[GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement

[KB]

I just stumbled upon this youtube video about replacing our whole lower steering shaft assembly
with a new fixed shaft and u-joints from Borgeson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxgtqSMwjgQ

This was posted by Jim Fawcett I think, but I can't find any more info anywhere about it.
Given that we have considerable slop in the splined steering shaft, this looks interesting.

Anybody have further leads or information??

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
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[Ken Henderson]

Great find, Karen! That's the sort of substitution we're going to have to
resort to more and more as our toys age.

Thanks to you, and Jim Fawcett,

Ken H.

[KB]

I should correct what I wrote: the new universal shaft in between the two u-joints is a collapsible design, for safety.

On the original steering column, the manual just says it is an "energy absorbing" design and that the bracket that holds it
to the instrument panel is designed to break away. I'm not sure what the original blue plastic coated splined shaft was for
since it doesn't seem like it could collapse much, but maybe other folks can shed more light on that.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

I have the same stuff on my roadster. Good stuff, very precise, robust and NO slop. NONE. The 'collapsible shaft' is the DD shafting with a nylon
pin that shears in an accident to allow it to collapse. The standard slip shafting is very robust, slides smooth and has NO play. It's more robust
that any auto you've ever seen.

Flaming River is another company with similar products. Almost every street rod in the world uses these things.

The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to this big honking
thing back to standard size stuff.

The only question in my mind is how Alex will be able to center the boxes? He'll have to make a new fixture. :)
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Steve Southworth]

KB wrote on Sun, 02 November 2014 19:53

> I should correct what I wrote: the new universal shaft in between the two u-joints is a collapsible design, for safety.
>
> On the original steering column, the manual just says it is an "energy absorbing" design and that the bracket that holds it
> to the instrument panel is designed to break away. I'm not sure what the original blue plastic coated splined shaft was for
> since it doesn't seem like it could collapse much, but maybe other folks can shed more light on that.
>
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'

Based on its location and orientation it would appear to be there to compensate for frame to body assembly dimension variations (after all it was 70's
vehicle mfring) and to allow movement between the chassis and the body.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[Robert Mueller]

Steve,

Agreed!

Alex mentioned at the Chippewa Convention that he ran across one GMC with a frozen slip shaft (blue), he noted that the steering box
input splines were worn so much that the yoke moved up and down. As the yoke moved up and down it wore the bolt. The bolt was nearly
worn through and was close to falling out, had that happened the lower steering column could have detached from the steering box
input and the coach would not have had ANY STEERING!

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Southworth

Based on its location and orientation it would appear to be there to compensate for frame to body assembly dimension variations
(after all it was 70's vehicle mfring) and to allow movement between the chassis and the body.
--
Steve

[Robert Mueller]

Kerry,

Why is the OEM unit so robust - my guess that it wasn't designed for the GMC and is used in other applications.

You have noted that it will allow to collapse in a crash, will it compensate for the changes in the body to frame distance as you
drive down the road?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: Kerry Pinkerton

I have the same stuff on my roadster. Good stuff, very precise, robust and NO slop. NONE. The 'collapsible shaft' is the DD
shafting with a nylon pin that shears in an accident to allow it to collapse. The standard slip shafting is very robust, slides
smooth and has NO play. It's more robust that any auto you've ever seen.

Flaming River is another company with similar products. Almost every street rod in the world uses these things.

The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to
this big honking thing back to standard size stuff.

The only question in my mind is how Alex will be able to center the boxes? He'll have to make a new fixture. :)
--
Kerry

[Ken Burton]

I like what I see but I haven't figured it out completely. Is there a slip joint somewhere to take up the motion between the body and the frame? Do
you order the upper and lower u-joints plus a shaft separately and then assemble? There was some reference to cutting a shaft 14" that I also did not
understand.






--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Ken, the double D (DD) shaft consists of a racetrack shaped 'male' shaft and a similar shaped 'female' shaft. Obviously they slide easily together.
They are MUCH more robust that the typical steering columns currently in production. They come in several lengths but 18" is the most common, you get
a male and female piece and cut to length.

Here is a link to the Borgeson web site. Lots of good info.

http://www.borgeson.com/

YOu can get the Ujoints with any spline I've ever heard of on one end and the same or another on the other OR a DD shaft. It's pretty easy to mix and
match to get from whatever to whatever. On my roadster, I went from a 47 Chevy column to a 96 Corvette rack. I had to use a double Ujoint on the
rack to make the angle and used a support bearing because there is more than two ujoints. NO play what-so-ever in the linkage. NONE! The ujoints
use a very nice needle bearings that are just incredibility smooth. I should have a Ujoint and some DD shafting left over if anyone wants to see it.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Kerry Pinkerton]

USAussie wrote on Sun, 02 November 2014 21:32
> ...You have noted that it will allow to collapse in a crash, will it compensate for the changes in the body to frame distance as you
> drive down the road?


Rob, it depends on what you choose. The collapsible stuff is not designed to move unless 'crushed' enough to shear the 1/8" plastic pin. The DD
stuff will easily slide through each other and would easily move in/out to compensate for movement between the frame and the steering column/body.

When I was first starting on my roadster the plan was to use a MOPAR column and a Jag front end. I was talking to the Boregson folks at the Street
Rod Nationals and was asking them about this spline or that spline and the rep said. "Don't sweat it, we have ujoints that fit EVERYTHING!"

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Ken Henderson]

Kerry,

I presume the nylon shear pin does not have to remain intact, so that our
body-frame movement is OK?

I don't see any need for a change in Alex's procedure -- it's primarily
based on the steering box input shaft flat. All the rest is just to align
the wheel with that flat. In fact, this should make it easier since
there's apparently no necessity to align a clamp bolt with a notch.

Ken H.

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinke...@mchsi.com>
wrote:

> ​​
> I have the same stuff on my roadster. Good stuff, very precise, robust
> and NO slop. NONE. The 'collapsible shaft' is the DD shafting with a nylon
> pin that shears in an accident to allow it to collapse. The standard
> slip shafting is very robust, slides smooth and has NO play. It's more
> robust
> that any auto you've ever seen.
>

​...​

> The only question in my mind is how Alex will be able to center the
> boxes? He'll have to make a new fixture. :)
> --
>

[Ken Burton]

Thanks Kerry for the explanation. Now I understand.

1. I see on their web site that the maximum angle on their u-joint is 35 degrees. After that you need a double u-joint. I'm wondering what the
angle is on our upper joint.

2. Also they are offering polished shafts. I'm wondering if polishing is something for functionality or strictly for show.

3. When trimming the shafts do you trim the double d ends or the splined ends going into the u-joints?

4. Does the double D connection get lubricated (greased)?

5. Is there some indexing done between the u-joint and the splined shafts of the steering column and the of the steering box? Those splined shafts
currently are hollowed out and the clamp bolt only goes in with the collar indexed correctly.

Lot of dumb questions.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Rick Drummond]

This is exactly what I need to replace on mine (thanks to Alex's inspection), so now I have the choice of the OEM shaft and possibly the CV joint or this type of after-market setup.
I'm going to make my decision based on Performance, Strength, Safety, and Integrity (not necessarily in that order) vs just $$$. What's the opinion of the experienced and knowledgable folks here?

Rick

Rick&Tammy Drummond
Prior Lake MN
'74 (re)Painted Desert

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 01:04

> 1. I see on their web site that the maximum angle on their u-joint is 35 degrees. After that you need a double u-joint. I'm wondering what the
> angle is on our upper joint.

I'll try and measure it after while but my eyeball says it's pretty close to 35 degrees. That said, a more compact (shorter) ujoint will lessen the
angle.

Below are some left over components from my roadster because I changed things after I had purchased them. Below my finger (for scale) is a double
Ujoint. Above is a single Ujoint and you can see the shape of the DD shaft.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56385-borgeson-components-on.html


Quote:

> 2. Also they are offering polished shafts. I'm wondering if polishing is something for functionality or strictly for show.

Show. If your street rod has a big Chevy engine and lots of bling, you're golden.

Quote:

> 3. When trimming the shafts do you trim the double d ends or the splined ends going into the u-joints?

Normally you trim the DD.

Quote:

> 4. Does the double D connection get lubricated (greased)?

Yes, see the grease zerk in this photo?

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56389-borgeson-components-on-my-roadster.html


Quote:

> 5. Is there some indexing done between the u-joint and the splined shafts of the steering column and the of the steering box? Those splined
> shafts currently are hollowed out and the clamp bolt only goes in with the collar indexed correctly.

The Ujoints themselves are indexed so they are 'phased' correctly. That is, it's hard to mess them up.

This is a non stainless (flaming river I think) joint going into the Corvette rack.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p56391-borgeson-components-on-my-roadster.html


Note, on these Ujoints, the attachment is two set screws with jamb nuts. You drill a dimple in the shaft, tighten the set screw, and lock down the
jamb nut. Some folks use locktite also....I will.

I don't recall seeing an aftermarket Ujoint with a pin clamp like ours. One other point of information is that the fear of things falling apart isn't
really an issue because you build the linkage with very little 'compression' (other than the collapsible link which you treat as a fixed length).
That is, there isn't enough in and out movement to allow anything to come out of the Ujoints even if the fastening mechanisms were to fail. For
instance, if you want 2" of movement, your shaft needs to have 6" inches of movement. This way, at maximum extension, there is still plenty of
'bearing surface'. That is, you still have plenty of the male/female shafting engaged. On my roadster, I have to loosen my steering column clamps
and slide it back in order to remove the steering shaft because I use the collapsible shaft that is fixed length unless there is ever an impact.
There are a couple ways to accomplish this. One would be to allow the shaft to collapse enough to assemble both splined ends and then use a bolt to
lock one end of the DD shafting to restrict the movement so it can't come out of the splines. Look at the lower end of the female shaft in my photo,
you'll see a thru bolt that keeps the shaft at a given minimum length.

On the GMC with splines on both ends there is going to be a challenge to get the, as Alex says, "steering straight". I'd THINK you want to set your
box and wheels correct and straight ahead, set your steering wheel straight, then assemble the shaft to the closest splines. Minute steering wheel
positions can be done via an adjustable drag link or by tweeking the tie rod ends.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Keith V]

The DD idea would absolutely work if you have the sliding joint option.
If you don't you will mess things up. Probably both the steering box and the steering column.

My coach had a frozen slip joint and I could hear and feel the shaft hammering the steering column on every bump.
I cleaned mine up but thought about the DD option, as Like Kerry I have a street rod with it.
But the U joints are EXPENSIVE as is the shaft. I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a whole
lotta $$. I think it would be cheaper to just get a new shaft from Jim K
--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Billy Massey]

Here is what Jim Fawcett bought last year to replace his steering column
linkage:

014349 steering column u-joint $79.71
015240 steering box u-joint $79.71
450024 telescoping shaft $78.92


Gil Evans
Borgeson Universal Company
91 Technology Park Drive
Torrington, CT 06790 USA
(860)482-8283
(860)496-9320 FAX
g...@borgeson.com
www.facebook.com/BorgesonUniversalCompany


hth
bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 5:46 PM

I just stumbled upon this youtube video about replacing our whole lower
steering shaft assembly with a new fixed shaft and u-joints from Borgeson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxgtqSMwjgQ

This was posted by Jim Fawcett I think, but I can't find any more info
anywhere about it.
Given that we have considerable slop in the splined steering shaft, this
looks interesting.

Anybody have further leads or information??

[Steve Southworth]

Keith V wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:46

> But the U joints are EXPENSIVE as is the shaft. I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a
> whole lotta $$. I think it would be cheaper to just get a new shaft from Jim K

Fawcett parts 239
GMC supplier replacement 600

--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

[KB]

Bdub: You beat me to it! I just wrote to Borgeson for the part numbers and that's exactly what they told me too. They probably responded so fast
because they'd already answered your question :)

thanks
Karen

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Keith V wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:46

> T... I think if you have a sliding joint you'd want stainless left it get rusty, DD stainless is a whole lotta $$. ...



The original wasn't stainless and hasn't really deteriorated that much. I'd think some good paint would do it. I'd probably drill a through hole
through the bottom of the Ujoint and the DD shaft and insert a bolt just to be sure it can't fall out if the set screws somehow let go.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[KB]

just searching the borgeson site; the telescoping shaft is only available in steel,
but both u-joints are available in stainless. Change the first digit of the part number from 0 to 1.
ie, 015240 in steel = 115240 in stainless. 014349 in steel = 114349 in stainless.
Only adds about $30 to the total cost.

They also have a vibration damping u-joint, if that would help. I think this would replace the upper 1"48x3/4DD joint.
If so, the stainless version is #154943 ($133.64) or plain steel #034943 ($116.04). (vs ~$76 for the plain steel non-damping version).
Should verify these numbers before ordering, and I don't know if the vibration damping is needed or not.
Thoughts?

Also, the prices on the borgeson site are list; can get these a little cheaper elsewhere.

Karen
1975 26'

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I am NOT poo pooing this idea, however, before everyone runs off and buys these parts keep in mind that the under hood area of a GMC
is drowned in water when it rains and the telescoping shaft is NOT available in SS. I had a quick chat with Gil Evans at Borgeson
and he advised that the telescoping shaft is drawn and that he doubted that the manufacturer would even consider making it in SS.

To prevent the outer from rusting the outer slip shaft could be painted / plated but the inner shaft could only be greased as it is
a precise fit in the ID of the outer tube.

I have revised the info below to include the steel and SS parts.

014349 steering column u-joint $79.71

114349 SS steering column u-joint $92.60

015240 steering box u-joint $79.71

115240 SS steering box u-joint $92.60
450024 telescoping shaft $78.92 - NOT AVAILABLE in SS
Total: Steel: $238.04 SS: $264.12

OEM lower steering column from Dave Lenzi: $290

http://www.bdub.net/lenzi/index.html#Steering_Shaft

Rebuilt CV joint from JimK: $140

http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/782

Total: $430

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[Keith V]

Flaming river has a stainless telescoping shaft in various lengths

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0008/s0001

But yeah, wow, the borgson solution is a lot cheaper than the stock replacement!

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[KB]

another point to consider... it seems to me if you have a telescoping shaft, you'd want the outer sleeve to be at the top, and the inner shaft to be
at the bottom to minimize the amount of water that collects between the two. Or is there some compelling reason to have it the other way?

I think (though have to verify) that the previously given part numbers would have the smaller shaft pointing upwards, so any water that gets on it
will run down the shaft and into the outer sleeve at the bottom.

Assuming the splined shaft coming off the bottom of the steering column (up by the firewall) is 1"-48, and
the one coming out of the top of the steering box at the bottom is 13/16-36, then I think the part numbers would be:

Upper:
1"DDx1"-48: 014352 (plain steel) or 114352 (stainless)

Lower:
3/4DDx13/16"-36: 014940 (plain steel) or 114940 (stainless),
or for a vibration reducing U-joint instead: 034940 (plain steel), 154940 (stainless)

plus the same 24" telescoping DD steel shaft trimmed to length: # 450024

[KB]

interesting... Dave Lenzi's info says "New Spicer steering shaft With lower universal joint" meaning there must be a source for new versions of the
OEM stuff, at least the lower part. Or is a "spicer steering shaft" a different animal? And is $290 a current price? Assuming we're talking about
the same parts, it's quite a bit more here: http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/781

Part of the question is not just about price. Manufacturing and automobiles have come a long way in the last 40 years.
Is there a reasonable bolt-in solution at a reasonable price that will work noticeably better than the original design?
To me, that's the hard question. If I have to go to the trouble and expense of fixing this thing, I want it to count.

Karen
1975 26'

[Ken Burton]

Another thing I learned a long time ago. We always had a problem with Cleveland brakes on aircraft rusting the caliper slide pins. They sit out in
the rain and get a soaking anytime there is any water on the runway or taxiway. They also get wet when the aircraft is parked in the rain. Every
year we would have to disassemble, clean, polish, and lube the pins.

A coating of anti-seize on the pins solved the problem. Now we look at them once every 5 years or so.

I'm suggesting that an anti-seize coating be applied to the DD slip joint on assembly. That stuff really sticks to the surfaces. You could still
grease the joint after installation if desired.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

If you look at this page: http://www.bdub.net/lenzi/index.html you will see that Dave sells a direct replacement for the OEM lower
steering column with one difference; the seal at the top on the OEM part was cork, the new ones is a rubber compound of some sort. I
don't know if the price is current or not.

What exactly is wrong with your lower steering column?

1) If there is too much slop in the CV joint Rick Denny discovered that the balls are not 5/8" (0.625) they are actually (0.624)
therefore you could buy 5/8" (0.625) and see if that fixes it. You might have to do some custom fitting.

2) If the blue coating is worn here's a link to a fix written by Frank Condos: http://www.gmcws.org/techcenter/97-03tc17.html

3) If the lower "U" joint is worn it can be replaced with Precision Universal Kit #338 from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Precision-Drivelines-338-U-Joint/dp/B009HQI460

4) If the splines that mate with the steering box are worn you might be able to heat the yoke up and squeeze it enough to tighten it
up a bit.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: KB

interesting... Dave Lenzi's info says "New Spicer steering shaft With lower universal joint" meaning there must be a source for new
versions of the OEM stuff, at least the lower part. Or is a "spicer steering shaft" a different animal? And is $290 a current
price? Assuming we're talking about the same parts, it's quite a bit more here: http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/781

Part of the question is not just about price. Manufacturing and automobiles have come a long way in the last 40 years.
Is there a reasonable bolt-in solution at a reasonable price that will work noticeably better than the original design?
To me, that's the hard question. If I have to go to the trouble and expense of fixing this thing, I want it to count.

Karen

[Jim Bounds]

I think I talked with Jim about this part back at Coos Bay, I do feel
looking outside the box for replacement parts for some of the stuff that
has simply dropped off the parts listings because mainly there isn't enough
call for the manufacturers to continue to produce the stuff. To my
knowledge there are no "new" original parts for the steering shaft
assembly. The upper CV was used for a time by Volvo Truck but it too went
away. We have been getting really low on inventory on the original shaft
assemblies and when I saw Jim's set up I wanted to hear more about it. I
thanked him for coming up with it and copied it down then.

Frankly, I have been sort of waiting for the braintrust for suspension
stuff to bat this around a bit. Investigating new ideas takes labor and
expertice, I look to everyone to pitch in and help proving up some of
these. Mods that make it past the "shade tree" support can help the
community, specifically when the original part has become difficult to
support repairs with. There are several good cross reference parts and
this one is coming at a good time.

It's not the price of it, don't catch yourself buying cheaper-- no it's the
fact that there is a quality alternative that can be reproduced. That's
the difference, I don't want a replacement part that itself is hard to find
and hard to use. I want "off shelf" and that looks like what we have
here.

As far as integrating it into our alignment procedures, we check alignment
on every steering box before we install them-- that procedure is in the
book. After the box is documented straight on, connecting the steering
column to the box is a matter of semantics.

Now that the part has been "run up the pole", I'll tell Blaine you said
hello Jim and again thanks for looking around.

Jim Bounds
----------------------

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Robert Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
wrote:

[Billy Massey]

FYI

In an exchange with Jim Fawcett:
We're wondering what you think about the setup since you've been using it
for over a year now. How does water intrusion affect the sliding mechanism?
We've talked about possibly using the DD tube on top and the shaft below so
that water would channel away rather than in. We found those parts are
available at Borgeson. Also, we found a stainless steel DD rod available at
Flaming River. Do you see any need for these mods or not?

He replied:
I really like the Boargsen steering assembly that I installed last year and
I found it to work flawlessly. There is a rubber boot that seals moisture
between the two shafts and you certainly can install the outer portion on
top if you wish I simply packed the channel with grease and I've had no
problems. There's very little movement between the end of the steering
column shaft and the gearbox so the collapsible portion of the double D has
hardly any movement. Again there's always something you can change but I'm
happy with the way things are. And the price.... well you just can't beat
it.
===================================

Karen! Do this mod and let us know how it works out. :-)

bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 6:30 PM

another point to consider... it seems to me if you have a telescoping
shaft, you'd want the outer sleeve to be at the top, and the inner shaft to
be at the bottom to minimize the amount of water that collects between the
two. Or is there some compelling reason to have it the other way?

I think (though have to verify) that the previously given part numbers would
have the smaller shaft pointing upwards, so any water that gets on it will
run down the shaft and into the outer sleeve at the bottom.

Assuming the splined shaft coming off the bottom of the steering column (up
by the firewall) is 1"-48, and the one coming out of the top of the steering
box at the bottom is 13/16-36, then I think the part numbers would be:

Upper:
1"DDx1"-48: 014352 (plain steel) or 114352 (stainless)

Lower:
3/4DDx13/16"-36: 014940 (plain steel) or 114940 (stainless), or for a
vibration reducing U-joint instead: 034940 (plain steel), 154940 (stainless)

plus the same 24" telescoping DD steel shaft trimmed to length: # 450024

[KB]

I think the upper CV on ours is acceptable. I've already gone down that route of dis-assembly, inspection, and grease (and then trying to get it back
together in the correct orientation...) The assembly between the upper joint and the steering box is worn on ours, and this looks like a common
problem to me.
A previous owner already went down the route of inserting shims down the splines to try and take up the slack, but it's still pretty sloppy. Also
looks like somebody hammered on the yoke where the lower U-joint is mounted. I could replace it, or pull it, epoxy the plastic coating, replace the
lower u-joint, etc, but I'm not convinced it'll stay tight for long.
Seems like the original design, especially that plastic coating to take up the slack in a constantly sliding joint, is just not very durable
(especially when constantly drenched in water...) Maybe it's "good enough" for the purpose, but it doesn't hurt to think about alternatives.

I have to take apart our upper column anyway because the tilt mechanism is partially wedged and there's an annoying squeak. That got me to go print
out your most excellent document about inspecting the steering (THANK YOU for doing that, btw) and look at the possibilities for parts for the rest.
I don't know yet what approach to take, but this new stuff looks promising to me.

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'


A

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I called Peter Bailey down in Adelaide as he has a GMC that has not been converted to RHD. He is happy for me to fly down there with
my Jerry Work alignment tools and work with him to put together a set of step by step photographs on how to position the steering
box on "top dead center" with the front wheels pointed straight ahead, the steering wheel in the correct orientation, the lower
steering column assembly (clocked) correctly, the relay lever oriented correctly, and the tie rod ends set equally. He has a GMC
that has not been converted to RHD.

The lower steering columns (Spicer shaft) in both Double Trouble and The Blue Streak and I have a spare I bought of eBay just in
case so I am not personally interested in this mod.

HOWEVER, if someone over there is interested in purchasing the parts; and making them fit in a GMC and sending them to me I would be
willing to take them to Adelaide when Peter and I will put together a second set of photos as noted above with the Borgeson parts to
assist the community. They pay the shipping to Australia and I would pay the shipping back to the USA. The parts could be shipped in
a PVC plumbing tube with one removable end.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Billy Massey
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 4:04 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement

FYI

In an exchange with Jim Fawcett:
We're wondering what you think about the setup since you've been using it
for over a year now. How does water intrusion affect the sliding mechanism?
We've talked about possibly using the DD tube on top and the shaft below so
that water would channel away rather than in. We found those parts are
available at Borgeson. Also, we found a stainless steel DD rod available at
Flaming River. Do you see any need for these mods or not?

He replied:

I really like the Borgeson steering assembly that I installed last year and

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

I'm going to disagree with you slightly and say and add the following to your statement "that plastic coating to take up the slack
in a constantly sliding joint, is just not very durable" - WHEN NOT GREASED AT THE PROPER INTERVAL.

Ref: MM-X-7525 page 0-6 General Information / ENGINE, CHASSIS, AND BODY MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE

WHEN TO PERFORM SERVICES Item SERVICES
(Months or Miles, Whichever Occurs First) No (For Details, See Numbered Paragraphs

Every 3 months or 3,000 miles 1 Chassis Lubrication

As noted in my previous email there is a difference between the OEM blue slip shaft the current production and that is the seal at
the top of the shaft; the OEM it is cork and the new one I examined at Dave Lenzi's table was a rubber compound. I'd say they made
that change because shafts that were not greased regularly rusted solid as noted here on occasion!

After reading your note below about Primitive Pete beating on the lower yoke to tighten it up I thought that it might be a better
idea just to try and crush the yoke a bit in a press to tighten it up before heating it up. The one in Double Trouble was loose and
worn but I was able to tighten it up enough by replacing the 7/16 NC coarse bolt with a 7/16 NF bolt and torquing it like beyond the
70 ft lb spec. I have no idea how much torque I applied to that bolt but I am SURE it was above the 70 ft lb spec. Now that I
reflect on doing that I realize that's not a good thing to do because the bolt could shear and that would NOT be fun!

Thanks for the compliment; hopefully I will be able to update that procedure to include setting the steering box on "top dead
center."

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426



-----Original Message-----
From: KB

I think the upper CV on ours is acceptable. I've already gone down that route of dis-assembly, inspection, and grease (and then
trying to get it back together in the correct orientation...) The assembly between the upper joint and the steering box is worn on
ours, and this looks like a common problem to me. A previous owner already went down the route of inserting shims down the splines
to try and take up the slack, but it's still pretty sloppy. Also looks like somebody hammered on the yoke where the lower U-joint
is mounted. I could replace it, or pull it, epoxy the plastic coating, replace the lower u-joint, etc, but I'm not convinced it'll
stay tight for long.
Seems like the original design, especially that plastic coating to take up the slack in a constantly sliding joint, is just not very
durable
(especially when constantly drenched in water...) Maybe it's "good enough" for the purpose, but it doesn't hurt to think about
alternatives.

I have to take apart our upper column anyway because the tilt mechanism is partially wedged and there's an annoying squeak. That
got me to go print out your most excellent document about inspecting the steering (THANK YOU for doing that, btw) and look at the
possibilities for parts for the rest.

I don't know yet what approach to take, but this new stuff looks promising to me.

thanks,
Karen

[KB]

I just found a pinch bolt u-joint from flaming river that might be a better solution for the lower joint that bolts to the steering box:
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0005/s0007/FR2719DD

I thinks this might solve two problems: 1) it would (hopefully) exactly fit the lower existing notched splined shaft (at the top of the steering box)
without modification, and 2) would provide something of a safety at the bottom of the sliding DD shaft since you have to notch the shaft to fit the
pinch bolt (ie, would keep the joint from falling off the bottom of the shaft even if the bolt was a little loose).

Haven't found an equivalent from Borgeson yet.

Karen

[KB]

bit of a snag: the Flaming River u-joints are apparently only good to 30 degrees (per their specs). The Borgeson will go to 35 degrees without
binding.
Don't know if you can mix and match joints on the shaft.

As far as I can tell, that upper joint angle is at least 35 degrees, but it's tough to measure. Maybe other folks could have a go at measuring it
with better tools than what I've got. Clearly the Borgeson joints will work since Jim F already installed one, but I don't know if the Flaming River
ones will.


Karen
1975 26'

[Jim Bounds]

I have the same set up Jim is running -- got it in stainless-- for a
checkout. Will be in soon and I'll let you know what we find.

Jim Bounds
----------------------------

[KB]

just an update:

You CAN mix and match various manufacturers u-joints with the DD shafts. They're a standard size. Eg, you can put a Flaming River u-joint on a
Borgeson DD shaft (I asked).
The sizes we're dealing with are quite common: the upper shaft is a standard GM steering column (1"-48) and the lower is a standard old style "big
GM" power steering size (13/16"-36).
(later GM steering boxes are 3/4" or in some cases, 17mm)

The Borgeson DD slip shaft does NOT come with a grease zerk (though no reason you couldn't add one yourself). The flaming river ones probably do but
are nearly double the price.

You can get a stainless inner slip shaft, but the outer sleeve is still just steel. More money of course.
The biggest difference between manufacturers on the slip shaft seems to be the rubber boot they supply.
I wouldn't be surprised to find there was only one source for the steel.

We only need about 10" on the slip shaft, so (in theory) you might be able to get more than one shaft out of a single order (though would need extra
boots).

I had hoped this awesome looking ready-made solution from Flaming River would work, but the upper joint is only good to 30 degrees (per their specs)
and I'm pretty sure our upper joint is 35 (or more).
Might work, might not:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fla-fr1857-16/overview/

Borgeson u-joints are good to 35 degrees, and we already know they work here.

The pinch-bolt type u-joints do require notching the shaft for the shoulder bolt to clear (a good thing), so probably a good fit for our lower
u-joint.

So, my current shopping list:
upper u-joint: Borgeson 1"-48x1"DD (stainless: #114352)
DD slip shaft (Borgeson 450024 or others)
lower u-joint: Flaming River 13/16"-36 x 3/4DD pinch-bolt u-joint (stainless: FR2719DD)

I think there are a lot of possible solutions. Thanks to Jim Fawcett for heading down this path and figuring out the sizes.

[KB]

I look forward to hearing what you find Jim.
Thinking I'll go ahead and order the flaming river pinch bolt u-joint and see how it works on our shaft.

thanks,
Karen

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Karen, one thing that popped into my mind regarding the pinch joint units. These will only go onto the male splines in ONE position. Once there, the
DD shaft orientation is locked down by the other end of the upper U-joint. Same as the upper end of the lower U-joint. That means the splines and
groves on the steering box HAVE to go where the U-joint requires them to be because of the groove.

I have no idea if the grooves and splines on the steering column and steering box are parallel. My concern with this is that it may be more difficult
to center the steering box. Now if you only did the TOP, you'd be sure it wouldn't fall out and the lower could be the set screw type. Even if they
got loose, it wouldn't come off.

Just a thought.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Jim Bounds]

Made a mistake on my last post--- I have ordered the same parts, they are
not here yet. I want to source after market parts we use if possible from
the same vendor. I ordered the SS joints, so little difference in cost hey
why not. The steel ones will probably last longer than you and I will care
anyway-- the stainless is just the right amount of overkill. In that this
unit has been field tested for a year with good results that's the set up I
wanna go with---- no surprises...

This is a great find, there are several other parts in the same shape.
Currently we are rebuilding the things we cannot buy new, crossing to other
reliable replacement parts is a good thing. Just one more off the
endangered species list makes room for the ones to come.

You also must understand the original steering shaft assembly needs
servicing every couple of years--- the CV boot tears and lets water screw
up the irreplaceable upper CV. When that blue insulation peals off you are
really done for. If this new one will go 10 years without servicing hey,
that's a win itself!

Jim Bounds
------------------------

[KB]

Thanks Kerry. I've ordered a pinch bolt u-joint from Jegs (excellent return policy...) so we'll see how it fits the lower shaft when it gets here.

I'd have liked to do a pinch bolt joint at the top for exactly the reasons you mention, but only Flaming River makes them, and theirs are only good to
30 degrees.
I'll try to eyeball the max bend of the bottom u-joint I ordered and see if one might work at the top either instead of or in addition to the lower
one.

I noticed that drop-in solution they make (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fla-fr1857-16/overview) uses a pinch bolt at the bottom joint, so for
lack of a better clue, figure that's a thing to at least try. That item uses a different style shaft though, which probably allows more flexibility
in orientation.

thanks
Karen
1975 26'

[Robert Mueller]

Kerry,

Something else popped into my mind. You had noted earlier in this thread:

"The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to
this big honking thing back to standard size stuff."

To which I responded:

"Why is the OEM unit so robust - my guess that it wasn't designed for the GMC and is used in other applications."

I've thought of another reason:

It was designed to be able to take the torque required to steer a GMC if you loose power steering?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426



-----Original Message-----

From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 6:04 AM
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement

[KB]

but then it seems all the other "standard" sized stuff would be the weakest link.

Karen
1975 26'



[quote title=USAussie wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 13:08]Kerry,

Something else popped into my mind. You had noted earlier in this thread:

"The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to
this big honking thing back to standard size stuff."

To which I responded:

"Why is the OEM unit so robust - my guess that it wasn't designed for the GMC and is used in other applications."

I've thought of another reason:

It was designed to be able to take the torque required to steer a GMC if you loose power steering?

-

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

I'm sorry but that's not an assumption I would make.

Before I put this setup on any coach I owned I would measure the amount of torque it takes to turn the GMC steering wheel full lock
left to full lock right and contact Borgeson and Flaming River and have them confirm that their parts can handle the torque
measured.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: KB

but then it seems all the other "standard" sized stuff would be the weakest link.

Karen

[Robert Mueller]

Oops! Should have "said"

Before I put this setup on any coach I owned I would measure the amount of torque it takes to turn the GMC steering wheel full lock

left to full lock right "WITH THE GMC STATIONARY ON PAVEMENT" and contact Borgeson and Flaming River and have them confirm that

their parts can handle the torque measured.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426



-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Mueller [mailto:robmu...@iinet.net.au]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:56 AM
To: 'gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org'
Subject: RE: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement

Karen,

I'm sorry but that's not an assumption I would make.

Before I put this setup on any coach I owned I would measure the amount of torque it takes to turn the GMC steering wheel full lock
left to full lock right and contact Borgeson and Flaming River and have them confirm that their parts can handle the torque
measured.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: KB

but then it seems all the other "standard" sized stuff would be the weakest link.

Karen

[KB]

Borgeson uses these same parts on their heavy duty truck kits, and they are street legal replacements.

Karen
1975 26'

[Keith V]

KB wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 15:54

> but then it seems all the other "standard" sized stuff would be the weakest link.
>
>

> -


Standard size??
Where is the standard size parts?
only the tie rod ends IMHO

The steering gear is huge, the drag link is huge, it's all huge

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Kerry Pinkerton]

USAussie wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 17:05
> ...Before I put this setup on any coach I owned I would measure the amount of torque it takes to turn the GMC steering wheel full lock
> left to full lock right "WITH THE GMC STATIONARY ON PAVEMENT" ...


Say the steering wheel is 24" in diameter (most are less), that means you have at most a 12" lever. There ain't no way in hell that you, or me, or
Hulk Hogan or even El Presidenti has the arm strength to twist the DD shaft or break one of these Ujoints using a 12" level. No way in hell.

Using a typical 12" long ratchet and socket, you can't even twist off a 1/2" bolt and these are MUCH tougher than that.

Obviously, you do what you want but I wouldn't loose a moments of sleep over it.

Besides, who would try to steer while parked? Steering while moving is much easier.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[KB]

I was referring to the original quote:

"The more I learn about GMCs, the more I wonder why the OEM unit is so robust. We go from a standard GM steering column shaft to
this big honking thing back to standard size stuff."

It is huge, but appears to be a standard steering column and "big GM" steering box on either end.
Since the Borgeson stuff is sold as a street legal replacement part for "big GM" (and other) heavy duty trucks,
it seems like a good fit for our application.

Karen
1975 26'


Keith V wrote on Fri, 07 November 2014 07:42

> KB wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 15:54
> > but then it seems all the other "standard" sized stuff would be the weakest link.
> >
> >
> > -
>
>
> Standard size??
> Where is the standard size parts?
> only the tie rod ends IMHO
>
> The steering gear is huge, the drag link is huge, it's all huge

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

Enough speculation I just sent the following email to Borgeson:

Quote

Hi,

I am considering installing the parts listed below in a 1975 front wheel drive GMC motorhome and as it is a heavy vehicle would like
assurances that should the power assist to the steering fail the following parts can take the torque required to steer the vehicle.

014349 steering column u-joint / 114349 SS steering column u-joint
015240 steering box u-joint / 115240 SS steering box u-joint
450024 telescoping shaft

Thank you,
Rob

Unquote

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Rob, you probably should have told them the weight on the front tires.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[jerrod winter]

kerry pinkerton wrote on Fri, 07 November 2014 10:48

> USAussie wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 17:05
> > ...Before I put this setup on any coach I owned I would measure the amount of torque it takes to turn the GMC steering wheel full lock
> > left to full lock right "WITH THE GMC STATIONARY ON PAVEMENT" ...
>
>
> Say the steering wheel is 24" in diameter (most are less), that means you have at most a 12" lever. There ain't no way in hell that you, or me,
> or Hulk Hogan or even El Presidenti has the arm strength to twist the DD shaft or break one of these Ujoints using a 12" level. No way in hell.
>
> Using a typical 12" long ratchet and socket, you can't even twist off a 1/2" bolt and these are MUCH tougher than that.
>
> Obviously, you do what you want but I wouldn't loose a moments of sleep over it.
>
> Besides, who would try to steer while parked? Steering while moving is much easier.

Keep in mind most people would use both arms when man handling the wheel. One on each side. That gives you more of a 24" T-handle than a 12"
ratchet.

--
Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota

[John R. Lebetski]

My assumption was always that the shaft was an addaptatiin of an off the shelf Spicer truck part and still available. My concern is that in the video
the upper joint appears to be a U joint and not a CV. That would provide non linear speed transmission from the wheel to the box. That could provide a
wierd non linear driving experience.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Ken Burton]

If a double joint, which they offer, were used up top, the two joints of the double are 90 degrees out of phase. That should all but cancel any
non-linear effect if it really is a problem. Also the double should allow a bend up there of greater than 30 or 35 degrees.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[KB]

JohnL455 wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 06:49

> My assumption was always that the shaft was an addaptatiin of an off the shelf Spicer truck part and still available. My concern is that in the
> video the upper joint appears to be a U joint and not a CV. That would provide non linear speed transmission from the wheel to the box. That could
> provide a wierd non linear driving experience.

Interesting point. My current theory is that they used a CV joint at the top because it can handle bigger angles than most u-joints, so could apply
to more vehicles. I think the non-linear u-joint response you mention helps explain why it's so critical to get the steering shaft aligned correctly
to the center of the steering box.

Two u-joints, phased correctly, mostly counteract each other and act more like a CV joint.
I wonder if having a u-joint at the top, phased with the lower joint, would help counteract the non-linearity of the lower u-joint?

If we added a third u-joint (a double at the top, a single at the bottom), we'd have to add an intermediate support,
which adds more complexity than I'd want to deal with.

just thinking out loud...

Karen
1975 26'

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

I agree with you regarding the upper CV joint. For the record here in New South Wales if you modify the steering in a hot rod the
maximum angle between the steering column and the steering box input shaft allowed is 37°.

When Alex did his seminar on aligning the lower steering shaft at the Chippewa convention someone (I can't remember who) mentioned
that Saginaw steering box tolerances to keep the wheels from wandering was tightest when it was on center. I have absolutely NO
documentation to prove that statement is correct but it stands to reason because when you turn the wheels are "loaded" in the right
or left turn direction which would move any component in that direction as you started the turn.

I don't know if I explained what I was trying to say above clearly, I hope so.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[KB]

I thought Alex was concerned with centering both the gear box (relative to the wheels) and the u-joint (relative to the gearbox), but maybe I
misunderstood.

What I was trying to ask is which is better: a CV joint and a single non-linear u-joint (OEM configuration), or two u-joints phased to mostly cancel
out the non-linear rotation? I've no clue. Maybe it doesn't much matter in a non racing application. High speed cornering in a GMC upsets the dog
(and the passenger...) 8o

[Matt Colie]

KB wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 17:15

> I thought Alex was concerned with centering both the gear box (relative to the wheels) and the u-joint (relative to the gearbox), but maybe I
> misunderstood.
>
> What I was trying to ask is which is better: a CV joint and a single non-linear u-joint (OEM configuration), or two u-joints phased to mostly
> cancel out the non-linear rotation? I've no clue. Maybe it doesn't much matter in a non racing application. High speed cornering in a GMC upsets
> the dog (and the passenger...) 8o
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'

Karen,
You are right about centering the steering box relative to the wheels, and when that is right then the lower U-joint is also centered.

There is another little gotcha in the CV joint to the steering wheel. If the steering shaft (not the wheel, but the shaft) is not straight ahead when
the wheels are, then signals won't set or cancel - pick one - and the wheel won't lock at anything close to center.
I had to play mix and match for most of a day to get that all back the way it was supposed to be. It was worth it.

And - About Corners...
We love it when a pickup is tailgating us into an exit ramp. The dog is usually flat on the rear bed and we always stow to travel, so we go in to the
turn and watch him struggle to stay with us.... :)

In engineering circles, a normal Cardin (cross type universal) joint is deemed to be acceptable to about 12° of offset. And the irony comes that
they don't like being zero offset because the rollers won't circulate.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

This should clarify things for you a bit:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html

Be sure and click on multimedia and read KenH's info.

BTW I spoke with Peter Bailey on Friday and am going to travel down to Adelaide where he and I will put together a series of step by
step photos of how to do this. He has a GMC that has not been converted to RHD.

This morning I checked and to keep the flight costs down I believe I will travel down there the first week in December that way it
will only cost me $130 for a round trip.

I now have to get a "kitchen pass" from Helen! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----
From: KB

I thought Alex was concerned with centering both the gear box (relative to the wheels) and the u-joint (relative to the gearbox),
but maybe I misunderstood.

What I was trying to ask is which is better: a CV joint and a single non-linear u-joint (OEM configuration), or two u-joints phased
to mostly cancel out the non-linear rotation? I've no clue. Maybe it doesn't much matter in a non racing application. High speed
cornering in a GMC upsets the dog (and the passenger...) 8o

Karen

[Ken Henderson]

Rob,

At GMCMI Patterson, LA in March 2015, Alex Ferrara and I (plus others) are
supposed to give seminars, and demonstrations, from Steering Wheel to
Ground on alignment. I'm hoping you'll have your column photos and paper
read by then, to accompany your wear test paper as documentation! :-)

The GMCMI paper budget probably won't support printing handouts of all that
for the attendees, but we can at least be sure they make it to the GMCMI
web site.

Newly purchased video equipment should make it possible for the entire
audience to see what's going on during the hands-on portions of the party.

Y'All come!

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Robert Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
wrote:

> Karen,
>
> This should clarify things for you a bit:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html
>
> Be sure and click on multimedia and read KenH's info.
>
> BTW I spoke with Peter Bailey on Friday and am going to travel down to
> Adelaide where he and I will put together a series of step by
> step photos of how to do this. He has a GMC that has not been converted
> to RHD.
>
> This morning I checked and to keep the flight costs down I believe I will
> travel down there the first week in December that way it
> will only cost me $130 for a round trip.
>
> I now have to get a "kitchen pass" from Helen! ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>

[Keith V]

KB wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 13:37

> JohnL455 wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 06:49
> > My assumption was always that the shaft was an addaptatiin of an off the shelf Spicer truck part and still available. My concern is that in
> > the video the upper joint appears to be a U joint and not a CV. That would provide non linear speed transmission from the wheel to the box. That
> > could provide a wierd non linear driving experience.
>
>
>
> Interesting point. My current theory is that they used a CV joint at the top because it can handle bigger angles than most u-joints, so could
> apply to more vehicles. I think the non-linear u-joint response you mention helps explain why it's so critical to get the steering shaft aligned
> correctly to the center of the steering box.
>
> Two u-joints, phased correctly, mostly counteract each other and act more like a CV joint.
> I wonder if having a u-joint at the top, phased with the lower joint, would help counteract the non-linearity of the lower u-joint?
>
> If we added a third u-joint (a double at the top, a single at the bottom), we'd have to add an intermediate support,
> which adds more complexity than I'd want to deal with.
>
> just thinking out loud...
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'

2 u joints only cancel if their angles are the same.
And the top steering angle is way different than the lower angle. They wont cancel.
Now in a slow speed device like a steering wheel, I'm betting you won't notice it much.

I think the CV joint is a better solution.
I do wonder about the stiffness of the DD shaft in a heavy application like the GMC.
I'm betting there is a little twist during turning...

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Ken Henderson]

After having driven my GMC about 100 miles last year with NO power steering
(including in Seattle traffic), I can tell you that above 2-3 mph, the
steering effort really isn't that great. At 25+ mph, it's quite
comfortable. At a standstill, it's so stiff that you don't want to try it,
but rolling -- no way that shaft will have significant rotational strain.
No physics and mathematics required.

Ken H.


On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinke...@mchsi.com>
wrote:

> Rob, you probably should have told them the weight on the front tires.
> --
>

[Ken Burton]

Ken Burton wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 10:30

> If a double joint, which they offer, were used up top, the two joints of the double are 90 degrees out of phase. That should all but cancel any
> non-linear effect if it really is a problem. Also the double should allow a bend up there of greater than 30 or 35 degrees.

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Double_Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-12.html

[Ken Burton]

Keith V wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 23:25

> KB wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 13:37
> > JohnL455 wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 06:49
> > > My assumption was always that the shaft was an addaptatiin of an off the shelf Spicer truck part and still available. My concern is that
> > > in the video the upper joint appears to be a U joint and not a CV. That would provide non linear speed transmission from the wheel to the box.
> > > That could provide a wierd non linear driving experience.
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting point. My current theory is that they used a CV joint at the top because it can handle bigger angles than most u-joints, so could
> > apply to more vehicles. I think the non-linear u-joint response you mention helps explain why it's so critical to get the steering shaft aligned
> > correctly to the center of the steering box.
> >
> > Two u-joints, phased correctly, mostly counteract each other and act more like a CV joint.
> > I wonder if having a u-joint at the top, phased with the lower joint, would help counteract the non-linearity of the lower u-joint?
> >
> > If we added a third u-joint (a double at the top, a single at the bottom), we'd have to add an intermediate support,
> > which adds more complexity than I'd want to deal with.
> >
> > just thinking out loud...
> >
> > Karen
> > 1975 26'
>
>
> 2 u joints only cancel if their angles are the same.
> And the top steering angle is way different than the lower angle. They wont cancel.
> Now in a slow speed device like a steering wheel, I'm betting you won't notice it much.
>
> I think the CV joint is a better solution.
> I do wonder about the stiffness of the DD shaft in a heavy application like the GMC.
> I'm betting there is a little twist during turning...

Here is the double joint I was talking about. Not two separate u-joints.

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Double_Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-12.html


--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[KB]

Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 05:47

> Here is the double joint I was talking about. Not two separate u-joints.
>
> http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Double_Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-12.html

With a double at the top, unless we can get rid of the single u-joint at the bottom (on top of the steering box) then we'd end up with a total of
three u-joints,
which would require something to anchor the shaft in the middle to keep it from "looping" as the manufacturers say.

[Ken Burton]

Yes, I realized that but I just wanted to throw that option into the mix.

Also I thought someone said that stainless DD shafts were not available from Borgeson. Is this what we are looking for?

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-20.html

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Polished_Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-21.html


KB wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 11:20

> Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 05:47
> > Here is the double joint I was talking about. Not two separate u-joints.
> >
> > http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Double_Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-12.html
>
>
> With a double at the top, unless we can get rid of the single u-joint at the bottom (on top of the steering box) then we'd end up with a total of
> three u-joints,
> which would require something to anchor the shaft in the middle to keep it from "looping" as the manufacturers say.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[KB]

Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 09:34

> Yes, I realized that but I just wanted to throw that option into the mix.
>
> Also I thought someone said that stainless DD shafts were not available from Borgeson. Is this what we are looking for?
>
> http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-20.html
>
> http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Polished_Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-21.html

the 3/4" inner DD shaft is available in stainless, but the outer sleeve of the telescoping shaft is only available in steel, as far as I can tell.
Personally, I'd just get the regular DD shaft and coat it with anti-sieze as you suggested earlier. But, I'm still concerned about the angles
involved, so
not 100% sure this is a prime time solution. It obviously works in Jim F's coach though, so who knows.

Karen
1975 26'

[KB]

I think Kerry's observation that the new joints are shorter (which lessens the angles involved) may be the saving grace.
Just remembered I have a digital angle gauge. It's still really hard to measure the parts in-situ -- lots of stuff in the way and lumpy parts and
hard to get everything in the same plane. But, my best guesstimate is the upper joint is in the ballpark of 39 degrees, and the lower is
somewhere around 18 degrees, give or take. The new joints are roughly half the length of the old ones (from where they mount to the center of the
joint).
I did a very rough back-of-the-envelope scale model and it appears the length change may be enough to bring the upper joint to within the 35 degree
limit.
Would have to double-check this with actual measurements of the installed new parts of course.

Now we just have to answer all the other questions...

[Keith V]

I actually use the double U-Joint on my '69 Corvette rack and pinion conversion.
It definitely needs the center support but it does work quite well.

Note that there are 3 u-joints. I probably could have gotten away with only 2 but I didn't want to buy another u-joint when I had a working system.
That support is a special oversize spherical rod end and needs a really stiff mounting location. If it moves you will feel it. Mine is on a piece of
reinforced 1/4 inch plate.

Here's a large picture showing the setup;
http://www.corvettengineering.com/cgi-bin/slide?dir=../photos/Brakes;file=Brake%20System.JPG

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Keith V]

KB wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 12:05

> Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 09:34
> > Yes, I realized that but I just wanted to throw that option into the mix.
> >
> > Also I thought someone said that stainless DD shafts were not available from Borgeson. Is this what we are looking for?
> >
> > http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-20.html
> >
> > http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Polished_Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-21.html
>
>
> the 3/4" inner DD shaft is available in stainless, but the outer sleeve of the telescoping shaft is only available in steel, as far as I can
> tell.
> Personally, I'd just get the regular DD shaft and coat it with anti-sieze as you suggested earlier. But, I'm still concerned about the angles
> involved, so
> not 100% sure this is a prime time solution. It obviously works in Jim F's coach though, so who knows.
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'

I think the outer doesn't matter. you can paint the outside and the inside will be coated in grease.
The DD is what I would want Stainless anyway so it doesn't rust and tear up the seal

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

Got the following response from Borgeson today:

***************************************************************************************************************

From: Gil Evans [mailto:G...@borgeson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 1:52 AM
To: Robert Mueller
Subject: RE: Torque Capacity

You can be assured that these parts will hold up; we use them in manual steering vehicles as well.

Gil Evans
Borgeson Universal Company
91 Technology Park Drive
Torrington, CT 06790 USA
(860)482-8283
(860)496-9320 FAX
g...@borgeson.com

***************************************************************************************************************

And that's THAT! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[Robert Mueller]

Ken,

I just got confirmation that the flights I booked down to Adelaide for December 2nd returning December 6th were confirmed.

I'm sure Peter and I can put together a photo album that shows what Alex does.

I reckon that watching the video that will be produced at the GMCMI Convention and using the photos that Peter and I will produce
"blind Freddie" could do this job! ;-)

For those of you wonder who blind Freddie was:

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blind-freddie

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson

Rob,

At GMCMI Patterson, LA in March 2015, Alex Ferrara and I (plus others) are
supposed to give seminars, and demonstrations, from Steering Wheel to
Ground on alignment. I'm hoping you'll have your column photos and paper
read by then, to accompany your wear test paper as documentation! :-)

The GMCMI paper budget probably won't support printing handouts of all that
for the attendees, but we can at least be sure they make it to the GMCMI
web site.

Newly purchased video equipment should make it possible for the entire
audience to see what's going on during the hands-on portions of the party.

Y'All come!

Ken H.

[KB]

Since I had our upper steering column apart, I took some pictures and measurements. On the inside, it is a 3/4" DD collapsible shaft, though it's a
little smaller than the stock 3/4" shaft size near the top where they turned it. Here's a picture of that as well as the borgeson shaft.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56467-borgeson-intermediate-shaft-vs-oem-upper-column-shaft.html

Karen
1975 26'

[Terry]

It was designed to be able to take the torque required to steer a GMC if you loose power steering?

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...
--
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.

[KB]

well, poop. That set of u-joints won't work with each other:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56544-borgeson-and-flaming-r.html

Also, I checked with Dave Lenzi about buying new OEM type steering shafts. He doesn't have any and doesn't know if/when he will be able to get them.
Apparently Spicer (the maker of the oem shafts) is in Chapter 13 and the holding company is impossible to deal with.

Karen
1975 26'



KB wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 10:37
> just an update:
>
> Borgeson u-joints are good to 35 degrees, and we already know they work here.
>
> The pinch-bolt type u-joints do require notching the shaft for the shoulder bolt to clear (a good thing), so probably a good fit for our lower
> u-joint.
>
> So, my current shopping list:
> upper u-joint: Borgeson 1"-48x1"DD (stainless: #114352)
> DD slip shaft (Borgeson 450024 or others)
> lower u-joint: Flaming River 13/16"-36 x 3/4DD pinch-bolt u-joint (stainless: FR2719DD)
>
> I think there are a lot of possible solutions. Thanks to Jim Fawcett for heading down this path and figuring out the sizes.
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

Point of clarification, could you please advise some more details regarding; "Unfortunately these can only go on the DD telescoping
shaft one way, and that way is NOT correctly phased?"

Are you saying you can not perform Alex's steering box alignment procedure?

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: KB

well, poop. That set of u-joints won't work with each other:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56544-borgeson-and-flaming-r.html

Also, I checked with Dave Lenzi about buying new OEM type steering shafts. He doesn't have any and doesn't know if/when he will be
able to get them. Apparently Spicer (the maker of the oem shafts) is in Chapter 13 and the holding company is impossible to deal
with.

Karen

[Kerry Pinkerton]

I'm not an engineer but I'm thinking it really wouldn't make any difference. It's not a driveshaft with a lot of weight and RPM. Our rpm on the
steering shaft will be a single digit number...probably a very low single digit. The only time you'll turn more than a few degrees is when slow speed
turning.

We know it works...right...Jim Fawcet has been running it for a year.

Perhaps one of the professional engineer types can explain why it would make a noticeable difference. I'd appreciate the education.

I'm not the least bit sure that my roadster is in or out of phase. I'll go look later.
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[gene Fisher]

O

On Saturday, November 22, 2014, KB <ka...@sonic.net> wrote:

> well, poop. That set of u-joints won't work with each other:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56544-borgeson-and-flaming-r.html
>
> Also, I checked with Dave Lenzi about buying new OEM type steering
> shafts. He doesn't have any and doesn't know if/when he will be able to
> get them.
> Apparently Spicer (the maker of the oem shafts) is in Chapter 13 and the
> holding company is impossible to deal with.

Get peters. Everything was new on his coach

>
> Karen
> 1975 26'
>
>
>
> KB wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 10:37
> > just an update:
> >
> > Borgeson u-joints are good to 35 degrees, and we already know they work
> here.
> >
> > The pinch-bolt type u-joints do require notching the shaft for the
> shoulder bolt to clear (a good thing), so probably a good fit for our lower
> > u-joint.
> >
> > So, my current shopping list:
> > upper u-joint: Borgeson 1"-48x1"DD (stainless: #114352)
> > DD slip shaft (Borgeson 450024 or others)
> > lower u-joint: Flaming River 13/16"-36 x 3/4DD pinch-bolt u-joint
> (stainless: FR2719DD)
> >
> > I think there are a lot of possible solutions. Thanks to Jim Fawcett
> for heading down this path and figuring out the sizes.
> >
> > Karen
> > 1975 26'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[KB]

no, it's not a problem with mounting the u-joint to the steering box. The problem is you can not orient
the two u-joints relative to each other on the DD shaft with correct phasing (so they cancel out each other's non-linear motion).
One of the u-joints would have to be rotated 90 degrees (so it's a mirror image of the one on the other end of the shaft).
But you can't do that because then it won't fit onto the DD shaft.

Karen
1975 26'

USAussie wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 13:52

> Karen,
>
> Point of clarification, could you please advise some more details regarding; "Unfortunately these can only go on the DD telescoping
> shaft one way, and that way is NOT correctly phased?"
>
> Are you saying you can not perform Alex's steering box alignment procedure?
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[KB]

I've no idea how much difference it would make in real life. I'm only going by what I've read.
Borgeson says: "Premature wear or binding can result if the u-joints are not phased properly."

It's possible that Jim Fawcett's setup is correctly phased since he used Borgeson joints on both ends of the shaft
rather than mix and match the nice Flaming River pinch bolt joint with a Borgeson regular joint as I did.
(a shame -- the pinch bolt u-joint fits perfectly on our stock steering box shaft without modification.
But, Borgeson doesn't make pinch-bolt joints, and Flaming River (probably) doesn't make upper joints with enough bend for our application.)


I've asked Borgeson if it will be correctly phased with their joints on both ends of the shaft, so we'll see what they say.
I just wanted to provide an update on the specific set of part numbers I'd mentioned before in case anybody else is experimenting with them.

Karen
1975 26'








kerry pinkerton wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 15:12

> I'm not an engineer but I'm thinking it really wouldn't make any difference. It's not a driveshaft with a lot of weight and RPM. Our rpm on the
> steering shaft will be a single digit number...probably a very low single digit. The only time you'll turn more than a few degrees is when slow
> speed turning.
>
> We know it works...right...Jim Fawcet has been running it for a year.
>
> Perhaps one of the professional engineer types can explain why it would make a noticeable difference. I'd appreciate the education.
>
> I'm not the least bit sure that my roadster is in or out of phase. I'll go look later.

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase. Obviously, it
wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both ends from the same manufacturer.

--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

I did not ask my question with enough detail.

For clarification the following comments assume an OEM steering wheel with two spokes as pictured in Parts Book 78Z page 16-14.

The procedure Alex uses sets up the following conditions:

1) Steering wheel spokes perpendicular to the GMC's fore / aft axis

2) Lower (AKA intermediate) steering column CV joint, slip joint, and universal joint assembled and clocked as per Maintenance
Manual X-7625 / Page 9-3 / Figure 1 - Lower Steering Shaft (Disassembled)

3) The splines in item 7. Flange in Figure 1 installed into to the spline on the steering column with the correct clocking /
orientation of the bolt and the slot in the Flange and the recess in the steering column. As I understand it, it is possible to be
off one spline clockwise or counter clockwise.

4) Item 10. Yoke in Figure 1 attached to the steering box input shaft with the correct clocking / orientation of the bolt and the
slot in the steering box input shaft (determined by using a 29/64 inch drill).

5) Steering box input shaft oriented as per the photos in Alex's procedure.

6) Drag link / tie rod ends set so that the wheels are oriented for straight ahead travel.

Your comments about not being able to phase the Borgeson and Flaming River joint made me think it would effect the steps above,
however, upon a bit more thought I realized that's not a problem as the tie rod ends can be adjusted to set the box on center with
the steering wheel oriented as noted in step 1 above and the wheels oriented for straight ahead travel.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[Keith V]

I've done a lot of research into u-joints to get rid of vibration in my vette.
I really don't think its an issue in steering.

The problem is that when a u-joint is rotated while at an angle, the bearings travel in an ellipse. If the u-joints are in the same phase you get
vibration. If the u-joint angles are EQUAL AND OPPOSITE, then the ellipses are opposite and you you get cancellation and no vibration.
Vibration caused by phase angle issue are 4 times the rotation speed ( or is it 2x?? )

The steering shaft has a number of differences from a drive shaft.
1. The angles are not equal and opposite. The top angle is way bigger than the bottom. Even if phased correctly there will be vibration
2. The vibration speed will be 4 x (1 or 2) RPM max, 0 driving most of the time, but I really doubt you could feel it. If you can, I doubt you'd care
3. The original shaft only has 1 u-joint, there is no cancellation in that system. No one cares
4. Road feedback will most likely completely swamp and nonlinearity in the steering.

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Keith V]

Rob, the Flaming river / borgson solution will have a slightly different, and easier alignment procedure.

The new ujoints don't have the same cross bolt the OEM version does so it cam be put on anyway you want. You only want to make sure the steering wheel
and the steering box are centered. The rest no longer matters.

Basically;
1. Center and lock steering wheel from rotating
2. Center and lock steering box from rotating
3. install new shaft and tighten all bolts
4. Crack a old one and sip leisurely

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Robert Mueller]

Keith,

It seems I've pissed one person off today and PLEASE don't let what I ask below make it two!

Just want to confirm that with steps 1 & 2 as stated below the splines in the top and bottom of the Flaming River or Borgeson
U-joints will be in alignment with the splines on the bottom of the steering column and the steering box input and it will just slip
in?

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: Keith V

Rob, the Flaming River / Borgeson solution will have a slightly different, and easier alignment procedure.

The new ujoints don't have the same cross bolt the OEM version does so it cam be put on anyway you want. You only want to make sure
the steering wheel and the steering box are centered. The rest no longer matters.

Basically;
1. Center and lock steering wheel from rotating
2. Center and lock steering box from rotating

3. Install new shaft and tighten all bolts
4. Crack a cold one and sip leisurely
--
Keith

[rally...@juno.com]

Sounds like time for a 1 ton front end conversion.

RonC\

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:23:02 -0700 Kerry Pinkerton <Pinke...@MCHSI.com>
writes:

> Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you
> took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase.
> Obviously, it
> wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both
> ends from the same manufacturer.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also
> a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[Kerry Pinkerton]

ASSUMING... ASSUMING...that GMC designed everything so that the steering column splines match in alignment (ie, #1 spline at 12 o'clock or similar
(zero degrees)), Keith's procedure will be exactly what is needed. If GMC did not but corrected it in the 6 bolt mid plate, the MOST you could be off
would be some fraction of one spline...a few degrees. Based on what Alex is seeing with many coaches off 60, 120 or even 180 degrees, I'd think even
off a couple degrees would be a VAST improvement over how most coaches on the road today are set.

If, on the other hand, GMC built the steering shaft to simply span the gap between a centered lower box and a centered steering column and welded the
top and bottom ends together in the 6 bolt mid plate to correct any alignment of splines issues, then this new shaft could be off a couple degrees.
Might that make a noticeable difference? I don't have a clue.

The Ujoint manufacturer would have to have their splines clocked appropriately also. For example, if the top Ujoint was made so that #1 spline was at
zero degrees, but the bottom Ujoint which has a different spline count the #1 spline started at 2 degrees, there could be a misalignment. However,
from a manufacturing standpoint, I'd be amazed if they would let that happen.

Regarding the STRENGTH of the units as discussed earlier, it occurred to me that our shafts are an interesting mix of components. We have this HUGE
honking slip joint that looks like it came out of a Sherman tank that lead to splined connections to the column and steering box. The weak point in
the shaft is the splines. I'm sure one of our engineers can tell us how much it will take to strip the splines on the end of the standard GM steering
column but I'm willing to they will strip LONG before the aftermarket Ujoints or DD shaft will fail.

[Keith V]

USAussie wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 21:52

> Keith,
>
> It seems I've pissed one person off today and PLEASE don't let what I ask below make it two!
>
> Just want to confirm that with steps 1 & 2 as stated below the splines in the top and bottom of the Flaming River or Borgeson
> U-joints will be in alignment with the splines on the bottom of the steering column and the steering box input and it will just slip
> in?

Ha ha Rob, no problem :) you have to try a lot harder to piss me off than that.

regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one spline, the lower
shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees on the
bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
that could be enough to be an issue maybe

--
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
69 Vette
29 Dodge

[Robert Mueller]

Kerry,

A) If the steering wheel is installed so that horizontal bars are perpendicular to mark on the spline at the top of the steering
column and that mark is parallel to the fore / aft axis of the GMC:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56546-steering-column-splines.html

B) The lower steering shaft is assembled as per MM X-7625 / Section 9 / Page 9-3 / Figure 1 - Lower Steering Shaft (Disassembled),

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56545-lower-intermediate-steering-column.html

C) the steering box input spline is aligned as per:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56547-steering-box-input-shaft-alignment.html

The OEM parts will align everything properly.

As far as the strength of the OEM assembly goes I stumbled on to this photograph when searching the PhotoSite:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56467-borgeson-intermediate-shaft-vs-oem-upper-column-shaft.html

This is Karen's photo and it shows that the shaft in the OEM column is virtually the same as the Borgeson column. This tells me from
a strength aspect the Borgeson setup is fine.

As far as the alignment between the steering column and the steering box using the Borgeson or Flaming River parts I cannot comment.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----

From: Kerry Pinkerton

ASSUMING... ASSUMING...that GMC designed everything so that the steering column splines match in alignment (ie, #1 spline at 12
o'clock or similar (zero degrees)), Keith's procedure will be exactly what is needed. If GMC did not but corrected it in the 6 bolt
mid plate, the MOST you could be off would be some fraction of one spline...a few degrees. Based on what Alex is seeing with many
coaches off 60, 120 or even 180 degrees, I'd think even off a couple degrees would be a VAST improvement over how most coaches on
the road today are set.

If, on the other hand, GMC built the steering shaft to simply span the gap between a centered lower box and a centered steering
column and welded the top and bottom ends together in the 6 bolt mid plate to correct any alignment of splines issues, then this new
shaft could be off a couple degrees. Might that make a noticeable difference? I don't have a clue.

The Ujoint manufacturer would have to have their splines clocked appropriately also. For example, if the top Ujoint was made so
that #1 spline was at zero degrees, but the bottom Ujoint which has a different spline count the #1 spline started at 2 degrees,
there could be a misalignment. However, from a manufacturing standpoint, I'd be amazed if they would let that happen.

Regarding the STRENGTH of the units as discussed earlier, it occurred to me that our shafts are an interesting mix of components.
We have this HUGE honking slip joint that looks like it came out of a Sherman tank that lead to splined connections to the column
and steering box. The weak point in the shaft is the splines. I'm sure one of our engineers can tell us how much it will take to
strip the splines on the end of the standard GM steering column but I'm willing to they will strip LONG before the aftermarket
Ujoints or DD shaft will fail.

Kerry

[Robert Mueller]

Keith,

Great!

From research I've done on the steering box and discussions I've had with Dave Lenzi I am of the OPINION that any amount the
steering box is off center is going to cause steering wander.

While I'm down in Adelaide working with Peter Bailey I'll see if we can figger out how to determine how many degrees it takes for
the steering to get sloppy.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith V

Ha ha Rob, no problem :) you have to try a lot harder to piss me off than that.

regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one
spline, the lower shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off
exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees on the bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
that could be enough to be an issue maybe

Keith Vasilakes

[KB]

Keith V wrote on Sun, 23 November 2014 11:44

> regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one spline, the
> lower shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees
> on the bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
> that could be enough to be an issue maybe

I think there's an interaction between the two splines that reduce the maximum offset even more.
Eg, very worst case the lower spline is off by 5 degrees (one-half spline). Then you still have the steering wheel alignment to contend with,
which is off by a maximum of 3.75 degrees. Seems like those two would be subtractive -- ie, plus or minus 3.75 from the 5 degrees offset, for a
total
absolute maximum possible misalignment of the steering wheel of 1.25 degrees when the wheels are pointed straight ahead. You could probably
get it even closer by pulling the steering wheel off of its splined fitting and moving it over one.

At least that seems like how it should work... not sure what I'm missing.
I've a suspicion the different shaft size and spline counts they chose weren't accidental.

Karen
1975 26'

[KB]

Just as a related side note, I was studying Don Wirth's excellent article about the steering box:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf

In it, he asserts that our steering box has a 3/4" 24-spline shaft. (I assume he meant 3/4"-30, with 6 missing for the flat).
This confused me, so I double checked ours, which for sure is a 13/16"-36 spline shaft, just like Jim Fawcett found with his.

Don's test for checking the size is correct: a 3/4" 12-point socket WILL fit on a 13/16"-36 splined shaft just fine.
To test for a 3/4" shaft, you actually need (I think) an 11/16" socket because the teeth of the socket fit into the
grooves of the spline, which is a smaller diameter circle. The 3/4" boxes are more common since the 13/16" size was only
used up until about 1977.

At any rate, if you went to a junkyard armed with Don's suggestion on checking shaft sizes using a 3/4" 12-point socket, you'd be fine.
However, if you just ordered a steering box with a 3/4" shaft based on his article, you'd never be able to get your OEM steering pinch bolt
tightened correctly on the steering shaft. Made me wonder if there might be a few GMC's out there with wrong size steering boxes,
and also if any 1978 coaches were equipped with the later sized boxes.

Karen
1975 26'




USAussie wrote on Sun, 23 November 2014 17:55
> Keith,

> From research I've done on the steering box and discussions I've had with Dave Lenzi I am of the OPINION that any amount the
> steering box is off center is going to cause steering wander.
>
> While I'm down in Adelaide working with Peter Bailey I'll see if we can figger out how to determine how many degrees it takes for
> the steering to get sloppy.

[Robert Mueller]

Karen,

As I will be heading down to Adelaide to work with Peter Bailey on the step by step photographic procedure I called him the other
day to check and see if he had a deep well socket that would go over the steering box input spline so we can perform the over center
adjustment in the Maintenance Manual. He has a spare steering box and he verified that a 12 point 3/4 inch socket will go over the
input spline for the procedure.

IIRC in discussions with Dave Lenzi about the steering boxes I THINK he noted that there are steering boxes that have METRIC input
shafts! I'm going to call him later today for another regarding the steering box and I'll verify that.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----

From: KB

Just as a related side note, I was studying Don Wirth's excellent article about the steering box:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf

In it, he asserts that our steering box has a 3/4" 24-spline shaft. (I assume he meant 3/4"-30, with 6 missing for the flat).
This confused me, so I double checked ours, which for sure is a 13/16"-36 spline shaft, just like Jim Fawcett found with his.

Don's test for checking the size is correct: a 3/4" 12-point socket WILL fit on a 13/16"-36 splined shaft just fine.
To test for a 3/4" shaft, you actually need (I think) an 11/16" socket because the teeth of the socket fit into the
grooves of the spline, which is a smaller diameter circle. The 3/4" boxes are more common since the 13/16" size was only
used up until about 1977.

At any rate, if you went to a junkyard armed with Don's suggestion on checking shaft sizes using a 3/4" 12-point socket, you'd be
fine.
However, if you just ordered a steering box with a 3/4" shaft based on his article, you'd never be able to get your OEM steering
pinch bolt tightened correctly on the steering shaft. Made me wonder if there might be a few GMC's out there with wrong size
steering boxes, and also if any 1978 coaches were equipped with the later sized boxes.

Karen

[Robert Mueller]

Karen, I just got off the phone with Dave who advised that there are three steering boxes that will fit in a GMC:

Correct box has a spline that a 12 point 3/4 inch socket will fit snugly. Also it has a single relief cut into the splines for the lower steering
shaft yoke bolt.

Incorrect box #1: The 12 point 3/4 inch socket will fit correctly over the input shaft BUT instead of a single relief cut into the splines for the
lower steering shaft yoke bolt it has a relief cut around the circumference of the whole splined shaft.

Incorrect box #2: The 12 point 3/4 inch socket will fit the loosely over the input spline and spin.


--
Regards,
Rob M.
(USAussie)
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

[KB]

kerry pinkerton wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 16:23

> Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase. Obviously,
> it wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both ends from the same manufacturer.

just another minor update. I finally got the second Borgeson joint (takes a couple of weeks) and it IS indeed correctly phased with the first Borgeson
joint
as Kerry suggested.
So, while both Flaming River and Borgeson u-joints will fit on a DD shaft from either manufacturer, you (apparently) can not mix and match the
joints.
Ie, you need either two Borgeson joints, or two Flaming River joints for the phasing to be correct.

I liked the look of the Flaming River joint a lot more, but they're only good to 30 degrees (vs 35 degrees for Borgeson)
and I think we need all the angle we can get for our upper steering joint.

I haven't installed these joints on our coach yet. Still need a test drive with the re-aligned steering box before deciding. (ie, one change at a
time...)

Karen
1975 26'

[Kerry Pinkerton]

Karen, Ken Henderson mentioned the DD Ujoints and I wondered if you ever did anything further on yours?
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

77 Kingsley by Buskirk. Rear twins/dry bath, EFI Caddy.

Also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler

[A.]

KB wrote on Thu, 18 December 2014 15:43
> ...So, while both Flaming River and Borgeson u-joints will fit on a DD shaft from either manufacturer, you (apparently) can not mix and match the
> joints.
> I.E., you need either two Borgeson joints, or two Flaming River joints for the phasing to be correct. ...
I don't remember if I posted this in the original thread, but phasing is irrelevant in the steering mechanism. That tiny fraction of a rotation when
one speeds up and the other slows down won't even be noticeable by a human turning a wheel.

On a drive shaft it will vibrate like h3!! and ruin the bearings on each end. But on the steering shaft, nada.
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
Upper Alabama
After all is said and done, a helluva lot more is said than done.

[KB]

kerry pinkerton wrote on Fri, 03 July 2015 05:11

> Karen, Ken Henderson mentioned the DD Ujoints and I wondered if you ever did anything further on yours?

nope, it's been a weird year and I ran out of steam for projects. I believe these parts will work fine as a replacement (just don't mix
manufacturers or the DD joints won't be phased correctly).

Here are some joints that should work: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p58297-borgeson-u-joints.html

Karen
1975 26'

[KB]

A Hamilto wrote on Fri, 03 July 2015 09:36

> KB wrote on Thu, 18 December 2014 15:43
> > ...So, while both Flaming River and Borgeson u-joints will fit on a DD shaft from either manufacturer, you (apparently) can not mix and match
> > the joints.
> > I.E., you need either two Borgeson joints, or two Flaming River joints for the phasing to be correct. ...
> I don't remember if I posted this in the original thread, but phasing is irrelevant in the steering mechanism. That tiny fraction of a rotation
> when one speeds up and the other slows down won't even be noticeable by a human turning a wheel.
>
> On a drive shaft it will vibrate like h3!! and ruin the bearings on each end. But on the steering shaft, nada.

That seems reasonable, but it doesn't hurt anything to pick joints with correct phasing which could (in theory) work better.

Karen
1975 26'

[A.]

KB wrote on Fri, 03 July 2015 12:05

> That seems reasonable, but it doesn't hurt anything to pick joints with correct phasing which could (in theory) work better.
> Karen
> 1975 26'

Yep. Besides, if there is no significant price difference, it makes sense to order everything from one vendor on one order to save on shipping.

--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
Upper Alabama
After all is said and done, a helluva lot more is said than done.

[Hal StClair]

I used Borgeson parts through out. I used Borgeson # 154943 for the 3/4 DD x 1" 48 that incorporates a vibration damper, the other 1" DD x 13/16-36
(115240) and a telescoping steering shaft (450024).
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout

[KB]

Hal StClair wrote on Fri, 03 July 2015 11:33

> I used Borgeson parts through out. I used Borgeson # 154943 for the 3/4 DD x 1" 48 that incorporates a vibration damper, the other 1" DD x
> 13/16-36 (115240) and a telescoping steering shaft (450024).
> Hal

Hey Hal, just revisiting this idea. You've had your Borgeson setup for a year or more. How do you like it?

thanks,
Karen
1975 26'

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