[GMCnet] Re: Fuel injection question for those who have switched.

[Bob Dunahugh]

A list of the qualities of a carb. There are NONE.
Before 1988. The carb was king. And high mileage engines were approaching 100,000 miles. Since the changeover to EFI in 1988. 200,000 miles and up are common. Owners get all over about oil. If you want longevity. It lives in EFI.
There are some nice EFI systems out there. Vtech, and Atomic work well. Great for close to home. Just hope that they don't fail. Just outside of a town called Nowhere Villa. Because you just might spend a week there. Counting power poles. For something to do. With the GM Howell. You'll get the part that day. Or the next morning for parts. Since putting a GM/Nowell EFI on. Never had to touch it. And the tail pipe is just pure clean.
Bob Dunahugh
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[Jim Kanomata]

Bob,
You and other people that understand the True EFI system and not a
glorified Squirt Gun unit.
Knowledgeable people: Walt Halley, Tom Hampton,Ken Henderson,Randy Van
Winkle ,Fred Hudspeth and three to 400 others that are running the Howell
bases unit with the EBL ECM with GM parts.
We at Applied sell ALL the brands, but get complaints that those Throttle
units are not getting
better mileage and lot are getting less. Why, is the distributor control/
Ignition timing.
Yes, there are slightly more wires to sensors to install, but well worth
it.

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502

[Bob Dunahugh]

Milage is more in the correct timing. At various throttle position. That's my position. The EBL made the EFI even better. The short cut to destroying a good engine. Keep those junk, way out dated carbs on. That ship is sinking. Bob Dunahugh

________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 2:17 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: RE: Fuel injection question for those who have switched.

[James Hupy]

I understand the Howell system with EBL upgrade very well.
But , that being said, bolting adapter plates to a 4 barrel manifold
and then bolting a 2 barrel injector body to them, either the Holley or the
GM one just seems like we are going the wrong way. It raises the air
cleaner so it interferes with the hatch cover, and places it so far to the
rear that some serious interference issues arise with the HEI ignition cap.
And, it looks "Michael rodent" to me.
But, it runs O.K. after it is dialed in. And sensors are standard GM
items, easily found nearly everywhere we travel with our coaches, another
big plus for the Howell or the GM throttle bodies. It is a good system as
is, but personally, for me, there is room for improvement.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Jim Kanomata]

Our Kit does not mount high as we have an Adapter plate that overcomes that.
All that aside, those are minor when it comes to having full
electronic distributor control and parts availability.
You can mount those throttle body Squirt guns and have people complain
about mileage and being on side of road needing a factory part.
We have sold lot of ALL brands and type, so we do have some feel on this.
I have been playing with fuel injection since 1988 and have experianced all
the developments and utilized them on my Cad 540 with twin turbo set
up that has over 300, 000miles..

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502

[Bill Van Vlack]

James Hupy wrote on Sat, 14 August 2021 11:48

> I understand the Howell system with EBL upgrade very well.
> But , that being said, bolting adapter plates to a 4 barrel manifold
> and then bolting a 2 barrel injector body to them, either the Holley or the
> GM one just seems like we are going the wrong way. It raises the air
> cleaner so it interferes with the hatch cover, and places it so far to the
> rear that some serious interference issues arise with the HEI ignition cap.
> And, it looks "Michael rodent" to me.
> But, it runs O.K. after it is dialed in. And sensors are standard GM
> items, easily found nearly everywhere we travel with our coaches, another
> big plus for the Howell or the GM throttle bodies. It is a good system as
> is, but personally, for me, there is room for improvement.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon

So, basically, chuck a hunk of aluminum in a mill and machine out spots for four barrels that match the QJ manifold, injectors, FP regulator, IAC, and
TPS?

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015.

[Matt Colie]

OK, I am going to try again. I am in Chaumière in my back yard because we haven't had electric power for four days and the house internet is also
down because Spectrum won't put a little generator on the amplifier and won't let me run power to it......

Now, what this started out about was that I am one of a very few people that got to run the very same engine with carburetor, TBI and port fuel. The
real differences were too small to measure. Test engines are always run on the matrix was developed when they were in the phase 2 prototype stage.
So, they were all production intent parts, but hand assembled.

This means that in spite of the advantages that an ECU could provide, these improvements did not express themselves.

Now, when we put that same engine in a vehicle for driveablity testing, then things changed, but honestly, not a lot. It was not until the knock
sensor and ECU controlled distributor that real changes appeared and even then they were never seen in the test lab unless some off the wall crazed
engineer went looking for what might happen when you get to places in the A/F/T load matrix that were not well defined. Engines are largely sold on
the basis WOT horsepower, think about that. If we ran our coaches the way that engine was run on a dyno (maybe my dyno), there are two things that
would happen (if you survived), your fuel rate would be very discouraging and you would probably be in a jail somewhere. So, can an EBL ECU and
controlled spark fix this? You bet it can. A lot of this showed up in the early EPU road load testing, but the manufacturers answer was just to
adjust the tuning to the EPA driving program and call that good. A wonderful demonstration of this was a car that I owned. It was a 2.3 Thunderbird
turbo-coupe. Around town, that car was an absolute dog to drive, but get it out of the EPA driving program and it was a rocket ship. This was before
the secret modification that the engineers all knew about. (That is a two beer story all on its own.) We also owned a 2.2 minivan that wore out the
camshaft before it needed boring. If my son hadn't destroyed it with a lack of required maintenance, I might still be driving it.

An, no Bob, the longevity of the modern engines is not a result of the new controls. It is a result of the the fact that the US OEs were getting
their respective asses kick soundly by the foreign companies that paid attention to materials and a manufacturing standards. Chaumière's engine had
over 75k on it when #7 piston shed 120° of rings and this prompted me to break it open and replace the worn things. If I had had a real build book
for the engine, I could have replaced that one piston and put it back in... (Hint, I didn't)

So, why EBL, a knock senso and new distributor? She runs so well as she is with the cam recommended by Dick and a carburetor that a friend that
speaks fluent Rochester trimmed for me, that I just can bear to mess with it (and I have a limited budget). There is a knock sensor, and the wire it
lead up and labeled, I just havent done anything with it yet.

I will allow that a lot of my recent interest has been repairing the damage related to the failed control arm putting us in the ditch at 60 MPH and
the related damage. Not all of that has been managed to my satisfaction yet, but it will be. We feel we owe her that much at least.

One of my mentors along the way told that I should know that, "A waterman and his boat, they take care of each other - you know."

Matt - signing off from my person internet cafe
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[6cu...@gmail.com]

Thanks Matt for the information and the insight into the engineering world of motors. I believe if one went with EFI, sensors and veriable electronic
distributor basic drivability should improve but the same results are there with a well working carb.
1
My question came about because of our last trip, with short 14 to 17% grades, the Old Switchback (our coach) just worked its @ss off and i thought it
might be a worth while investment. It doesnt help that my navigator wife seems to be very proficiant at choosing secondary roads with BIG hills.

Being a mechanic and living by the modo that their is no replacement for displacement or forced asperation when it comes to power, i just need solid
proof that tossing 2k on the table for EFI is going to improve things.....2k, when you can wrench for yourself buys you alot of motor parts, so it
leaves me at the same point.....is it worth it when your running 9 to 1 compression, cast manifolds, small valve heads, restricted dual plane intake,
terrible intake airflow due to clearence restriction with the hatch and only a dual injector TBI?




Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 14 August 2021 20:05

Rich Mondor,

Brockville, ON

77 Hughes 2600

[Bob Dunahugh]

Matt. We need to agree. That we have brought up two angles to the same point. Materials, and oils have come a long way. EFI equipped engines. Will have cleaner crankcases, and oil. With the carb. My engine oil was black at 3000 miles. With the GM/Howell EFI/EBL. The oil is translucent at 3000 miles.. That black is a byproduct of combustion. Carbon. Carbon is also a great abrasive. Every 2 years. For the last 18 years of owning a GMC. I've used my inspection camera. To look at my pistons, valves, and combustion chambers. They became a lot cleaner. With the EFI. You can't get a tissue stained. By whipping the inside of my tail pipe. Plus. I only use ethanol gas.
(As a fun note. Interesting little facts. The Corvair engines operated better. When unleaded fuels were introduced. You can run E-85 gas in them. With a minor timing change. And a main Jet change. Some engines had 2 carburetors. Some had 4 carbs. Or a turbo. If you have an issue with one side of the engine. You can shut that side off. And drive home on the other side. It's a flat 6. The stock crank, and rods. Can run up to 8000 RPM's. And yes. I've twisted the output end of the crankshaft off a few times while shifting. The stock head temp gauge in the dash. Starts at 200. The middle number is 400. The high number is 600 degrees. My road race engines are at 173 cubic inches. Most dino runs. Come in the 240, to 263 HP. Carb. No turbo. Fun little engines. About 9 years ago. A few of us. Rented Talladega for the day. My 69 Yenko. Had an average lap speed of 142.2. At just under 8000 RPMs in 4th. Ford had that car built. Have the documentation of that.
Bob Dunahugh.
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh <yenk...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 11:33 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: Re: Fuel injection question for those who have switched.

[Keith V]

The ONLY issue with using the GM TB is the spreadbore intake it has to bolt to.
The correct fix would be a redesigned intake that took the TB directly.
There is absolutely no reason to run big/little injectors, our engines don't make that much power to need that much fuel control.
Also the stock air cleaner should be replaced, it's small and noisy. Put the Specter aluminum hat on and lower your cockpit Db esp with a remote air cleaner like the duramax unit.

________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh <yenk...@hotmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 1:25 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Fuel injection question for those who have switched.

[James Hupy]

Yes, I have done all the work arounds to jury rig another remote air
cleaner to take the place of what the factory designed for the air flow
requirements of a spreadbore quadrajet Carburetor that flows waaayyy more
air than a square bore holley. So, the stock air cleaner was entirely
adequate as engineered.
That still leaves us with a 2 barrel throttle body "mickey moused"
onto a spreadbore intake manifold with adapters and ill fitting gaskets and
lots of silicone sealer.
If you think that is an improvement over a spreadbore 4 barrel
throttle body, than I am wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[MICHAEL ORLANDI]

For those in the know, why not use the GM adaptor from the BBC truck  TBI set up . No RTV needed . Uses  hot water to help warm up and no throttle body icing. then you can use a Specter carb hat and a remote air cleaner.
Michael Orlandi 

[Keith V]

If I remember correctly, It's pretty thick and I'd rather have the spacer betwix the TB and the intake hat.
All thats needed for an adapter is a piece of 1/4 or 5/16 plate with some holes in it. I made my own. Works great
________________________________
From: MICHAEL ORLANDI <biggameh...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 11:34 AM

[Jim Kanomata]

Your coach runs low RPM and with the full electronic distributor the two
barrel does very well even with the adapter.
This is not a racing engine set up.
I believe there was a dyno run done on the unit and it surpassed the Quadra
jet as the full electronic distributor did a lot to over come the flow
issue.

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502

[Thom High]

Okay, the Howell fuel injection is the greatest think in the world, I get it. Now to anger a few, I’m using the Fitech fuel injection on 2 of my
vehicles, one being my 73 Sequoia, and have had no problems once I figured out the return line. I know I won’t be able to change anyone’s mind on
this topic, but for the cost of the Howell system, I can buy 3 Fitech complete systems.

[Jon Roche]

Fwiw. I did not buy a kit and came out pretty much the same cost of a fi-tech. Maybe a couple hundred more if I add in the tablet, and the other
bells and whistles like fuel
Pressure gauge, my Bluetooth wide band o2 and such.


--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Matt Colie]

thigh19 wrote on Tue, 21 September 2021 17:49

> Okay, the Howell fuel injection is the greatest think in the world, I get it. Now to anger a few, I’m using the Fitech fuel injection on 2 of my
> vehicles, one being my 73 Sequoia, and have had no problems once I figured out the return line. I know I won’t be able to change anyone’s mind
> on this topic, but for the cost of the Howell system, I can buy 3 Fitech complete systems.

Tom,

I'm glad that you can buy all those systems, but I have two problems.
First is that Fitech is woefully lacking specifics on the website.
While I do see a O2 sensor there, there is no indication of how it is used.
Second, there is no indication that a knock sensor is there, without the loop closure on knock to optimize timing, you do not have engine management,
just a fancy altitude corrected carburetor.

If you can think of an engine management system. If I haven't owned one, was only because my job required that I drive one the company provided.

The reason I still run a quadra-bog (as we call the early generation) is that mine works well. I rarely go over 9KMSL and it still works. Changing
out of a working igntion that reliably fires 0.065 plugs would only have charm if it could controlled by an integral and self calbrating sensor.
Sometime I would like to tell you what we did to include a working knock sensor in any engine family. It is not all that simple to include such a
thing.

Matt writing from the International

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Jim Kanomata]

Tom,
Apparently you do not know that a Fi Tec lacks Distributor control .
Same as what I ran on my cad back in 1988.

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Ladiea, I got a couple questions here. My current coach fits the MSD Atomic. It was a California coach, and I was given to believe CARB would accept
the MSD Atomic. Holley still sells them alongside the Sniper, perhaps because it's certified?
Next up, will CARB accept the Howell setup? If not, it's gonna be relegated to older coaches in California.
Next, there was and may still be an outboard timing box to use with the MSD. Would this give the same improvement as the EBL setup with the Howell?
My coach has two wideband O2 sensors, one feeding the ratio gauge on the dash and the other feeding the MSD Atomic injection. For all of Jim's
mentions, the GM throttle body is the same squirt setup as the all in one units, just differently and perhaps more closely controlled.
Now I put many miles - six digits - on a Kia with direct injection. Gave it to the kid a year ago, it's still doing well. Replaced it with another
Kia, this'n is port injected. The direct injection is the ultimate answer, as long as the proper materials are used in the engine to overcome the
lack of wet intake valve stems. The Kia was the same displacement as my Datsun cammer wagon from the late 60s. Modern manufacturing, camming, and
control give a 35% power increase in a more reliable and longer lived engine. For an eiohtfold price increase over 45 years.

--johnny

--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Jon Roche]

From what I have been told. Msd atomic is the only efi you might get by with on a california smog check. But if you get the wrong smog check even
that wont really pass as atomic is carb compliant on other applications and our motorhome is not listed. So if the smog guy pays attention you wont
pass.

As for spark control, only the gm based has advanced spark control. Used a knock sensor. And has large tables. Others such as the fi-tech, msd
all just mimic vacuum curve. Small tables.

The new sniper has larger ability for spark control. Not much been played with on that.

Just what i remember from the efi seminar at gmcmi a week ago.

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Larry Davick]

Or be a 1975 or older coach in the DMV files.

> On Oct 5, 2021, at 6:00 PM, Jon Roche <lqqk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From what I have been told. Msd atomic is the only efi you might get by with on a california smog check. But if you get the wrong smog check even

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Back in the day of email lists, I had a tagline that said 'God and Carter make good carburetors' and if I ever build up another ride with an RB engine
in it, it will get a properly jetted AFB if I can find one. However, I don't think I'd want to try to get an AFB to pkay nicely on a 455 in a GMC.
The Q-jet did fine in my 23', the MSD injection does fine in my 26'.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell