[GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara

[Betty Chimento]

While visiting Alex & Lori, Alex Ferrara corrected our steering issues. We had to wrestle with the coach all over the road. He said the steering was 90 degrees off. He jacked up the front, put jack stands underneath. He accidentally bumped one of the stands & it moved. The coach on that side was several inches above the that stand. So it was like on 3 legs.

Thank You Alex Ferrara. We can drive it with 2 fingers. It's a dream.

Besides that, the hospitality was fantastic.

Looking forward to Montgomery.

Bill & Betty Chimento
Diamondhead, MS
78 Eleganza Clasco
Dixielanders
Sunshine Statesmen

Sent from my iPad
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[Skip Hartline]

Could you or Alex explain in a little more detail so that my dense powers of understanding can grasp what he did?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Thanks
Skip Hartline

[Carl Stouffer]

Kudos to Alex :) I don't know him but I have heard that he is a VERY helpful and knowledgeable guy. He helped a Phoenix couple that I was acquainted with that had the same problems on their way to Florida.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Robert Mueller]

Betty,

Since I couldn't find anything wrong other than the tire pressure in your GMC was at 80 psi when I checked it last year I am REALLY
interested in finding out exactly what Alex found and what he did to fix it.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "He said the steering was 90 degrees off" and "The coach on that side was several

inches above the that stand. So it was like on 3 legs."

I tried to call Alex but he's not answering his home phone, do you happen to have his email address or cell phone number?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Chimento

While visiting Alex & Lori, Alex Ferrara corrected our steering issues. We had to wrestle with the coach all over the road. He
said the steering was 90 degrees off. He jacked up the front, put jack stands underneath. He accidentally bumped one of the stands
& it moved. The coach on that side was several inches above the that stand. So it was like on 3 legs.

Thank You Alex Ferrara. We can drive it with 2 fingers. It's a dream.

Besides that, the hospitality was fantastic.

Looking forward to Montgomery.

Bill & Betty

[Betty Chimento]

Alex said he went to a Steering Session by Dave Lenzi & follows his instructions.

Sent from my iPad

[Betty Chimento]

Alex said he went to a Steering Session at one of the rallies by Dave Lenzi & just follows his instructions.

Bill & Betty Chimento
Diamondhead, MS
78 Eleganza Clasco
Dixielanders

Sunshine Statesman

Sent from my iPad

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I think I know what Alex did re the steering but the 3 leg bit still has me puzzled.

I tried to call him at around 9:00 pm but he had gone to sleep, evidently he follows Ben Franklin's adage of; "early to bed, early
to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise."

I'm normally up until 00:30 - 01:00 which speaks volumes about my health, wealth, and wisdom! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Chimento

Alex said he went to a Steering Session by Dave Lenzi & follows his instructions.

[Emery Stora]

Rob
I believe he was talking about when he jacked up the front end. One side lifted from the jack stand when he jacked up the other side.

Emery Stora

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I just got off the phone with Alex and what he found was that the steering box was not on center, it was off by 90 degrees. He
removed the steering CV joint and lower steering shaft (slip joint) and set the box on center. He then re-installed the CV joint and
lower steering shaft and aligned the front wheels.

The jack stand moved when he hit it with his leg because the rear suspension in Bill and Betty's coach is not operating properly.
One side was higher than the other. He instructed them to inflate the bags and bring both sides to the same height and shut off the
bags.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

[Brian Waddell]

I would like more info on this....can anybody elaborate...thamks briam 78 ele 455

[Brian Waddell]

how does a persom knpw that the steering box is off 90 degrees...And do not tell me it is because it doesn't steer properly...brian 77 ele 455

> From: robmu...@iinet.net.au
> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:18:34 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>

[Robert Mueller]

Brian,

When the front wheels are heading straight down the road the steering box must be on center or a GMC will not steer properly. See MM
X-7525 / Section 9 - Steering System / Page 9-38 PITMAN SHAFT "OVER-CENTER" SECTOR ADJUSTMENT.

More information can be found in the documents below:

http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Mueller_Steering_Inspection_Guide.pdf

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Waddell

how does a persom knpw that the steering box is off 90 degrees...And do not tell me it is because it doesn't steer properly...brian
77 ele 455

[Matt Colie]

USAussie wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 01:54

> Brian,
>
> When the front wheels are heading straight down the road the steering box must be on center or a GMC will not steer properly. See MM X-7525 / Section 9 - Steering System / Page 9-38 PITMAN SHAFT "OVER-CENTER" SECTOR ADJUSTMENT.
>
> More information can be found in the documents below:
>
> http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Mueller_Steering_Inspection_Guide.pdf
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Waddell
>
> how does a persom knpw that the steering box is off 90 degrees...And do not tell me it is because it doesn't steer properly...brian
> 77 ele 455

Brian,

Look specifically at Figure 64. After you have looked at what Rob pointed you to, go out and look at the shaft into the steering box. If that flat is not where it belongs at straight ahead, then the steering box is not at center and that only makes all the difference in the World as far as going straight down the road without wandering.

How does this happen??
In instrument talk, it is called a cascade mis-alignment. Something is wrong, and someone that does not completely understand the system tweeks something to make it closer to correct. Unfortunately, he tweeked the wrong thing, so the next guy that has to make it right tweeks something else without running the complete system diagnostic. So, now it is close, but two things are actually wrong.

I have seen this happen in front end alignment. (No Joke) In fact the old VW bugs only had one adjustable tierod. The shop manual said, set the toe-in, and if the steering wheel isn't straight ahead, pop it off and put it back so it is......

In a GMC, this is a disaster in the making. If you pop your horn button out (if you can) and look at the top of the steer columns shaft, there should be a chisel mark at straight ahead. If it isn't there, (mine wasn't even close) then someone disassembled the stuff below and didn't get it right. Between the slip joint and the CV there are a lot of combinations (you old guys that took mechanical drawing, remember all the angle combinations and permutations you could get with just the 45° and 60° triangles?? Same-Same) There are lots of ways this can be assembled, and most of them are wrong. But, When you finally get it right, it will work fine.

Now you need to dial in the rest. If you have an adjustable drag link. Use it to set the relay rod so the the relay level and the idler are both square to the frame. Now, don't readjust anything you have just set.....

Do what ever needs to happen next - toe or straight ahead with the tie rods only.... This Works.....

The longer story is how I took up Dave Linze's afternoon while he told me all this and by the way, I didn't buy anything from him. (I keep telling him that I still own him a good dinner.)

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic, once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[John R. Lebetski]

Also besides all that it the scribe mark on the shaft at the steering wheel is not at high noon, your turn signals will never cancel correctly and you can break the switch if you try to force the lever. Lot's of wrong permutations and only one is correct. It's tough to look at the steering box pinch U joint and get a good read on where the flat is as it does not match the split or bolt. If you have a 100% correct coach parked next to you, you can get a pretty close idea from an A/B comparison.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Brian Waddell]

nothing new there for me....brian

> From: robmu...@iinet.net.au
> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:54:42 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>

[Robert Mueller]

Brian,

I must apologize if you understand all the information provided below and you noted "do not tell me it is because it doesn't steer
properly"

I don't understand what kind of response you expected.

I'd be happy to help if you could explain your question a bit more.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Waddell

nothing new there for me....brian

[Brian Waddell]

Yea......... well... I have been through thar flat part at sreering shaft....only makes sense ...that is why only particular size bolt fits.....just to be sure you got it correct you can place the slip joint in all possible combinations like I did then drive it...wanders down the road worse in some combo.s the same in others....yea rely arm and lever square or not...yea tried them both ways...little difference....chisel mark at steer wheel...yea... tried that in 4 dif positions then back to noon....no dif... when I gave up last fall the consensus was steering box that I find hard to believe on a 54k doc. mi coach....I hate to do that because to me that is jyst replacing something to see if the problem goes away....no evidence that it is out of spec....I had this coach 12 years and hve never used it mostly because i can not steer it....I replace and rebuilt most everything ...then discovered that I can not use this coach cause I can.t fix the steering ....so far...it has become a bit of a family joke...we call it the POS.....brian 77 ele 455....winnipeg near


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7...@gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 13:56:49 -0600

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[John R. Lebetski]

Assuming you have shaken down the front end steering wheel to front wheels and have no slop? No delay on box from input to output? What are your allignment number specs? All greased? My box had a slight wobble on the input shaft and everything else was tight or replaced. I put in a variable ratio box and made sure it was on center. Drives straight hands off. 4 deg caster and no camber or toe.

--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Brian Waddell]

yes ....from the steering wheel.... althoughI have not been to that steering knucle yet under dash..next job...no ...no delay, been to front end shops 2...they find nothing loose ...have installed offset bushings tried different spec max caster 5....0 camber ...toe in 1 deg... no toe...lots of grease....looked at bogies nothing there...new relay no dif new shocks tires rim sno dif spacers no dif...took apart ...put back together....no dif...brian 77 ele 455


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: gran...@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:31:26 -0600

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Brian Waddell]

forgoytto mention that I need to replace steering shock absorber in case there is a bend in the old one...binding? that was another thing emory told me about last year...brian

[Hal Kading]

Brian,

Your reply to Rob "I have been through that flat part at steering shaft....only makes sense ...that is why only particular size bolt fits." suggests a misunderstanding of which flat is related to the high point in the steering box. The indexing of the spline and clamp as determined by a drill bit (29/64" IIRC) is important at the top of the box. The high point flat is on the output shaft at the side of the box where the pitman arm attaches and should be parallel with the machined flat on the side of the box.

I hope this helps.

Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM

[A.]

Brian Waddell wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 20:49

> yes ....from the steering wheel.... althoughI have not been to that steering knucle yet under dash..next job...no ...no delay, been to front end shops 2...they find nothing loose ...have installed offset bushings tried different spec max caster 5....0 camber ...toe in 1 deg... no toe...lots of grease....looked at bogies nothing there...new relay no dif new shocks tires rim sno dif spacers no dif...took apart ...put back together....no dif...brian 77 ele 455

I think I remember seeing some of that dialog.

I don't remember your responses to the questions about ride height (is it set correctly?), weight distribution (is all of the weight being carried on one front wheel and the diagonally opposite rear wheels?), rear wheel alignment, camber, caster and toe, bogey pin and/or wheel spindle slop, tire inflation pressures, type of tires (most people have better luck with polyester sidewalls, but one member says his handling improved when he installed steel sidewalls).


--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
UA (Upper Alabama)
CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to service.

[Brian Waddell]

yea.. i meant to say only one size BIT fits properly and if you can not get that size in then it is not mated correct...thanx...your last sentence makes me pause....can you say this any other way....thanx brian


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: halk...@fastwave.biz
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:21:06 -0600

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Brian Waddell]

yes ride height corrected then tried different heights and tire pressure on new bfg 16 inc then went with the book ride height.....bogies seem good no play....brian


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: mar...@netzero.com
> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:27:31 -0600

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Sean Kidd]

Brian Waddell wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 22:51
> ....

> >
> > The high point flat is on the output shaft at the side of the box where the pitman arm attaches and should be parallel with the machined flat on the side of the box.
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Hal Kading

I'm a little confused with this last statement...which shaft needs to be aligned with the machined surface? Don Wirth's document states "input shaft" ?..Hal states "output". Or is my coffee not working this morning :roll:

--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms,
Fluorescent Mineral Capital of the World, New Jersey
[img]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/5SecondsApp.gif[/img]

[Sean Kidd]

So it looks like I'm about 30* off? (Calibrated eyeball)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/image121.jpg

--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms,
Fluorescent Mineral Capital of the World, New Jersey
[img]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/5SecondsApp.gif[/img]

[Robert Mueller]

Sean,

Nope.

The bolt is not what has to be parallel to the steering box adjustment cover mounting surface; it is the flat spot on the shaft that
needs to parallel.

Check Figure 64 - Stub Shaft Alignment in MM x-7525 - Section 9 - Steering - Page 9-39.

This picture shows the flat spot on the spline:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to/p40152-steering-002.html

This picture shows the relief for the bolt on the spline:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to/p40154-steering-003.html

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----

From: Sean Kidd

So it looks like I'm about 30* off? (Calibrated eyeball)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/image121.jpg

--
Sean

[John R. Lebetski]

To put it another way--- if by eye the bolt or split line up with the box flat it is WRONG. If you have a lower joint to inspect off the coach you will see why as to how it is made.

--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Sean Kidd]

based on the one image, it seems that the flat is almost 90*...so i'm WAAAAAy off...

--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"

Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, Huber TB (soon), 3.70:1 FD(soon)

[img]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/5SecondsApp.gif[/img]

[Matt Colie]

Sean,

Thank you,
I stole your image to try to make the point clearer to others. (I don't think it is 30°, but it is still not good.)

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/1860/Steering_gear_set-up_wrong_.jpg

This picture assumes (you remember that word?) that the bolt is parallel to the flat. Mine was assembled a tooth off. (Yes, some cretin had to hammer the fastener through and mess up the threads, but he got it together - Wrong !!

This shows what has to be lined up. I did it be clamping a long tool bit to the flat, but anything straight would work. The I got out lots of steel and clamps and found a way to lock the pitman arm to the frame while I spent another couple of hours trying out combinations to get the chisel mark on the shaft to be where it belonged.

Emphasis!!! NONE OF THIS IS DIFFICULT.
However, it is essential.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic, once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Sean Kidd]

Thanks Matt, however this still contradicts Rob's post and associated image, I could be as much as 90* since the flat looks perpendicular to the bolt ...

--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, Huber TB (soon), 3.70:1 FD(soon)

[img]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6323/5SecondsApp.gif[/img]

[Ken Henderson]

To keep his rebuilt steering boxes on center for delivery, Dave Lenzi has
made (and I've copied) a little angle bracket which is secured to the box
by "bolts" into the otherwise vacant hose ports. With a tab at a 90* angle
at the proper location and of the correct length so as to rest on the input
shaft flat, the device prevents the shaft from turning off high spot. I
made mine so that the tab rests as close as possible to the box, allowing
me to start the coupling onto the shaft before removing the device.

If you make one, be very careful to make the end of the tab absolutely
parallel to the flat which rests against the side of the box (where the
ports are to secure it). And that the tab is exactly the right length to
rest against the flat on the shaft without allowing the shaft to turn.

For the securing "bolts", I turned flats on the underside of some flare
nuts, and turned the "inner" ends off enough to prevent them from seating
on the inverted flares inside the ports. I don't know what Dave uses.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Matt Colie wrote:

>
>
> Sean,
>
> Thank you,
> I stole your image to try to make the point clearer to others. (I don't
> think it is 30°, but it is still not good.)
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/1860/Steering_gear_set-up_wrong_.jpg
>
> This picture assumes (you remember that word?) that the bolt is parallel
> to the flat. Mine was assembled a tooth off. (Yes, some cretin had to
> hammer the fastener through and mess up the threads, but he got it together
> - Wrong !!
>
> This shows what has to be lined up. I did it be clamping a long tool bit
> to the flat, but anything straight would work. The I got out lots of
> steel and clamps and found a way to lock the pitman arm to the frame while
> I spent another couple of hours trying out combinations to get the chisel
> mark on the shaft to be where it belonged.
>
> Emphasis!!! NONE OF THIS IS DIFFICULT.
> However, it is essential.
>
>

[Alex Ferrara]

my wife and i almost sold our coach for the same reason we could not keep it on the road - after spending about $7500.00 on the front end (new everything) i was told that's how they drive and i said gm would not put a a coach on the road if it drove like this - and by chance we met dave lenzi i went to his seminar - i told him i will try it when i got home and if it did not work i would give the coach away - when i got home we unloaded the coach and i went to my shop - i did just what dave lenzi said to do and guess what could it have been that easy again thank you dave lenzi in the last 4 years i have found 10 more coaches like mine they are all fixed now and they now are happy campers and yes you can tell just by looking down at the input shaft on the steering gear and tell if it is off - any going to texas gmci i will look for you

[Matt Colie]

SeanKidd wrote on Mon, 10 March 2014 12:03

> Thanks Matt, however this still contradicts Rob's post and associated image, I could be as much as 90* since the flat looks perpendicular to the bolt ...

Sean,

As much as it pains me to say so, Rob could be correct. I thought I remembered the fastener being on the flat. But, I just went and looked and it sure isn't. That means your box is way off the high spot. So, start there.....

Matt - Just took on enough water to check the system out

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic, once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Robert Mueller]

Matt,

Hey you bein' a smart a$$ - what do you mean "Rob could be correct?" Of course I'm correct, I was only incorrect once and that was
when I thought I was wrong!

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

The reason I created a separate message to take photographs of the input spline is so we can verify that the bolt relief is 90° from
the flat.

It is not possible to see the flat when everything is assembled but the bolt is and maybe we can come up with a quick and easy way
to check the position of the flat and it's relationship to the aluminum steering box cover mounting surface using the bolt. It would
be added to the Steering Check posted on the GMCES website.

Regards,
Rob "big fan of Sheldon Cooper" M.

Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: Matt Colie

SeanKidd wrote on Mon, 10 March 2014 12:03
> Thanks Matt, however this still contradicts Rob's post and associated image, I could be as much as 90* since the flat looks
perpendicular to the bolt ...

Sean,

As much as it pains me to say so, Rob could be correct. I thought I remembered the fastener being on the flat. But, I just went and
looked and it sure isn't. That means your box is way off the high spot. So, start there.....

Matt - Just took on enough water to check the system out

Matt

[Robert Mueller]

Alex,

I believe it is safe to assume that after 40 years the numbers of coaches that have had the steering box (gear), slip shaft, and/or
CV joint replaced by mechanics that had NO idea that they had to be aligned correctly is HUGE!

I'll bet dollars to donuts that there are a HELL of a lot more coaches out there that have this same problem!

It's kind of embarrassing to me that I didn't think to check for this in Bill and Betty's GMC! I won't make THAT mistake again!

Regards,
Rob M.

Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

[Hal Kading]

Brian, Sean and others confused by my statement

"The high point flat is on the output shaft at the side of the box where the pitman arm attaches and should be parallel with the machined flat on the side of the box."

You should by now recognize I didn't know what I was talking about. It should have read:

The high point flat is on the input shaft at the top of the box, and should be parallel with the machined flat on the side of the box. It is not parallel with, or at right angles to the clamp bolt.

It appears this has been an educational discussion, hopefully for more than just me.

Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM

[KB]

argh, now I'm even more confused. Looking at our two coaches, the clamp bolts at the input shaft are in different places, so I assume this means at least one of them is wrong. I don't know which though.

Does this picture help any?:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to/p40160-steering-006.html

thanks
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

Yes, with the wheels pointed straight ahead the clamp bolts should both be the same.

Yes, the photo helped, I have edited it to try and show the relationship between the clamp bolt and the spline flat:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p53560-steering-box-flat.html

I am going to post this response under the Topic: Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft

Let's continue this discussion under that Topic as it will be easier to find later on.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: KB

argh, now I'm even more confused. Looking at our two coaches, the clamp bolts at the input shaft are in different places, so I
assume this means at least one of them is wrong. I don't know which though.

Does this picture help any?:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to/p40160-steering-006.html

thanks
Karen

[Brian Waddell]

well that is interesting....I will be going, down under ,in the coming days...I have also been told that is how they steer by front end truck experts....told them to f off ...no manufacturer puts out a vechicle that steers this way...they argue ,,,i get mad...then I refuse to pay the bill after that comment...brian


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: lmeye...@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 06:59:44 -0500

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Brian Waddell]

Ok...Now I will hve to study this propisition...takes me some time to get at the job ...thanks brian 77 ele 455


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: halk...@fastwave.biz
> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:50:11 -0500

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Robert Mueller]

Brian,

Perform the steps detailed in MM X-7525 / SECTION 9 - STEERING / Page 9-38 / Pitman Shaft "Over-Center" Sector Adjustment.

Followed by:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html

If you don't follow both these procedures step by step you're just pissing into the wind!

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

[Matt Colie]

Brian Waddell wrote on Tue, 11 March 2014 18:16

> well that is interesting....I will be going, down under ,in the coming days...I have also been told that is how they steer by front end truck experts....told them to f off ...no manufacturer puts out a vechicle that steers this way...they argue ,,,i get mad...then I refuse to pay the bill after that comment...brian

Brian,

I wish you lived close enough to get a chance to drive our coach. You would understand why my wife likes to drive.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES Going to MontgomeryThe majestic, once snow covered glacier Chaumière is in for the winter.
'73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Brian Waddell]

Ok that is good advice...over the winter I have collected advice such as following this procedure and others including your compilation which I implemeted last year..didn't help..at that time.....thanks ...Brian

[Brian Waddell]

wow...that is someting....of the maybe 25 miles we have driven the coach....a couple miles at a time...my wife refuses to watch the road a it scares her ....the wandering....brian


> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 18:40:59 -0500

> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara
>
>
>

[Robert Mueller]

Brian,

Unfortunately the Steering Inspection procedure was put together before I was aware that mis alignment of the components between the
steering box and the end of the steering column could cause a steering problem.

All my questions regarding your problem is because I want to update it to include a quick check to determine if the steering box is
on center with the wheels pointed straight ahead.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426



-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:41 AM
To: gnmc list
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara

Ok that is good advice...over the winter I have collected advice such as following this procedure and others including your
compilation which I implemeted last year..didn't help..at that time.....thanks ...Brian

[Brian Waddell]

Ok...I do not think you are there yet....at least i am not....brian

[Robert Mueller]

Brian,

Correct, I'm still working on it!

Not to worry once I git it figger'd out I'll update the procedure!

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Waddell

Ok...I do not think you are there yet....at least i am not....brian

[Alex Ferrara]

It's easy to fix once you understand how it is done - but on the other hand if you don't understand how it is done you will never fix it - anyone going to texas rally that has a steering issue and needs help look me up and i will try to help you understand - i have fixed a few coaches at rallies i can tell just by looking under the hood at the bolt that holds the slip shaft to the input shaft - another person called me last night to thank me on how his coach steers down the road - he said to me i don't drive it anymore it goes down the road by itself i just rest my hand on the steering wheel he could not thank me enough - i just say go thank dave lenzi he's the one that showed me

[Jim Bounds]

I said   I was not going to get involved but having lurkers and others think there is only one magic bullet to EVERY front steering issue is unrealistic, stop that.  You have a process you do that has seemed to work on some coaches, great I'm happy for you but you do not see the huge pile of problems we do.  You cannot fix rotted control arm bushings with filing a steering gear part!  Like seeing aliens, looking into slot machines to visualize the mechanism, having luck follow you wherever you go and always fix something with a wiggle of your nose is silly and self centered.  Reality does not work that way, there is no substitution to fixing things other than working the problem.
 
This net is great for an exchange of idea, when it gets in the realm of blinly trusting ones word it is not helping
 
Jim Bounds
-


________________________________
From: Alex Ferrara <lmeye...@aol.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:32 AM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara

[Brian Waddell]

a voice of reason....thanks....now i am not so pissed off..Like jim says I must reattack the problem systematicly like he would do, and discover wherein lies the issue...thanks Brian

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 06:40:29 -0700
> From: gmc...@yahoo.com
> To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org

[Alex Ferrara]

i never said there was a magic bullet to fix steering issues on a gmc - just pointing out there are many coaches on the road that the steering gear is not installed correctly - they are almost 40 years old and many people had their hands in them and when you bring your coach to a expert gmc repair facility they should know what to look for i have found about 10 coaches with the same problem and they all have had a expert shop work on them the owners have spent thousands and sill had the problem - i now can tell if the gear is in wrong just by looking and the experts should know what to look for - i don't wish to hurt any ones feelings so i don't say too much - this is a club lets help each other

[Jim Bounds]

There is a great deal to getting a good steering situation than just alighning the gear box center to center.  Until everything is right the end result will not come.  If you have fixed that many coaches with simply aligning the steering box it means there were other things done before that lead up to the end result of changing the box to fix it.  Taking credit for fixing the problem but only involving your work on the last step, everyone must remember all the other work that was done.  Downing the shop that did the previous work is not fair, it's a process and until you see the process to the end you cannot expect complete results.  Having people think it's that "magic bullet" (you are saying aligning the steering box IS a magic bullet.  Saying it is and that fixes all is the unrealistic part.  There is a group of people who will not follow through to the end of an issue looking for the quick fix.  We are not working on late model vehicles,
there can be a cascade of issues each preventing positive results.  The best anyone can expect is a shop that will keep working the problem  If the customer will not allow this to happen, is it the shops fault they were not allowed to bring the project to it's inevitable positive end?
 
And is it appropriate to support those that support you?  There is a value in having a shop there willing to help coach owners.  If you circumvent that, not supporting the lagitimate specialty dealer network, they will not be there one day when you may need them.  While doing stuff for free for people may be exciting once, one day you will be tired of messing around with these, the dealer will be gone and the community will be the one who looses.  It all creates ill will and bad feelings.  No one here are idiots, we all are committed and have invested in trying to keep these classic machines on the road but the dealers need the owners support, not pull customers away from the dealers but support the relationships of dealers and owners.  You say something bad or cheat a dealer you really cheat yourself.
 
I do not live in plausable deniability world, I do things that make logical sense and work hard to keep on track, I do not try hail Mary moves to fix things, I take is slow and easy.  If someone says to me they "fixed it" it's not good enough to just know that-- I wanna know why.  Progress does not happen by the wave of a wizards stick and there are no unknown truths.  Toutng snake oil and questionable processes does not help matters, knowing why things happen and trying to not let them happen again makes things better.  You cannot be an island, support those that try and support you!  Knocking the last person who did something just because you think you know better is unprofessional.
 
Jim Bounds
----------------

[Charles Boyd]

Sir another place to look for loose motion is inside the steering column at the tilt joint. It is common for the spring in the nylon joint to rub a groove in the steering shaft. You can remove the nylon joint and flip it 180* and it will put the spring on a new surface and take the loose motion out of the joint. Do not flip the steering shaft, just the joint.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/s-10-steering-wheel-caddy-conversion/p47387-gmc-steering-knuckle.html



Brian Waddell wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 11:04

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[Billy Massey]

Jim

Alex didn't start this. He was praised by relatively new owners for finding
the problem that finally allowed them to enjoy their coach. He is to be
commended for his knowledge, service, and willingness to share with the rest
of us. I greatly appreciate his reminding us of this particular problem
area and raising a flag for us to pay attention.

We all understand that there is no magic bullet where steering systems are
concerned but where all else has failed on this particular coach, (and
evidently several others) he happened upon the final problem item. He'd
surely be my "White Knight" also if I'd spent big bucks and time without
satisfaction.

No animosity intended or deserved
bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 8:17 AM

There is a great deal to getting a good steering situation than just
alighning the gear box center to center. 

... snip ...

[Jim Bounds]

While I appreciate your comments and overall I agree.  I guess you will need to know page 2 of the story.  Jeff Sirum and I are both here in Florida, both members of the Sunshine Statesmen and both GMC specific dealers trying to cater to the community.  Most of the club members have supported Jeff in the past, most new owners, not members, looking for restorations come to me.  It works fine because Jeff is there to support the members.  We work very hard to keep patching member coaches up but sometimes they need more.  Then we dig into 30+ year old steering issues and it can get involved.  We change out many parts, not all so it becomes a process-- change the ones you see are really bad, try it then go after more.  It would be great to do what you should and just go after all of it but the fixed income owners don't want to do that.  In that case they must understand it's going to be an ongoing test to see if "as far as we went" does the
trick.  Many times it works while other times it takes continued investigation.  These people get yancy so Alex tells them to come to him.  He may fix something which causes the customers to think Jeff & our efforts are worthless, this is simply not true.  If they would have let us do what we know to do it would have been fixed but they don't follow through.  He does nothing to support Jeff other than buy parts which really is a poor substitute for support so what's going on is causing issues in the club.  Alex charges nothing, where would you go?  I personally don't care, most don't come to me anyway and I'm fine with that but what he is doing is effecting our community.  My customers know it's a process but others may not.  This is why I say taking credit for making a coach steer by doing the last process in line does nothing to recognize the other tall work that was done.  I do not want folks to forget there is more to it than aligning
the steering box.  This is why I say don't forget it's a process and you must stay on target to get there.
 
Just like buying parts from Rock Auto instead of Jim K. hurts the community in that Jim K. needs the support.  Dealers also need support in labor.  Alex is taking lagitimate business from Jeff, if you owned a sub shop and there was a guy in a food truck parked in your driveway giving away subs, would you be upset?  You may think this is a help to the community, the reality is it is not.  Many locals look at me as expensive-- I will not replace only 2 spark plugs, I replace 8, put in new plug wires, cap & rotor because they all wear.  I look at it as thorough.
 
If everyone will just remember repairing these coaches is not just finding a bad part and replacing it.  There is more to it than that so again-- don't look for a mahgic bullet, it takes more than that and don't forget it's the total vloume of replaced parts and checks that makes things work in the end.
 
Jim Bounds
-


________________________________
From: Billy Massey <bd...@wtconnect.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:34 AM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Corrected by Alex Ferrara

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Jim, unless you're going to open shops across the country, you can hardly whine about folks doing their own work or helping others, regardless if it is for money or free. It doesn't make sense to or haul a coach a thousand miles or so to North Cuba. In this case, Alex was in Arizona, the Chimentos were in Arizona. Do you really expect that we take all our work to the 5-6 shops in the country and get in line with the previously scheduled work?

Sorry, but it's not about supporting the community, it's about pure common sense. I buy a lot of parts from Jim K, and have purchased from you too. If I was more local, I might have yall do some work but it doesn't make sense to drive 500 miles, leave the coach for ???, and come back and get it so you guys can install 8 sparkplugs or something. If we're talking about a paint job or new interior, engine, etc, it's a different story. But you asking for folks to order something available on the shelf at Advance, wait a week for it to arrive, and then pay shipping across the country just ain't gonna happen. Although I just ordered some tie rod ends from Jim that I could have gotten overnight at my Son's Advance store for less money. Didn't need them right away and Jim's putting them in the crate to Montgomery.

If the community didn't want members to be able to buy locally, why is there a parts list? Does the idea of folks doing work at work rallies like Bean Station, take food out of your mouth too? Of course it does but that is just the way it is. If everyone that had a GMC only took it to the 4-5 shops that support the community, you'd be backed up for 20 years and there would be about 100 coaches on the road instead of the thousands there are today.

I've seen you post several times how much work you had backlogged. I don't really understand your angst over this. I applaud Alex for helping the Chimentos. If it wasn't for this community sharing skills and knowledge, I'd not have a GMC and you'd have missed out on that big profit for the new fuel line I ordered from you. :d
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Ken Henderson]

That is outrageous.

This from GMCNet.org, the "home" and genesis of this forum:

*GMCnet* exists for the purpose of exchanging information and promoting
discussion about the motorhomes manufactured by General Motors Corporation(GMC)
from 1973 to 1978. Discussion about all aspects of the GMC Motorhome and
the mutual interests of their owners is encouraged.

I see nothing in there about promoting the commercial interests of anyone,
nor any restriction on the sharing of information or experiences with
anyone's GMC.

Most of us recognize the importance of supporting those who support us.
But, we do not need that imperative pounded into us, especially by the
beneficiaries of our business. And it does neither you, nor anyone else,
any good to antagonize us by ridiculing anyone, especially someone who
generously tries to help other GMCers. Without people like Alex, many GMC
owners would quickly become former-GMCers, and the community would more
surely shrivel than if there was no GMC Coop. Especially when, as you
admit, you cater to those who have the wherewithall to pay for whatever
they want/need done. And you can't even argue self-defense: I've read
EVERY posting to GMCNet for months without ever seeing a comment that "I
came away from GMC Coop with an empty wallet and sorry steering and Alex
fixed their screw-ups." Never seen it. Have you? Or do you have a guilty
conscience?

I hope no one is going to contribute their complaints about anyone, because
this is not the place for that -- our policy HERE should be, "If you can't
say something good, don't say anything." Now if someone opens a complaint
forum, I'm sure there would be a deluge of them against EVERYONE.

Jim, you owe all of us, but especially Alex, a SINCERE apology for that
unwarranted tirade.


Ken Henderson

Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Jim Bounds <gmc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> While I appreciate your comments and overall I agree. I guess you will
> need to know page 2 of the story. Jeff Sirum and I are both here in
> Florida, both members of the Sunshine Statesmen and both GMC specific
> dealers trying to cater to the community. Most of the club members have
> supported Jeff in the past, most new owners, not members, looking for
> restorations come to me. It works fine because Jeff is there to support

> the members. We work very hard to keep patching member coaches up butsometimes they need more. Then we dig into 30+ year old steering issues

> and it can get involved. We change out many parts, not all so it becomes a
> process-- change the ones you see are really bad, try it then go after
> more. It would be great to do what you should and just go after all of it
> but the fixed income owners don't want to do that. In that case they
> must understand it's going to be an ongoing test to see if "as far as we

> went" does the...

[Alex Ferrara]

thank you to the people that stood up for me - i don't wish to make any trouble please let JIM BOUNDS post what he wants ---- JUST THINK IF EVERY PERSON IN THE WORD HELPED THE PERSON NEXT TO THEM WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE TODAY

[Alex Ferrara]

Woe is me [message #207226 is a reply to message #205813 ] Thu, 09 May 2013 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Lee is currently offline Jeff Lee
Messages: 40
Registered: January 2013
Member

So here we were in Texas, at the hilltop RV park in Ft Stockton and our coach leaks quite a bit during a brief rain storm, and then 2 night later in Pensacola when thunderstorms decided to visit. Needless to say, it was not pretty. On top of all our driving woes, now our coach starts leaking like a sieve. Water is dripping from both our closed fan vents, but it is pouring in like a full on faucet from the top of our dinette window. We started bailing and after about 10 minutes of trying to catch the water in bowls I figured if I angle the coach it would help, and it did - we finally got to sleep that night with just dripping instead of flooding.

We are ready to abandon this piece of crap. The floors are sloshing, everything is soaked, I can't keep it on the road and every mile is a white knuckle experience.

Mary Kay posts on facebook about our frustration, and I respond to a mail from Lori and Alex. Bottom line, Alex says "come here and I will fix your coach"

So we alter our plans and head to East Florida and 2 days later around noon we pull into Alex's garage in Palm Coast.

Alex spends a second looking it over and determines the issues, and goes to work. Now for those that don't know Alex, he is a perfectionist. There is nothing worth doing, that is not worth doing right.

He cleaned, dried, and special epoxied the seams where the gutters are attached, took off the vents which were sloppily sealed and sealed the underneath and around and by 5 pm we were on our way to his house where he cooked us a great home made italian veal dinner. That night we parked in his driveway and it poured. We anxiously watched and waited - Not a drop entered the coach - hooray!

Over the next 4 days Alex fixed a myriad of small and large issues on our coach. Gas pedal, closet, emergency brake, gas leak and on and on. I will get into some detail on a few because I think it may help others.

Our door required slamming to close and even then only closed sometimes. Alex welded the pin, which had an imperceptible movement in it. It now closes like a cadillac door with the push of a finger. Hard to believe that little movement caused such issues.

But the BIG, BIG thing of course was the drivability.

He replaced my almost new steering box. Somewhere along the line someone had over-tightened the fine adjustment screw and basically ruined the box. This was the cause of all the play that I had in my steering, when the box was replaced, all the play went away. He also replaced a worn relay arm, and then aligned the coach the old fashioned way. The alignment had been done incorrectly by the vendor I used in Phoenix. Alex measured, adjusted and aligned. We drove it and let the coach relax into its new settings, he measured adjusted and aligned, and repeated the process for a half dozen times. Each time it drove better.

We drove the 300 miles from Alex's to Ft Lauderdale yesterday. There was a heavy wind, the road for half that distance is under construction and in horrible shape constantly rocking our towed mini. I drove the entire 300 miles, including in rush hour traffic, including changing lanes, passing ONE HANDED at 65 (I was afraid to go over 50 before)

So many thanks to this saviour on the highway, a chance encounter in Texas, that is now a good friend. A generous soul with so much knowledge that he is willing to share (unlike many)

Our heartfelt thanks and friendship go out to Alex and Lori, who opened their home to us, helped us, fed us, fixed a dozen things on our coach, and wanted nothing in return.

Alex is on the blacklist in Northeast Florida. If you are in this area and need assistance you will find yourself in no better hands

We love this GMC community! and now we even love our coach again:)

Jeff Lee, Mary Kay Forrer, and Maxi (aka Devil Dog)
Gypsy Rose - 1977 Kingsley
towing a 2010 mini S
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[Alex Ferrara]

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Re: Woe is me [message #207298 is a reply to message #207226 ] Fri, 10 May 2013 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Galbavy is currently online Jim Galbavy
Messages: 779
Registered: August 2007
Senior Member

Jeff,

Alex and Lori (and Martini) are great folks. I proud to call them friends. If you are having GMC problems and Alex is around, you are in good hands. He asks for nothing but helps anyone with a problem. He helped us out when the cap on my power steering box cracked while we were in the Keys during a rally. We couldn't find a cap or even a good box but Alex was able to talk a NAPA out of a defective box for the price of his core charge. 30 minutes later we got the caps swapped and the fluid changed. He got me out of a mess and wouldn't take anything even dinner. .....so I pass the favor ahead when I find someone who needs a hand. Alex and Lori are what GMCers are all about.

jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL

[Alex Ferrara]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Alex's bumpers. :)


Ken H.

On, Apr 29, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Jeff Lee wrote:

>
>
> So here I am driving east on I10 just left Ft Stockton in the rear view
> mirror, when a silver bullet appears next to me, honks its horn - meep,
> meep, and like the roadrunner takes off down the road like a bat out of
> hell. It was 100 yards ahead when by the time it sunk in that it was a GMC.
> It quickly disappeared down the road ahead. In a few miles there was a rest
> area, where we pulled off, to find that it had pulled in also.
>
> Our long lost new friends were also headed to Florida, and are blacklist
> members Alex and Liz. We spend a while gabbing and gawking at their "oh so
> clean and customized " 23 footer. Alex took care of a few problems on my
> coach, we exchanged contact info and we took off with a promise to meet in
> Florida, or as it turns out the next rest area.
>
> Anyway, they are great, very helpful, and very nice people and we ended up
> staying at a KOA and having dinner together.
>
> btw, Alex affirmed the gas leak is a bad valve in the fill connection.
>
> Rob, thanks for the offer, we will probably pass though Houston on
> Wednesday but seem to be okay for now- things change quickly however:)
> __________________________________________

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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach

[Alex Ferrara]

and after i made jeffs coach drive safe i sent jeff to alex sirum gmc and jeff spent over $3000.00 there so i do try to help every one even jeff sirum plus i buy parts from jeff sirum