sell are being sold
with the right motives, the right credits, and the right price.

Let me give you a "for instance". I saw one of my graphics on the website of
a certain vendor. I sent an email stating that the graphic was being
displayed as a part of his logo without my permission. The vendor, at my
insistence, removed the graphic. What struck me was that in my email I had
left enough of a hint that he could take steps to get my permission. I
suppose that person didn't want to go to the trouble of doing the descent
thing. You now know my opinion of that guy's integrity.

Now, what is really interesting about that individual was that he got very
upset when someone else took his product, modified it, and brought out a
competing product. You can imagine what happened -- tempers flared.

Morals of the story are these. (1) We humans get upset when someone takes
from us. (2) We tend to overlook the times we take from someone else. Now I
ask you this: Who has the right to get angry and badmouth the other guy? If
you don't know the answer please write off-net and I'll give you more clues.

There's enough blame to go around. Is there not enough integrity?

Byron Songer
Louisville, KY

Get Gary Bovee's excellent Internet Idiot's Guide for the GMC MotorHome for
your iPad at the following URL --
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/internet-idiots-guide-for/id623353780?ls=1

[gene Fisher]

> There's also "intellectual theft" when you take
> someone else's ideas, research, financial outlay, or investment in time and
> turn around with a subtle tweak and resell. It doesn't matter about the
> motive. It's still an immoral and unethical move.
>

strange, since they all came from here
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5538-reaction-brake-norm.html
published and prototyped, 2 years before any others

gene



--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Kingsley Coach]

Mr Pryor

You are out of line..and anyone who wants to speak of intellectual
"rights", go soak your head..

There are no new ideas guys, just re-worked older ones....see Genes posting!

If there wasn't so much difference between the prices, this would never be
an issue. And why is there so much difference?

Mike currently in NC

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

[Kerry Pinkerton]

I've been debating posting in this unfortunate thread and was not but as Byron said "...fools rush in"...I guess I qualify too.

Tom, I guess it's safe to say that I won't be on your Christmas card list huh? It's sad that you did not choose to have this discussion face to face in Dothan instead of lobbing a mortar shell from behind your keyboard.

The fact of the matter is that unless someone can show me written documents showing where you or Jim K have exclusive rights to the 4 link (reaction arm) system as it applies to GMC motor homes, this is just so much sour grapes because Manny found a way to produce a good product at a vastly better price. Once a design is in the public domain, it's fair game. Someone who produces a better product and prices it fairly get rewarded by the marketplace.

This is GOOD for the community because people that don't have $4700 or so to spend on disc brakes, reaction arms, and true tracks can get the whole thing for $1100. DUH! Yeah, it will probably effect your future sales. That is what is called capitalism and free enterprise....you know, the American Way?

It might thought that some folks are suggesting that the community collude to prohibit competition. There are economies where this is done....fortunately not in the US...yet. As far as supporting our vendors, I do and will continue to do so.

I produce and market a product. I've had people produce similar products and this is what keeps me thinking about ways to make my products better and more competitive.

As far as DUMPING goes, I told Manny he was priced too low. He told me what his profit was and said, "That's enough. I want people to be able to afford them." I admire that. Heck of a nice guy in my book. So is Jim by the way. I've spent a couple thousand bucks with Jim so far and will continue to do so.

As far as Manny STEALING (btw Tom, you should google LIBEL) that is an absolute crock. ANY fabricator with half a brain could take one look at any reaction arm setup and design one with nothing more than a yard stick, the brake specs, and a set of bogies to measure...rocket science it ain't. In addition, the Manny Brake system is much, much different than yours or Jim's. If anything, I'd think Manny tried to do things differently so he would not be accused of copying. The fact that he was able to build similar functionality at his price is proof he succeeded. Where you and Jim chose to have expensive machine work done and build in minimum orders, Manny chose a COTS approach (Commercial Off The Shelf)and build in volume. Hence the vastly lower price. He took a LARGE financial risk and laid out the cash up front. The community gets the benefit and owe Manny a huge vote of thanks.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Robin Hood]

At that price point, it lets me get aluminum wheels all around and disc
brakes on the rear. The coach will be much safer. And it will happen much
sooner.

--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome

[Byron Songer]

Kerry,

I deeply regret the position (attitude) that you've taken with this post.

You imply that Tom was spineless in his action. I don't believe such was the
case. However, I will raise the point that, perhaps, Tom acted in haste
before investigating further. I do believe he's aware of that now.

I also think your understanding of Public Domain is quite different from
those of us that deal with copyright or patent on a regular basis.

My first experience with something of this nature was watching my dad, and
the company he worked for, work their way through the legal entanglement to
protect their patent on what we commonly call the spin-on oil filter. 55
years ago the concept was new, patent applied for and received, and contract
put in place with Ford only to have the company "infringe". The courts did
see it another way and a small company won against the large corporate
power.

Protecting intellectual rights is the American way. It's the law-abiding,
truly patriotic, American way just as building product and selling it at a
competitive price is the American way.

Please note, however, that I'm not taking sides in this conflict, if it is
one. I'm merely pointing out one of the principles we need to abide by --
respect for the work of others and treating each other more respectfully.

We don't need another war on here. Enough have existed and driven others
from this list/forum because of the foolishness and egos of a handful of
overly enthusiastic members. Let's get on a higher road.

Byron

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 29 March 2013 16:02

> Kerry,
>
> I deeply regret the position (attitude) that you've taken with this post.
>
> You imply that Tom was spineless in his action. I don't believe such was the
> case. However, I will raise the point that, perhaps, Tom acted in haste
> before investigating further. I do believe he's aware of that now.

Email is a terrible communications medium Byron. I did not imply or say that Tom was spineless in his action. I said that it was unfortunate he did not choose to air his concerns face to face where we could have a calm rational discussion....

Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 29 March 2013 16:02

> We don't need another war on here. Enough have existed and driven others from this list/forum because of the foolishness and egos of a handful of overly enthusiastic members. Let's get on a higher road.

I agree. My apologies to the group for my contribution in stirring this pot.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Kerry Pinkerton]

[Byron Songer]

Kerry,

Thanks. Using words like "lobbing a mortar shell from behind your keyboard"
is what I was referring to. That was an implication of something and I don't
think it was an "at-a-boy".

Email is terrible at times since there is no facial expression, body
language, or verbal tone from which to judge. At times, however, it works
well if we guide in the right direction.

Byron

Kerry Pinkerton wrote:

>
>
> Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 29 March 2013 16:02
>> Kerry,
>>
>> I deeply regret the position (attitude) that you've taken with this post.
>>
>> You imply that Tom was spineless in his action. I don't believe such was the
>> case. However, I will raise the point that, perhaps, Tom acted in haste
>> before investigating further. I do believe he's aware of that now.
>
>
> Email is a terrible communications medium Byron. I did not imply or say that
> Tom was spineless in his action. I said that it was unfortunate he did not
> choose to air his concerns face to face where we could have a calm rational
> discussion....
>
> Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 29 March 2013 16:02
>> We don't need another war on here. Enough have existed and driven others from
>> this list/forum because of the foolishness and egos of a handful of overly
>> enthusiastic members. Let's get on a higher road.
>
>
> I agree. My apologies to the group for my contribution in stirring this pot.

[Byron Songer]

Note that the following is in response to the post with the subject line
that reads "Re: [GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System"

Mike,

I've finished soaking my head.

I'll continue to speak about intellectual property and the rights that come
along with it. I don't know if you've ever put in more than 40 hours of work
on developing something on your own time (not being paid by anyone else such
as an employer) only to have someone else pop up and reproduce it? If you
have, then you know about the hurt. If you haven't, then I suspect you may
possess a certain lack of understanding.

My point is broader than Tom Pryor's posting. Tom, by the way, has also
invested a significant amount of time on a similar project allowing an owner
to keep the drums on the rear. The results have been equally amazing. After
all, it's just basic physics, right?

Actually, the originator of the idea gets the credit for doing the thinking,
laying out a system, and then getting others to believe the credibility of
the development. I remember when there were scoffers who thought idea was
ridiculous. Of course, they had never slammed on the brakes or earned a good
grade in high school physics.

I'm not passing judgment on anyone regarding this issue. I just want us to
respect the work of others, give credit where credit is due, and treat
everyone in the community with respect. Is that too much to ask?

Personally, I'm getting tired of seeing so much of the "ready, fire, aim"
approach on this list/forum. We need to get away from "write, send, think",
which is another down side of email.

Byron Songer
Louisville, KY

Kingsley Coach wrote:

> Mr Pryor
>
> You are out of line..and anyone who wants to speak of intellectual
> "rights", go soak your head..
>
> There are no new ideas guys, just re-worked older ones....see Genes posting!
>
> If there wasn't so much difference between the prices, this would never be
> an issue. And why is there so much difference?
>
> Mike currently in NC

[delve]

Byron
You miss-read the soaking directions; must be underwater a minimum of 10
minutes

Regarding 'intellectual properties' starting date, , I hate to correct
Mr ERF but I remember in my youth some Japanese cycles with floating
brake backing plates.And a trailing force arm. This was around 1960
Those predated the GM engineers designing our hardware and I presume
they were well aware.
THAT may be the real genesis of the concept.

[Did you know that Detroit Electric made an all electric car in about
1910. Didn't work well then either? Same low battery range then.]
Point is , there really isn't much new.

I have squirmed on this site long enuf. Please stop this madness.
Just drop the topic and let normal order return. Stop spoiling the site.
Stop presenting a divided face to the newbies and lurking public.
And stop with the MISinformation and just plain wrong crapola. It is
just petty.

The moderator should do us all a favor and delete all the mail regarding
this topic including this one

And some of you who expressed crazy and wrong and unjustified views
should take some self-imposed time out for an attitude adjustment.

My creds are>>> 50+ years as a successful down-in-the -trenches design
engineer, with over 3 dozen patents and battle scars from lawyering up
against " intellectual property violations"]

You should remember this A patent is nothing more than a public
invitation to a lawsuit.
Nobody has rights to anything even remotely patentable in this case, and
some are arguing over nothing. We live in a free market.....so far.

George DV
beautiful upstate NY , Spring is here!
78 EL2 403
76 Glenbrook 455 HEI

I feel better now!

[Marcel Bourgon]

I think we are all getting tired of the squawking about the brake
system. Who made what and who may have copied what. If it is
copyrighted or patented then we have a bitch. If some one copied it,
that's how it is. Enough guys we have heard enough on this subject.
Marcel in New Mexico

[Howard and Sue]

My head is about to explode.
Folks its time to stop.
Have the folks involved work this out.
Okay.
Happy Easter
All is well with my Lord
Howard
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the
average voter
(Winston Churchill)

[Ken Henderson]

I'm going to make just one last, non-critical, posting on this: The Manny
Brake system accepts only the later (Post-'78) 5-1/2" pin-spacing calipers
NOT the earlier, larger (7" pin-spacing" calipers. That was an intentional
design decision by Manny so that those who already have TSM brakes
installed do not need to replace their calipers, pads, or hoses, for an
even more economical installation.

Those who want to use the earlier, larger, calipers should continue to
order from JimK, since that's what his system uses.


Ken H.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Marcel Bourgon wrote:

> I think we are all getting tired of the squawking about the brake
> system. Who made what and who may have copied what. If it is
> copyrighted or patented then we have a bitch. If some one copied it,
> that's how it is. Enough guys we have heard enough on this subject.
>

[Rob Mueller]

Ken,

IIRC those are Camaro calipers and I believe the pistons are 60mm vs 70mm Olds and 80mm Caddy.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson

I'm going to make just one last, non-critical, posting on this: The Manny
Brake system accepts only the later (Post-'78) 5-1/2" pin-spacing calipers
NOT the earlier, larger (7" pin-spacing" calipers. That was an intentional
design decision by Manny so that those who already have TSM brakes
installed do not need to replace their calipers, pads, or hoses, for an
even more economical installation.

Those who want to use the earlier, larger, calipers should continue to
order from JimK, since that's what his system uses.

Ken H.

[Ken Henderson]

Rob,

I don't know for sure, but I think for consistency, Manny's providing the
center calipers from the 79-85 Eldorado because those are the rear, parking
brake, calipers he uses. I'll try to find the boxes we unpacked Kerry's
from & check the P/N's. The important factor is that when we tested the
new installation, the front/center/rear balance seemed to be good. Since
those were with brand new pads & w/o 80mm front calipers, more testing is
needed.

Ken H.

On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Ken,
>
> IIRC those are Camaro calipers and I believe the pistons are 60mm vs 70mm
> Olds and 80mm Caddy.
>

[KB]

The mids are malibu/camaro calipers, which have the same
size piston as the 79-85 eldorado ones. All are 63.5mm
(same as in the TSM kit) and a 5.5" mounting pin spacing.

I believe the reason Manny used the malibu/camaro ones instead of
the eldorado ones is he wanted the brake line at the bottom
and the bleeder at the top. Looks like the Eldo ones have
both on the same side.

The rear eldorado parking calipers are 54mm, also same as TSM.

When combined with 80mm fronts, the front-rear balance is
close to OEM (see Frank C's article on various brake combinations:
http://www.gmcws.org/techcenter/00-08tc30.html)

Karen

[Jp Benson]

"But given time, my idea will blow away the reaction arm, but then, can i sell it???"

Miguel,

Are you planning to isolate the front & rear dual air bags and have them react independently when the brakes are applied?

JP

[Keith V]

I'm hoping for a system that has two trailing arms, not one forward arm.
That was a bad design decision.

Two trailing arms would eliminate the need for floating calipers completely and would cause the coach to squat nicely when the brakes are applied.

BIG... no HUGE task tho
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Keith V wrote on Mon, 15 April 2013 10:01

> I'm hoping for a system that has two trailing arms, not one forward arm.
> That was a bad design decision.
>
> Two trailing arms would eliminate the need for floating calipers completely and would cause the coach to squat nicely when the brakes are applied.
>
> BIG... no HUGE task tho

Yes, a BFD. basically you could mount another full bogie mount in front of the mid tire and just use the trailing arm on both. Non-trivial fabrication and with a reaction arm and tracking hardware, the additional benefit would be marginal, imo.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Rob Mueller]

Ken,

I have discussed rear brakes with Dave Lenzi and he is of the opinion the bigger the middle brakes (disk and caliper piston bore)
the better. He has Leigh Harrison's system on his Royale.

I am of the opinion that if you have enough disk / drum stopping power to exceed the coefficient of friction between the tires and
the road on all wheels without having to bust a gut stomping on the brake pedal you've got enough. The reaction arm system raises
the coefficient of friction greatly and helps in panic stops. During normal braking it doesn't do much; Manny's words.

Regards,
Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 9:28 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Too much to ask?

Rob,

I don't know for sure, but I think for consistency, Manny's providing the
center calipers from the 79-85 Eldorado because those are the rear, parking
brake, calipers he uses. I'll try to find the boxes we unpacked Kerry's
from & check the P/N's. The important factor is that when we tested the
new installation, the front/center/rear balance seemed to be good. Since
those were with brand new pads & w/o 80mm front calipers, more testing is
needed.

Ken H.

[Jim Kanomata]

If you know what we know not only engineering figures , but practical, you
know that the effect of the Reaction Arm can be felt on medium braking as
well as panic.
Again I will tell you all that I , Marc Trubert, Rick Flanagan,Chuck
Aluger, Gary Koizer. know more about the reaction arm performance than
other you want to listen to.
Chuch A got upset at one of the people on the net because he did not
understand the whole function.
There are lot of you out there that think you understand and hate me for
saying you don't.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[rick flanagan]

Hi Rob,
Early on when we were testing the reaction arm system, we created a standard to compare to by testing the same coach (mine) first with good drum brakes, then with all 6 disks. What we discovered was that during NORMAL stop and go driving, the disks appeared to give you the more stopping power then the drum brakes, but what we also discovered was that it also caused the rear tires to lock up and skid quicker.

Rick

[Rob Mueller]

Rick,

I agree.

When I first bought Double Trouble it had 6 disks, OEM GMC on the front, Caddy on the middle and rear axle. It did not have a
parking brake of any kind.

I wanted to have my Cousin in New Jersey register it for me because Texas would not issue temporary plates for a long enough period
for Helen and my tour that year. New Jersey requires a MECHANICAL emergency brake so I had Ken Frey remove the rear disks and fit
drum brakes. Before I took the GMC to the state inspection station I adjusted the brakes so the shoes just barely touched the drums,
I adjusted the cable to the emergency brake as tight as possible with the knob on the lever all the way out. When I got to the
inspection station I screwed the knob on the lever nearly all the way out. I almost got a hernia pulling the lever. The inspection
personnel drove the GMC into the station. When they got to the hand brake test I watched the guy sitting in the drivers' seat and he
too nearly got a hernia pulling the lever. When they pulled the GMC out I had passed all the tests with flying colors.

Subsequent to that I have:

1) Installed rebuilt front calipers with 80mm calipers with carbon metallic pads
2) Installed rebuilt middle calipers with carbon metallic pads
3) Installed new rear brake drums, wheel cylinders, spring kit and carbon metallic shoes
4) Installed stainless steel brake lines
5) Installed braided stainless steel flex lines to all wheels
6) Installed new brass combination valve
7) Installed new P-30 M/C
8) Installed rebuilt sensitized booster
9) Serviced the system with ATE Super Blue dot 4 Brake fluid

With this configuration I have been in situations where applying the brakes caused everything in the GMC to go flying but I've never
been able to skid the rear wheels.

I'm going to be installing new tires this year, I'll save the old ones and if I have time I'll do some testing to see how quick I
can stop.

By the way I understand how the reaction arm works and acknowledge that it is the best brake system out there.

Regards,
Rob

[rick flanagan]

Rob,
A few times with brakes that were too good,(80mm Calipers with yellow metallic pads on all 6 wheels.) and with the reaction arm installed, we were able to skid at least one rear tire at 35 mph. The stopping distances were still good, but the rear tires suffered.


After multiple tests we settled on 70mm calipers and organic pads on rear bogie wheels. We kept the 80mm calipers with yellow pads on other 4. No more skidding occurred and stopping distances were slightly improved.

Later on in our testing we started using a flower filled nylon stocking attached to a spring loaded solenoid mounted under the rear bumper and wired to the brake lights. The sock was about 10" off the pavement and because it was spring loaded the time from activation to impact was very small. We used a flower sock because we made too many stops to use anything that couldn't be easily cleaned up.

By the way, we have a lot more stop test video, but it's in Super-8mm.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

When Ken Henderson and I tested the Manny Brakes we had just installed on my coach, one of the things we did was a panic stop on gravel. Ken got out and watched as I stomped the brakes. The MID wheels locked up, the REAR wheels were almost sliding. (I've got a photo that shows it somewhere) My front brakes would not lock up but I've got brake problems and am going to a one ton on the front.

Some folks have beat the Manny Brake system up a bit because he uses relatively small rotors and calipers. In my opinion, they are sized correctly for the weight on them. I don't WANT my rear wheels to lock up and if they ever did, I'd prefer the mid tire to lock up first.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[rick flanagan]

Hi Kerry,
Yea I agree, what's important is that a reaction arm system keeps the rear tires on the pavement where they can at least supply some drag. That will happen no matter what configuration of brakes one has, drum or otherwise. More drag without skidding means your tires are not flat spotted & you stop a little quicker.


Rick

[rick flanagan]

I haven't posted on the net in a very long time, though I do love to catch up on all of you now and then. I see from this thread that there are some questions regarding stopping distances with various configurations of control arms and brakes. Maybe I can clarify at least a little bit. Back in 2011 I wrote a small summary of our brake testing that occurred over a 3 month period. Please forgive me if these are too many words for the net as I am link challenged.

May 26, 2010
By: RICK FLANAGAN

THE CHUCK AULGUR REACTION ARM BRAKING SYSTEM

It&#8217;s been brought to my attention that not enough testing performed & data presented to justify spending big $$$$ on this system. TRUST ME, THE RUBBER HIT THE ROAD. The following is a summary of the testing performed over a 3-month period. A little project history first.
Chuck Aulgur, who I&#8217;m sure you all know, had the idea that by floating the brakes on the rear bogie arms and tying them back to the frame, you could eliminate the lifting energy created by the forward bogie arms when the brakes are applied. This would drastically reduce nosedive and backend lifting, which causes the rear tires to skid & diminished braking. Chuck spent several years designing and making prototypes of his idea, some of which he presented at various rallies. (See accompanying CAD model drawing) Chuck showed his design at the GMC International Rally in Santa Rosa, California. It was at that rally that both Jim K. and Chuck tag-teamed me and I finally acquiesced to help with the design.

DEVELOPMENT STAGES:
1. Model Chuck&#8217;s current design into CAD
2. Evaluate strengths and deficiencies in the current design
3. Make new design as safe & rugged as economically allowable
4. Perform stress analysis on the reaction arms in COSMOS WORKS
5. Minimize part count
6. Perform braking tests on GMC coach
By end of August 2008 Rev 1 of the system was complete and stop testing performed. (See accompanying CAD model drawing)
NOTE:
It should be noted that SUPER-8mm video was used for evaluation & analysis and was never intended for outside viewing. One of two tapes was converted to digital and I will turn it over to Jim K. for customer viewing. CAUTION, don&#8217;t try to make sense of what you see on the video, because without all the written notes to accompany each scene, you&#8217;ll go mad. Some day I might convert the other tape to digital & edit them both down to the pertinent shots only, but that&#8217;s a lot of work.

PRINCIPAL BRAKE CONFIGUERATIONS TESTED:

70mm DISK BRAKES ON FRONT & DRUM BRAKES ON BOGIES
A total of FIVE 35-MPH PANIC STOPS were performed & videotaped. Every stop resulted in either one or both of the rear bogie tires skidding. The AVERAGE STOPPING DISTANCE was about 95 FEET. ALMOST NOT ENOUGH STOPPING ROOM.
NOTE:
For this test, we threw a nylon flower sock out the passenger window. Those measurements were relative. For the remainder of the testing we used a brake light activated, solenoid held & spring loaded arm with chock attached to the end and mounted under the rear bumper. When the brakes were applied, the taillights came on and disengaged the solenoid. The arm is slammed to the ground leaving a chalk mark. This was a much more accurate measuring system and easy to erase. (Strange dragging noise heard in videos)






80mm DISK BRAKES WITH YELLOW PADS ALL AROUND & REV 1 REACTION ARMS INSTALLED (Going for max braking)
ELEVEN 35-MPH & TWO 60-MPH PANIC STOPS were performed, some of which were videotaped.
NOTE:
The first few 35-MPH stops with this configuration had negative results, in that either one or both rear tires skidded. In one case all 4-bogie tires skidded. We found that the ride height was way too high and close to bottoming the shocks.
Once the ride height was adjusted correctly, the remaining seven 35-MPH stops resulted in NO REAR BOGIE TIRE SKID.
One 35-MPH stop caused one of the forward bogie tires to skid some. Not sure why.
The AVERAGE 35-MPH STOPPING DISTANCE was about 59 FEET.

The two 60-MPH PANIC STOPS with the above configuration caused all 4-bogie tires to skid, thus causing the rear of the coach to start to come around. NOT GOOD! NO ANTI-LOCK BRAKES HERE. (See video)
Upon evaluation, we concluded that the dangerous skid was caused by too much braking power of the rear bogie brakes. With too much grip the rear brakes locked up too soon. When the rear tires started to skid, they lost most of their drag and thus forced the forward bogie tires to work harder. They in turn lost their grip and also skidded.
We didn&#8217;t measure the distance of these stops.

80mm DISK BRAKES ON FRONT & FORWARD BOGIE WITH YELLOW PADS & 70mm ON REAR BOGIE WITH SEMI-METALLIC PADS & REV 1 REACTION ARMS INSTALLED
A total of ten 35-MPH & two 60-MPH PANIC STOPS were performed, some of which were video taped.
ALL TEN 35-MPH STOPS RESULTED IN NO BOGIE TIRE SKIDDING. One front tire chirped a couple times, but didn&#8217;t skid.
AVERAGE STOPPING DISTANCE was 59 FEET

THIS WAS OUR BEST PERFORMING CONFIGURATION & WHAT WE INTENDED TO RELEASE.
From testing, it&#8217;s possible that, even with this system, sometime you will lay down some rubber. There are too many variables such as road, tire, brake conditions & the fact that these are not anti-lock brakes.
Jim, Chuck & I had this setup on our coaches for at least 1 year with many thousands of miles on them, most while towing with no tow brake assist. Over that time I&#8217;ve gotten so used to these brakes that I don&#8217;t really think about braking any more. At the Auburn rally, when I saw that even with video no one was getting it, I made the scary decision to have people drive my coach HARD with the confidence that, then they will understand. I think they did.

We also performed five 35-MPH panic stops with the same setup above, but with the reaction arms removed. The system is designed so that, if the reaction arms fell off, the coach will still have brakes. (See video)
ALL FIVE 35-MPH STOPS RESULTED IN BOTH REAR TIRES SKIDDING. It&#8217;s easier to skid the rear bogie tires when you have good brakes & no reaction arm on them.
AVERAGE STOPPING DISTANCE WAS, I think 68 FEET.



OTHER CONFIGURATIONS TESTED:

80mm BRAKES ALL AROUND WITH YELLOW PADS & WITH REV 1 REACTION ARMS ON FORWARD BOGIES ONLY.
THIS RESULTED IN BOTH REAR TIRES SKIDDING ON ALL STOPS.

80mm BRAKES ALL AROUND WITH SEMI-METALLIC (NOT YELLOW) PADS.
BRAKING DIDN&#8217;T SEEM QUITE AS POSITIVE AS WITH YELLOW PADS, BUT WAS STILL VERY GOOD. I would have no problem using these pads.

With the camera installed on the frame, we also tested backing, tight turning and rough road driving. The reaction arms worked flawlessly. Video of one 60 MPH test on very rough road shows this.

REV 2 REACTION ARM (See accompanying CAD model drawing)
In December 2009 Jim Kanomata told me that he had a customer who wanted the reaction arm braking system, but also wanted sway bars. Oh boy, that&#8217;ll be big $$$. As it turned out, it was cheaper. I remembered that Chuck had, at one time used one of his sway bars as an arm. He wasn&#8217;t real pleased with it and later replaced it. His complaint was that the mounting brackets were too light, it bent his torque box and the 1-1/4&#8221; diameter sway bar was too stiff.
We knew we would need a custom designed sway bar for this application. We contacted some sway bar manufacturers, one of whom we selected. We gave them the motorhome&#8217;s weight, height, width and physical limitations of bar size. They calculated that, in the design I requested, we would need a total of 250 pounds per inch of deflection. Two 1&#8221; diameter sway bars with 12&#8221; long arms were specified. I believe they hit the nail on the head as my coach rides great, though I&#8217;m sure you all feel the same about yours.
Any way, the floating part of the reaction arm braking system didn&#8217;t have to change. We knew the sway bar would work as a reaction arm once we got the mounting squared away.
The sway bars are mounted to the underside of the frame using a 1-1/4&#8221; thick steel mounting block that has a large urethane bushing in the center. The slit bushing is held in by its large flange on one end, a plastic spacer and a steel shaft collar.
I have now had this configuration on my coach for 3,600 miles, many of which, while towing our Honda Fit across the Rocky Mountain States without tow brake assistance. I AM NOT ADVOCATIONG TOWING WITHOUT TOW BARKE ASISTANCE.
THIS IS THE CONFIGURATION THAT PARTICIPANTS AT THE AUBURN WESTERN STATES RALLY TEST-DROVE.
I can&#8217;t address the specifics of the brake booster, master cylinder, etc, because that is not my thing. I&#8217;ll let Jim K. address those questions.
Jim Kanomata will be posting the before mentioned videos on APPLIED GMC&#8217;s web site.

When first approached by Jim Kanomata from APPLIED GMC, I was very reluctant to take on a brake design project. Once I started looking into how it works though, my interest was sparked. It wasn&#8217;t really until we installed REV 1 on my coach and started field-testing that I became convinced that this was truly a leap in the evolution of GMC brakes. First time I hit the brakes, WOW THAT&#8217;S UNBELIEVABLE! No matter what anyone else decides, there&#8217;s no going back for me.

Thank you,
Rick Flanagan

[Carl Stouffer]

Rick,

I absolutely agree with you on the reaction arm brake system. After driving your coach (hard) at the Las Vegas GMCWS rally a few years ago, I HAD to have them. I have had the system installed on my coach for almost two years now, and I could not be happier with the brakes performance. I too no longer have to plan out every stop. If a light turns yellow as I approach, I react the same way I would in one of my cars. There is no problem stopping in a panic situation.

As an added benefit, the sway bars, connected to the torque boxes, help keep my bogies in line, kind of like the true trackers. They also enhance the stability of the ride. I have had no issues with leveling up at campsites either, as the bars are not heavy enough to restrict independent suspension movement. Kudos to you, Chuck, and Jim for bringing this system to fruition. I believe it to be the best all around option out there. I'm sure Manny's is good also, and the drum brake system HAS to be a major improvement to the original system. But the Chuck Aulgur system, using the disc brakes with the properly sized calipers and the right pads, combined with the sway bars, would be hard to beat.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Keith V]

Very interesting analysis of the testing.
Full floating calipers are completely obvious ( once you think about it ) with the forward swing arm. It's a terrible design but cheap I suppose. and it does ride well and saves space over dual trailing arms :)

Full floaters are normally used in race cars to eliminate brake torque induced suspension changes. And this application is a stroke of genius.

the implementation looks clean too, definitely on my todo list once I get the wife out on a few more trips so I can justify spending MORE money :)

--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC

[Dan Gregg]

Crap Rick, way too information for me. I skipped it. Of course I have your system on our GMC. I am more than impressed. I pray for red lights now. Makes Teri mad. She don't like yall because I no longer anticipate stops. :d She also accuses me of riding people's bumpers. Totally untrue. 8o
Dan
--
Dan & Teri Gregg
Dexter, Mo.

http://danandteri.blogspot.com/

[rick flanagan]

Teri, WE'RE SORRY. It's hard to keep a good man down?
The really great thing about a Reaction/Control Arm braking system is that they work, no matter what configuration one chooses. Thanks to creative geniuses like Chuck A., Norm J., Manny T., Jim K., Tom P. and others I hope you may all some day share the driving joy that I've had driving my GMC with great brakes. Now, for my wife and I, most of the fun of going somewhere is the drive.

Rick

[Dan Gregg]

Now, for my wife and I, most of the fun of going somewhere is the drive.

Rick

[/quote]

AMEN, You nailed it Rick. I just hate to park when we are in the GMC. We have a trip coming up in 2 weeks to the big midwest volkswagen rally in Effingham. I get so anxious I rarely sleep the night before. Guess I am a kid at heart when it comes to riding in one of these machines. Nothing traveling our nation's highways can compare to traveling in a fine tuned GMC coach.
Dan
when grandkids are in trouble the parents come looking for grandpa. Can you imagine such a thing?

--
Dan & Teri Gregg
Dexter, Mo.

http://danandteri.blogspot.com/

[Steven Ferguson]

Same here Dan. The destination never has been the trip for us.
Steve

--
Take care,
Steve

[Rob Mueller]

Steve,

So you reckon traveling in a GMC "is a trip!"

Me too! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----

From: Steven Ferguson

Same here Dan. The destination never has been the trip for us.
Steve

[Kingsley Coach]

To quote another group, "It's not the destination, it's the ride"

Mike in NS

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

[Dan Gregg]

Kingsley Coach wrote on Sat, 18 May 2013 10:09

> To quote another group, "It's not the destination, it's the ride"
>
> Mike in NS

Mike, you and Steve are correct. Most of us here on the net ride in style too. I will be the only GMC at the bug rally in two weeks. Those bus people want to hang a big vw sign on front of my coach. Ain't happening.
Dan

--
Dan & Teri Gregg
Dexter, Mo.

http://danandteri.blogspot.com/

[Rob Mueller]

Mike,

My quote was from the sixties as in "man, what a trip."

Think Cheech and Chong.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kingsley Coach
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 10:10 AM
To: Gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Introducing the Manny Brake System

To quote another group, "It's not the destination, it's the ride"

Mike in NS

[Kingsley Coach]

Rob

First I'm trying to remember the 60's.....seem to be drawing a blank ! <g>

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3

Antigonish, NS

[Steven Ferguson]

We loved every minute of it Rob.
Steve

--
Take care,

[Matt Colie]

Kingsley Coach wrote on Sat, 18 May 2013 20:28

> Rob
>
> First I'm trying to remember the 60's.....seem to be drawing a blank ! <g>

Quote...

If you can remember the 60's, you weren't a part of the 60's.

<For those in the know, we were at White Lake.>

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Mickey Space Ship Shuttle]

I think i was a hippie but i can't remember.

mickey :-)

anaheim ca. 77 magic bus

[Kingsley Coach]

Gottcha Matt...<VBG>

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS