[GMCnet] Air bag replacement choices

[Rick Drummond]

I'm looking for opinions about replacement options for the rear suspension. My couch has the original style air bags, I don't know the age or condition of the current bags and I would like to be able to use my GMC this summer with confidence that I will make it from point A to point B. Now considering that I also have the expense of replacing all the tires this year and I'm not independently wealthy (bummer!), what is my best choice of action with the rear suspension?

Rick

Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert
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[James Hupy]

Rick, examine existing tires for edge wear and/or cupping. If either
exist, you need to check the rear suspension for worn pins and bushings,
worn out shocks, rear wheel bearings and brakes. If you put new tires on
worn out suspension, your new tires will soon look like your old ones. If
your old tires are just worn or aged out, then just repack the rear wheel
bearings and check the brakes. Don't forget the parking brake cables either.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 gmc royale 403

[Dennis Sexton]

RicksGMC wrote on Mon, 25 March 2013 18:42

> I'm looking for opinions about replacement options for the rear suspension. My couch has the original style air bags, I don't know the age or condition of the current bags and I would like to be able to use my GMC this summer with confidence that I will make it from point A to point B. Now considering that I also have the expense of replacing all the tires this year and I'm not independently wealthy (bummer!), what is my best choice of action with the rear suspension?
>
> Rick
>
> Rick&Tammy Drummond
> Prior Lake MN

Start with assessing the condition of existing air bags.

Pull them off, install a fill valve, inflate just enough to unfold them. Submerge each end in a bucket of water to check for leaks. A leak on the inlet is not uncommon and is usually just the o ring.
Next use mild dishwasher soap like Ivory and a tire brush and give them a good scrubbing.
With the road grim off look at the wear where the bag folds back at the edge of the cone -- the rubber is just a protective coating so checking and even some chafing are to be expected. If you see the cording -- not so good.
Now look over the cones and smooth down any roughness in the aluminum. If they are plastic -- come back and maybe someone has some aluminum for you.
If the bags have any bow to them -- hot-dogging -- reinstall with the bow down.
Now make up one or two emergency air bag replacements per Gene's site and go use the coach.

Dennis

--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN

[A.]

RicksGMC wrote on Mon, 25 March 2013 18:42

> I'm looking for opinions about replacement options for the rear suspension. My coach has the original style air bags, I don't know the age or condition of the current bags and I would like to be able to use my GMC this summer with confidence that I will make it from point A to point B. Now considering that I also have the expense of replacing all the tires this year and I'm not independently wealthy (bummer!), what is my best choice of action with the rear suspension?

>
> Rick
>
> Rick&Tammy Drummond
> Prior Lake MN
> '74 (re)Painted Desert

If you need to replace them, the lowest priced options are the MonoBags from Jim K http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1037 and the SullyBilt kit from Todd Sullivan http://www.bdub.net/sully/
The Firestone bags that you have to buy sepearately and install with the SullyBilt system have a stop at the bottom that restricts its downward range about a half inch less than OEM, which may or may not keep the wheel from dragging the wheel well on 73 and 74 models if it deflates while in motion.
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Camping
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
UA (Upper Alabama)
"Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."

[Carl Stouffer]

The above is all great advice. I'm with Dennis on this one, inspect your present air bags first. You might be able to get several more years out of them. There is a date code on them:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/3619/Airspring_datecode_e_1_.pdf

Jim Bounds told me they should last 15 - 20 years, maybe longer. What I am going to do is save up for the Jim & Jim Quadrabag system:

http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/684

I think the consensus here is that this is the premium system.
--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[gene Fisher]

and here they all are
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/5471/Airbag_Systems_Comparison_-_Sheet11.pdf

at the bottom is a link to the newest info

gene

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Peter Bailey]

Gene,
Don't see the Sully bag on the list you provided?
Did that come along later or is there another reason for it not being listed.
Thanks
Peter Bailey
from Ozy (Aussie)

[gene Fisher]

sorry, the picture is out of date.

here is the link to the comparison, spread sheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsEWkMLsSGYOdGhtejZVby1fSG5qUkZRT3BsTFNwcXc&hl=en_US#gid=0

or

http://goo.gl/Izuxx

and here is the bdub link to Sullys info
http://www.bdub.net/sully/

I should have used this link for Andrews comparison spread sheet in my
message

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/air-bag-systems/p41622-andrew-s-air-bag-com.html

thanks for the catch
gene

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Randy]

Quote:

> If you need to replace them, the lowest priced options are the MonoBags from Jim K http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1037 and the SullyBilt kit from Todd Sullivan http://www.bdub.net/sully/
> The Firestone bags that you have to buy sepearately and install with the SullyBilt system have a stop at the bottom that restricts its downward range about a half inch less than OEM, which may or may not keep the wheel from dragging the wheel well on 73 and 74 models if it deflates while in motion.

The Silvertone or mono bag that Jim K sells also have a stop. I ran mine all the way down and the tires do not contact the wheel well.
--
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ

[Todd Sullivan]

Carl,

If you mean premium as in most expensive I would agree. Does the Quadrabag out perform a good single bag system in ride/ safety/ simplicity/ and longevity?

Show me the data

Can you retain one of your original bags for a complete spare for either side of your coach if you have the Quadrabag?

Can you "isolate one of the rear wheels and continue on with your journey after a tire or airbag failure" with the Quadrabag?

Show me the data

Can you install the Quadrabag in your driveway by yourself with tools commonly available in most households without having to.....

Spend close to $1000 more than a hellforstout single bag system?

Dismantle your rear suspension to the frame?

Add INCREASED complexity to your rear suspension with its pneumatics and mechanical construction?

No


If your original system works and holds air you are probably ok to travel with it. If your airbags look bad but still function you MIGHT be just fine as some terrible looking bags appear to live on much longer than their appearance might suggest. If your airbags cause YOU to worry because of how they appear to YOU, replace them and forget them with the system of your choice. Peace of mind was what it was all about for me. My original airbags worked fine but looked untrustworthy to me and after much research and a bright idea from Mark G I ended up developing the Sullybilt system. Some here believe that the best solution to a problem is the most expensive and complicated one. Take a look at the handful of systems out there and find the one that will give you peace of mind and allow you to focus on the reason you purchased your coach to begin with. In my case that reason is to travel.

Sully
77 royale
Seattle



Sent from my iPhone

[Carl Stouffer]

sgltrac wrote on Tue, 26 March 2013 07:27

Todd,

I did not mean to insult you or your Sully-Built single bag system. I think it is a great system to replace the stock set-up. I was there at Shawnee when you installed the system on Mac's coach and I was very impressed with it. As you pointed out, I used the word "premium" rather than "best". I did that for a reason, as it is rather subjective.

I have very limited experience with the Quadrabag system, having only ever driven two coaches that were so equipped, and only for a short distance. I an told by those who have it that the ride IS more stable, and the consensus seems to be about 10 to 1 that it rides as well as, or better than the single (stock) bag system.

Jim Bounds says that you CAN isolate one bag and continue to a safer location to make repairs, and has done it. Obviously you can't retain one of your old bags to replace a blown one, but they are relatively inexpensive and readily available.

When I do the changeover, I plan to do it, in my driveway, by myself, with the tools I have on hand. I am told it is an easy job (although certainly not as easy as yours).

As I stated, I will run my 4 - 5 year old original style bags for a while yet, but when I DO change, it will be to the Quadrabag. Just what I will do.

[Jerry Wheeler]

To add to the conversation and Sully's "show me the data or results", I can
only add that I took a demo ride in Harrison's coach way back in 1998 at
the Dixielander's Bean Station rally; Harrison purposely ran his coach off
the payment a number of times and it did not "jump" the way my coach did
when I accidently slipped off the pavement on narrow roads and came back
onto the pavement. He took a tight "S" curve; a "built for construction"
crossover between a separated 4 lane road, with a speed limit of 35 mph, at
55 mph. I thought he was going to roll the coach and I grabbed the bottom
of my seat figuring we were going over, but the coach leaned very little.
I was impressed and knew someday I would buy this system. I picked up the
4 bagger sold by JimK. From my personal experience, my coach handles
those road edges and cornering much better than the OEM bag system. FWIW.

JR Wheeler 78 Royale NC/OR

[Dwayne Jacobson]

Here's my story with the 4 bagger on our Eleganza. Had it installed by Jim
K and then proceeded to our home some 950 miles.

It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the one bag was soft. The one
air hose fittings was cracked (the aluminum insert in the brass fitting
cracked)
so this didn't hold air. The one tire was worn - I believe due to the way
the coach rode mostly on the one bag. The compressor had to be going most
the time trying to fill the one bag.
End of story is that for the majority of the trip I was running on one
filled bag and one partially filled bag.

Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock
77 Eleganza - 4 bagger
77 Kingsley - OEM still

[sgltrac]

No insult taken Carl.

The reason I posted those questions about the Quadrabag system is because when I asked them before on this forum they went un answered. Jim Bounds claimed that carrying a spare is no longer necessary and that any one of the now independent rear bogie arms can be "isolated" to permit travel with a destroyed tire and or airbag if you have the Quadrabag rear suspension. I asked specifically how this was accomplished and all I heard were crickets. Looking at the system I cannot see how this is possible without installing other parts. If it is possible then I think it is an incredible benefit of the system. The quality of construction, engineering and lack of problems down the road speak to the success of the Quadrabag system. I do not think anyone on this forum would claim that it is not a great system but I would like to see performance claims such as the above explained or demonstrated before people remove their spare wheels from their coach.

Still hearing nothing but crickets.
--
Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.

[Carl Stouffer]

sgltrac wrote on Tue, 26 March 2013 09:38

> No insult taken Carl.
>
> The reason I posted those questions about the Quadrabag system is because when I asked them before on this forum they went un answered. Jim Bounds claimed that carrying a spare is no longer necessary and that any one of the now independent rear bogie arms can be "isolated" to permit travel with a destroyed tire and or airbag if you have the Quadrabag rear suspension. I asked specifically how this was accomplished and all I heard were crickets. Looking at the system I cannot see how this is possible without installing other parts. If it is possible then I think it is an incredible benefit of the system. The quality of construction, engineering and lack of problems down the road speak to the success of the Quadrabag system. I do not think anyone on this forum would claim that it is not a great system but I would like to see performance claims such as the above explained or demonstrated before people remove their spare wheels from their coach.
>
> Still hearing nothing but crickets.

I suspect Jim Bounds will get wind of this thread and respond, although I think this has been covered here before. A search will probably turn up something.

That said, I have no intention of EVER removing my spare tire. I LIKE having 6 wheels on the ground and wouldn't even think of ditching my spare.

I think this all comes down to personal preference.

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Rob Mueller]

Carl,

Below is some info I put together awhile back.

Operating a GMC on less than four rear wheels/tires

Reference: GMC Motorhome Operating Manual X-7821A page 1.

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) represents the maximum permissible loaded weight of the vehicle.

26 foot GMC GVWR = 12,500 lbs

GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) the maximum weight that the axle can carry.

26 foot GMC GAWR

GAWR = 4,500 lbs Front Wheels

GAWR = 8,000 lbs Rear Wheels

Reference: http://gmcmotorhome.info/tires.html

Tire Load Range: The max load a tire can carry and the pressure required to carry that load.

D load range max load @ 65 PSI = 2,235 pounds

E load range tire max load @ 80 psi = 2,680 pounds

Reference: Alcoa Light Truck, SUV, RV and Motorhome Wheels Fitment Guide

http://www.southwestwheel.com/pictures5/LTFitment-Screen_10-18-01.pdf

P/N: 160231
Style: Classic
Max Wheel Load Pounds: 2780
Capacity ratings as dual or single in highway service - bias-ply or radial

P/N: 160251
Style: LTS 5
Max Wheel Load Pounds: 2440
Capacity ratings as dual or single in highway service - bias-ply or radial

P/N: 161251
Style: Hot Shot
Max Wheel Load Pounds: 2780
Capacity ratings as dual or single in highway service - bias-ply or radial

The weight distribution per tire would be dependant on the how much pressure was supplied to the air bag supporting the remaining
tire. For ease of calculations we'll divide the rear GAWR of 8,000 lbs as noted above by four which results in a load per tire of
2,000 lbs. Operating the GMC with one wheel removed the load on the remaining tire would double; going from 2,000 to 4,000 lbs. This
is an overload of 1,765 pounds (~79%) on a D range tire at the maximum pressure of 65 psi and an overload of 1320 pounds (~49%) on
an E load range tire at the maximum pressure of 80 psi. If the tires are not inflated to the pressures noted the overload would be
even higher.

If you drive your GMC with less than four rear tires supporting the load you WILL be operating the GMC with OVERLOADED TIRE(S) and
OVERLOADED WHEELS!

Regards,
Rob

[Thomas Phipps]

OEM 16" steel rims are manufacture related at 2,440 pounds. While I believe that one could operate the coach, with a 4 bag system with 3 wheels on the ground in the rear, I believe that I will keep my spare.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion, under forever re-construction
Vicksburg, MS. 3.7 miles from I-20

[Carl Stouffer]

Rob,

I have seen that information before and am well aware of the potential overload condition. That is why I would NEVER run on three back wheels, EXCEPT under emergency conditions, and then only far enough to get to a spot where I could change the wheel (or airbag) safely.

[Kosier]

Well, in answer to the questions. Yes, I'm probably the only person to find
a way to waste a bag on a Quadra-Bag. I don't know I did it, but I did. We
isolated it and blew the tire and other airbag up to carry
the load. Drove it around the parking lot and decided that I wasn't in that
much of a hurry. JimK was on the road with his inventory of bags, so I
called Tom Hampton. He overnighted the bag and it was
there at ten in the morning. I changed it in the parking lot of a truckstop
with the tools I had by myself. Piece of cake. Pumped it up and went on
our way.

Gary Kosier
77 PB & 77EL2

[Randy]

If you want a system you can swap out easier than changing a tire, I'd go with the Silvertone/Monobag from either Jim K or Southland RV. Wait a minute, I did!

--
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ

[LW]

With the Quadra bag systems, can the coach be raised and lowered by the same amounts (approximately 4 inches up or down) as could be done by the OEM single bag system? I can see how the Quadra bag would provide a slightly stiffer suspension, but I'm more interested in the ability to adjust the height with the Quadra vs. the OEM single bags.

[Carl Stouffer]

lw8000 wrote on Wed, 27 March 2013 10:15

> With the Quadra bag systems, can the coach be raised and lowered by the same amounts (approximately 4 inches up or down) as could be done by the OEM single bag system? I can see how the Quadra bag would provide a slightly stiffer suspension, but I'm more interested in the ability to adjust the height with the Quadra vs. the OEM single bags.

My understanding is that the Quadrabag system DOES allow full up and down suspension travel. That is a concern of mine as well, since I often park on out of level surfaces. I have used the full travel on my original type air bags several times and still not gotten perfectly level.

http://www.gmccoop.com/new_4_air_bag_system.htm

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Dwayne Jacobson]

Hi
I am going to add my Nickels worth (our penny is now on the way out as the
DoDo Bird)

When my one bag was not holding air (due to the brass/alum insert fitting
that was cracked) I thought so if I were to need a new bag
where would I get it from. I contacted several trucking supply places here
in Metro Vancouver and only one place said they could get one for me.
Not is stock but would come from Quebec in a few days. So there went the
idea that these are readily available at any truck stop - maybe in the
Lower 49th but not up here. Just saying. . .

Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock, BC
77 Kingsley OEM BAgs

77 Eleganza - 4 bagger

On We

[Todd Sullivan]

According to the comparison chart the Quadrabag system has an identical operating height range as the oem

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Rob Mueller]

Carl,

Your comment makes sense to me.

The reason I put the wheel and tire load info together is because someone here provided anecdotal information noting that they
"heard" of an owner that drove over 200 miles on three wheels safely and I felt it would be a good idea to provide the wheel and
tire load data so an owner considering doing so could make an informed decision whether or not to do so.

Tom,

Thanks for the info on the steel wheels I will add it to the info.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Stouffer

Rob,

I have seen that information before and am well aware of the potential overload condition. That is why I would NEVER run on three
back wheels, EXCEPT under emergency conditions, and then only far enough to get to a spot where I could change the wheel (or airbag)
safely.

Carl S.

[Carl Stouffer]

Rob,

That person might have driven over 200 miles on three rear wheels, but it wasn't "safely". :d

You're absolutely right that those conditions would overload the tire/wheel combination. It MIGHT work though. I just wouldn't trust it for more than a few miles.

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Carl Stouffer]

Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 26 March 2013 10:38

Rob,

FYI, The Eagle (Lug centered) wheels that I have on the rear of my coach (about three years old) have a cast in rating of 2600# and a 60 psi max pressure rating. I run mine at 65 psi, but I would be reluctant to run them at 80 psi, the max pressure for a LR-E tire. The 80 psi would ne requited to attain the max weight rating of a 225/76R16 LR-E tire, of 2680#

[Carl Stouffer]

My apologies to Email readers, I should have proof read before I posted.

[Wayne Lawrence]

H i Carl,

That 65 psi rating is for seating the tire bead. It is safe to run 80lbs in the wheel.
--
Wayne Lawrence
76 Birchaven
Bellflower CA
way...@ca.rr.com

[Carl Stouffer]

Wayne wrote on Wed, 27 March 2013 18:52

> H i Carl,
>
> That 65 psi rating is for seating the tire bead. It is safe to run 80lbs in the wheel.

Thanks Wayne. Good to know. :blush:

--
Carl S.
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.

[Jim Bounds]

I'm back from Dothan & first wanted to thank everyone for helping me while there.  We had all sorts of things going on, would have had more but just felt we had done enough.  Got back early to be sure Janie & her family were OK, thanks to all also for their concern.  All is good, I actually stayed the last 2 nights at the shop in JayGee while Janie's family stayed at her Mom's.
 
OK, so I've had 2 people post me parts of this thread about air bag choices, especially the one where "Sully" got a little poinient about his system over the quad bag syste,  Guess those folks who made me aware of Sulies comments felt I needed to know about that-- and you know how I am passionate about what I feel, while I'm happy Sully is also a passionate person please do not mistake passion on something as a statement of fact on how well that system stacks up.  Like someone "dissing" your college ball team-- I'm not looking to promote the Gators over the Chemson Tide and all but I will tell you in answereding Sullies rant on how good his system is and how "overpriced" the quad bag system is----:
 
As a great poet once said on Saturday Night Live-- "Jane, you *&^%$ $#%*"----- The quad bag system costs more money for a very good and simple reason---IT'S BETTER!  "Give me data", I don;t need to show data though there is, you can blow an air bag or tire-- you can blow 2 air bags and/or 2 tires and still drive!  That is so much a fact there is no need to debate thaty.  4 years ago (Sully, you were not even on the scene at that time) going to the Dothan rally back then, one of the coaches in the Sunshine Statesmen convoy ended up blowing 2 tires (were over 10 years old) aqnd we got him motivating without a jack, without replacing a tire and everyone in the convoy watched it happen.  I did a talk the very next day with pictures and explained how it all went down.  There is nothing to debate here-- it not only worked, it worked well!
 
All we used were 2 wood blocks (2x6) and pulled the tire still holding air up on them where the other tire was taken offwith no fuss.  So it has been totally proven the quad bag system offers features no other system can and they are features no one has ever had, things that make your life better and after you have them things you cannot live without!!
 
Next, after installing the system, the bags can be replaced with common off shelf bags from Firestone, Goodyear, Continental or Air lift-- they all fit so as far as a universal replacement it is.  The bags used are THE most common air bags out there.  This is a fact, no need for debate!!
 
The system has full travel as much if not more than the original air bag system-- and how says the original system should be used as a baseline as the best-- it was from the lowest bidder!  Having a seperate suspension for each wheel can only go to having more control and it feels that way.  The first time you drive your coach with a quad bag system you have to say there is something different-- and has more control.  No debate needed, if you have not driven one then shut up until you have!  I have not had 1 person tell me they did not notice any difference after installing a quad bag system and every comment was it was a better ride by far.  No debate there either!
 
Yes, it costs more money in fact it is THE most expensive way to update your rear suspension-- but if you can clearly see it is a better ride, safer and frees you up from any one person to maintain the system-- brother it is well worth the expense.  And when you see what you are buying, all the custom, beautifully built pieces/parts you can clearly see what you are buying and why it costs what it does.  It's not just an air bag with some welded up adapters turned sideways to fit!
 
Yea, I too am passionate about the pieces/parts I use on the GMC BUT after 20+ years of this I feel I can make those claims because I have tested them.
 
Look, we all live in America-- well most of us-- and we are free to do things anyway we like but it does not give us the right to try and climb up the ladder stepping on others as we try and go up.  I have never attacked your "Sullybilt" system though I think it's a rig job.  I do not subscribe to several of the things that are spewed out here on the net but until the folks get out of hand, I don;t see it as my place to put them in their place-- that is until they attack me or some part that clearly is a better mousetrap.  The quad bag is just that, a computer failure tested and passed upgrade.
 
And while I'm throwing it all out there, why (other than price and I have to tell ya just close your eyes and write the check-- I mean did you buy your coach to do everything on the cheap?) don;t we support the community at large and put our collective money into 1 system.  That way it will be here for the future.  If we do not support parts produced for us, they will not be here.  Guys, stop doing everything the cheapest way-- it's not going to be cheap to save the planet, get off og OPEC oil, save the whale, global warming and all of that.  Why do was a;ways hold out for the cheapest way to do stuff?  Yea, yea I know the fixed income thing and all that-- if you truly feel you are having a difficult time affording your GMC, please sell it because you are not helping yourself or the coach making decisions only based on cost.  Always, the best way to spend more money is to do things as cheaply as possible-- nothing but fact there!
 
Ending this, do your rear suspension any way you like but do not try and convince me or anyone else that the only way to go is the cheap way to go and there is no value in the quad bag system because you are not correct in that assumption!  It is a superior system, I know it, have proven it and will never believe anything less.  If you really want to know you have the best rear suspension-- hands down, install a quad bag system and be done with it!!
 
Jim Bounds
--------------------------------


________________________________
From: Wayne Lawrence <way...@ca.rr.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:52 PM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Air bag replacement choices

[Jim Bounds]

Yea, I gotta say more--- Of course the tire and bag on the side one is taken from is overloaded.  I am not saying to drive to California that way-- I am saying you do not get on the side of the road with the ants and wizzing trucks-- you can move to a safe location to effect repairs.  When the coach blew 2 tires 4 years ago, we drove it to the next rest area where the rest of the convoy waited and saw how easy it was to change out the tire-- with no jak!  Guys come on, use your noodle, having independent suspensions for each wheel opens up so many really good options.  Debate what you will but it's just safer not having 2 wheels pushing on eachother.  
 
Before Sully was attacking the value added of the quad bag system-- if yoiu open the box and take a look at the complete kit it is easy to see what your $ bought.  There is not a huge profit in this system in fact if you guys don;t support this clearly superior suspension modification it may not be here for future owners which would be a travisty.  So the outcome of us all fussing and posturing may in the end hurt the community.  Why do we do this to ourselves, quibble within?  We really should promote the same pieces/parts, that way we can sell enpough of them to make them available in the future because remember--- It's all about the money-- if there is no money in it for someone wo waste time with, it will not be available-- same thing with the other mods out there right now.  We just need to help ourselves and get on a system and stay on it.  This market is too narrow for competition.  No one is making big money here -- do you want folks to
throw their hands up, take their ball and go home?  I will tel you that answer is NO!  I sell stuff for Jim K., if you buy a quad bag from me, it's shipped from Jim K.  I have no problem with tat, it's helping the community.  Has less to do with any profit that is not being made and more about simply supporting the community so please guys, get off this thing of saving some small amount of money and support the community-- stop bickering and lets keep our motorhomes on the road.
 
Jim Bounds
------------------------- 


________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:05 PM

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Air bag replacement choices

[sgltrac]

I am glad King Jim has spoken to clear the air on this issue and answer my thoughtful questions. I am relieved to know that the QuadraBRAG system is the best system out there. How do I know this? Jim says so.

And while I will not call you an " ignorant slut" I will say that you have been staring at that QuadraBRAG for so long that you see nothing else. Total self fulfilling prophecy. You said it yourself that it is a superior system and will never believe anything less. I have never stated that the Sullybilt system is BETTER than the QuadraBRAG. I simply stated and still hold that it is NO LESS SAFE AND A HELL OF A LOT LESS MONEY than the QuadraBRAG. 3 tires could be purchased with the $ delta.

I never questioned the value of the QuadraBRAG system just the necessity of it. Just because it is the most complicated and expensive rear suspension available does not make it the safest as you repeatedly assert.

I have never spoken a disparaging word about the quality or function of the QuadraBRAG rear suspenson system let alone call it a "rig job"

Sorry to question the hierarchy but I do not know what you mean when you mention the right to climb the ladder stepping on others as I try to go up. Oh thats right, the King does not need to answer legitimate questions cause he says so. So don't question the King. Thank you for "puting me in my place".

The Sullybilt system is as King Jim said "just two airbags with some welded up adapters turned sideways to fit" That is the true beauty of it really. It is not a complicated re engineering of the rear suspension system with more parts and more air lines with more fittings and more potential leak points than a single bag with a single line. " a better mouse trap "? In a Rube Goldberg way sure.

So spend $900 more for the QuadraBrag cause money does not matter and if you dont then it will no loner be available and GMC venders will become extinct. Got it. Really?

A simpler, less costly system is not necessarily less safe than a more complicated and expensive system. I think most people get that.

So, how does one "isolate one of the rear wheels and continue on their way"? How do you keep the tire carcass from spinning on the road and eventually coming apart and destroying the bodywork?

Still nothing but crickets.

--
Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.

[Patrick Fitzmorris]

Well, I'm no Jim Bounds, but i'll endeavor to answer that last question.

It seems that the way you isolate one of the wheels is to
disconnect/shut off/deflate the bag for the 'bad' wheel, then use some
lumber to support the now limp bogie arm up and off the ground.

All of the weight of that side of the coach is now transferred to the
frame by way of that big metal bracket bolted to the top of the
central casting. (ref:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmcmi-dothan-alabama-spring-2009/p28940-done.html
)

In order to maintain ride height, it seems likely that the remaining
bag will need to be pumped up fit to bust.

Personally, I dislike the thought of ever driving that system more
than a quarter mile in that state. the torque that that big bracket
will be putting on the casting would be terrific.

[Todd Sullivan]

Do you have a photo with the wood in place?

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

Sent from my iPhone

[Rob Mueller]

Sully,

The wood would be inserted below the bogie arm where it enters the bogie box, "shimming" it up.

Regards,
Rob M.


-----Original Message-----

From: Todd Sullivan

Do you have a photo with the wood in place?

Sully
77 royale
Seattle

[sgltrac]

Thanks Rob

--
Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.

[Jim Bounds]

Rob and others who deserve answers,
 
I blew a good 45 min. this morning at breagkfast writing up a post response to "Sully's" immature post.  Good thing my cell phone will not post to the net.  It's not that I feel any different and if it did post I certainly stand by what I said but as many have told me to calm down a bit before I  respond to some of the *&^%$# posts here on the net-- so after working a little today I feel I can respond with a bit more intelegence and restrain. 
 
Actually, there is enough drama on the net right now, I reject most every word that was written about "King Jim", what rubbish!  I'm not going to give him or anyone that feels that way about me satisfaction that you got under my skin.  You did and under most other circumstances I would take exception to it.  If he is going to be at the WS rally I make take that exception then but really any of that deminishs us all and the community.  He abviously does not care about aiding in dismantling the dealer structure-- dissing Jim K., myself and others.  We can all choose to sell or not support a customer so I certainly do hope someone at Rock Auto knows something  the GMC because it's my guess, certainly from me that no parts or input or services will go his way.  You don't support me, I don't support you-- simple as that.
 
Lets talk about marketing-- the rear suspension options have diluted any volume to be made in offering these unique parts to the point that I would not be surprised if soon nothing will be available so you will have to whittle cluge out something.  If you make it unprofitable for someone to offer parts and services to such a niche industry it's simple-- those parts and services will go away.  I have already redirected some of my efforts to "Vintage RV Restorations".  We have a Travco, Argosy and recently we restored a Dodge Chassis Cabana.  Those folks are excited we will work on their stuff-- see if you ask someone with an Airstream, Revcon, FMC, Cortez or any other machine they would cherish having someone offering them parts and information.  I for one go where I'm appreciated.  There are many, less from the established GMC community and more new GMC and RV owners who completely understand what it is to have help, they appreciate and support us
while we have to put up with your likes elsewhere.  Maybe the GMC community his grown acustomed to having dealers to kick around-- could be. 
 
Most support us but just like politics, it's the reactionary vocal 5% that screws it up for the rest of us-- I have to tell you it's happening here.  Most everyone at the Dothan rally really had a great time but there were a few backbiters and self centered people (there are always a few in the bunch) who were out there solo.  Let me give you an example without using names because that's not why I'm bringing this up-- it's the unconcious thought process I want to point out:
 
In a talk, the presenter said and I quote, "Before you sent $24 to Jim K. for this part maybe you should try and rebuild it.  Would have really felt that way if he had the cost right but this was an extremely important brake part that if it fails it will effect the usefulness of your brakes.  These are not parts you should screw with especially if it's your first go around.  The part is on the shelf at my place or Jim K.'s.  Why did we ferrit out this part and have them on the shelf available?  Mainly because they are so important and until we figured it out they were no available!  It's made of better material and they are all new.  You should NEVER play with your brakes.  Get into a wreck and your agent finds out you had been messing with the brakes and brother you are not covered by his insurance.  They cannot back your messing around and this is a real world issue!  One person sitting through the seminar came over to me while it was going
on and asked if the part was available new.  I said of course, the guy said then why are we sitting here trying to figure out how to beat our dead horse?  He was right, by promoting fooling with it, not only has the liability of the brakes skyrocketed, the presenter came out and said don;t send money to the dealer that has them on the shelf for you, screw with your old one and see if you can make it work.  Sorry but I cannot subscribe to that thought process.  I do not mean to attack anyone-- it's the thought process I have a problem with.  Some things should not be shade tree fixed and folks should understand that and be directed to renew those important parts.
 
So now I have probably alienated myself from another select group of netters but I cannot say anything but the truth here.  If you do not support the dealer structure by buying needed important parts, one day when you need something that no one has-- in the words of our Canadian friends "You will be hooped"!
 
Everyone is so confused about rear suspensions that the market is destroyed.  I have no dog in the fight, I gave up on soliciting parts business from you guys long ago.  Guys buy parts from me because they know I shoot straight.  Parts is not a "profit center" in my business mainly because my CPA says I am not making enough on them to even pay her to count them!  Jim K. is trying to offer you guys many parts and he has a seriously high vested interes.  I think it's not a god return listening to all the flack he gets.  There are big bucks here on this subject.  You guys can turn off your computer and this is all gone, Jim K. is looking at a huge nut to crack and trying to do that with all this quibbling going on-- I can see why he's stressed out!  I don;t care if that brake part is sold or not, I have them to use on my restorations so it's no big deal to me if you guys flog that horse til the head pops off.  Go for it man!
 
See that, I can't just say a few words and get to the point, this business is more than that to me.  It's more than making a buck, I love it and take exception when I find someone not supporting efforts.  I gotta get to work-- I'm not going to prolong this anymore.  Do what you want Sully, I really do not care,
 
Jim Bounds

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Rob Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Air bag replacement choices

[Daryn]

Hi all,

I was really enjoying this thread until the flaming started. A lot of good info about simple solutions as well as the latest and greatest was being presented. As a somewhat new owner of the gmc I was very impressed with the respectful way that this board and community seemed to get along. I may be stepping out of line here as a new member, but one sure way to kill off the future of the gmc, and this forum for that matter, is to turn it into some kind of elite club that only the rich can afford.

As someone who can actually afford to "close my eyes and write the check" does not mean I'm just going to do it. For someone to say if you "can't afford a gmc then just sell" it really offended me. We need all of the choices. How are you going to assure the future if you can't get the younger, or people with less resources, to join the club. I beg all of you to please remember that not everybody can afford the "best" but they have just as much passion and skills to carry on the great tradition that these unique vehicles afford.

We should be teaching our younger members about how these 40 year old systems work and how to work on them. Sometimes this means providing cost effective solutions. I personally would like more people to understand how a carburetor works for instance, and what to do when it floods out and leaves them stranded. Easy to get going in a pinch, with just a little bit of knowledge. As these members grow older, learn more, and gather more resources, they will "want" to upgrade to fuel injection, quadbags, one ton front ends etc. That is what will keep our vendors in business. In the meantime, lets focus on keeping these things on the road any way that we can. This is the way that everyone will survive.

Sorry if I offended anybody. I just want to see this community thrive!


--
1975 Eleganza II
Hudson Valley NY

[Rick Drummond]

Bravo Daryn, I really appreciate your very eloquent way of stating what I was feeling also.
As the originator of this thread I was feeling a little guilty for starting the fireworks as well as being offended for the if you can't afford to pay then give up and go away suggestion.
To the 99% of the responses to my question that were constructive and informative, thank you! Your comments have given me the direction I needed to decide which projects I'm going to attack first this spring.

Regards,
Rick D

Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert

[Mark]

An87ttype hit it on the head, IMHO. This thread (and situation) is entirely out of hand, with the principle combatants mis-characterizing each other's comments so they can make a point (mostly based on what the other guy didn't actually say). An ex boss explained things like this to me thusly...

"It's like a bunch of people holding a big rock over a steaming pile of cow dung - it doesn't matter much who actually drops it, everyone ends up covered".

Should we support vendors who produce otherwise unavailable parts for our GMCs? Of course we should. But that support can't be blind, and shouldn't require blinders to other options. Markets change, and every vendor on earth has to adjust. The US car industry was a bigger example of what we have here - several dominant manufacturers who assumed their customer base should continue to beat a path to their door no matter what. They didn't see the obvious (that Japan and Europe were starting to leave them in the dust) and went through a long, hard time as a result.

Markets change. A vendor who might have ordered 1,000 LED lights so he could sell them for $20 when everyone else was selling them for $25 won't do well when you can buy the same thing on Ebay a couple years later for $3. That doesn't mean the guy selling them for $3 is evil, since he's put his own money and time on the line to try to create a market. That's really what this is all about, and how this economy is supposed to work. If someone else really DOES build a better and/or cheaper mousetrap, the way to fight it is to build an even better and/or even cheaper mousetrap. If the other mousetrap is junk, the market will take care of that, too - we're far too small and tight of a community for bad products to survive long - or for good ones to go unnoticed, for that matter.

I for one appreciate having options when it comes time to replace my air bags (especially since my left one is pretty weather-checked!). I like a lot of things about the Quad-Bag system, and a lot of things about Sully's system. It's not a black/white decision by any means... I won't spiral off onto a rabbit trail describing what I feel the advantages and disadvantages of each are, but I'd be more than happy to have either one on my coach (and I'm really proud of that coach, and won't accept less than great parts). There are NO bad choices here, though there are other options on the market that are sub-par, IMHO... just no one associated with this thread.

A great example of what I'm talking about was when I discovered my relay arm was worn out and was the cause of most of the remaining play in my front end. I looked at all the options, including buying $10 worth of NOS bushings on Ebay and pressing them in, buying a "rebuild kit" from another vendor for around $100, or buying a refurbished relay arm from Dave Lenzi for about $300. I ended up going with the last, most expensive option, but not blindly and not because I thought Dave Lenzi is a saint (though he may well be, based on my dealings with him so far). ;) I spent the hard-earned money on his part because he - and others in this community - convinced me that the value of the part more than offset the higher cost. Dave didn't try to convince me that there would never be another relay arm available to me if he took his marbles and went home - he just offered me a product that was worth what he was asking for it, to me. I've bought products from both Jims as well, and
feel that each time they were offering a competitive, worthwhile product at a fair price. But in each case, what I paid for each product was well in line with the "market" in general, or of a higher quality than what I'd find elsewhere, AND sometimes I paid at least a bit of a premium because I wasn't certain I'd be getting the right part if I sourced it elsewhere - that's where reputation and history count. But all the participants in this drama are good guys, know what the heck they're talking about (at least until their knickers get in a twist), and will do just fine if they just take a deep breath and realize that none of this nonsense will matter one whit five years from now.
--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

[Howard and Sue]

Jim
Good point Jim.
Thank You
All is well with my Lord
Howard
Alpine CA
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the
average voter
(Winston Churchill)

[Ken Henderson]

Well, how 'bout that! We really DO have some calm, rational, thoughtful
members left here! I can't say how glad I am to see this tempest in a
teapot smothered, swept under the rug, and never, hopefully, resurrected --
on this topic nor any other!

I've repeatedly expressed the opinion that this should be a place for the
free exchange of INFORMATION. On any GMC-related topic (OK, OK, so
sometimes I DO stretch that relationship), and without criticism and
ostracism from anyone. I have no quarrel with anyone refuting incorrect
facts. I DO have a BIG problem with anyone presenting what is obviously
their INTERPRETATION of facts or grossly biased opinions. And I have an
ENORMOUS problem with anyone "flaming" anyone else personally. That
diminishes my opinion of the "flammer" far more than the "flamee".

Please, let's be civil and permit free speech without just trying to
protect anyone's turf.

Ken H.

[Mickey Space Ship Shuttle]

We should all buy something from Jimk, jimb and manny to show our pride in their helping make us a success with our investments.

Without them i would not be running now. I want to thank them for helping us all. I am so glad to have my gmc. thank you gentlemen.

77 palm beach, anaheim ca. best regards:

mickey :-)

50 years of good vibrations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwrKKbaClME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=d8rd53WuojE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5AmqCy2NNQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYl7g4iLPQo


Next time i am buying a quad! Thanks for the info to understand it!

On Mar 28, 2013, at 6:17 AM, Jim Bounds wrote:
> lets keep our motorhomes on the road.
>
> Jim Bounds
> -------------------------
>

[Daryn]

I agree that we should all support our proud vendors. If they weren't so proud and dedicated I don't think this whole discussion would have gotten so out of hand in the first place. We all need to remember that the parts business is pretty much a no profit part of what they do. Don't give them a hard time. Without their dedication, our restorations and repairs would be much more difficult for sure.

With that said, lets focus on keeping the forum a place to find the best solution for our particular situation, even if some folks need to do things a little cheaper at first. Lets try and help to keep these things on the road any way that we can! Lets try and teach the younger folks that just because something is old, does not mean it should be scrapped.

With the support of this community "King GMC" will reign forever!!!

--
1975 Eleganza II
Hudson Valley NY