[GMCnet] GMC Coop Jasper cam specs
Dennis Golden
Hi all,
I am planning on installing fuel injection and the vendor wants the information for anything non stock (they need to calculate the amount of air the thing pumps). I was able to find the compression ratio (8.75) from the GMCWS white paper, but nothing about cam timing and lift.
The engine in my coach is the Jasper/COOP engine purchased from Jim B and installed by Miguel in 2006. It also got a Manny rebuilt transmission and 3.70 final drive.
I sent an email to Jim B but no response. I really want the fuel injection before the GMCMI rally in Pueblo.
Any and all help will be greatly appreciated
--
Dennis Golden
1976 Glenbrook
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Howard and Sue
We are running the Howell system.
Its all set up for our 455 GMC 's
Plug and Play EZ-PZ!.
Call them.
We have had our for the past five years.
The good thing about the unit it is built with GM parts, so if you have a
problem on the road you can go to the local dealer for parts.
We have never had a problem with the Howell unit.
Howard
26' Canyon Lands.
Not Quite Stock
Alpine Ca
Carl Stouffer
Call him on the phone. I understand his e-mail volume is overwhelming and he doesn't always get to all of it.
Carl S
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
George Groth
Hi Carl, I bought one of JB's cams a while back. He told me to look at his web site and poke around in there, which I did. I know it is there, but can't remember exactly how to get there; just give it a try.
--
geo groth '73 260 Sequoia
Carson City Nevada
Carleton Douglas
I have the cam spec's for the non roller cam from Jim B if you want
them, valve adjustment intake gross lift .433 and exhaust .467. Valve
timing open @ .006 intake 22 BTDC 53 ABDC- exhaust 66 BBDC, 17 ATDC -
duration @ .050 intake 203 exhaust 215 lobe lift intake .2710 exhaust
.2920 lobe seperation 110.0
Grind # OL. 255 DEH-10
Hope this helps,
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
Dennis Golden
hnielsen2 wrote on Tue, 04 August 2009 13:40
> Dennis;
> We are running the Howell system.
> Its all set up for our 455 GMC 's
> Plug and Play EZ-PZ!.
> Call them.
> We have had our for the past five years.
> The good thing about the unit it is built with GM parts, so if you have a
> problem on the road you can go to the local dealer for parts.
> We have never had a problem with the Howell unit.
> Howard
> 26' Canyon Lands.
> Not Quite Stock
> Alpine Ca
I assume you have a stock 455. The COOP/Jasper is not stock. It has a lower compression ratio and a cam that increases maximum torque at a higher RPM than stock.
Carleton Douglas wrote on Tue, 04 August 2009 18:03
> Dennis,
>
> I have the cam spec's for the non roller cam from Jim B if you want
> them, valve adjustment intake gross lift .433 and exhaust .467. Valve
> timing open @ .006 intake 22 BTDC 53 ABDC- exhaust 66 BBDC, 17 ATDC -
> duration @ .050 intake 203 exhaust 215 lobe lift intake .2710 exhaust
> .2920 lobe seperation 110.0
>
> Grind # OL. 255 DEH-10
>
> Hope this helps,
As far as I know, this engine has the roller cam. It was purchased and installed in August of 2006. I don't know if the timing/lift is the same as the non roller or not. I really appreciate the information. I will call Jim B and see if he can confirm this.
Shan Rose
just curious do you guys see any improvement in MPG with the EFI system swap?
Duce
Steven Ferguson
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Dennis
Golden<dgo...@golden-consulting.com> wrote:
>
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
Jim Kanomata
I can see why they want that data,but I know they can get in the ball park
and start setting the system without all this data they are looking for.
I have had a rather sophisticated unit in mine and your not going to tune it
by those data.
Yes, the jasper of Jim B is different , but not enough to waste your time
looking for that data.
Those that feel that fuel injection is going to answer your prayers for more
mileage better tread slowly. There are lot of great things in a injection
system, but if you do not understand the system and make adjustments your
better off with a good carb and distributor.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Steven Ferguson
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
Jim Kanomata
much as they are under demands by their shop.
I have a great support team that I have that take care of lot of things so I
can play on the net.
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Carleton Douglas
can be worked on by any GM repair shop, very simple system.
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
Mr.erf ERFisher
and on the Howell, one of our own is a vendor
http://www.bdub.net/jrwheeler/
gene
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Shan Rose <defc...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
Jim Kanomata
units
John Sharpe
Quote:
> Carleton Douglas wrote:
> I take exception to your comment, a stock 455 fuel injection system
> can be worked on by any GM repair shop, very simple system.
Carleton, Jim did not say that a stock 454 TBI Chevrolet system that has been adapted to a 455 Oldsmobile is not a simple system or that it cannot be worked on by any GM repair shop.
He was simply stating that most GMC Motorhome vendors are busy running their operations and do not have time to chit chat by e-mail.
--
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'40 Ford Deluxe TBI
'78 Eleganza TBI
'78 Royale TBI
mailto:johna...@earthlink.net
Carleton Douglas
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
Jim Kanomata
things.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Jim Bounds
In the past several years I have climbed the FI mountain, fell off the other side along with my customers -- climbed back up and swore I would learn from that experience. Here is what I learned:
Sure, all new cars have fuel injection, computer engine management systems really do a great job of controlling many aspects of a motors operation that is if the motor is matched well to the electronics. manufacturers intend on making thousands of a vehicle and spend millions setting up a motor. They get it down pat but when you install an aftermarket FI system, your assets are limited to whats in the box or written on the instruction sheet, there is no way you can interface a motor, it's operating perameters and the electronics all together. Sure, you can get close and at some point it will offer you performance the production cars do but getting there is the challenge.
Also, once the system is in and operating, who is going to maintain it? True FI systems should require less maintenance but that is if it is all coordinated together. What about wire routing, chaffing of wires, burning of wiring and the fact that it is installed by you who is to say the harness you installed does not have "bugs" or incorrect routing. You will be the one maintaining that system so if you go the FI route be sure you , personally, are prepared to diagnose and repair your system because most shops out there trying to make a buck repairing vehicles will not work on your system--- it is a morphodite and as such if they take it in for repairs they will have to spend time understanding what is there, what has been done and add all of that to the diagnostic tree of figuring out the problem. It is not their problem or responibility to fix right away the pile you installed.
Service writers look at a job coming is as to can they do the job and make a profit from it. They look at a 30+ year old motorhome and usually turn it away. But say with the economy like it is they take it in, now they have to figure out whats going on and are you that sure "Bubba" will be able to get you back out on the road in a well adjusted motor?
A GMC is too heavy to push, too expensive to tow too far so it must be repaired where it breaks down, what assets will you have to deal with a modified motor out there on the road. These are not track queens where you can roll them back up on the trailer when they break down. You need the easiest maintainable, most understandable, most parts available and easiest to diagnose power plant you can have to me reliable. Today is today but what happens tomorrow. With an aftermarket FI system YOU will be the one to keep it running.
Fuel injection either throttle body or direct port will not give you better mileage than a well adjusted carb/dist. program. You will get altitude monitoring and adjustment, a quicker start up and an absolute shut down but there is no actual economy associated with most of that. The Holly and I think Howell systems do nothing to the ignition systems so all you are dealing with is the fuel system, heck ignition timing and all is where your economy can come from! Yes, FI systems should not need as much adjustment as a carb and dist., they need more maintenance but hey, thats a small price to pay to be able to pick up most any part needed at any parts store. Ask them for a part for a 76 Toro and you are in there.
I have literally followed customers cross country keeping them on the road with some FI systems! If you call me dead on the side of the road with a carb., chances are I can get you ruinning in 30 minutes. Do that with a FI system and you may or you may not get going. I yanked my direct port system from Larry because I was scared if it failed what I would do. It was first the wrong hardware, putting the computer in the engine compartment was a stupid move but I was sold that bill of good by someone who said "trust me". Won't happen again! And if it worked great but then failed, this person wanted me to go only to him for parts, do you really want to tie yourself to one particular company to keep your motorhome running. When you break down you need to have as many options as possible.
We live in America and as such can do things as we want and there are many people I respect who are running FI systems. They will tell you they like it and have no problems but my customers are less piddlers and more wanting to just use their coach without having to carry certain knowledge, parts and things. With an original carb/dist. motor that does not have to happen. If you want to put your reliability soley in your hands (sorry but you must think that way because if you get out there with limited technical expertice where you drop) because you will be screwed if you do not assume the worst.
Those that have FI will say they love the system and they are not wrong but if you are not really prepared you will be putting yourself in harms way if you go with FI. Be sure to understand fully what you are getting into, as the scouts say "Be Prepared".
As far as the specs of our cam goes, there are people out there that are willing to give away for free something we worked very hard to produce. Even the manufacturer we spent computer time at to taylor our cam will copy it-- there is no loyalty at all in industry today. If you have one of our motors with our cam I am most happy to totally discuss all that makes up what we worked very hard to build and help you get the most out of the motor. If someone is hell bent to short circuit our efforts and gives away our work around us-- then go for it. All they want to know for burning a chip are the characteristics of the cam which is a lowered power band to start just off idle and start to rol off just above 3000 RPM. It has a smooth power band with no dips and a gradual roll off. There are graphs on my web site for all to see. Our cam creates a low RPM, high torque "pump motor" will less high RPM content than most cams you run into. It is but
one part of a well balanced motor both in parts, machine work and building. It is warranted anywhere in the US which is another really important feature and can be installed at any authorised dealer in the country which says you don't have to have your coach towed to Florida which is a huge advantage. Cam specs are a relative issue, it's the whole balance of the motor that is the key. It's not all done just with the cam.
We have built several motors that were set up with FI, they ran fine after they were properly set up. They did not have any better mileage and did not produce more power, they ran fine and you can get that with a carb. Last year, my coach "Jay Gee" sporting a Q-jet beat the 1/4 drag time set previous by my coach"Larry" that was fitted with a direct port system! My hole shot was probably better but after that full throttle ruinning was all to the carb.
Larry- with Direct port---- 23.11 at 57.82 MPH
JayGee- with carb--------- 22.79 at 58.76 MPH
Record willer was Bob Heller at 62 MPH with a well balanced carb.!
I have the run tickets to prove it!
Please guys, I am not saying to down FI, just prepare yourself for what you are getting into and do not expect a huge difference in performance if any.
Jim Bounds
--------------------
Matt Colie
To All,
I did not quote Jim Bounds posting of 06 August 2009 08:01, so as to not overload the server.
If you did not read it because of its length and you are considering any modification to your vehicle, please read it and take it all to heart.
As one that has done some serious modifications to numerous vehicles, let me assure you that Jim is correct. As soon as it does not look like the pictures in the coloring book (service manual with outline drawings), you are on your own to trouble shoot and repair the vehicle. Lots of BTDT that I will not cover today.
I have also been part of two clean-paper engine development programs. The last was the Jeep 3.7/4.7. A very modern program with completely modern systems and we still had two mystery harness problems and several field issues (and this was just the wire (aka EE) stuff).
Executive Summary:
If you want a reliable road-worthy vehicle, freelance modifications are not advised. Any modification that does not include a reliable support system (like the Jims), may be cause for significant difficulty should a failure occur (and it probably will).
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
MIGUEL MENDEZ
Don't feel bad Jim, I'm the only latin guy in the world that does not sew or carry a knife
but i have a brand new FI system but will not install it, i have seen toooooooo many installs that are more work after the fact than they are worth to me. on guy lives in lake havasu and boy, does he got a ton of money in his already.
I'm with Jim B, a good tuned card and dist. and your off and running.
I'm sure there are many that swear by them, and thats good, keep them, but as mantioned, no better fuel mileage , so if thats what your looking for, might want to think it out, i would rather spend that money on the front end rebuild, money better spent i think.
Just my thoughts
--
Miguel
1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, rear bath w/ a 403 that i love.
GMC name : The other woman
Carleton Douglas
that have fuel injection what they should learn and what they should
travel with like spare parts manuals??
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
Carleton Douglas
a Fuel Injection guide for those that have already spent their money
and installed the GM/ Holley throttle bodies? Going back wards is
some times not an option.
I have a three ring binder with all the info that I would need if I
had trouble that I will carry in my coach, also spare sensors and
other important parts the could leave you on the side of the road.
With proven systems as the GM throttle body there should be very
little concern for dependability and reliability. If the there is a
problem with the cable you will know when you first start up the
engine
When you look back at the stock carb it was a problem for years until
the hot rod guys discovered how to deal with it.
I know of a GMCer that is building a very exotic fuel injection system
with the help of a engineer that should put out some power and save
some fuel.
Bottom line help is more important than a rant.
Jim Bounds have you ever ran a stock 455 fuel injection system on one
of your coaches?
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
Jim Bounds
When I pulled mine out it was running fine, I just could not get out of my head that the computer was perched on the firewall with the coil packs on top of them. The connectors were not "weatherpac" and just begging to corrode. I did not want to be caught out there with a problem. It was a cool looking set up, I just did not feel comfortable with it.
We are trying several different ideas to produce economy. Jim K. is providing me with a 4.11 diff to bolt up to a Olds 350 with our cam and some other goodies. Performance may be underwhelming but if driven properly, it might yeild economy--- we'll see! Yes yes, I am going to use a carb to start off with. after that set up has been tested, I would like to see if computer engine management systems would give me more power, who knows. So many have talked about this, I figured I would give it a try. The motor goes in tomorrow,
Jim Bounds
----------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Carleton Douglas <aecsd...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 3:08:51 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Coop Jasper cam specs
Chuck Field
Good point about the FI. As some know, I spent a lot of time and money on
the FI 454 from Dyno Sources (now out of business) and could never get it to
run right. Changed injectors, changed chips, changed computers; nothing
would run right day-in-day-out. When the motor went south at 14,000 we put
in a new reman 454 and went back to the Quadra jet. That rig is running
great and we will not be left on the side of the road looking for a chip guy
or computer. By the way, on our last trip we averaged 11 mpg. Works for
me.
Chuck Field
77 Royale
Bainbridge Is., WA
Hal Kading
Chuck,
Are you aware of the need to change the two oil relief valves in the 454 block if you have remote filter and cooler? With the stock relief valves remote filter and cooler are bypassed most or all the time. We found out the hard way, Buskirk turbo 454 lasted about 15,000 miles after we found the problem. Damage had already been done.
Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Stretch Las Cruces NM
Dennis Golden
Okay since I started this thread, I will close it with information that may help others.
First, I called and talked to the technical support folks at Jasper who told me that he thought they upgraded to the roller cam sometime in 2007 and that the Comp Cams part number for the Jasper (motor stock number with warrantee information in coach) was 42-207-4 which is the flat tappet (grind 255DEH) cam. Mine was installed in August of 2006.
Second, if I had the money, I would install the Mass-Flo EFI. I have seen the results of one GMC Motorhome with this system and it works very well. All most all the parts are off the shelf (available at most any auto parts store or dealler). I just cannot justify the money.
Third, Affordable Fuel Injection uses off the shelf parts (as does Howell) and they include electronic spark control standard (I'm told that Howell doesn't even offer ESC as an option anymore). They use the same connectors that are used on production vehicles. I have also seen messages from people who have installed Howell EFI then gone to Affordable to have new chips burned. They ask for compression ratio, cam specs and vacuum readings ahead of time so they can burn a custom chip (rather that just a Chevy open loop chip). They use GMC trottle bodies vs Holly. I feel that it is a better option than Howell.
Regards,
Dennis
--
Dennis Golden
1976 Glenbrook
Jim Kanomata
Don't forget to mention who is supplying the Mandrel bent exhaust system for
your project and the Thorley headers.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Jim Bounds
In the effort to come up with a more fuel efficient GMC, there has been talk all over the board about motors gears and all sorts of things trying to get better milege. It's all speculation no matter how insane or plausable an idea is until someone tries it and that is what we are doing.
Yes, I am doing this project inconjunction with Jim K., we are seeking out all the effective component parts to economy. We are taking a 350 Olds (rocket) motor, building it up with all of the internal advancements we have learned about with our crate motor program, we are using a bulletproof Manny tranny, Jim K. diff with 4.10 gears, his 3" free flow single muffler mandrel bent hot shot exhaust system along with some other goodies to come up with a "mileage mizer" 23' coach. We're going for a machine that runs 60 MPH because aerodynamically thats the "sweet spot", we are removing all external air blocks from the body, will get a thin, high profile tire -- lets just see what sort of fuel economy we can get out of a GMC!
Yes, I saved money for the electronics folks I worked for when they took my V8 Impala company sled and put me in a K car! It was not an exciting ride but I did save fuel. OK, so I won't be the first one up a steep grade (maybe), so I won;t take this machine to the drag strip next rally and cover up the stands with smoke (maybe), This coach just may be a view at our future. A downsized, pumped up motor-- who knows! We will soon! Thanks Jim K. for your support on this project,
Jim Bounds
----------------------
PS & BTW: We no longer build flat tappet lifter motors, we no longer use that cam and specs have changed since we built it up. Hey and while we're all telling truths-- we spent 12 hours of computer time (paid for it) coming up with a cam spec specifically for our coach. WE did the leg work and due diligence on it. There was nothing like it on the books until we took it upon ourselves to design it. After all of this, Comp Cams assigned it a part number and would sell it to anyone-- sorry but I think thats pretty rude! We went to Crane after they did that! No, there are no copywrites or patents on this sort of stuff but there is a moral obligation to support people who support them. I did not appreciate them offering our first cam to people who called them. In fact this situation put a wedge between myself and a GMC owner/friend who after brow beating me for weeks I gave in and sold him a cam. He looked up the number on the cam and
said I ripped him off by making $20 on the cam. So here in lies the problem when you work with vendors, they do what they want with your information! Yes, I am sensitive to this, yes I do not like the fact that with a part number people think they have unloacked all of our secrets. I tell you know there is more to a motor than a cam, it is the whole package or parts, machine work, assembly AND backing that makes a motor a reliable part of your coach!
Just like there is much, much more to our 23/350 project than an old Olds 350 bolted in where a 455 used to be. I just cannot stress this point too much. It's not like I'm hiding something but these are our motors and why would you want something that is "as good as" when you can have the real thing. If you think you can build an engine cheaper that will perform as good-- you may but why take a chance! We have had engine failures be we have had "people" to help out the issues and that, my friends is the big difference! I'll stop, sorry.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Kanomata <jimka...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Dennis Golden
Jim Bounds wrote on Wed, 12 August 2009 08:42
> Guys, here's one you can throw a post at.
> <snip>
> PS & BTW: We no longer build flat tappet lifter motors, we no longer use that cam and specs have changed since we built it up. Hey and while we're all telling truths-- we spent 12 hours of computer time (paid for it) coming up with a cam spec specifically for our coach. WE did the leg work and due diligence on it. There was nothing like it on the books until we took it upon ourselves to design it. After all of this, Comp Cams assigned it a part number and would sell it to anyone-- sorry but I think thats pretty rude! We went to Crane after they did that! No, there are no copywrites or patents on this sort of stuff but there is a moral obligation to support people who support them. I did not appreciate them offering our first cam to people who called them. In fact this situation put a wedge between myself and a GMC owner/friend who after brow beating me for weeks I gave in and sold him a cam. He looked up the number on the cam and
> said I ripped him off by making $20 on the cam. So here in lies the problem when you work with vendors, they do what they want with your information! Yes, I am sensitive to this, yes I do not like the fact that with a part number people think they have unloacked all of our secrets. I tell you know there is more to a motor than a cam, it is the whole package or parts, machine work, assembly AND backing that makes a motor a reliable part of your coach!
>
> Just like there is much, much more to our 23/350 project than an old Olds 350 bolted in where a 455 used to be. I just cannot stress this point too much. It's not like I'm hiding something but these are our motors and why would you want something that is "as good as" when you can have the real thing. If you think you can build an engine cheaper that will perform as good-- you may but why take a chance! We have had engine failures be we have had "people" to help out the issues and that, my friends is the big difference! I'll stop, sorry.
Jim,
You missed the whole point of this thread. The information that I was looking for is about a motor that was purchased from YOU and installed by Miguel in 2006. I like others are tired of the vapor lock issues caused by the ethanol in todays fuel. I am looking at fuel injection to help solve these issues. The vendor that I am looking at asked for the compression ratio, cam specs (if other than factory stock) and vacuum readings so they could burn a chip that would work better than what is supplied by Howell in their repective controllers.
I felt put off when I called and you were somewhat evasive about what was in a motor that was purchased from you by the PO. I couldn't even find out if I had the flat tappet or roller cam.
Regards,
Dennis
--
Dennis Golden
1976 Glenbrook
Jim White
Great rant BTW!
Concerning transmissions, is it possible to have Manny adapt a four sped
for your 350 project. I know Olds had a 325 4 Speed Transmission but I
don't know if it is strong enough for the GMCMH.
Good luck on your project-
Jim "Doc" White
Wintergreen, VA
75 GMC GB
****************
Jim Bounds
Please excuse me but you must see it from my position. I totally appreciate you having one of my motors and certainly will do anything in my power to help you with it. I would be stupider than I look if I did not take that approach and I always do.
I probably get to sensative about the cam thing. A couple of years ago I was going on about the specs and everything we were doing to these motors. The first couple came out and folks were impressed, we had issues to work on and I had several people actually some here on the net help us with the program. Then one day at a rally, someone asked me why Comp was selling my cam. Actually is was someone here on the net-- I freaked out at Comp., it did no good they said there were no copywrites. Then a couple of people found out and it felt like someone had put my baby pictures on the internet for all to see. I felt violated, sorry but after you had worked out so many problems for them to just sell the thing outright-- I really did not want to talk about it anymore.
We taylored the cam to more issues and the roller cam we use today has different specs than the forst one. That cam is a good one though and if you use it at least give me some credit for it. And the guy that blew up at me because he thought I was ripping him off selling him one, I hope you better understand the issues now.
I guess I am just to protective of things like this but hey, shouldn't I be? Caspro would not give his cam specs out and I bet Mondello won't either! They keep covers over the cars whil in the pits at NASCAR races to keep the competition in the dark. You cannot get a diagram of a PG Dynamics power converer, or Todd when they were around. Companies scratch off cip numbers on PC boards, dip boards in black resin and all in the name of "propriatary"--what can I say I look at this cam stuff like that too. You want to build a better motor, go ahead but you design it. Folks think anyone can build a good motor but "good" is a relative term. We worked hard to come up with a motor that does what your does. BTW, how does yours run? Bet better than any stock built motor you will get. Better in this application than most any motor you will find. I have close to 60 on the street which is telling me they seem to stay together.
I will most certainly help your FI folks tune for your (my) motor. Give me their number, I will personally help them. Sorry for coming off whatever, it's just me getting weird about something-- excuse me. I want to help,
Jim Bounds
------------------------
Jim Bounds
You know I gotta stop doing that and please guys laugh at me when I get cranked up, I should not do that & I am sorry.
Hey, you missed my point, I was doing pretty good about the 23/350 project till the end. Further proof I need to shorten my posts, I could stay out of hot water easier! The point was this new project has several people involved, Jim K. appreciated the attempt and in his usual helping manner wanted to throw in some of his goodies which I really appreciate. A was going to do the single muffler deal here locally but man this kit is reallt built well. You could not build a better set of pipes for his money.
We just slammed in that 4.10 gear today. Glyptol inside, painted teeth to see the wear pattern, man it is a beautigul thing! I'll post a couple of pics of it tomorrow on my daily pose page.
So other than leaping off the start line, what do you think will happen at 60 MPH? I hope the curve of the motor will meet the curve of the gear, the exhaust and all of it to give an economical ride--- anyone have any ideas?
Thats the point I was making, having a great time playing! Wish you all could be here,
Jim Bounds
------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Jim White <james...@cyberwind.net>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 12:05:40 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Coop Jasper cam specs
Hey Jim-
Great rant BTW!
Concerning transmissions, is it possible to have Manny adapt a four sped
for your 350 project. I know Olds had a 325 4 Speed Transmission but I
don't know if it is strong enough for the GMCMH.
Good luck on your project-
Jim "Doc" White
Wintergreen, VA
75 GMC GB
****************
Jim Bounds wrote:
> Guys, here's one you can throw a post at. I'm so close to the project I probably forgot saying anything.
Jim White
Oh I got your point about several people being involved, and if it is
successful, they will be more than happy to share the credit for your
hard work. But it appears that you missed my point. I've had several
GMC cars with the 350 engine and they all had a four speed auto. Olds
did make one and I was hoping that you would consider using it on an
experimental basis.
If you could supply GMC owners with a rebuilt fuel injected 350, with a
411 final drive, and a four speed with overdrive that results in better
gas mileage, there would be a long line outside your shop. I wanted to
consider using a Northstar engine in a GMC but the torque just isn't
there. Hopefully, the 411 will overcome the torque issue.
Keep us informed and understand that we ain't laughing at you. We
applaud your efforts on our behalf.
Doc
***************
Ken Henderson
Ken H.
-----Original Message-----
...
So other than leaping off the start line, what do you think will happen at
60 MPH? I hope the curve of the motor will meet the curve of the gear, the
exhaust and all of it to give an economical ride--- anyone have any ideas?
Thats the point I was making, having a great time playing! Wish you all
could be here,
Jim Bounds
------------------------
_______________________________________________
Jim Bounds
No, I certainly got your point on the 4 speed tranny and yes, I had thought of that and it may still go in but selecting things I wanted to not limit it's ability to be reproduced. That 4 speed tranny is yet another unique part we wouls have to source, the exciting thing about the 425 trans is Manny. You must understand there is no one on this planet that has the expertice Manny has on our trans, no one has the internal replacement hard parts and no other niche undustry as we have has the luxury of having someone who can build transmissions to the level he can. If possible I want to use his transmissions. Until I started using his units, I felt like installing transmissions with wing nuts! The builder would say,"try this one"-- heck, I don;t want to TRY a transmission, they are a (*&^$ to install. I want them to work forst time and with Manny's they do! If I have to source yet another reliable builder or parts for another older piece of
hardware I see a possible problem and those are things you must seriously consider. At this point, I will not install a transmission that Manny did not build--- period. Doing that puts my customers in harms way!
So we may try one after we try the 425, it is a more robust trans, more of them around and with someone building them to a quality level it is the forst choice. Yes, gears are the trick
Also I feel an important feature is the "bolt up" feature of the Olds 350 motor. Bolt ons from the 403 fit perfect, brackets, intake, mounts, bell housing-- all of it. I want a retrofit with as few mods as possible. The Northstar thing was investigated by Pete P. which I respect his abilities-- he gave it a college try but ended up with so many mods that it got to the question "why do it". After seeing all that has been tried, I think this is the first, best choice.
I appreciate your suggestion and yes, you are right on with the thought pattern here,
Jim Bounds
----------------------------
Jim Bounds
Drew said he loved the motor and had done many cool things with it. I think about those old Dodge 318 motorhomes, what pigs! I think though part of their problem was the fact that their "brick" shape caused such an aerodynamic disadvantage that anything above 30 MPH would cause too much air friction and dang did they drive like something was holding them back!
I will have to keep my foot out of it, kinda like flooring the K car, thats an exercise in futility-- it just would not go and I can see this coach topping out and pretty much not go any faster. When the motor reaches it's peak, it will be all over. I hope that happens around 60 MPH.
See though I'm willing to walk out on that limb and jump up and down. It does not scare me to fail, I learn from that. At least we will know soon, lets see what happens
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Ken Henderson <ken0he...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:23:45 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Coop Jasper cam specs
Ken Henderson
Ken H.
-----Original Message-----
...
See though I'm willing to walk out on that limb and jump up and down. It
does not scare me to fail, I learn from that. At least we will know soon,
lets see what happens
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
Hey, Gene, whadda ya think? 8-10 mpg? :-)
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
Matt Colie
GMCWiperMan wrote on Thu, 13 August 2009 09:01
> One of the Rules of Life: There are no failures, only lessons.
>
> Ken H.
Ken,
The only thing better than learning from your own lessons, is learning from those of others. They are much less painful and easier to survive.
Matt -who has survived some "interesting" lessons
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
Rick Denney
> Part of the reason in doing this was all of the reports about the
> 350 Olds motor and how it had been used for many years in
> performance application. Not a big block but still a formidable
> force. It runs more revs and thats what I hope will do the trick along with the 4.10 gear.
Without the ability to gear it down in highway cruise, however, the
engine will consume a lot of its own energy. I think I remember seeing
somewhere that it takes 50 horsepower just to turn the 455 at 5000
RPMs. We need another 50 or 60 horsepower to push our motorhomes along
at highway speed, and I made that calculation a while back using the
published drag coefficient for the GMC, which I bet was calculated
using a very slick model (as in, no mirrors, pods, racks, etc., etc.).
I have not done any calculations, but if the relationship between
power and RPMs is only linear, being able to drop the engine from 3500
RPMs at highway cruise to 2500 might reduce power requirements by
maybe 10 horsepower, which could be as much as 20% of the power needed
to push the box along at 60 mph. That may be overstating it, but if
you're working at the margins, it could be important.
One of the keys to modern vehicles getting such better mileage as
their forebears is the addition of overdrive gearing and a lockup
torque converter. Of course, the tranny would have to be able to jump
out of overdrive immediately when power is requested to prevent
lugging and excessive internal stress.
My wife's uncle owned a Tioga class C motorhome--about 22 feet
long--powered by a computer-controlled Chevy small block. He got 11
mpg. Nothing about that motorhome was aerodynamic, of course.
I understand the difficulty in finding a four-speed tranny for our
application, and that's probably a good enough reason to give up on
the idea, but don't underestimate the effect it might have on the
experiment.
Rick "recalling that the Sprinter/Mercedes-based motorhomes have
five-speed trannies with a very small engine" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia