[GMCnet] Electrical demands?

[Mike]

Hello again,

I'm wanting to understand the electrical capabilities of our coaches, specifically mine. Has anybody ever compiled a list of appliances etc and their
electrical demands?

I believe my coach (75 Royale) was wired from the builder - Coachmen with a 30 amp main line for shore power, at least this is what it currently has.

I have a 5100 series transfer relay by Progressive Dynamics along with the breaker panel. I'd like to know what this set-up is capable of as well as
limitations?

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/my-75-royale/p61688-electronics-1.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/my-75-royale/p61689-electronics-2.html

As always your feedback is appreciated,
Mike

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[Peer Oliver Schmidt GMC]

Mike,

check the recent thread "Leftover from the alternator". Lots of good
information in there.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

'76a Eleganza II, VA

[gene Fisher]

Here is an old list
http://gmcmotorhome.info/chassis.html#Isolator

[Mike]

Thanks for the suggestion Peer.

Mr ERFisher, this is what I'm looking for, thank-you. Lots of good information here.

Anyone care to offer an opinion regarding the Progressive Dynamics system I have? This came with my coach, I know very little about it. I have read
over the information regards to installation and trouble shooting from the PD website and not having electrical knowledge of this type of equipment
it's a bit over my head, anything I should be aware of good or bad regarding this set-up?

Regards,

[Ken Burton]

Aren't you guys talking Apples and Oranges here?

I believe he is asking about 120VAC stuff and you are replying about 12VDC stuff.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Bruce Hislop]

Mike,
It looks like a nice setup. The transfer switch will select generator or shore power automatically. The transfer switch is rated at 30 Amps which is
what your shore power cord is rated for. The AC power distribution also has a 30 amp main breaker.

The voltage converter/charger is built into the A/C - D/C power distribution panel. It appears to be a 45Amp @ 12V DC converter which should do
nicely.

The only issue I see with this setup is with the power converter being built into the distribution panel. If the power converter fails, the only power
converter replacement will likely be another Progressive Dynamics OEM converter. So it if fails and you cannot easily get a replacement, a different
type of converter may not easily connect to the panel.


--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Matt Colie]

Mike,

As your coach left the assembly barn, it was set up as 30Amp 120Volt. Unless someone installed a complex and expensive power management system, you
will have to use neurons to keep the AC power in line.

What you need to do is one of two things, either:
Get a look at the manufacturer's on -
Get a device called a Kill-A-Watt and measure the power consumption of -
...each and everything in the coach and then decide what you can have on line at any given time.
There are some gotchas in here.
The water heater is at the top of this list. That thing is largely autonomous and can flip on at any time when it is powered. It is best to know how
to shut it down when things are close.
The converter can be, but it should not. You have a 60amp Converter/Charger? The most mine ever pulls on the line is about 7 Amps of AC, and that is
not for very long.

This is called energy management. It is simple if you can use neurons, but if not then you have to plan on spending money or having the power shut
down.

This is why GM elected to make all its coaches 50amp. In complete honesty, I was part of the RV world at that time and the discussion was that all RV
parks would soon be either real 50amp or a thing that they called Twin-30. Fortunately, the dangers and pitfalls of the Twin-30 plan were soon seen
and it has disappeared. The unfortunate thing is that this short side trip made many drop any plans of upgrade.

As we don't know what your coach came with and what has been changed in the last 40 years, you are kind of stuck doing this your self.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[John Wright]

Mike,
I am also with Bruce with the issue of an integrated power panel with an internal 12VDC power converter. There are power distribution panels that have a 120VAC CB on one side and as DCV fuses or DC circuit breakers on the other side. I found one a Bontrager's in there surplus electrical section. I will go out to the Avion and look at the box and see if it has a manufacture or part number on the box.

It is similar to this item:

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-AMP-Distribution-Panel-for-RVs/302119137817?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D39107%26meid%3D3e79808b23d943f39b34e6ef2473f512%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D152231344638>
or
http://tinyurl.com/hleto6c

If the internal power converter ever fails then your screwed. You would have to take it apart and remove the damage internal unit and wire it for an external unit.

JWIWD your experience may vary.

JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

[John R. Lebetski]

Keep in mind the GM 14-50 NEMA system is really 100A available as there are 2 120V legs coming in at 50A (technically dual 40A main in most GMC
panels). Therefore 50A is not 20A more than Coachmen 30A (simple math) but instead has 70A more available on the cord set. Even if the GMC Main
breaker is a dual 40A, 80-30= 50A more than Coachmen TT-30 setup. Hence the big disparity and realization that the GMC 14-50 is more than you could
ever need. Glad they went with it as you can easily addapt it to TT-30 at an old camp and then to Edison if need be.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Thomas Phipps]

Recommend putting a on-off switch in the hot water line. Turn it on about half hour before anticipating need. Progressive Dynamics is a known good
brand, nothing to fear here.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion
KA4CSG

[Mike]

tphipps... Thanks for the tip, I believe my water heater has a ON/OFF switch, it was located at the side of the sink counter. I'm sure it says
ATWOOD.

Matt... Thanks for your input as well, as mentioned above I disconnected a switch during the removal of the counter, I do believe it is a switch for
the water heater.

Bruce & John... If I understand correctly my PD set-up has a built in converter / charger, it's a decent set-up with a possible downside. If the
converter fails I'll likely require another PD converter, if a replacement exists I'm OK, if not, chances of finding a replacement that fits into this
box are slim?

If this is correct should I, A) purchase a spare just in case, B) consider, if it's possible, integrating another converter / charger or C) something
else?

This is all very new to me so bear with me if my questions are redundant.

How does an inverter fit into this, if at all?

BTW, Bruce I see you are in S. Ontario, are you near Niagara?

Have a great weekend,
Regards,

[Bruce Hislop]

Mike,

I would not worry over it, its just a downside of having an all-in-one solution. You may go years without an issue.

As for the inverter, my opinion is they are for specific devices, like a TV. Using an inverter for large loads like a microwave or coffee make draw
way too much current. Use your generator for that.

I'm near London ON.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Mike]

RF_Burns wrote on Fri, 18 November 2016 22:43

> Mike,
>
> I would not worry over it, its just a downside of having an all-in-one solution. You may go years without an issue.
>
> As for the inverter, my opinion is they are for specific devices, like a TV. Using an inverter for large loads like a microwave or coffee make
> draw way too much current. Use your generator for that.
>
> I'm near London ON.

Thanks Bruce, let me know if you are ever visiting Niagara or simply passing through?

I would like to take advantage of the in-motion satellite system so I'm planning on installing 2 TV's,(there were 2 TV's in the coach), I'm thinking
of a Bose Lifestyle DVD - sound system as well. Does this sound like a good case for a inverter?

If so what would you recommend?

Regards,
Mike

[Matt Colie]

GMC Jimmy wrote on Fri, 18 November 2016 21:11
> <snip>

> Bruce & John... If I understand correctly my PD set-up has a built in converter / charger, it's a decent set-up with a possible downside. If the
> converter fails I'll likely require another PD converter, if a replacement exists I'm OK, if not, chances of finding a replacement that fits into
> this box are slim?
>
> If this is correct should I, A) purchase a spare just in case, B) consider, if it's possible, integrating another converter / charger or C)
> something else?
>

> This is all very new to me so bear with me if my questions are redundant. <Nobody Minds>

>
> How does an inverter fit into this, if at all?

> <snip>

> Have a great weekend,
> Regards,
> Mike

Mike,

The panel you bought has a PD4045 in it. All of PD stuff is proving to be both good and reliable. If it is going to fail out of warranty it will
probably be 10 or more years and if PD is still in business (one never knows these days) they will have a pop-in replacement (just like they sell for
other company's panels) available.

As to inverters, they vary in price and capability widely.
When you have the component list for the entertainment complete, see what of it you can get that is already DC friendly. (Some devices come with a
power brick that supplies it with ~12V DC. Then scurry around the web and try to find out if any single component has been reported to have a problem
with a modified square wave for power. If you find none, try using a MSW first as they are CHEAP. Do not buy too much more than your maximum
expected load as it will be a waste. I do like pure sine wave inverters better, but they are a lot more expensive. You may have no choice.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Mike]

Thanks Matt, my plan is to install the entertainment components that are currently used for home applications, I'm not certain if the flat screen TV's
or the Bose system are 12 volt friendly, but I will check into this.

Appreciate your input,
Regards,

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

My 26' coach had two TVs permanently installed - one R CA and one Neve. The Neve dies to PCS, I replaced it with a small Seiki. All of them had
external 12 volt wall warts. They're no powered off the house 12 volt supply and work well.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[Bruce Hislop]

Mike,
I don't have any experience with the moving satellite dishes. When we are out with the Murray we are trying to escape everything. We have a 18" flat
screen which I think was used for less than 30 minutes total this past year.

I can tell you that most modern electronic devices use switching power wide voltage power supplies. Most don't care about line frequency or shape as
long as its between ~90 to ~260 volts. Look on the label for the voltage range. They will take modified sine wave just fine.

Devices that use a transformer power supply or devices with motors (like my all electric fridge) only like sine wave power.

Look up the specs on all the devices you plan to install. Add up the devices power requirements ( in watts) to see how much power you will need from
the inverter. All devices have an in-rush current that is much higher when first plugged in, for that reason I suggest doubling the total watts to
select your power inverter. So if your total power is say 300 watts, I would get a 600 watt inverter. If you go way oversize, the larger inverter
will be consuming more standby current.

You should also be aware of the battery size and run time. For 300 watt load @ 12 volts that's 300/12 = 25 amps. The inverter is not 100% efficient,
most are 80-90% so lets pick 80% so the inverter will consume 31 amps. Most people use two 6 volt golf cart batteries which are just over 200amp/hrs,
so lets use 200 amp/hrs. With a lead-acid battery the lower the discharge level the shorter the overall battery life. You should not discharge it
below 50% so that means you have 100Amp Hrs. But the 200Amp/hr rating is at 5C rate (20hrs @10 amps). At 25amps you may have only 150Amp/hrs of
capacity so at 50% that leaves 75Amp/hrs.

So 75Amp/hrs divided by a 31 amp load = 2.4 hours of use. In the real world it will likely be closer to 2 hours. To be really kind to the battery you
should not charge it fast than 5C (20 hours to recharge), but in the real world you can put that charge back in the battery in about 6 hours. You can
charge it faster, but battery life is again reduced.

If you are driving down the road, the engine alternator should keep up with this, although you may want to have it tested and look into installing a
larger engine alternator.

If you are going to use this coach as a stationary party, you may want to look a small generator that is quiet and can handle this small load. It
will not however handle an air-conditioner.

I have an all electric fridge so I am considering go to LiFePO battery. These batteries can be discharged to 80% without harm and can be recharged
much faster. They also weight much less. Progressive Dynamics are now advertising a LiFePO converter charger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Just some thoughts.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Mike]

Excellent thoughts Bruce and interesting battery technology. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself here as I'm still in the early stages of my
interior deconstruction, however, now would be the time to prepare for future needs.

I'll need to do some research on inverters in the meantime.

Regards,

[Peer Oliver Schmidt GMC]

Mike,

> I'll need to do some research on inverters in the meantime.

I have my eyes set on the Vicron Multiplus Charger/Inverter - looks very
interesting.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

'76a Eleganza II, VA

[Mike]

Hello Peer, thanks for this suggestion. While investigating this I did read the blog by Justin "rv electrical systems",
http://www.thegmcrv.com/project/rv-electrical-systems-yup-this-will-be-a-long-one

It's quite informative and he uses a Vicron system BMV700, definitely something to consider.

Regards,

[Peer Oliver Schmidt]

Mike,

> Hello Peer, thanks for this suggestion.

glad you like it

> While investigating this I did read the blog by Justin "rv electrical systems",
> http://www.thegmcrv.com/project/rv-electrical-systems-yup-this-will-be-a-long-one
>
> It's quite informative and he uses a Vicron system BMV700, definitely something to consider.

Yes, I wanted something a bit different, and I like the fact (especially
for the EU with their low amperage camp grounds), that you can join the
grid power and the battery power together.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt

the internet company
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

[Dolph Santorine]

I believe you can also set it up to take 230V 40-65 Hz or so input and output 110V / 60 Hz


Dolph

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

My 23' had the (in my opinion) best solution to the '30 amps might not be sufficient' conundrum. Beside the breaker box was a toggle switch. Water
heater up, air conditioner down. Never blew the pole breaker with it. No thought required. First morning out, there's still enough hot water for
the dishes. For supper, swap to the water heater for half an hour, then back to the A/c, samesame in the morning.
I cured this when the 40 y/o switches began to disintegrate by putting in the 7500Watt heathen chinee genset and wiring the coach panel for 50 amps
120 or 220 depending on the outlet it's plugged into. It has an 'either or' breaker to select genset or shore power in lieu of the original
(marginal) 30 amp toggle.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[James Hupy]

The late Royale upfits (77 - 78) had the best of most worlds. Lightweight
power cord that stores easily, propane powered hot water heater with engine
coolant heat exchanger, 6000 watt generator, 30 amp breakers, usually only
a single roof A.C. a toggle type circuit breaker that cannot be switched
wrong. Because I converted my gaucho bunks to a crossways queen bed, I
installed a 50 amp automatic transfer switch that eliminates the toggle
breaker. When you start the generator, it automatically switches after a 30
second delay to allow the Genet to warm up and stabilize voltage. Works for
me very well.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Nov 20, 2016 8:26 AM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <