[GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[Mike Sadlon]

If you have been following me, you know I am on a quest to find a bolt in crate motor answer to our lack of engine future availability.

I posted a link to the HT383. I believe it could be the answer. And I will have a kit with pan and front mounts my the end of the month.


http://www.hotrod.com/articles/gm-ht383-crate-small-block-tune-up/


There have been requests for a more modern transmission. I have done tons of research and I may have an answer, but it does go sideways. The experts I
talked to say the 4T80e will live a very long life behind the HT383. they are cheap and plentiful. The people I talked to said find a 60,000 take out
in the $500 price range fill it with synthic fluid and run it. Rebuilds are expensive because they almost never need them. The trans is available with
a 3.71 gear and even in OD the HT383 should make enough torque to run down the road at 2500 rpm. Controllers are available. This is a little more
development than I can afford to do on my own. There will be a lot to figure out. But things like CV joints and axles can be done all GM. Probably the
worst will be having to go with electric fans. But I believe with a modern aluminum radiator it can be done. FYI the LS will not fit in front of the
4T80e. and only the 5.3 LS4 fits in front of the 4t65E-HD, and my experts say that trans won't live in our application. Who want to get involved?

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[Josh R.]

I am new to the GMC motorhome world and this is my first front wheel drive vehicle, but my question is why not put in a 1 ton duramax 4X4 setup
without the rear drive shaft. I'm sure it has something to do with making it fit.
--
1978 Royale 403

[Keith V]

The real question is why?

Thats a lot of work and money to fix something thats not broken.

BTW, I think everyone goes through the 'lets put a new engine in the GMC' phase, I know I did...

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Josh R. <chie...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 7:58:28 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

It is the 'hot rod' spirit, and it ought to be nurtured, not denigrated. I'm all for somebody else doing mods if that's their game, I'll watch with
interest. I've seen several swaps (two Diesels and several Cads) and they seem to do well. They also took a LOT of time and effort, or at shop rates
a LOT of money. If I manage to lunch the mill in my coach, I'll go for another 455, it's relatively cheap and easy. Yall go for the swaps.
Please note, one of my toads is a Ranger with a whacked - out to the max 302 engine which I got in trade a couple of years ago. I love it, but not
enough to have done the swap myself.

--johnny

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Mike Sadlon]

I would love to say that this is in the "hot rod spirit". The truth is Jim Bounds and Jeff Sirum are having a hard time getting engines rebuilt. Come
to a Sunshine Statesmen rally and spend time with them. The shops they are using take time to produce rebuilt engine, and they are dropping faster
then they can get them done. That's not even taking in the about 20% return that some shops seems to be getting. At $7500 per engine rebuild, there is
some room for a new approach.

Jim mainly but even Jeff would like a BRAND NEW ENGINE with a factory warranty to install in customer coaches. Jim is always looking at new things,
look at the 350 Olds they are doing. But that is still a rebuilt 35+ year old engine.

Looking at Jegs, they will sell you the HT383 with 600 hp Fitech and Ignition for around $5600. throw in a New compete GM accessary drive(serpentine)
for $1000 an install kit from me, and you have yourself a lot of NEW on a 40 year old coach. For about the same money as a rebuilt 455 longblock.

Stick around for more fun!

[Emery Stora]

I thought it might be good to point out what my 455 engine rebuild at Total Precision Engines in Ft. Collins cost me.
I paid just under $4000 for the rebuild. Plus I had provided the Comp Cams roller rocker arm kit which was about $250.

This included line boring, cylinder boring to 40 thousand over, pocket porting of the exhaust valve area in the heads, grinding of the main crank, Dick Paterson’s modification of the thrust bearing, high volume Melling oil pump and all new parts such as camshaft, Cloyes double roller timing chain, lifters, rods, pistons, valves, crank balancer, bearings and bolts. He even provided the Brad Penn break in oil.
It was returned to me painted in an Olds blue and looked like a new engine.

As I pointed out earlier I have burned 0 quarts of oil in the first 1750 miles and it seems to be a very strong engine.

This is way below the $7500 that Mike mentions

Other GMCers in the Colorado area have used this shop and I have been told that they all are 100% satisfied..

Larry Coldren is the one that recommended this shop to me

If anyone wants information on the shop, let me know. http://www.totalprecisionengines.com

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

[James Hupy]

S and J engines will deliver a long block Olds 455 remanufactured to my
specifications onto my shop floor in Salem for around $4000.00 for a fairly
stock engine. For me to remove and replace that engine, I charge 22 hours
labor. That is a BASE price. Any extras add to the cost. You don't work for
free, and neither do I. My overhead costs are for a 1 person shop. Jim
Bounds, Alex and Jeff, Jim K. all have different overhead costs due to
prevailing wages, geography, and too many other factors to list here. They
cannot remain in business without profit. That's the cold hard facts. Add
to that, the fact that we are working on highly stressed 40 year old
castings, and it gets interesting. Just the way it is.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[rally...@juno.com]

Will it run on regular gasohol with its 9.1 compression ratio?

RonC

On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 06:14:29 -0600 Mike Sadlon <Captn...@gmail.com>
writes:

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Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
1978 Eleganza II

[Mike Sadlon]

RonC, according to GM, yes, fastburn heads help reduce detonation. but as always, your tune may vary.

Jim and Emery, most of what Jeff and Jim talked about is that so many parts on the motors are junk. I don't dismiss your $4000 for rebuild on a
rebuildable motor. What they are seeing; is block won't take a bore add $500. Crank has already been turned replacement $500. Heads major work seats
valves add $500. intake needs work add $500 to $800 for new intake. Balancer shot, add $100. New water pump $100. new or rebuilt distributor. $150.

Customers have a hard time with, "you told me $5000, and now you add $2300 to your quote". It's just easier to add it all in.

And it is still a rebuilt engine.

[James Hupy]

Mike, not intentionally trying to argue with you, BUT, how much torque and
horsepower does your intended engine make at 2000 rpm? Between there and
3000 rpm is where the Olds engine was intended to run. 3200 on my 403 with
3:70 final drive gearing is 70+ mph. Don't know how much faster we need to
push these coaches. As for these castings, I will take a 40 year old High
Nickel content Olds block over a soft iron Chevrolet block anyday,
especially with powdered connecting rods. Just my way of looking at it.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Mike Sadlon]

Jim, I don't think arguing at all, just a good healthy discussion.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-ht-383

Dyno sheet is on the link. I did a lot of research to find a dyno sheet for a period correct 455. It is within 5% across the board. That's the main
reason I think this would be the best NEW motor.

Over 400 across the range.

If you have a NOS 40 year old motor hidden somewhere let me know.

Me, on the rods, I want new, engineered to do the job. If possible. Not a piece of metal with 2,700,000,000 cycles on it.

I think that's the number of cycles on rod in a 150,000 mile motor. Your number may vary. :)

[James Hupy]

Reason I mentioned the rods is, the powdered rods are not happy campers in
heavily laden engines. The forged "I" beam rods that the Olds used are hell
for strong, yet I have seen more than a few of them out of round from
compression loading in motor home service. So, when I spec the rods, I pay
a lot of attention to them. The 2 bolt mains hold up really well at the
rpms we run the engines, even in the 403's with windowed main webs. Again
that speaks really well for hi-nickel castings.
When GM was making the diesel engines for HUMVEES, they elected to go
for soft iron blocks to extend tooling life during manufacturing. GM mfg
diesels blew up left and right even with governors that limited power
output. When AM GENERAL took over manufacturing of the diesels, one of the
first things they did was to go to a hi-nickel casting. Then they spent a
whole bunch of money on engineering to fix weaknesses in those engines.
They did a whole bunch of "test it until you destroy it" dyno work until
the reliability improved enough to pass and exceed military specs.
GM gasoline big block truck engines made in the Tonawanda plant have a
nickname that is well earned. I am sure that you have heard it more than
once.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Richard Denney]

If you are looking for investors (and I'm not one, so I'm being
unforgivably presumptuous with my comments), your business plan needs more
meat. What about motor mounts? Torque rod for a lateral engine? Maintenance
accessibility? Is the 383 so much more heat-efficient that it will solve
the electric fan issue? No electric-fan solution has yet been found for the
Olds engines. Is that crate engine built for bottom-end durability?

You have advisors telling you the transmission is appropriate for this
high-load, highway application. Has that been tested? Is the transmission
computer-controlled? What's the cost on the tranny, the control system, and
all the sensors? The tranny on my Ford retailed at $3800, not including the
controls. They also said they had never had to replace one--until mine.

What about all the parts needed to adapt the accessories? The serpentine
kit doesn't include wiring harness changes, for example, or new
air-conditioning hoses.

You've allowed $1000 at retail for your installation kit--even if you can
hit that in costs, how will you pay yourself?

Needless to say, I think a $7600 target for the engine is challenging
enough, but what about the (required) whole drivetrain? Just for
comparison, that $7600 engine plus $1500 for a transmission, $900 for a
final drive, $1500 for a front-end conversion that includes half-shafts,
all adds up to about $12K (rounding up), not including labor. Manny's
diesel conversion, which I suspect is a break-even deal for Manny, is
nearly four times that, andit uses the existing TH425.

Part of being a sustainable replacement is that it has to stand on its own
commercially, and not depend on the installation artistry that has marked
many successful conversions. That is relevant if we are going to justify it
on the basis of what shops need.

Nobody doing this needs justification to attempt it just for the challenge,
but then we are making an investment in fun. That requires a different set
of goals for investors.

Rick "some questions to be ready to answer when asking 'who's in?'" Denney

--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

[Jon Roche]

Going to be hard road to pave, but all a person can do is try and get a few out on the market and time will show how well it works.

I have seen a dave lenzi 8.1 and that is an impressive setup, but there is lots of cost and time.

It is scary how many blown up new engines we hear about, but i think there is an equal amount, if not way more of successful stories out there and
probably 1000 more you will never read about good or bad.

I do not know if I could think of 1 rebuilt engine that was totally stock. People usually change the cam, valves, add efi, and do other mods that
should help out how it runs, but you can complain the parts are 40 years old and dont last, you can argue that changing anything from oem soecs may
shorten the life of the original olds engine that was engineered in a way to be reliable


--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Gerald Work]

There actually is a good case to be made for preemptively rebuilding the engine and transmission. If you plan on keeping your GMC for ten or more years and if you use it a lot good chance it will need one or the other during your ownership tenure anyway, so why not do it now and get all the good out of instead of a downstream new owner getting that enjoyment at your expense.

That was our plan and why we replaced the whole running gear in the Clasco long before it was necessary. In this case plans changed which meant passing all that new life onto a new owner.

Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
........

The real question is why?

Thats a lot of work and money to fix something thats not broken.

BTW, I think everyone goes through the 'lets put a new engine in the GMC' phase, I know I did...

[Mike Sadlon]

Rick
Two things going on.
1st, the HT383 in front of the 425. I, and others, where looking at a LS motor program for the GMC. It looked like it might work out as a great motor.
But it will not be an easy install. They need a simple bolt in motor. Find my older posts here or on Facebook, I detail the problems. As I did
research on motors with comparable HP and torque, I came across the HT383. It's built for trucks and has almost the same stock 455 numbers. And from
the article, space for some simple HP upgrades if you needed or wanted then. The trans adaptor, new oil pan, and front mount will be done soon. The
front drive I recommend from GM. Will it need new AC, PS, and radiator hoses of course. Those will be worked out and documented on the first install.
The great thing about GMC owners is they come from all walks of life. At one end, they will take their coach to one of the experts and pay to have the
best installed. I work with these experts on a regular bases. The other end is(hopefully), buy my pan and mounts and source their small block stuff
from wherever. These are hot rods to a lot of people, build it as you want. I just know that as far as I can tell, nobody has looked at the SBC
before. Technology has improved. I think it would be a great motor.

2nd, the 4T80E trans. I was looking at trans that the LS may bolt up to. GM put a 5.3 LS based engine in front of the 4t65E-HD is some midsize cars as
a performance option. 2003-2005 impala SS monte carlo and others. the LS4 in these cars is not the same as other LS engines. Could the LS4 be upgraded
to make the torque we need? Maybe. Can the trans be upgraded to work? the answer I got was short term yes, long term no. A lot of this info is talked
about a bunch in the Fiero world. These guys do crazy stuff.
I was lead to the 4t80e by a 4t65e expert. He said it's a great transmission. Same problem, LS doesn't work. Even the LS4 won't bolt up. And I really
didn't want to start a conversation about using a Northstar. The smallblock can be made to fit. there is an adaptor that's out there.
So, to answer the question is there a modern transmission that MAYBE able to work in a GMC. Short answer Yes.
What I was throwing out there was, How bad does someone want an overdrive 4 speed trans? I would be willing to work with someone on doing it. My
labor, your coach and parts money. Document everything and if it works build a kit for it. If not it's another 1 of a kind coach. I believe it will
work, but I agree, I don't know if AT THIS TIME, it's the way to go.

Mike

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

It comes down to are you gonna do the work, or pay a shop to do it? 22 hours isn't out of line for an engine swap of the same engine. Locally, 100 -
120 bucks an hour. Double that for a different engine wouldn't be out of line.So on the low side, ~~ 5 Large to get the thing put in. I can have the
455 built and installed for half the loot the crate motor costs, before I buy a transmission. If I look at a Tonowanda Turd out of a motor home at
75K miles - I've yet to see one go further in that service although my experience is limited - it has a hell of a ridge and it probably wants a
minimum .03 overbore to get it round and the walls parallel. Grind the crankshaft .02 on the rods and .03 on the mains, if it's even fixable.
A gmc friend just rebuilt his 455. Being something of a purist and doing it for fun, he's got the PlastiGauge <tm> for every bearing in the silly
thing, and every one is set to the middle of the spec.He says the hardest part of the build was sourcing main bearings. The crankshaft miked
standard, but nobody much stocks standard bearings.
There are some several race shops around here, I suspect any of them would do a good job on a 455.
Gonna do it yourself? Go for the swap if you're supplying the labor.
Maybe Hal StClair will give his estimate of the hours spent doing the Diesel conversion in his coach? It was done [properly, and in a way that the
next owner if he were to ssell it doesn't have to worry about what's gonna fall off, because it doesn't look like anything is. I suspect it's an eye
opener though.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Jim Kanomata]

Peak torque at that high RPM will not work on our MH.
It's like putting in a racing cam.
You go ahead and do it, I'll wait the results.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Mike Sadlon]

OK jim and Johnny, I don't disagree with your 22 hours. That's about what Jeff charges and I would think after 30 years they have it down.

But lets break that down. My motor Dun Blowed Up! How much time of that is diassamble? Removal, okay everybody has to do that. But when you are
removing to reinstall same motor, you MUST save everything, or it's an ADDED expense. 2-4 hrs. They remove junkyard engines for resale in minutes. We
will need to be a little cleaner than that.

Now, remove everything to the longblock to have it head to the machine shop. How much time? If there aren't rusted bolts and stupid stuff, 3-5 hour
easy. OK now you took the motor to the machine shop. unless it's in your backyard, at least an hour to load drive 5 minutes unload, talk a little
motor talk, it's all "time is money." Now go back and start the clean up. Intake front cover oil pan, how much time of the 22 hours is that? 3-5? If
it's not cleaned to the Nth degree, your new motor just Dun blowed up!
Longblock is back from the machine shop, Yeah! Lets dress it out. 3-5 hrs easy. Did you smoke check it for leaks when you put it together. Did you
miss that the timing cover slipped, because when it's leaking in your customers drive, he or she will know. Did you have it dyno'ed. My engine builder
will not warranty that is not dyno'ed. Too many chances of the failure on break-in. So you dress it out and take it back to have it broke in. another
5-8 hours. OK let's put in back in. It went great 3 hours. And I will give you It started right up!

My low estimate is 17 hours. We all know nothing on 40 year old coaches goes that well.

The other side. Remove motor. cut the exhaust at the manifolds because the new headers hook up down stream. leave the accessories on because new go
on. take them loose at the easy end. New motor on the floor. All tins are installed at the factory and smoke checked for leaks. Intake balancer
already on. Install NEW front accessories With new bolts, how nice was that. 2 hours. Install new engine and hook up. First time-I will give you 5-6
hours, after that 4-5. One long day but the customer is happy! No "the machine shop said it needs two more days, parts are back order." Ever heard
that?

So, OK maybe I do disagree! How can this not be the way to go!

I'm ready!

[Mike Sadlon]

Oh come on Jim

Peak torque at that high RPM will not work on our MH.
It's like putting in a racing cam.
You go ahead and do it, I'll wait the results.

Did you see the original stock numbers? 444 lbs tq at 3000.

The article was to show what could be done. Not how I would put it in the GMC.
That exactly what the stock 455 made in the day!
Take a look at he GM dyno sheet and show me a stock rebuild sheet. You have to have some somewhere.
Mike

[Mike Sadlon]

Jim
I really wish you would read the article all the way through.
You know as well as anyone we need a new engine available to us.

The Title of the article 500 at 4200. But read it all the way down.

Even at those number, it still made 434 at 2500 and torque average 2500-4800 474 lbs.

I am not promoting all the upgrades. But The GM warrantied number will work with our coaches, they have for 40 years.

Hoping your coming to Elkhart to see it's grand unveiling.

Mike

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I'm not picking your idea. I merely point out, it isn't economically in the same ballpark as simply building the existing engine. As an exercise in
hotrodding it's prime. Go for it. I'll be intensely interested in how well it holds up to being lugged off every light.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Gerald Work]

You are singing one of my favorite songs. Our forum, no matter how important the info shared is, leaves the impression that our coaches are unreliable and incapable of secure long distance travel. Not so from our experience

Our two GMCs have been just about everywhere one would want to go in North America. We have written and given talks at GMC rallies about how very reliable they have been for us going 10000 to 20000 miles a year for 15 years. Have we had issues at times, sure. But with no where the frequency of our uneventful trips and adventures.

For me the mantra for our community should be "if you absolutely have to get there on a fixed schedule a 40+ year old anything should not be your first choice. But, if rewarding travel is your goal it is really hard to beat a good GMC".

Written from a site over looking a beautiful
Pinot Noir grape vineyard east of the I5 and north of Roseburg, OR, while on a month long shakedown cruise in the new to us Prevost Country Coach - the essence of the box the GMC came in!

Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
..........::

It is scary how many blown up new engines we hear about, but i think there is an equal amount, if not way more of successful stories out there and
probably 1000 more you will never read about good or bad.

.........

[rich...@comcast.net]

Having had the opportunity of maintaining lots of equipment that is at least 50 years old...... Maintenance....maintenance....maintenance. Getting ahead of the curve is the key.... Just bought a coach? Spend a little bit for an oil analysis for both the engine and transmission. Assume that there has been no maintenance done before you became caretaker. Be an observant driver, strange instrument readings? resolve them before you take it on that extended road trip. Do as much maintenance as you can. Watch whomever you select to do the work. Follow the maintenance manual. Any piece of equipment will continue to give you good, reliable service under those conditions.


----- Original Message -----

[Bob Dunahugh]

Never saw a good reason to jump out of a perfectly good running air plane. OK. You won't see me sky dive. And putting in another power plant isn't something I'd want to jump into. At least not YET. I love seeing the creativity that goes into ideas like these. I pull heavier GVW's then about anyone. And I do it with a stock 403 Royale (12,000LBS), and sometimes an enclosed trailer at 9000LBS. The 3:70 FD gets it done. I don't win the drag race at the stop light. And I'm not the first one to the top of the mountain. But I can hold 80 mph on the flats of Iowa. I love new ideas on increasing torque, and ponies on the road race tracks. I'll try anything ONCE. Well, maybe twice. As to our GMC. It ain't broke. I'm not fixen. BUT. Let's see what happens. Bob Dunahugh

[Jim Kanomata]

Mike,
Sorry, but I do not read in detail much anymore, so I just key on few
things.
I do agree with you 100% that these Oficial GM crate engines are the most
dependable.
We slap them in our company trucks and pick up and we hardly prime the oil,
anything goes wrong, they repair it free as I am ASE Certified.
My concern is the torque curve , Most of our coaches have the 3.07 final
ratio and that tells me at 60 mph it will turn around 2,280rpm.
The wind drag at 60 is stronger we like.
I will try to print the article and do serious reading.
I appreciate you calling me down to read the article .

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Mike Sadlon]

All
I posted some dyno sheets over on the facebook for easy comparison.

Careful, they may shock you!

[Larry Nelson]

I love this discussion.......whenever it comes up. I am older than my motorhome by exactly 30 years and I admire you guys that still have it in you to
get down on the creeper and start wrenching.

From what I can tell my 455 has about 115k on it. Back when was much younger, if an engine got tired you pulled the heads, had them "done" and hope
the rings and cylinders will survive the "new" heads. I guess that is not done anymore. Sometimes we would pull the pistons, hone out the cylinders,
and re-ring it and go about our business because we needed the vehicle to get to work and feed the family (obviously not referring to a motorhome).

In the aviation world, where I spend most of my $$$, we have top overhauls and major overhauls. I am suggesting our old approach with the family
driver was more of a "top" overhaul, but not really because you could get everything but bottom end work redone in a top overhaul, and in fixing the
family driver as described above, the bottom end and cylinders would still be in the dark.

When I started with my first GMC, the Jasper engines and Danny Dunn trannies seemed to be very popular. I had a Danny Dunn in my first PB.

Anyway, times change. I just want reliability. Don't need to go 75 mph and pull 10,000# up a mountain grade.

Keep talkin, folks....love it!!

Larry
--
Larry Nelson Springfield, MO
Ex GMC'er, then GM Busnut
now '77 Eleganza ARS WB0JOT

[Richard Denney]

Larry brings up a point worth remembering: We've had engine programs of
various types come and go.

Some were in search of excellence (8.1), and some were in search of cost
control (Jasper). But they go because they are built on an unsustainable
business model. Either they require artistry in installation, or they
pushed too far the compromises needed for cost control.

What we have ended up with is specialty engine builders who are willing to
learn what needs to be understood to make an Olds engine reliable in this
application. But there is risk there, and the shops struggle with that risk
(and struggle to justify pricing that compensates them for that risk).

The problem is that when someone blows an engine, they have it towed to one
of the GMC shops, who then have to source a replacement engine with a blown
core. The core, because it blew, may have scored cylinders, or a cracked
block, or damaged main-bearing journals, or be otherwise too damaged to
salvage, and another 455 goes into scrap. And without a stock of usable
cores, each customer with a blown engine has to face whatever it takes to
make their core work, or wait until another core can be sourced. The cranks
I'm less worried about--they are (at least currently) replaceable with new.
Good rods and pistons are still available, as are all the other bits that
go into the engine. We have also learned how to manage the problem of flat
tappets by using specialty break-in oils that make sure they are properly
broken in.

The issues Mike mentioned with the unknowns are not really unknowns, and
the 30 hours of labor the shops usually charge includes most of them
already. The issue is not having a core that can be rebuilt--the is the big
unknown.

The solution to that is simple, but scary to some: Replace the engine
BEFORE it blows. Larry mentions airplane engines, about which I know little
except what I hear from airplane owners. Airplane engines bring up a
principle about how to know when it is time to overhaul an engine--they use
hours. Most GMC (and other land-vehicle) owners use health indicators: Oil
pressure, temperature, oil appearance, (supposedly) routine compression
checks, and (probably best) oil analysis. Many GMC owners use nothing more
than the dash gauges and i...ndicator lights.

The most important indicator, and the one suggested by airplane
maintenance, is this: The odometer. I recall something I read on Gene's
site many years ago. Here's the link: http://gmcmotorhome.info/safety.htm

In that list, he mentions a range of things that should be considered for
safe, reliable motorhome ownership. He mentions maintenance of wheel
bearings, ball joints, and not letting tires age out, but then he writes
this (and you can tell how long ago he wrote it):

Quote:
4. (May not be truth, but I believe) if you have 100,000 miles on your
20-year-old coach, you need new:
- engine
- master cylinder
- vacuum booster
- fuel lines
- fuel pump
- water pump and fan clutch
- brake cylinders
- alternator
End quote.

The point is not that these items can't last longer, it's that after 100K
miles, they are on borrowed time.

That's partly why I replaced my engine at 103,000 miles. John Beaver had a
core, and now he has another core that was good enough to drive me down to
Georgia for the swap. Someone else will get that one, and if they do it as
an item of regular maintenance, rather than waiting for the engine to blow
up, their core will stay in the system, too. (Most of the other items on
Gene's list don't last that long--I've replaced most of them long before
reaching 100K miles).

If everyone did that, we'd have fewer problems with rebuilt 455's, in my
view, because we'd be rebuilding better cores in the first place. That
would help manage the risk the shops assume when they replace an engine.

That doesn't mean there is no value in exploring alternatives, but it has
to be done in a way that can be sustained commercially as well as
technically. That means a conversion should be doable by a regular shop,
not by an artist who is not charging a customer by the hour. I think that's
what Mike is aiming at, but the business model issues are more likely to
kill the program than technical roadblocks. For example, there is one
conversion that has been proven reliable and sustainable beyond the one-off
experimental phase, and that's Manny's diesel conversion. But it's
expensive, and it still depends on Manny's willingness and ability to make
it commercially feasible. That conversion costs about $40K, with "about"
being a big word. It's a good model to follow for anyone who is seeking an
alternative power plant using a newly manufactured engine. But it still
depends on the TH-425, and that is probably less sustainable in the long
run than the Olds 455.

Rick "sorry for the length" Denney

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I've the dyno results from 2010 when the Jasper engine was new in my coach. At the wheels figures from a Mustang dynamometer. Peak power corrected
was 235.6 HP, peak torque corrected was 439.3 lbs/ft. Peaks - power at 3200, torque at 2700.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Keith V]

Car craft mag built a olds 455 for torque, it put out over 500ft/lbs below2400 rpm or so and the torque was already decreasing.

But it's a race engine, not what I want in my MH

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 12:01:39 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[Mike Sadlon]

There seems to be some question about the strength of the 4T80e.

Keep in mind the progression at GM.

the 400/425 torque capacity morphed into the 4l80E/ 4T80E.

The L (longitudal) 4L80e was the trans of choice in the big block trucks. And had a reasonable decent reputation.

It was only the increase torque of the Duramax and 8.1 that a new, more robust trans was needed. The Allison.

The internals of the 4t80E match the 4l80E. The same as the internals of the 400 match the 425.

And yes. The chain is a limiter.

The real enemy is HEAT under sustain max load. Synthetics and a temp gauge go a long way to battling that enemy!

[Les Burt]

I have no personal knowledge/experience with the 4t80e so I'm wondering what would prevent emplying an adapter plate to mate it to a more preferable engine than the LS4?

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Dolph Santorine]

GM specified a limit of 8000 lbs (the “80” strength number was allegedly arbitrary)

A friend had them in a fleet of Cadillac DTS (Black cars) behind the Northstar.

They were not a fan of the transmissions (or for that matter, the Northstar). Many more transmission failures that they would have expected, especially since they were airport runs with virtually no in town traffic.

Conversely, I’m hearing really good things about the V6/6 Speed in the Promaster 3500. There’s a truck service company running around here with a cutaway with a specialized service body on the back, and it has to go every bit of 13,000 lbs. They claim it’s been great.

Just say’in

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[Mike Sadlon]

Les
Even the LS4 doesn't fit. The clutch are is too large and hits everything.

The LS4 fits in front(along side) the 4T65E-hd, because the clutches and housing are smaller.

The only motors that fit from GM are the Northstar and the Olds 4.0 Aurora. If you want.

In the Fiero world, people have put the small block with the 4T80E.

[Rob Mueller]

Mike,

Which trucks used the 4T80e?

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Sadlon
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 1:30 AM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[Mike Sadlon]

No trucks, just the Caddy and some other GM full-size
.

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

The ProMaster V-6 looks like the same setup as my wife's T&C, cammer V6 and a 6 speed automatic. Is it the same transmission, or something different?
Looks like Fiat sells it in their larger van in the home country as well. The engine is flexible, if that transmission would stand up to pulling one
of our coaches around. You could likely build up a front clip with that setup without a lot of trouble. Just looking at the T&C, looks like itwuld
fit.Eith some finagling you >might< get the existing axles to align with it.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Mike Sadlon]

Johnny's right. it is the same transmission, the 62TE. Probably closer to GM 4t65e than the 4t80e. Been around in Chrysler stuff since 2007.

Jim Bounds was into the diesel Ram van for a while, At a winter rally, I told him to really look at it. Didn't seem to be near HD enough to me.

At the Marathon rally, he was over it!

[Paul Zerkel]

I have neither the knowledge to understand all this engine/transmission to understand such an installation nor the funds available to pay someone else
to figure it out. So I probably should just not even post here.

That said, Ken H's comments seem completely logical to me. I did find power train control system's website. I do wonder if anyone is going to
undertake such a project that the 6t75 or possibly the 6t80 would be viable choices. It appears to me that the 4t80 is already older technology

Like I said, I really do not know enough about this stuff, and probably should not have posted this. I will stop now nand just read future comments.
--
Paul Zerkel
'78 Eleganza II
Salisbury IL (near Springfield)

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

The Fiat/Chrysler is an all clutch (no bands) electronically controlled transmission. Looking at a previous van of mine using the sofyware, you could
see shift points, time taken, and the like. Which means the sift points would be settable. The PentaStar engine seems to be very flexible, it pulls
the van at highway speeds under 2k rpm, and picks a gear equal to the load come a hill or if yo want it to accelerate. Only question I'd have is are
the transmission internals up the the weight of a gmc.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Daniel Jacobs]

Johnny,

As you perhaps know, my european MH is a Fiat Ducato Maxi with the stickshifting, 150 HP.
It has the Fiat "head" with the ALKO chassis.
That combination is allowed, about 4500 kg for the max vehicle only, and with a trailer, 6000 kg.

But they do build also with the same engine Fiat with ALKO chassis with double rear axles, they are allowed to weight about 5500 max, and an max of
about 1000 kg for the trailer (or towd) ...

So I think going to the max of 6500 kg it would mean about 14330 pounds, when I am correct.
The 180 HP 3 ltr turbo-diesel could go a little higher I suppose, but not to much.

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

The inline 4 cyl 3 liter diesel is fitted to the ProMaster here. They also make (M-V makes) a V-6 3 liter diesel which usually appears with a
turbocharger. The PentaStar gas engine makes more power, and coupled to the modern transmission should be sufficient to move the GMC on off a light.
The ProMaster vans fitted with it move out nicely. This means every Dodge or Chrysler minivan from 2011 on is a potential donor for a drive line.
If there's someone who can massage it into a replacement front clip. Teddy Petty has a clip sitting out by his shop if someone wanted to get it from
him and experiment. It's beyond my capabilities, but surely there's a body who is up to it...

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Daniel Jacobs]

Oké, that bigger 6 cyl engine is not available in europe, but that could do a better job.
I think that will be a chrysler engine in origine? Or did they order a 6 cyl turbo diesel from IVECO who has also very nice engines and even nicer
full automated 7 speed transmissions. Their engines are also stronger then those from FIAT ...

Daniel
--
Daniel Jacobs, No GMC, but an admirer of them .... We'll see what the future brings ....

Always remember, the world is full of nice people!
So, if you can't find one, be one!

_______________________________________________

[Jon Roche]

Ran 2011-2013 v-6 RAM vans. We had 8 of them and Inwould not wish the engine/drive train on my worst enemy. We
Still have 5 of the 8. And 2 of those 5 we do not use any more and should be auctioned off this fall. NONE have more then 200k miles on them, and
most have experienced a tranny. Quite a few repairs I asked how service writer was able to look a mother of 4/5 kids in the face when he told them
how much the repairs cost. The engine and base tranny maybe ok, as they cover that on warantee and everything that goes wrong are non-warented
Items.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Mark Sawyer]

Not sure I'd want a transverse engine on anything doing heavy duty pulling...

Just throwing this out there, but the only other heavy duty, longitudinal drivetrain, front drive application I know of is some E-450 transit vans
were converted to FWD. They use them here at the State Fair of Texas as parking lot shuttles. The FWD lets them lower the van floor for ease of
entry. Some quick internet searching reveals they were common on transit busses in Canada as well. The Canadian ones are running old Navistar 7.3s
and have some sort of a Carraro H.S. drivetrain running forward to what looks like a heavy duty Dana front axle. Not sure if the State fair busses
also run the Carraro, but I can confirm by the sound they are definitely running 7.3s...

So as someone else here mentioned... Use a GM 1 Ton front end instead of the dana used on these fords powered by a driveshaft off of this Carraro
unit... Either use an adapter or maybe Carrero has a GM Bellhousing pattern available.

Hal had also mentioned using a NP205 converted for FWD operation as another drivetrain option to get power from a longitudinal mount engine to the
front wheels... Nice thing about that setup is NP205s are everywhere...

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f14/odd-e450-bus-set-up-310304/

Here's one that was up for auction just a few days ago. Went for 1800 Canadian... If the 7.3 runs well, you should easily be able to get 1800 just
for the engine. You'd end up with a nearly free drivetrain...

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=3&acctid=5511
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Mark Sawyer]

TR 1 wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 12:37

> Not sure I'd want a transverse engine on anything doing heavy duty pulling...
>
> Just throwing this out there, but the only other heavy duty, longitudinal drivetrain, front drive application I know of is some E-450 transit vans
> were converted to FWD. They use them here at the State Fair of Texas as parking lot shuttles. The FWD lets them lower the van floor for ease of
> entry. Some quick internet searching reveals they were common on transit busses in Canada as well. The Canadian ones are running old Navistar 7.3s
> and have some sort of a Carraro H.S. drivetrain running forward to what looks like a heavy duty Dana front axle. Not sure if the State fair busses
> also run the Carraro, but I can confirm by the sound they are definitely running 7.3s...
>
> So as someone else here mentioned... Use a GM 1 Ton front end instead of the dana used on these fords powered by a driveshaft off of this Carraro
> unit... Either use an adapter or maybe Carrero has a GM Bellhousing pattern available.
>
> Hal had also mentioned using a NP205 converted for FWD operation as another drivetrain option to get power from a longitudinal mount engine to the
> front wheels... Nice thing about that setup is NP205s are everywhere...
>
> http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f14/odd-e450-bus-set-up-310304/
>
> Here's one that was up for auction just a few days ago. Went for 1800 Canadian... If the 7.3 runs well, you should easily be able to get 1800
> just for the engine. You'd end up with a nearly free drivetrain...
>
> https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=3&acctid=5511

Doing some more research, it looks like Carraro just makes the front axle. These busses are running a 4R100, same as any other heavy duty ford from
that time... Would imagine then that they are running an NP205 as Hal suggested as well...

[Bruce Hislop]

There may be alot of Canadian reference to the ELF para-transit buses because of this company located not far from me:

http://www.overlandcustomcoach.com/

In the "About" part of their home page there is reference to their introduction of the ELF (Economical Low Floor) para-transit bus. I'm not sure if
they developed it or just were a Distributor for it.
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Keith V]

Man just take the Titian II and drop a GMC body on it.

How hard could it be??


http://www.overlandcustomcoach.com/titan-ii-lf

Titan II Low Floor Bus - Overland Custom Coach<http://www.overlandcustomcoach.com/titan-ii-lf>
www.overlandcustomcoach.com
The TITAN II LF (Low Floor) Passenger Capacity of up to 21 . The Glaval Titan II LF: Low Floor; Rear Wheel Drive; Purpose Built Chassis; Rugged Durability



________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 2:29:43 PM

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[A.]

Keith V wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 15:41

> Man just take the Titian II and drop a GMC body on it.
> How hard could it be??
>
> http://www.overlandcustomcoach.com/titan-ii-lf
>
> Titan II Low Floor Bus - Overland Custom Coach

> www.overlandcustomcoach.com
> The TITAN II LF (Low Floor) Passenger Capacity of up to 21 . The Glaval Titan II LF: Low Floor; Rear Wheel Drive; Purpose Built Chassis; Rugged
> Durability

That one is rear wheel drive.

What you want is front wheel drive:

http://dallassmithcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/brochures/f-450-f-550-superlowfloorchassis.pdf

[Mark Sawyer]

There you go... Looks like mostly Ford stuff, but I see a few GM chassis there...

Love to have an Allison 6 speed driving the front wheels on my GMC...

http://dallassmithcorp.com/products/specialty-vehicles/gallery-case-histories/#

I like the black F450 with the super single rear tire at the top of the page...

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Mark, other than the lack of traction - which we have now - what's the argument against a transverse front drive train?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Mark Sawyer]

I guess my main issue is there really aren't any "truly" heavy duty transverse engine transaxles out there... While the 4T80 may be an option, you're
really asking it to do way more than it was ever designed to do pulling a GMC and possibly a towd around. I worked for Manheim Auto Auctions back in
the 90s, and we had more than a few Caddys and Auroras with tranny issues come through... From what I remember, the casing just wasn't beefy enough
to support the torque.

Really, by a large margin, the strongest front drive transaxle out there, is the one we already have... At least as far as I am aware. But then,
compare even the TH425 to an Allison, or Ford 6R110, and I'm not a dodge guy, but whatever they use in the HD rams, and there is no contest. 1000
lbft of torque is no problem with those gearboxes. Not sure if a TH425 could be reasonably built to take that kind of torque, but I would bet it
would not be easy...

To go with a gearbox weaker than we have already, does not seem like an upgrade to me. Even with the added overdrive.

Just my opinion...

Now, whatever they run in those front drive Texas State Fair vans, I'd have no problem putting in anything I own that hauls a load... I tried to find
some pictures online but couldn't. Not only do they have the low floor bus chassis full of people, but they pull like a small train of 3 or so
trailers with people on them as well. 105 degree heat, all day long.

Here are some more shots of that Canadian Overland shuttle bus. The Texas vans really look similar. They're running 10 bolt axles on them:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/r-flores/sets/72157628119573157/

-If- I ever go through the effort of a drivetrain swap on my GMC, there is no way I'm going through all that work and $$ to put in something that's
not at least as tough as what I have in there already...

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Mark Sawyer]

To Mike: the original poster:

Been reading these engine swap threads and there was some mention at one time of using an LS motor backed up with a TH425, but there was of course the
issue with the oil pan having a halfshaft run through it...

Did you look into the Trailblazer SS Oil pan? Should bolt up to most LS engines...

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-pans/oil-pan-for-chevrolet-ssr-trailblazer-gmc-envoy-saab-7x-p-401.html?gclid=CI_wotGvtQCFYaCswodUegC4w&utm_campaign=googleproductsearchusen&utm_medium=product_search&utm_source=googleproductsearchusen

[Hal StClair]

Mike S wrote on Sat, 10 June 2017 09:30

> There seems to be some question about the strength of the 4T80e.
>
> Keep in mind the progression at GM.
>
> the 400/425 torque capacity morphed into the 4l80E/ 4T80E.
>
> The L (longitudal) 4L80e was the trans of choice in the big block trucks. And had a reasonable decent reputation.
>
> It was only the increase torque of the Duramax and 8.1 that a new, more robust trans was needed. The Allison.
>
> The internals of the 4t80E match the 4l80E. The same as the internals of the 400 match the 425.
>
> And yes. The chain is a limiter.
>
> The real enemy is HEAT under sustain max load. Synthetics and a temp gauge go a long way to battling that enemy!

Actually, the 4t80e is 'morphed' from the TH125 trans first used in the X bodies, I believe. A little light for our use I'd guess.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1975 Eleganza II, 101230

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout

[Mike Sadlon]

Mark
The real trouble isn't the motor to the trans, it's the diff interferes with the pan rail by 1/2".
One guy milled the panrail down and ground a hole in the diff and JB welded back shut.
I have the LS in place with the diff by clocking the trans 22 degrees. But it won't clear the step or hatch.

What your are looking at can be done, look at Hal's,

The goal of this is "bolt-in" under the hatch. So anyone could do it.

[A.]

TR 1 wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 16:48

> There you go... Looks like mostly Ford stuff, but I see a few GM chassis there...
>
> Love to have an Allison 6 speed driving the front wheels on my GMC...
>
> http://dallassmithcorp.com/products/specialty-vehicles/gallery-case-histories/#
>
> I like the black F450 with the super single rear tire at the top of the page...

The one I linked to has ABS.
Another advantage is lower toll charges. Only two axles.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/1/medium/Dallas_Smith_Ford_F450_ZFrame_LoFloor_Suspension_Overlay.jpg

[A.]

A Hamilto wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 11:44

> TR 1 wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 16:48
> > There you go... Looks like mostly Ford stuff, but I see a few GM chassis there...
> >
> > Love to have an Allison 6 speed driving the front wheels on my GMC...
> >
> > http://dallassmithcorp.com/products/specialty-vehicles/gallery-case-histories/#
> >
> > I like the black F450 with the super single rear tire at the top of the page...
>
> The one I linked to has ABS.
> Another advantage is lower toll charges. Only two axles.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/1/medium/Dallas_Smith_Ford_F450_ZFrame_LoFloor_Suspension_Overlay.jpg

Alternatively, if you want a 29' stretch, just make the GMC body 37" longer and drop it on the Ford chassis without shortening the Ford chassis.

[rich...@comcast.net]

Assuming that drawing of the Ford Chassis is close to reality. It would require redesign of fuel tankage and black water tank.

----- Original Message -----

From: "A." <mar...@netzero.com>
To: "gmclist" <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 9:57:16 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[A.]

richshoop wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 17:33

> Assuming that drawing of the Ford Chassis is close to reality. It would require redesign of fuel tankage and black water tank.

Yep. Other possibilities are; Connect the Ford front clip to the GMC rear frame and replace the spindles with something that will allow the rear
wheels to match the front. Try to retain the GMC front subframe and graft only the drivetrain components into it.

Certainly way more trouble that it is worth. But everything fun always is.

[rich...@comcast.net]

It would be safer to build a unique front clip that has the proper engine/trans support built in. Needs to be engineered. Before all that, need to find out if the longer term parts availability warrants the effort. Would something like this need to be passed through the DOT?

----- Original Message -----

From: "A." <mar...@netzero.com>
To: "gmclist" <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 4:43:51 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[A.]

richshoop wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 21:49
> ... Would something like this need to be passed through the DOT?...

Same as one-ton front end and rear disk brakes and reaction arms and body/frame stretches and....

[Hal Kading]

While we are making these changes, how about splitting the body down the middle and add 6 inches to the width. North NM Hal could give pointers on how
to do it.

Southern NM Hal

[Matt Colie]

richshoop wrote on Thu, 15 June 2017 22:49
> <snip>

> Would something like this need to be passed through the DOT?

DOT has nothing to say. You can build what ever you want. When you go to register it, your state's DVM might have something to say, but unless you
are going to sell it as production item (or you live in California) the government pretty much stops there.
I know three people (this is car country) that have built "Clean Paper" cars.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Ever see a Beechcraft Twin Bonanza?? :)

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Mike Hamm]

How about a carbon fiber body and frame to lighten the load and seal the leaks?
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

What ever happened to Mike S's transverse mounted 383 project? Any progress?
--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[Bruce Hislop via Gmclist]

Last time Mike S mentions a replacement engine is January 2018, here is the thread:

http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=328194&rid=1480#msg_328194

Links to new Olds block becoming available, here is that link:

https://rocketracingperformance.com/rrp-olds-block

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada

77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Todd Snyder via Gmclist]

Says $5k for a brand new bare block

--
Todd Snyder, Buffalo NY
1976 Eleganza II

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald via Gmclist]

Makes ya wonder if they'll do 455!

D C "Mac" Macdonald​
Amateur Radio K2GKK​
Since 30 November '53​
USAF and FAA, Retired​
Member GMCMI & Classics​
Oklahoma City, OK​
"The Money Pit"​
TZE166V101966

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Todd Snyder via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 16:35
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Todd Snyder

Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

[Adolph Santorine via Gmclist]

$5,000

American Money!

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

[Les Burt via Gmclist]

He is more active on Facebook than here. He often participates in engine transplant discussions there. IIRC, he stated that he hasn’t pursued the 383 project or any LS swap efforts due to lack of any serious interest from others.

Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'

[Dolph Santorine via Gmclist]

It’s great that there are new replacement parts available.

I have an Eagle brand crankshaft in my 455 which is .030 over.

It was not outrageously expensive, and let me use 0.0 spec bearings (and I don’t know if that’s local lingo, or the right way to say it).

I’m still trying to figure out if the first shortage we face will be engine parts or transmissions.

Right now, transmissions seems to be the Achilles heel.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

The transmissions will become a problem long before the 455 engines. There's lots of the engines out there to rebuild or reman, depending how you
phrase it. Transmission 'hard parts' are already scarce - mind, the 425 turns 'backwards'. Chains are limited to NOS and whatever Manny has left,
less than 20 as I understand it.
As I understand it, Mike's research shows that the 4T80E GM transaxle has the poon to withstand service in our coaches. Since it's transverse,
another engine which will hook up to it is necessary, he believes the 383 Chev truck motor is the answer.
There's lots of these transmissions out there, and parts are still available - and will be for years. The question becomes, what is needed to get the
package stuffed into a GMC. Given cubic money, not a problem. Given normal budget constraints, what's it gonna cost to develop?

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.

Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Matterofact, for those of us who were at the recent Dixielanders/Crabs rally, don't you think RCR could do this conversion fairly quickly? Wonder
what they'd charge.

[Adolph Santorine via Gmclist]

They likely wouldn’t look at it.

It’s not what they do, and they are obviously focused on the go fast mission.

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
Howell EFI/EBL , Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

Just took a look at the 4T80 and it seems to use a chain drive as well. Wonder if it would be suitable to adapt it to the TH425? Looks like it is a 1
inch chain, which is a little smaller than the one used on the 425, yes? Saw some high hp 4t80 applications where they even ran a double 4T80 chain
though, which may be an option...

If not, has anyone looked into reproducing the 425 chain?

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Drive chain is not the "missing link" in critical parts shortages for the
TM425. Gaskets, and very precision planetary gearsets that only fit that
application are.
Not just anyone possesses intimate knowledge of the transmission. Even
replacing/exchanging them is no walk in the park. I have R&R'd several of
them, and there are pitfalls along the way. I now leave it to younger
technicians with the experience and hoists and tools, (you really need all
three) to do the job.
If you are like Hal St.Clair, and are a great fabricator, you could
install a duramax or other diesel engine and adapt a heavy duty 4 x 4
automatic and custom drive shafts. As long as the two biggest factors are
present, time and money, almost anything is possible.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Well, I've done four R&R so far, one over a pit with a hoist and three on a pad. You only need to raise the coach about 20 inches and crib it and the
transmission lowers with Ken Henderson's fitting easily. It isn't quick - DIY project - but eminently do-able. Two people can do it in less than
half the time it takes one. George Z and I learned on one of mine.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Matt Colie via Gmclist]

James Hupy wrote on Sat, 06 July 2019 09:56

> Drive chain is not the "missing link" in critical parts shortages for the TM425. Gaskets, and very precision planetary gearsets that only fit that
> application are.

> <Snip>

When you need a gasket that you can't get, let me know. It is almost a given that a suitable material can be found, then all you need is a friendly
rule die shop to make the tool.

Gears, that is a whole other story....

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES

Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan

OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

Manny (mostly) and I did a TH425 R&R in 45 minutes in a parking lot.

Ken H.

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

But, Manny is unique among men. Similar to Mickey Mantle, or Babe Ruth.
There are not many among us like him.
Jim Hupy

[Todd Sullivan via Gmclist]

If there was a t425 rnr world championship competition he would be the
favorite.

Sully
Bellevue wa

[Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist]

Are you sure 4t65E-HD would be able to survive in our coaches for too long? It is rated for vehicles with GVW up to 6,400 lbs. and a maximum trailer
towing capacity of 2,000 lbs. Even if you are being generous and "assume" that trailer towing capacity is in addition to the vehicle GVW, the
combined rated weight (CGVW) will be only 8,400 lbs. Last time I checked, 23-footers are 10,500-11,500 lbs and 26-footers are somewhere around
11,000-12,500 lbs. This exceeds transmission rating by 25 and nearly 50% (23 and 26 ft respectively).
--
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

The idea was/is the 4T80E, somewhat more robust than the 64, although still gonna be on the ragged edge. For that matter, so is the THM425 in a
coach, but they seem to survive.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell