[GMCnet] starting the engine

[kelly stockwell]

I'm over a year in, 2000 miles and feeling pretty good. I've got a grease gun, I've used it, I've checked all fluids (not the differential yet), and
changed the oil.

I still struggle with starting the rig. After it's been running and sits for even a handful of hours it starts up. If it's stilling longer, I'm
still not sure what to do.

What I've been doing
put the key to one click below start and hold the gas down, slowly count to 20
turn the key and let it crank.

What I think that does is 1 set the choke, 2 turn on the fuel pump to move fuel to the carb. Is the second part right?

How long do I let it crank before pausing and starting over? How long should it take? Outside people tell me it smells like gas (i'm flooding it),
but why can't I smell that inside, i'm right over the engine?

Is letting it crank 30 seconds OK?

When it does start it often stalls right off, I crank again and it starts again quickly and I give it gas and rev it to keep it from stalling.

Am I doing it wrong? On my list is change the small fuel filter in the carb, haven't done that yet. Could there be a problem or am I just doing it
wrong? I do notice more energetic starter motor noises if I hold in the batter link to the coach batteries but it doesn't make it start sooner

thanks
kelly



--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

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[Shaun]

Do you know if you have an electronic fuel pump?
--
1977 Palm Beach, 455, mostly stock and original

[kelly stockwell]

I am pretty sure I do, and the PO replaced it just before I got it.

He mentioned putting in a new fuel pump for me hoping it would stop any vapor lock issues. As far as I can tell I've not had that.

Is there an easy way for me to tell?

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[Carl Stouffer]

Kelly,

If you have an electric fuel pump, you should be able to hear it come on when you turn the ignition key on (to the run position). If you can't hear
anything from the driver's seat, get out and walk around to the left (driver's) side of the coach, lean over and listen for a pulsating sound or a
motor whine.

It also sounds like your choke is either non existent, or not adjusted correctly. With fuel in the carburetor (why you turn the ignition on for a
short period to let the electric pump prime the carb.), you should be able to 'set' the choke by pressing the gas pedal to the floor once or twice,
then letting off the gas pedal completely. IF the choke is functioning properly, the engine should start up after cranking for a few seconds, or
running through a few strokes.

You can check this by opening your engine hatch, removing the air cleaner (or at least the top) so you can see the choke (the butterfly valve on the
primaries toward the front of the engine). If you don't feel comfortable adjusting the choke, just about any old school mechanic, who is used to
working on carbureted vehicles, can do it for you in a matter of minutes, IF all the linkages are in tact.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[James Hupy]

Kelly, pretty sure that your choke is not set properly. You could turn the
key on and listen for an electric fuel pump to run. That would fill the
carburetor float bowl with fuel if an electric pump were present. If no
pump, it won't accomplish much, EXCEPT WHEN YOU HAVE AN ELECTRIC CHOKE PULL
OFF. If you have an electric choke pull off, and you turn the ignition on,
and the choke is wired so it comes on with the key, it will open the choke
prematurely.
Assuming that you DON'T HAVE an electric fuel pump, and that your
electric choke is wired from the alternator so that it does not open
prematurely, the starting process should go something like the following.
Insert key into ignition.
Press down slightly on the throttle ONE TIME ONLY. This will set the
choke.
With your foot off the throttle, turn the key to start. Engine should
crank over and start and run on fast idle without stalling. It should start
within 10 - 15 seconds of cranking.
IF NO START, something is not correct.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[kelly stockwell]

Thanks all!

I wonder if my choke has changed, I swear last year when I read about pushing the pedal to the floor before starting (and not touching it while
cranking) it started perfectly for awhile.

I will check the choke (opening the hatch etc). Heading to San Diego for work tomorrow, but home over the weekend to check these things out. It does
start like a champ when warm.

Also, I'm not sure I hear a fuel pump go on. another thing I'll check on. And, i'll finally get to that fuel filter.

-kelly

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

If the coach sitss for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate. If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
________________________________________
From: Gmclist [gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] on behalf of kelly stockwell [sno...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 20:16
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

[kelly stockwell]

Thank you for the suggestion. when you say engine heat, do you mean from cranking the starter? When it's warm it starts perfectly; just trying to
make sure I understand.
When I first got the coach I constantly flooded it- like a newb
-kelly


[quote title=k2gkk wrote on Sun, 06 August 2017 21:25]If the coach sitss for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate.

If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal
to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
________________________________________

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

The procedure I suggested is for COLD start. However, heat from the running or warm engine MAY cause fuel to evaporate from carb AFTER engine is shut down which COULD cause your later hard start from cold.


Good luck!


Mac in OKC

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of kelly stockwell <sno...@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 20:39

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

Thank you for the suggestion. when you say engine heat, do you mean from cranking the starter? When it's warm it starts perfectly; just trying to
make sure I understand.
When I first got the coach I constantly flooded it- like a newb
-kelly

[quote title=k2gkk wrote on Sun, 06 August 2017 21:25]If the coach sits for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate.

If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal
to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~

~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb> ~

[Richard Denney]

The cold start procedure is always the same: turn key to Run, press the
pedal once to set the automatic choke, then turn key to Start with foot off
the pedal.

If the carb is dry (from boiling out after the last shutdown, as D.C.
describes), and the engine uses a mechanical pump, one must crank the
engine long enough to pump fuel into the carburetor.

If the carb is dry and the engine uses an electric pump, the carb bowl will
start to fill when the key was first moved to Run.

If the carb has fuel, the engine will start, no matter what kind of pump it
uses, assuming the choke works and is set properly.

That can be tested. With the engine cold and the air filter housing
removed, press the gas pedal once. The choke plates should close and stay
closed, and the high-idle cam (between the choke stove and the carb body,
on the starboard side of the carb) should position itself to the high lobe.
If it doesn't, loosen the screws on the coke stove (which hold in the
Bakelite part) and rotate it until it just sets the high idle during that
one press. (You can reset the automatic choke to test it again by pushing
the high-idle cam to the low lobe while the gas pedal is slightly
depressed, using a small screwdriver.)

If the engine is hot enough that it won't engage the choke, start by
holding the gas pedal halfway down and turning the key to Start.

Rick "easier to adjust than it sounds" Denney

On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 11:25 PM D C _Mac_ Macdonald <k2...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> The procedure I suggested is for COLD start. However, heat from the
> running or warm engine MAY cause fuel to evaporate from carb AFTER engine
> is shut down which COULD cause your later hard start from cold.
>

--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

[Chris Geils via Gmclist]

For cold start problems you can check 2 main issues relatively easily with the hatch open and air cleaner lid removed and the engine OFF.;
1) choke operation - before you touch anything else, while the engine is still cold, simply press the gas pedal one time all the way to the floor. The
choke plate should fully close. If the choke plate is even partially open you have some linkage adjusting to do. If it does not close fully it will
be very hard to start COLD (engine is at ambient temp).
2) check for fuel in the float bowl. You can do this by pressing the gas pedal and looking down the primary bores of the carburetor, but NOT while
cranking! Just with the engine off you should see two small streams spray as you move the pedal - assuming your accelerator pump works properly. If
there is no "pump shot" either the bowl is empty, the accelerator pump is bad or both. The fuel can "go away" from the float bowl for two reasons; a)
the engine was very hot last time you shut it down or it's been several days - in either case the contents of the float bowl evaporated. b) the well
plugs on the underside of the float bowl leak and the contents drip into your intake manifold (can be fixed with epoxy). In either case you must
crank for several seconds to fill the bowl back up. Running the electric pump for 5 -10 seconds before cranking will help wth this.
Finally I would not recommend cranking the engine for more than 10 seconds at time with a 20 second wait before recranking. Cranking longer will
overheat the starter and shorten its life.
--
Chris Geils - Twin Cities
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; Headers, Progressive Dynamics 9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, 50k mi

[Larry Davick]

This won’t be any help - but I haven’t posted in a long time and I feel like tossing in 2-bits.

One of the first things I had Jim K’s guys install was an electric fuel pump. Turn the key and I could hear that woodpecker come to life. I was going to mount some rubber isolators on the frame so I wouldn’t have to listen to it until one day, when the coach didn’t start, I realized the woodpecker wasn’t home! I shinnied under the frame and found a loose connection. Peck-peck-peck I was running again.

I’ve never made friends with a carburetor, so I finally decided to install the Howell EFI with EBL and electronic distributor control. Over the past 2 1/2 years I haven’t given the motorhome much love, but when I go to start it up and give a run, it starts on the 3 revolution of the engine. Every time.

Oh - also the engine never does that embarrassing run-on after the switch is off, and there’s no such thing as vapor lock, so far.

So the take-away for me was to update to ’90’s technology to make up for my poor shade-tree mechanical skills.

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Distributor

[Chris Tyler]

I kinda think of the old school carbs as an anti theft device- people who came up with fuel injection and electronics have no idea thow to finesse a
carbed vehicle to start when its balky. In a similar fashion, having a manual trans or especially a 3 on the tree? Few know how to drive them
anymore.

Might want to chaeck if you have the lectric pump wired to an oil pressure switch. If so, it wont come on unles the engine is cranked enough to get
to ~5-10#
Its handy to have an over ride switch on the run circuit- lets you prime the bowl after sitting
Qjets are notorious for leaking down the fuel bowls via the press in plugs at the bottom.
--
76 Glenbrook

[Bruce Hart]

If the PO used an oil safety switch, turning on the key will not energize
the electric fuel pump unless a priming circuit has been installed.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:24 AM, Chris Tyler <dtyl...@tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class

[kelly stockwell]

Thanks again!

I'm sorry I won't be able to report back my results until Saturday... but I've got an excellent idea of what to look for

cheers
kelly

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[John R. Lebetski]

1) If it worked properly last year but not now, it could be gum on the linkages moving parts and fast idle pivot. I like WD-40 for this as it cleans
and disolves and leaves a touch of light lube. Manuals say "do not lubricate" as they don't want the lubricant itself to gum, but rebuilders recommend
WD-40 to clean and preserve the finish.
2) if it starts then falters after a few seconds then the choke vac pull off needs adjustment, replacement, or the 1" vac hose feeding it replaced.
When set right it should transition almost like EFI. This is a very fine adjustment but makes a huge difference when correct. The pulloff cracks the
choke open in the seconds after it starts a set amount so it won't choke out.
3) you may have developed bowl plug leaks in the that need epoxy.
4) after sitting a few weeks longer cranking times are normal with a stock setup. If this happens every morning on a trip, check 1, 2, 3 above.
5) one final overlooked thing that is a quick cold engine off test is to be sure the choke unloader is set correctly. With choke now working and a
cold engine and air cleaner lid off, set the choke with one full pedal press. Now press the pedal to the floor and in the last 1/2" or so of pedal
pressure you should see the choke rotate open about 1/4". This is the "clear flood" setup where if flooded you hold pedal fully down and crank per the
manual. However for this to work your pedal cable has to be fully opening the throttle in the first place.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[kelly stockwell]

engine hatch open, air cleaner cover off.

I push the pedal, i hear something but nothing moves that I can see (the top plate toward the front is the choke, right?)
smells like raw fuel in there but i don't see any. it's been sitting for a week now


will try to upload a photo

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[kelly stockwell]

something under that top plate is moving

but it doesn't stay. I pull the chain or push the pedal it moves but then comes back to the resting spot

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p63532-img-24144.html

what's the small green thing? is that a vacuum line or fuel?

i'm so ignorant

[Keith V]

Theres SO much to learn, at least you're trying :D


Yes the open plate is the choke, if the engine is cold it should be closed to make the engine start better.


look own through the choke opening and there will be a plate, called a butterfly, that moves when you push the gas pedal.

There is another one under the one in back that is closed, so one on top and one further down, but the top one won't open until you floor it while driving.

The 'choke plate' in back is the vacuum secondary. It only opens when / if the gas pedal is way down and the engine is under load. It's near impossible to get to open sitting in the driveway


The green thing looks like a vacuum filter or check valve

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of kelly stockwell <sno...@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 2:35:51 PM

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

[kelly stockwell]

Ok, so i'm right about what the choke is, and that the green thing is in a vacuum line

Now, how is the pedal going to the floor (once) supposed to close the choke? I can move things but I don't know what should move together, what
should move the lever that moves the choke flapper?

I'm not having luck looking at images online for what moves what plates.

And finally, there's supposed to be a tiny gas filter in the carb, looks like a small gold microphone.

how do i get to/change that?

thanks
kelly

[Keith V]

if you move the throttle by hand at the carb ( where the throttle cable attaches ) the choke butterfly should close.

there are a bunch of linkages involved that may or may not be working as expected.


On the passenger side of the carb is the choke spring that is supposed to move the butterfly ( flapper ), but there can be a dozen reasons it doesn't.

The simplest is it's mis adjusted. There are 3 screws on the face that hold a black plastic piece in place. Rotating that adjusts the choke.

With the engine cold you rotate it till it just closes, then snug up the screws.


If your choke system is working it will open as the engine warms up.

Note that the choke will NOT open until you blip the throttle as the mechanism keeps it in place. If you grew up in the north with carberated cars you will remember them racing untill they warmed up and you kicked the throttle.


The gas filter is screwed into the front of the carb, theres a metal tube that snakes around the radiator hose and connects to the carb. The filter is inside there.

It's usually on too tight and it will leak gas when you open it. so have some paper towels ready. Use 2 wrenches, 1 to hold the filter and the second to loosen the gas line, then loosen the filter.

You have to bend the gas line a little to get it all apart.

The filter has a right and wrong way to go in, I always forget which is right, so check the archives!

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of kelly stockwell <sno...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 2:45:28 PM

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

[Wayne Rogewski]

Fuel filter change video. Easier to watch than type. Use line wrenches. so you dont strip the fuel line. ALWAYS put a second wrench on the filter
housing so you dont damage that attempting to loosen the fuel line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK0sqMI6mMs




When you push the gas pedal to the floor the choke plate should snap closed. You will see the plate close up and probably hear it. This is on a
stone cold engine... If on a cold engine that choke plate is not nearly all the way closed up, it may need some adjustment. I recall that coach came
from Meeshigun. Climate being somewhat similar I would be surprised if it wasn't correctly set up.
--
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

Pushing the accelerator pedal to the floor SLOWLY when the engine is cold, frees up the choke activation spring to allow the butterfly to close.


D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach

k2gkk + hotmail dot com

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of kelly stockwell <sno...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 14:45

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

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[kelly stockwell]

Keith
Nothing on top of the carb (butterfly) closed. it stayed partly open. By the throttle you mean on the driver's side the chain. That's what moved
when I stepped on the pedal. A flapper below the choke did move with the throttle. It could be so out of wack it doesnt move?

On the passenger side, it seemed like nothing connected the flapper of the choke to any of the parts I could move with my hand. I can move the choke
on the passenger side and moving the choke itself.

I'm not sure I'm fully explaining it right.

It did start right up 1/2 hour after I first started it; so it runs fine and I believe the choke is not closing, it's staying partly open.


I'll look for that fuel filter, I wasn't sure if it was in the carburetor or outside it. Sounds like it's outside it and I should follow the metal
fuel lines.

thanks for the continued help! I had an RX-7 with a manual choke I pulled out, it would pop back in once it was warmed up. Manual meant I determined
when to use it.
kelly



[quote title=Keith V wrote on Mon, 14 August 2017 16:20]if you move the throttle by hand at the carb ( where the throttle cable attaches ) the choke

butterfly should close.

there are a bunch of linkages involved that may or may not be working as expected.


On the passenger side of the carb is the choke spring that is supposed to move the butterfly ( flapper ), but there can be a dozen reasons it
doesn't.

The simplest is it's mis adjusted. There are 3 screws on the face that hold a black plastic piece in place. Rotating that adjusts the choke.

With the engine cold you rotate it till it just closes, then snug up the screws.


If your choke system is working it will open as the engine warms up.

Note that the choke will NOT open until you blip the throttle as the mechanism keeps it in place. If you grew up in the north with carberated cars you
will remember them racing untill they warmed up and you kicked the throttle.


The gas filter is screwed into the front of the carb, theres a metal tube that snakes around the radiator hose and connects to the carb. The filter is
inside there.

It's usually on too tight and it will leak gas when you open it. so have some paper towels ready. Use 2 wrenches, 1 to hold the filter and the second
to loosen the gas line, then loosen the filter.

You have to bend the gas line a little to get it all apart.

The filter has a right and wrong way to go in, I always forget which is right, so check the archives!

________________________________

From: Gmclist on behalf of kelly stockwell

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 2:45:28 PM

To: mailto:gmc...@list.gmcnet.org

[kelly stockwell]

Mac
I saw nothing move when I first pushed the pedal down.

k2gkk wrote on Mon, 14 August 2017 17:21

> Pushing the accelerator pedal to the floor SLOWLY when the engine is cold, frees up the choke activation spring to allow the butterfly to close.
>
>
> D C "Mac" Macdonald
> Amateur Radio K2GKK
> Since 30 November '53
> USAF and FAA, Retired
> Member GMCMI & Classics
> Oklahoma City, OK
> "The Money Pit"
> TZE166V101966
> '76 ex-Palm Beach
> k2gkk + hotmail dot com
>
>
> ________________________________

> From: Gmclist on behalf of kelly stockwell

> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 14:45
> To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine
>
> Ok, so i'm right about what the choke is, and that the green thing is in a vacuum line
>
> Now, how is the pedal going to the floor (once) supposed to close the choke? I can move things but I don't know what should move together, what
> should move the lever that moves the choke flapper?
>
> I'm not having luck looking at images online for what moves what plates.
>
> And finally, there's supposed to be a tiny gas filter in the carb, looks like a small gold microphone.
>
> how do i get to/change that?
>
> thanks
> kelly
> --
> 1978 Kingsley
> Putney VT
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> Gmclist Info Page - GMCnet

> list.gmcnet.org
> To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Gmclist Archives. Using Gmclist: To post a message to all the list members, send
> email ...
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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[kelly stockwell]

thank you for the video link! Nothing snaps closed. What I need to figure out is what should be connected to what to make it snap closed. It
doesn't move at all; like the link is gone

77Royale wrote on Mon, 14 August 2017 16:34

> Fuel filter change video. Easier to watch than type. Use line wrenches. so you dont strip the fuel line. ALWAYS put a second wrench on the
> filter housing so you dont damage that attempting to loosen the fuel line.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK0sqMI6mMs
>
>
>
>
> When you push the gas pedal to the floor the choke plate should snap closed. You will see the plate close up and probably hear it. This is on a
> stone cold engine... If on a cold engine that choke plate is not nearly all the way closed up, it may need some adjustment. I recall that coach
> came from Meeshigun. Climate being somewhat similar I would be surprised if it wasn't correctly set up.

--

1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

I just know how it is supposed to work! Know nothing about how to fix it!


HAR!


Mac in OKC


________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of kelly stockwell <sno...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 18:02

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

Mac
I saw nothing move when I first pushed the pedal down.

k2gkk wrote on Mon, 14 August 2017 17:21
> Pushing the accelerator pedal to the floor SLOWLY when the engine is cold, frees up the choke activation spring to allow the butterfly to close.
>
>
> D C "Mac" Macdonald
> Amateur Radio K2GKK
> Since 30 November '53
> USAF and FAA, Retired
> Member GMCMI & Classics
> Oklahoma City, OK
> "The Money Pit"
> TZE166V101966
> '76 ex-Palm Beach
> k2gkk + hotmail dot com

[Keith V]

I think we're beyond what we can do remotely with pictures.

My guess / bet is that the choke is out of adjustment, maybe because the heater is rusted through...

You need to find someone local that can lay hands on it or send it to Dick Patterson, Or Jim B?

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of D C _Mac_ Macdonald <k2...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 8:35:36 PM

[John R. Lebetski]

1)From your picture the fresh air line to the choke stove looks kinked up top where it draws clean air from back of carb.
2) the hot side of the line coming from the manifold to the carb looks rusted. This means that the loop down in the manifold is probably rotted away.

3) this means the choke thermostat will not get proper heat signal causing the choke to not open properly
4) so-- because of this someone has probably loosened the 3 screws on the choke thermostat and de-adjusted the thermostat to the Lean side to
circumvent the choke staying on.
The choke heat lines will need replacing, choke spring and housing cleaned, then re-adjusted
My arm chair diagnostics from the picture

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Billy Massey]

Here's some parts:
http://appliedgmc.com/search.itml?icQuery=choke

Actually, a modern electric choke would be nice and close off that choke
stove. Jim can supply those as well.

And, close off the carb warping, manifold cracking exhaust crossover
ports. haha One good upgrade deserves another.....

How far are you from New England RV / Mike Glover in Plaistow, NH?

bdub

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:44 AM, John R. Lebetski wrote:

> 1)From your picture the fresh air line to the choke stove looks kinked up
> top where it draws clean air from back of carb.
> 2) the hot side of the line coming from the manifold to the carb looks
> rusted. This means that the loop down in the manifold is probably rotted
> away.
>
> 3) this means the choke thermostat will not get proper heat signal causing
> the choke to not open properly
> 4) so-- because of this someone has probably loosened the 3 screws on the
> choke thermostat and de-adjusted the thermostat to the Lean side to
> circumvent the choke staying on.
> The choke heat lines will need replacing, choke spring and housing
> cleaned, then re-adjusted
> My arm chair diagnostics from the picture
>

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Pressing the throttle on a cold non-running engine should result in the front (choke) plate closing. If it does not, investigate whay. With the
three screws loose on the black round spring cover on the passenger side of the carb, rotating the black part with the throttle pressed and engine off
should move the choke plate in either direction. If it dies, turn it until the plate >just< closes and tighten the three screws. This will be close
to the correct setting. UIf the choke doesn't close, or binds, stop and figure put why and correct. Then set it again and try cranking the engine.
This assumes a stock setup with a 'stove pipe' running ffrom the stove on the manifold to the choke spring assembly. If you have a wire instead of a
heat tube, the setup will be a bit different.

--johnny

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[kelly stockwell]

Again, thank you all. I realize it's hard to help diagnose with a photo or two. I have a friend who works on his cars willing to come take a look
this weekend. The comments on the vac lines are interesting; I'll take a look at that and see if anything is rotted. The fact is it drives fine, and
starts quickly when warmed up. So I'm hopeful it's just the choke out of wack. Last year when I posted here (or read here) about setting the choke
with the pedal to the floor it began starting right away when cold. So it was working not too long ago.

I'm 2+ hours from Plaistow NH (through what I imagine is some crappy traffic- being from VT crappy traffic is probably not what anyone else would call
it :). I know Mike is there and am grateful to have him nearby. So far I haven't talked to him or needed him.


What I really don't understand is how the choke plate should be connected to the bimetal spring contraption on the passenger side. The workings of
the plate and the movement of the levers don't touch each other, but I don't know how they're supposed to.

Hopefully this weekend my friend and I can diagnose. For now I'm certainly not dead in the water. With the choke not working, what's the best way to
cold start it? Stab the pedal down once or twice while cranking, and only crank for 10 seconds at a time?


-kelly


bdub wrote on Tue, 15 August 2017 10:23

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[kelly stockwell]

How does the electric choke work differently?

kelly

[Richard Denney]

The standard choke uses a thermostatic coil that winds up the choke shaft
when it is cold, and unwinds it when it is warm. It is heated using a choke
stove, which is a loop of tubing that projects down into the exhaust
crossover in the intake manifold. A tube is connected to it and to the side
of the choke thermostat housing, which is the bell-shaped projection out
the starboard side of the carburetor.

The choke stove can rot out, sending exhaust gas directly to the carb
thermostat.

An electric choke works one of two ways, but both ways replace the choke
stove in the intake manifold. The method I prefer uses a temperature sensor
that is clamped under an intake manifold bolt, and an actuator that mounts
in the thermostat housing to replace the coil. It pulls the choke off as
the engine warms up. Both methods need power from the ignition circuit to
pull off the choke as the engine warms.

Rick "who has been down this road" Denney

--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

[Rob Mueller]

Kelly,

The 455 & 403 engines in our GMC's use a thermostatic choke so Google "Thermostatic choke" and you'll find heaps of info on how they
work.

Then Google "Electric choke" and you'll find out how they work.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of kelly stockwell
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:19 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine

[Wayne Rogewski]

The choke plate has a small metal tab that protrudes through the passenger side of the carb. This tab fits loosely into a slot of the of end of the
metal choke spring which is covered by a plastic cover. As the metal in the spring expands and collapses due to the hot and cold of the engine the
spring will "tighten/wind up" with cold, and will loosen/unwind when it gets hot. The winding up or down of the spring is what moves the choke plate
open or closed on the actual carb.

So with a cold engine, the spring is wound up and it forces the choke plate in the closed position. As heat is applied to the choke spring either
through a choke stove/chimney tube with engine heat (which you have currently)or through an electrical connection (electric Choke)the choke plate will
gradually open up. This takes a few minutes to do as the engine warms.

An electric choke is essentially the same as far as parts, but there is one wire which needs to go to 12V when the key is on. (Key on Hot) With an
electric choke it does not matter if the engine is actually running, As long as the key is on the choke will warm up via electricity and will
gradually open up. They are adjusted in the same manner as a non electric choke.

Why someone wants an electric choke? Perhaps the choke stove pipes are bad (mine were) You can cap off / block off the choke plate on the intake
manifold and then run a single wire to key hot 12V and install the electric choke. It takes all of 10 minutes to install it.

They both work on the same principles.



That said. A hot engine when shut down will have the choke in the fully open position as it locks. To unlock the choke and get the butterfly plate
to close one must push the gas pedal to the floor, This squirts a bit of gas in the carb, and also snaps shut the choke butterfly plate.

You loosen, not remove, the three slotted screws with small hold down plates on the choke housing and rotate the assembly toward the rear of the coach
to adjust the choke to close more fully. Rotating it toward the front of the coach will open the choke more. This has to be done on a cold
engine so the spring is fully wound up.. By adjusting we are talking rotating the housing a few degrees, or millimeters to get the butterfly plate
fully closed, or very near fully closed. again on a cold engine.

Hope this helps.

--
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan

[kelly stockwell]

Thanks all!

now i understand "stove" from the link of parts Bill added.

Ok, i'll do some reading and check it out again, maybe adding photos of what's going on at the passenger side. I don't think I want to change to an
electric choke, this one did work- thank you for the explanation.

cheers

[kelly stockwell]

apologies if my questions are tiring

I think the comment about the stove being rusted out; and therefore my adjustment is way off sounds likely

I took some more pictures. How much do I need to remove to get to the stove?
I assume the U shaped stove item at Applied GMC is under the stove tube to choke. The pipe above looks rusty but feels solid.
Is this something I can do myself or should I enlist professional help? My next trip is August 28th, around a 4 hour drive to Maine. My only issue
now is cold starting.

I'm still confused about how the choke plate should be moved by the other moving parts..
I took this video of me moving parts
https://youtu.be/mIWiPhpi1BQ

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

After watching, I wonder if the spring is properly connected. (I also wonder if that's the correct carb - have you checked the number stamped/cast on
the driver's side of the carb against the manual?)
Remove the three screws on the round black thing and pull it out - it is the temp spring which moved the choke plate. You should see in its housing a
metal tab which is connected directly to the choke plate: Moving the tab should move the plate without any slack or hesitation. There should be a
slot in the tab which ebngages the end of the spring to move the choke. If this is broken or not properly engaged, the choke will not work properly.
When it is properly engaged, rotating the spring holder should also move the choke in either direction. When it does, turn it until thye choke just
closes and then replace and tighten the three screws. You choke stove looks properl;y installed and should work. Your unloader diaphragm also
looks properly hooked.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[kelly stockwell]

Thank you Johnny, it also initially seemed to me like something was supposed to be connected but wasn't. Interesting comment on the right carb. I'll
try to look that up. the three screws on the round black thing are on the passenger side where the bimetal spring is (that's the spring people are
talking about not the visible spring?)

Just making sure i have the right parts in mind

kelly



Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 17 August 2017 09:15

> After watching, I wonder if the spring is properly connected. (I also wonder if that's the correct carb - have you checked the number
> stamped/cast on the driver's side of the carb against the manual?)
> Remove the three screws on the round black thing and pull it out - it is the temp spring which moved the choke plate. You should see in its
> housing a metal tab which is connected directly to the choke plate: Moving the tab should move the plate without any slack or hesitation. There
> should be a slot in the tab which ebngages the end of the spring to move the choke. If this is broken or not properly engaged, the choke will not
> work properly. When it is properly engaged, rotating the spring holder should also move the choke in either direction. When it does, turn it until
> thye choke just closes and then replace and tighten the three screws. You choke stove looks properl;y installed and should work. Your unloader
> diaphragm also looks properly hooked.
>
> --johnny


--

1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[James Hupy]

Kelly, pull your head out. It is not that complex. Under that plastic cover
with the 3 screws, is a flat wound spring with a square bend on the end. It
meshes with a piece of linkage connected to the choke plate internally in
the carb. That is why you could not detect any linkage. When the engine is
completely cold, loosen those three screws, (no need to remove them
completely), and rotate the plastic cover until you see the choke plate
move towards the closed position. If it opens, you are turning it the wrong
way. Turn towards the closed position until it just touches closed, then
tighten the screws. It is not a complicated adjustment. You can easily do
it. Your engine will thank you.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Jim Kanomata]

Kelly,
Should you be at the International Convention in Indiana next month, I can
grab a old carb and explain all the pats and how it works.
I was fortunate to have been playing with this style carbs from 1960 .

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[kelly stockwell]

I'll do this tonight!

thanks again all. I won't be at the convention, some year I hope to make it.

I've been so happy with my GMC, I'm a year+ in and can't help but smile when I drive it, and it is the best party bus you could want at one of our
festivals

I'll report back tonight what I find

-kelly

[kelly stockwell]

it was as easy as you all said! :d

I removed the three screws, pushed the pedal down, rotated it (a lot) until the plate closed, put the screws back (could have just loosened them), put
it back together and it started instantly!

How do I know i didn't turn it too far? I let it idle high for awhile then tapped the gas and the RPMS dropped

Thanks all! I realize this isn't rocket science and I appreciate your patience!

[James Hupy]

Kelly, look for signs of black smoke out the exhaust after the engine is at
operating temperature. And, the choke plate should be vertical. If black
smoke is what you see, make a very slight adjustment to the open direction,
and try again.
Good job by the way.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[kelly stockwell]

Just what I was looking for, something obvious.
I'll go start it again and wait

By the way, can I just reach in and remove whatever buzzes for the door alarm? it's annoying
Not sure this link works, it's a video of the GMC starting instantly
https://www.facebook.com/groups/classicgmcmotorhomes/#

thank you

[James Hupy]

The door buzzer can be defeated by pulling the ignition key out a little
bit. It is part of a necessary relay, but there is a replacement relay that
does not have the buzzer. Call Jim K. He will stock it.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[kelly stockwell]

It seemed like dark smoke, so I opened it up, the choke was still slightly closed. I rotated to open it started it again.

now white smoke. I can't remember if it smoked like this before. Course there's probably extra gas/etc in there. I should take it for a drive
(unfortunately getting in/out of the driveway is the worst part of any trip...)

White smoke is OK? Water?

[kelly stockwell]

Noise is from the fuse box, I shook it and it stopped. But yeah, I should get that. The plunger to tell me the door is open/closed is broken so it
randomly shows open. I should just remove the relay. Is it on the top of the fuse box or was I just lucky?



James Hupy wrote on Thu, 17 August 2017 19:25

> The door buzzer can be defeated by pulling the ignition key out a little
> bit. It is part of a necessary relay, but there is a replacement relay that
> does not have the buzzer. Call Jim K. He will stock it.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>

[kelly stockwell]

the nylon gasket that was in the carb filter is twisted and warped

no auto place has one (I did get two filters). Where do we get these? Can I put this one back in?

This is what the spring goes against.

[Charles Boyd]

I believe this is the gasket that seals the filter housing to carburetor. I got some at local NAPA.



kstockwell wrote on Sat, 19 August 2017 16:16

> the nylon gasket that was in the carb filter is twisted and warped
>
> no auto place has one (I did get two filters). Where do we get these? Can I put this one back in?
>
> This is what the spring goes against.


--

C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[kelly stockwell]

found them online for 35 cents each.

I ordered 10.

I put the original back in, no leaks that I can see/smell. Fingers crossed


-kelly

--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT

[kelly stockwell]

Just want you to know I laugh every time i reread my post and stop here in your note and add my own last words (you had a period) :)



[quote title=James Hupy wrote on Thu, 17 August 2017 11:26]Kelly, pull your head out

[James Hupy]

Kelly, 'twas all done in fun. I figured if you bought a GMC MOTORHOME, you
certainly must (like me and many others here) have a twisted sense of
humor. I meant you no disrespect, that was just a gentle prod meant to
encourage you to action. Now you know, through firsthand experience, that
setting the automatic choke is a fairly straightforward process. You can do
it. I have confidence in you.
Welcome to the wild, wacky, world of gmc's.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[kelly stockwell]

No offense taken at all! And since I was able to do that I went ahead and changed the carb filter.
Today I'm changing a steering wheel and cleaning the fridge burner.



[quote title=James Hupy wrote on Sun, 20 August 2017 10:00]Kelly, 'twas all done in fun. I figured if you bought a GMC MOTORHOME, you

certainly must (like me and many others here) have a twisted sense of
humor. I meant you no disrespect, that was just a gentle prod meant to
encourage you to action. Now you know, through firsthand experience, that
setting the automatic choke is a fairly straightforward process. You can do
it. I have confidence in you.
Welcome to the wild, wacky, world of gmc's.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Aug 20, 2017 6:06 AM, "kelly stockwell" wrote:

> Just want you to know I laugh every time i reread my post and stop here in
> your note and add my own last words (you had a period) :)
>
>
>