[GMCnet] Engine starts when cold, won't crank when warm
David Gardner
My engine starts when cold. When the engine is warm and I turn the engine off and then try to restart it, it acts like the battery is nearly dead. I’ve had the batteries checked at two locations and both say the batteries are good. Once the engine is completely cold, the coach starts just fine.
I recently had both the alternator and starter replaced thinking they were part of the problem (they need replacing anyway) but that did not solve the problem.
After stopping with the engine not running I get a 12 volt reading from the battery, and while the engine is running I get a14.5 reading at the battery, so it appears that the batteries are charging while the engine is running
Coach runs fine until I stop, then it barely cranks over, until it is cold again several hours later.
thanking everyone in advance for your thoughts.
David Gardner
1976 Birchaven (455 motor)
Oxnard Ca
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Wayne Rogewski
Possibly a bad cable or ground. Sounds like everything else was replaced already.
--
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
James Hupy
hands. Any hot ones, investigate further.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
Scott Nutter
I put on a new starter, and increased the gauge of wire to the starter. Both negative and positive.
That cured the problem. It seems to be a fairly common problem.
Scott
--
Scott Nutter
1978 455 Royale Center Kitchen, Quad bags.
Houston, Texas
A.
> My engine starts when cold. When the engine is warm and I turn the engine off and then try to restart it, it acts like the battery is nearly
> dead. I've had the batteries checked at two locations and both say the batteries are good. Once the engine is completely cold, the coach starts
> just fine.
> I recently had both the alternator and starter replaced thinking they were part of the problem (they need replacing anyway) but that did not solve
> the problem.
> After stopping with the engine not running I get a 12 volt reading from the battery, and while the engine is running I get a14.5 reading at the
> battery, so it appears that the batteries are charging while the engine is running
> Coach runs fine until I stop, then it barely cranks over, until it is cold again several hours later.
> thanking everyone in advance for your thoughts.
>
> David Gardner
> 1976 Birchaven (455 motor)
> Oxnard Ca
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
Billy Massey
flyweights aren't frozen in the extended position.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Billy Massey wrote:
> Ya might try retarding the timing just a bit.
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:00 PM, David Gardner wrote:
>
>> Haven’t posted in a while, but I have one that has me stumped, and could
>> use some advice..
>> My engine starts when cold. When the engine is warm and I turn the
>> engine off and then try to restart it, it acts like the battery is nearly
>> dead. I’ve had the batteries checked at two locations and both say the
>> batteries are good. Once the engine is completely cold, the coach starts
>> just fine.
>>
>
Billy Massey
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:00 PM, David Gardner wrote:
> Haven’t posted in a while, but I have one that has me stumped, and could
> use some advice..
> My engine starts when cold. When the engine is warm and I turn the engine
> off and then try to restart it, it acts like the battery is nearly dead.
> I’ve had the batteries checked at two locations and both say the batteries
> are good. Once the engine is completely cold, the coach starts just fine.
> I recently had both the alternator and starter replaced thinking they were
> part of the problem (they need replacing anyway) but that did not solve the
> problem.
> After stopping with the engine not running I get a 12 volt reading from
> the battery, and while the engine is running I get a14.5 reading at the
> battery, so it appears that the batteries are charging while the engine is
> running
> Coach runs fine until I stop, then it barely cranks over, until it is cold
> again several hours later.
> thanking everyone in advance for your thoughts.
>
diego....@gmail.com
Good luck
Rod cruzin in South Cali
Matt Colie
down, cracked the back plate off and said,"Oh God - That's not fixing here!")
Now -
While we are at it, a good battery at rest should read 12.6 with some load. Maybe 12.7 with zero load. If you don't see that, first go to a car
parts store and check your meter on a new battery on the shelf. Then, get an new battery. but the hot/cold is so reminiscent of my starter failure,
that I think that you should look there when you don't find some other answer. A starter is the only heavy spare part I carry. There is a reason.
A 10MT starter is so robust that it was used from 1956 to the late 90s. The problem is that it is Too Robust. It will keep trying when it should
have quit and gone home long before. Then the is the problem that the 10MT for the TH425 went out of production 38 years ago. You can get a rebuilt,
but don't expect it to be in anybody X-stock list. If you haven't looked into your starter recently, think about it. Changing brushes is cheap and
easy.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
KB
Seems like cheap insurance and lighter/cheaper than carrying around a whole spare starter.
Might not always be able to fix it, but a rebuild kit could keep you from being stranded
(or you could just do a pre-emptive rebuild with it).
thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 16 September 2016 19:58
> have quit and gone home long before. Then the is the problem that the 10MT for the TH425 went out of production 38 years ago. You can get a
> rebuilt, but don't expect it to be in anybody X-stock list. If you haven't looked into your starter recently, think about it. Changing brushes is
> cheap and easy.
James Hupy
It no longer is solid copper, but a cheap substitute that has a thin copper
foil like coating that will not handle the amperage loads of the starter.
It arcs off a bit of the foil coating with each use. It is staked on to the
solenoid plunger and is difficult to remove and reverse like the solid disc
can. So, definitely, the solenoid should be included in your spare parts.
Thrust washers, and brushes, as well as the bushing in the nose casting.
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
Ken Henderson
it here, we broke the starter. Cracked the bakelite housing which supports
the primary 12VDC connection. Rather than fool with tearing down one of
the old starters laying around here for a replacement housing, we took it
to the local Carb/Ignition shop. Charlie Smith, the owner, is about 65.
He started work at 17 for one of my grandfather's best friends. He now
owns the shop, piled high with old carbs, starters, generators and
alternators. He won't touch a fuel injected car, 'tho' he does do diesel
mechanical fuel injection.
We took Lou's starter to him on Thursday afternoon: "Charlie, is there any
way you can possibly get this fixed by quitting time tomorrow so we can
install it over the weekend?" "Aw man, I'm so busy, NO WAY! ... OK, have
my wife check it in and I'll see what I can do -- but don't count on it."
On the way home from lunch, we stopped at Charlie's to pick up the starter,
fixed or not. What we found was a shiny new-looking one. "It was in
pretty good shape, brushes looked real good. But one armature bushing was
worn so I replaced it. Found a near-new switch housing on an old starter.
It should work OK now..." Total bill? $22.00. :-) Good Ol' Charlie!
Ken H.
Matt Colie
> Seems like cheap insurance and lighter/cheaper than carrying around a whole spare starter.
> Might not always be able to fix it, but a rebuild kit could keep you from being stranded (or you could just do a pre-emptive rebuild with it).
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26'
The pre-emptive rebuild is really the good idea.
If you had a set of brushes and screws for same, you could probably bring a dead starter back to life.
But,
Of the two that I have seen that failed in service, they really needed the commutator trued (takes a lathe) and the front bushing changed out.
(One of those was mine and it was Sunday afternoon in BF Egypt.)
If you were wondering, the life seems to be about that of a 455 *1.25. So the simple answer would be, if you have the engine out, rebuild the starter
while all you have to do is pick it off the floor. If you are doing anything that requires getting the starter down, three little fasteners and the
back plate gets open. Look inside and see how much brush is left. If the brush arm is within 1/16 of the commutator, think about getting that taken
care of before it goes back in.
My starter that I have is fresh. I carry the known good used starter just in case some friend needs it.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Matt Colie
> it here, we broke the starter. Cracked the bakelite housing which supports the primary 12VDC connection. Rather than fool with tearing down one
> of
> the old starters laying around here for a replacement housing, we took it to the local Carb/Ignition shop. Charlie Smith, the owner, is about
> 65.
> He started work at 17 for one of my grandfather's best friends.
> pretty good shape, brushes looked real good. But one armature bushing was worn so I replaced it. Found a near-new switch housing on an old
> starter.
>
> Ken H.
Ken,
I think you know how lucky you are to have Charlie around.
I just lost my best local shop to a strip mall and the second choice shop is getting kind of shabby looking and he can't even keep a kid to do the
grunt work. I give him one - maybe two years more.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
the parts. Works like a new one.
--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
gene Fisher
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5493-gmc-cranking-improve-for-free.html
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
David Gardner
Both my batteries have been checked by two different battery stores, and they say the batteries are good.
I have just noticed that when I put my key into the ignition, and depress it slightly, I get a buzz from the battery isolator. Is this normal?
Over the last few days the coach has gone from starting when cold, to barely starting at all, to now not starting at all.
I checked and I do have voltage (12.5) going down the starter.
At the moment I am only getting a click when I turn the key to start the engine. Batteries are still showing 12.5 volts when I check the battery with the volt meter.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 eleganza 2
Seattle
On Sunday, September 18, 2016, David Gardner <mr.g...@twc.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all for your suggestions. They were all greatly appreciated. I
> have checked all my battery connections, and everything looks good.
> Both my batteries have been checked by two different battery stores, and
> they say the batteries are good.
>
> I have just noticed that when I put my key into the ignition, and depress
> it slightly, I get a buzz from the battery isolator. Is this normal?
>
> Over the last few days the coach has gone from starting when cold, to
> barely starting at all, to now not starting at all.
> I checked and I do have voltage (12.5) going down the starter.
> At the moment I am only getting a click when I turn the key to start the
> engine. Batteries are still showing 12.5 volts when I check the battery
> with the volt meter.
>
>
> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:00 PM, David Gardner <mr.g...@twc.com
Ken Henderson
When you say you have 12.5 VDC at the starter, is that with the starter
activated? Otherwise, it's a virtually meaningless number. It's the
voltage under load that's important, and it must be measured at the battery
cable BOLT on the starter -- NOT at the cable end.
I've seen two instances within the past 6 months, one of them my own, where
similar problems were due to battery cables which were apparently good, but
the end terminals did not make perfect contact with the cable itself. In
one instance, there was smoke from the terminal while cranking. The other
terminal pulled off under severe manual twisting -- revealing severe
corrosion. New cables cured both problems.
Ken H.
Ken Burton
voltage at the battery when you are trying to start it? What is the voltage at the small terminal on the starter solenoid when you hear the clicking.
If the voltages at the starter are good, and the voltage on the small terminal on the solenoid is very low or bouncing around, then Jim Hupy's
previous suggestion here of a bad ignition switch is the most probably cause. It could also be a bad neutral safety switch, but odds are it is the
ignition switch.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Jon Roche
what you describe, just sounds so much like battery cable/battery problems. Or even the starter. my experience, is my GMC cranks over pretty well
at any temp. I have a rebuilt starter from a old time auto electric rebuild shop. good battery, and I have replaced the cables with some heavy awg
cables, with the hot lead from the starter going directly to the starter. However I also did this 5 years ago now, and I learned last trip, I had
corrosion that caused an issue on the house bank. So even if you think it is good, check, clean those connections. No reason your engine should
not spin over well. when I had my starter rebuilt, it was cranking, but when I got it back, it was spinning double the speed.
I have seen plenty of battery tests done and passed, and the batteries were still garbage. Especially when it comes to temperatures.
You can bypass your isolator to take that out of the system, to make sure you do not have some other goofy short robbing power from the starter.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
J Artz
switch feed wire to the starter. Would start fine cold, but once it was nice and hot, nothing. The automatic cars have the starter on the back of the
engine, under the exhaust manifold so plenty of heat there. Sticks never had the problem, the starter is on the front side.
The fix was to put a relay under the hood, using the original ignition switch feed wire to activate it. Run a new wire from the relay to the starter,
and feed the relay directly from the battery.
A quick and easy way to check for this is with a remote starter switch. One clip to the battery cable at the starter, the other to the ignition switch
start terminal. That bypasses the whole ignition switch circuit.
--
John in Omaha
74 26' Sequoia
Jim Kanomata
It's great to get feedback and new ideas from people that have been on the
line.
Should you get a chance to show us how we might be able to make the
modification, it will be very helpful to the community.
Since 1980 I have seen lot of great information applied to the community
from people that have been on the front line and know their "SHEET" get us
helpful information and ideas.
I know there are lot of you out there, and I encourage them to help us.
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
J Artz
starter circuit from the ignition switch runs all over, some of it in very hot areas. This shortens the current path immensely. Here's a simple
diagram I found online. The terminal numbers are all German style wiring codes, but the diagram gets the point across :
http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/rootesrefuge/media/Mobile%20Uploads/BoschWR1Diagram_zpsisvpqq0g.jpg.html
Essentially functions the same way a remote starter switch works. Or for that matter, like the old screwdriver across the starter terminals trick. A
weatherproof relay like a fog light relay, or even a Ford style remote solenoid would work fine.
--
John in Omaha
74 26' Sequoia
Richard Cockrell
I’ve been storing my 1976 Palm Beach for a number of years waiting for good time to start on it. It started last year no problem.
This year, I turned the key and heard absolutely nothing - fresh batter and the lights in the cab work and there seems to be power on the big red wire to the starter.
I assume that is the solenoid was good, I’d hear the clicking noise. Since I hear nothing, so I assume that means there is a broken connection from the batter to the solenoid or the solenoid is bad. Is there anyway to tell? I dropped the starter and put 12 across the S and power terminal and grounded the case. The started jumped, it seems good to me.
Can I buy the solenoid separate from the starter? Any thoughts?
Thanks Much, Rich - Mpls.
Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
or disproves the starter.
--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
Richard Cockrell
> On Sep 19, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Richard Cockrell <racoc...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
> I’ve been storing my 1976 Palm Beach for a number of years waiting for good time to start on it. It started last year no problem.
> This year, I turned the key and heard absolutely nothing - fresh battery and the lights in the cab work and there seems to be power on the big red wire to the starter.
>
> I assumed that is the solenoid was good, otherwise, I’d hear the clicking noise. Since I hear nothing, I assume that means there is a broken connection from the battery to the solenoid or the solenoid is bad. Is there anyway to tell? I dropped the starter and put 12 across the S and power terminal and grounded the case. The started jumped, it seems good to me.
The ignition seems to turn a little short too.
Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
solenoid clicks. If 12V on the small wire gets no results, take your ohmmeter - battery disconnected - and measure from the small terminal to the
case of the starter. Should read fairly low resistance - couple or three ohms. If it's high, the solenoid coil is open.
Matt Colie
>
>
> > On Sep 19, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Richard Cockrell wrote:
> >
> > Hello:
> >
> > I've been storing my 1976 Palm Beach for a number of years waiting for good time to start on it. It started last year no problem.
> > This year, I turned the key and heard absolutely nothing - fresh battery and the lights in the cab work and there seems to be power on the
> > big red wire to the starter.
> >
> > I assumed that is the solenoid was good, otherwise, I'd hear the clicking noise. Since I hear nothing, I assume that means there is a broken
> > connection from the battery to the solenoid or the solenoid is bad. Is there anyway to tell? I dropped the starter and put 12 across the S and
> > power terminal and grounded the case. The started jumped, it seems good to me.
>
> The ignition seems to turn a little short too.
> >
> > Can I buy the solenoid separate from the starter? Any thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks Much, Rich - Mpls.
Yes. solenoids for Delco starters are easy to get. They were the same from 1956 to 1995. The only change being that they dropped the P pin with the
introduction of HEI.
It seems you have proved that the starter motor is good.
While it is on the bench, Undo the connection to the actual motor (that little copper strap) and put 12V to the S pin.
If you feel the solenoid "CLUNK" that is probably not your problem.
You might just unroll a wiring diagram and crawl under the steering column and check that you are actually hitting the start switch. This is a very
common problem and it can be as simple as the switch out of adjustment on the column, or the mechanism in the column is shot. (Still not a big deal
if you are Chuck Boyd.)
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
gene Fisher
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6460/start_switch_talk.pdf
An come to the GMCWS rally for your free tap
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
gene Fisher
read here
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6460/start_switch_talk.pdf
And come to thr GMCWS rally to get your free tap
On Monday, September 19, 2016, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
David Gardner
Thanking everyone again for your thoughts and suggestions.
Regards
David Gardner
1976 Birchaven
Oxnard Ca
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:00 PM, David Gardner <mr.g...@twc.com> wrote:
>
> Haven’t posted in a while, but I have one that has me stumped, and could use some advice..
> My engine starts when cold. When the engine is warm and I turn the engine off and then try to restart it, it acts like the battery is nearly dead. I’ve had the batteries checked at two locations and both say the batteries are good. Once the engine is completely cold, the coach starts just fine.
> I recently had both the alternator and starter replaced thinking they were part of the problem (they need replacing anyway) but that did not solve the problem.
> After stopping with the engine not running I get a 12 volt reading from the battery, and while the engine is running I get a14.5 reading at the battery, so it appears that the batteries are charging while the engine is running
> Coach runs fine until I stop, then it barely cranks over, until it is cold again several hours later.
> thanking everyone in advance for your thoughts.
>
> David Gardner
> 1976 Birchaven (455 motor)
> Oxnard Ca
>
>
Gary Bovee
Glad you got it figured out. I am looking forward to seeing you again at Coos Bay.
Gary Bovee
Red Bluff, CA
1978 Royale
www.gmcidiotsguide.com
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