7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
Gerald Wheeler
Bruce Hislop, Perth Communications
When you add the EBL to the 7747 it is a completely changed controller.
Add EFI is nice but upgrading to spark control (ESC) makes your engine come to life! For ESC to operate properly you need a Knock sensor.
VSS allow you take advantage of other EBL goodies like Lean Cruise and Decelerate fuel cutoff.
Again a 7747 with an EBL is no longer a simple 7747.
Its like swapping a new motherboard into an old computer case. Its not the same beast.
Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
br...@perthcomm.com
Sent from my Blackberry Curve
Ken Henderson
Troy's attitude toward electronic ignition makes me wonder whether
he's ever tried it on the Olds engine. Ever since we've had this
group running (before I implemented electronic ignition on my Howell)
everyone with EI has consistently praised it and often gone so far as
to proclaim that to be more important than the fuel control. I'm not
that adamant, but I do consider it a BIG improvement, and have largely
lost faith in Howell because of their opposition to it.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Bruce Hislop, Perth Communications
> The EBL basically replaces the "smarts" board in the 7747 and only uses the
> main circuit board for the Input buffering and conditioning and the output
> drivers as well as the actual connectors to the wiring harness.
> When you add the EBL to the 7747 it is a completely changed controller.
>...
> ________________________________
> From: "Gerald Wheeler"
> Sender: gmcm...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:55:31 -0500
> To: <gmcm...@googlegroups.com>
> ReplyTo: gmcm...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [GMCMH-EFI] 7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
> I just got off the phone with Troy at Howell. I was about to order the
> ESC, knock sensor and VSS from Howell so I could install the CCD on my
> 403. Troy said the 403 and 455 didn't need the ESC and knock sensor and
> even if I had it hooked up, he doubted it would make any difference,
> especially with the 7747...
Emery Stora
On Jan 14, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Gerald Wheeler wrote:
> I just got off the phone with Troy at Howell. I was about to order the ESC, knock sensor and VSS from Howell so I could install the CCD on my 403. Troy said the 403 and 455 didn't need the ESC and knock sensor and even if I had it hooked up, he doubted it would make any difference, especially with the 7747. He said the 8747 would use the ESC and knock sensor. Does the EBL convert the 7747 to act like an 8747?? Do I really need the ESC and the knock sensor to run with the EBL?? Do I lose functionality with the EBL if I don't have the ESC and knock sensor?? I'm confused about what I need for a nice running 403 with CCD. Any opinions or advice??
>
> JR Wheeler NC/OR
>
>
I added the spark controlled distributor to the Howell system two or three years before I added the EBL. I have a 7747 and the ESC and knock sensor worked very well with my ECM.
After I added the EBL I installed a VSS in order to be able to use the lean burn function.
I have never agreed with Troy on this subject. I have also been disturbed about Troy and Howell not knowing that the fuel injectors that they substituted for their system were no longer 80 or 85 pound per hour at 13 psi, but rather 55 pph.. Holley were the ones that told me that I would have to increase the fuel pressure to 18 or 19 psi get 85 ppg capacity from the injectors.
I know Troy and he has even ridden in my GMC a few years back while taking measurements in order to try to get it performing properly. This was before I put on the ESC and knock sensor and spark controlled distributor.
Troy feels that the burst mode for spark retard is all that is needed but those of us that have put on the spark controlled distributor have found it gave much better performance. I have a 455 but think that the 403 would be about the same. Ask Randy for his opinion as he runs the 403.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
Dick Paterson
----- Original Message -----From: Gerald WheelerSent: Friday, January 14, 2011 2:55 PMSubject: [GMCMH-EFI] 7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
George Beckman
Do I really need the ESC and the knock sensor to run with the EBL?? Do I lose functionality with the EBL if I don't have the ESC and knock sensor?? I'm confused about what I need for a nice running 403 with CCD.
Randy Van Winkle
The 7747 supports the knock sensor and ESC. I'm not sure of Troy's
understanding of the CCD functionality of the 7747. It is true that it
supports the burst mode for spark retard but it also has full
functionality for receiving the KS and ESC input then acting on it
accordingly. I don't believe there is much difference between the 8747
and 7747. The 8747 was not used in many vehicles. The difference, I
believe, was in the fuel tables - not as big VE tables with everything
else being basically the same.
It is not a requirement to have the ESC and KS to run with the EBL but
you will, in my opinion, be giving up some performance. If you have the
Howell system then in order to add CCD, you need the distributor, an ESC
and a Knock Sensor. A VSS will help because it will allow for
Deceleration Fuel Cut Off (DFCO) both for the original 7747 and for the
EBL - the EBL also gives you lean cruise if you have the VSS - well
worth it in my opinion. The EBL enhances the tables for Spark Control
which helps in getting a better tune and getting the table set up for
max power while avoiding areas where knocks might occur. With the
system tuned properly, then the KS and ESC is really there to provide a
safety margin. A well tuned spark table will not ping, however, changes
in fuel, heat, etc. can cause pinging that you are not expecting - the
KS and ESC will auto retard perhaps saving your engine.
I have the 403 and initially installed the Howell system for fuel
management - my first response on the initial test drive was Wow!
Later, I added CCD with KS and ESC and, again, on my first test drive -
Wow! I ran this way for several thousand miles and never had a
problem. Added the EBL, and now I had all the tools I needed to do more
tuning. Now, I'm getting better mileage and performance is great.
BTW... when I say better mileage - it is not 15 mpg but for my rig is
doing great! My 403 ran great on the 7747. Many have installed the EBL
on their 455s and found it solved some nagging problems that were
experienced with the Howell system.
Bottom line, I think anyone going the Howell route should upgrade to a
CCD with KS and ESC and also to the EBL. From that point on, you won't
have to touch the system unless you like to "play" with this type of stuff.
Randy (likes the performance, startup, shutdown, altitude compensation,
spark control, responsiveness, etc., etc. with the EBL)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
Gerald Wheeler
Randy, George, Emery, Bruce and Ken,
Thanks for your input. I trust your opinions and the fact that you are
running the Howell system with the EBL, VSS, CCD, ESC and knock sensor. I
will be ordering the various components early next week. George, I will
probably be in your area somewhere near the 3rd week of February; I'll have
a better handle on times when I finally get to the west coast; looking
forward to getting this setup installed and working. Then onto AZ for
some visiting before heading east to FL and eventually back home to NC.
JR Wheeler NC/OR
Gordon
Dick Paterson
----- Original Message -----From: Gordon
Ken Henderson
Gerald Wheeler
----- Original Message -----From: Dick PatersonSent: 1/14/2011 10:07:08 PMSubject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] 7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
Gordon -I thought Gerry directed that message to me that -I guess it was directed at the FI group members and I didnt catch it---sorry I dont mean to offend anyone -and I certainly dont deny the value of FI and all the work you all have done.regards --dick (Richard) who should not be tinkering with posting-and making wise cracks.
----- Original Message -----
Gordon
To be very clear, my reference of a guy with his head in the sand is directly to Troy, NOT DICK. Troy should know better and quit leading people astray with crap that does not work 100% of the time. An EBL is a quantum improvement to any ECM. The more sensors you add the more info the ECM has and the better informed decisions it makes. Confusing statements that sensors are not needed, with the fact that sensors improve the system, are very anal. I feel very sorry for people who have spend days troubleshooting, drive to Howell and spend $$$ and more days, fooling with fuel pressure, harness and timing, when the answer is now so clear to all who will listen.
Perhaps it is time to put a header on every gmcmh-efi message; "Use a 2" throttle body with 80pph injectors, 7747 with an EBL, an ESC with knock sensor TO START!" Isn't that what a new EFI convert is told after the first 5 or so message?
After the 100's of posts, that is what I think I remember.
As far as the military latrines and showers go, the Chinese figured it out a long time ago and continue the practice of "who cares"? As long as Mr. Who get to collect the deposit for the garden, all is well.
Ken Henderson
Ken;
To be very clear, my reference of a guy with his head in the sand is directly to Troy, NOT DICK...
... As long as Mr. Who get to collect the deposit for the garden, all is well.
Mr.erf ERFisher
I like the EBL, (own it, but, will not use it ) but I am a tech-ie and know what is involved, and I love the technology.
there are a lot of us out here that are doing just fine with out the cost and effort of EBL, ESC, dist. harness mods, computer driving, etc.
Howell , or anyone , cannot sell a system that has about 40 tweaks, if you know how. better to stay with the quadra jet.
My 2 systems are old Howell, and I raised the pressure (one little allen wrench adjustment ) at the very beginning, and all is ok for now.
Troy is in business, and Emery's complaints are valid about them not wanting to go there. They want to sell something that can use standard parts and be bolt-on.
there are 6 or 7 ways to go here, (even plug in a CAD 500 with a carburetor). but to say this is the only way, is just not right.
There are only 4 guys here who know how to install and tweek the EBL system, and I would go to their garage if I wanted to install mine ;>)
so, I suggest someone should offer a bolt-on kit with the TBI, EBL, ESC, harnass, basic bin, etc, so AVERAGE JOE, could bolt this on to his GMC. this way, users would know the cost and could just bolt it on.
this is an alternative to flaming a current vendor.
JWID
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and -------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
George Beckman
The 7747 supports the knock sensor and ESC. It is true that it supports the burst mode for spark retard but it also has full functionality for receiving the KS and ESC input then acting on it accordingly.
Gordon
What I have suggested is a very basic "plug and play" set of components for a GMC EFI conversion. One that does not require any tweaks or tuning whatsoever. It also has the ability to learn as it goes and can benefit from any additional sensor input you want to feed it. It is simple enough to use, yet has the ability to benefit from tiny improvements.
The system I am building is quite different and once again demonstrates the incredible power of the EBL. I am using a FORD V8 coil pack (4 separate dual coils) , with a 36 toothed motorcycle sprocket on the vibration damper. NO DISTRIBUTOR at all. I am not recommending this to anyone, just doing it for the heck of it.
To characterize the EBL as something only a few can benefit from because only a few totally understand how it works, is nonsense. To think that only 3 or 4 people can install one is equally puzzling? It requires no more knowledge to use than one needs to know about the computer they are sending emails with. PLUG IT IN, TURN IT ON AND GO.
To further suggest that a stock 7747 is every bit as functional as one equipped with an EBL, is to not have a basic understanding of how it works. Ask anyone who has been burning chips, trying to make a stock GM EFI run well for the last 5 years, what they think of an EBL.
I see nothing sacred in continuing to mislead people to spend their money on antique systems of lesser design. I got my first education on GMC EFI at Santa Rosa and luckily decided to sit back and wait until a totally reliable system showed up. I saw the people who had given up on the other system and gone back to a carb and one who was so upset he sold his coach. I have been burning chips for other applications since 1996, and even entertained the thought of trying to make the perfect GMC solution. With all the variables, there is only one way to do this. No "one chip fits all", is possible, but by having a system that learns in it's specific environment, an EBL does FIT ALL. It will do this with just the basic inputs, but the more inputs it has the better decisions it can make and the better your engine will run.
Gordon
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3380 - Release Date: 01/14/11
Gordon
I have one tiny concern with all of the wonderfully detailed, specific information you and others are posting. I love it, but wonder if this scares some people away from EFI? They might think it is absolutely essential to have this deep understanding, in order to have a fully functional EFI. I know this is not your intention and all of your detailed posts are very valuable to all. When you were using hard burned chips, this understanding was absolutely necessary to obtain even acceptable performance from some difficult to setup engines. Now, as you note, the ECM and the EBL (with ESC and knock sensor) take care of science project part that EFI tuning used to be.
It is true "Plug and Play" not the MicroSoft Plug and play around for the rest of your life trying to get a useful output. I am glad you continue to play and those of us who have the time and inclination, can make tiny improvements from the knowledge you share.
Thanks;
Gordon
Emery Stora
George Beckman
I have one tiny concern with all of the wonderfully detailed, specific information you and others are posting. I love it, but wonder if this scares some people away from EFI? They might think it is absolutely essential to have this deep understanding, in order to have a fully functional EFI. I know this is not your intention and all of your detailed posts are very valuable to all. When you were using hard burned chips, this understanding was absolutely necessary to obtain even acceptable performance from some difficult to setup engines. Now, as you note, the ECM and the EBL (with ESC and knock sensor) take care of science project part that EFI tuning used to be
Jay Rabe
I've been lurking on this list for about a year since getting my PB w/ Howell and asked the GMCnet about a stumble problem.
To begin with it was indeed intimidating. Interesting though, that these last few threads have started to make some sense. For the last year I've been collecting posts that seemed to have bits and pieces of relevant info regarding configurations and connections, and after a year, rereading them, they are starting to come together in my mind. Problem is that the many discussions about the details of tables and curves don't do much for me when I have such a poor understanding of the overall picture.
Some time ago I researched the EBL and have it on my list todo, and now it looks like I should add the ESC and CCD and VSS and knock sensor.
So to this thread: details aren't inherently scary. What's scary is not having a global picture of what's going on, what's connected to what, to put the details into context.
What I need is an idiot's guide. Recent one-liner (apologies don't remember from who, but THANK YOU whoever you are for the succinct clarity!): "Use a 2" throttle body with 80pph injectors, 7747 with an EBL, an ESC with knock sensor TO START!"
For one thing though, it seems as if there are at least a few options on how to put things together "to start" ie initial configuration if you're going to do this piecemeal. First option would be just the ECM out of the box, no bells & whistles or sensors. Consensus seems to be that will work and have benefits over a carb, but is really not taking advantage of all the possibilities. Then there's the option quoted above, then there's Randy's: start w/ ECM and add CCD, which requires ESC, which requires KS. Next step then would be add the EBL, then VSS. (Do correct me if any of this is wrong.)
So then the idiot's guide also needs to have PN and source info. I've found at least one source for everything except I have no clue about the CCD. I thought it was a Dick Paterson Springfield Ignition, but I didn't see anything on their site that was clearly a "CCD for EFI."
Here's the things I'm still confused about:
1) Source and PN for CCD as mentioned. Is it a Paterson thing and just not listed on his website?
2) Not sure what ROM/EPROM (whatever they are) I have. I found a hand-written note in some paperwork from PO that said "7747," and I understand that's the correct #, just don't know if that note meant that's what I've got or if that was the PO's note of what to get. Presume I have to take the ECM apart and look at the label on the chip to confirm.
3) Don't know what ppm my injectors are, or how to find out. But I do know from PO's service reports that they had to set up FP to 19-20psi to make it run, so suspect I do NOT have the 80's. So does this mean I am OK just compensating by running the higher FP? Or should I think about replacing with the correct 80ppm injectors?
4) Not sure about the wide/narrow band sensor thing. It's called an "air/fuel" sensor, but is that the same, ie does it replace, the "O2 sensor?" (Did I mention I'm not a mechanic? Pretty good with electronics, but very very limited mechanics experience.) I've seen the Zeitronix site and seems like consensus is the ZT-3 is sufficient for our engines.
5) I've seen 3 references for which KS to get: 2 options from Howell (MA209 & SD208), and a generic sensor for "1990 454 1-ton pickup." Don't know what's best, what's tradeoffs, etc.
6) I've seen 3 references for which VSS to get: 1 from Howell (VSS263), one from JAG (found website, didn't dig deep enough to find VSS PN), and one ref to "Ray Swartzenduber" (no clue how to contact him or PN).
7) Saw the "EBL Flash Switcher" on DynamicEFI website. Is that a need-to-have, a nice-to-have, or not-relevant/overkill?
8) Saw reference to "IAT sensor" and "Ostrich emulator" needed for EBL. I'm clueless.
How's THAT for a laundry list???
:-)
J "still majorly confused amidst glimmers of understanding" Rabe76 PBPortland, OR
________________________________> From: gbec...@pggp.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] 7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
> To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com
Gordon
For your easiest installation the consensus is to start with a 7747 that
is already equipped with an EBL. Save your Howell stumbler as a
comehome box. Dynamic has them and most people who do not want a
soldering project have purchased the complete unit, not just added the
EBL to their own 7747. If you have a source of cheap or free ECM's,
there is a huge list to choose from which work equally as well as the
7747. Getting one and sending it to RBob at Dynamic is can save you a
few dollars. You will find the list 1/2 way down this page;
http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Flash.php
CAUTION; If you choose other than a 7747 you may require pin changes
which will foul you up if you have to switch back to the stock 7747 you
have kept as a spare.
I think the only reason most GMCers have a 7747 is because this is what
Howell and most other backyard guys started with? You might find it a
valuable experience to read everything on the DYNAMIC site;
http://www.dynamicefi.com/ under information, tuning, etc.
You can simply swap your current ECM for one from Dynamic and DO NOTHING
ELSE. Then if you wish, add one feature at a time and keep adding until
you are tired or totally happy.
Gordon
On 1/15/2011 3:33 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
> I've been lurking on this list for about a year since getting my PB w/ Howell and asked the GMCnet about a stumble problem.
> To begin with it was indeed intimidating. Interesting though, that these last few threads have started to make some sense. For the last year I've been collecting posts that seemed to have bits and pieces of relevant info regarding configurations and connections, and after a year, rereading them, they are starting to come together in my mind. Problem is that the many discussions about the details of tables and curves don't do much for me when I have such a poor understanding of the overall picture.
> Some time ago I researched the EBL and have it on my list todo, and now it looks like I should add the ESC and CCD and VSS and knock sensor.
> So to this thread: details aren't inherently scary. What's scary is not having a global picture of what's going on, what's connected to what, to put the details into context.
> What I need is an idiot's guide. Recent one-liner (apologies don't remember from who, but THANK YOU whoever you are for the succinct clarity!): "Use a 2" throttle body with 80pph injectors, 7747 with an EBL, an ESC with knock sensor TO START!"
> For one thing though, it seems as if there are at least a few options on how to put things together "to start" ie initial configuration if you're going to do this piecemeal. First option would be just the ECM out of the box, no bells& whistles or sensors. Consensus seems to be that will work and have benefits over a carb, but is really not taking advantage of all the possibilities. Then there's the option quoted above, then there's Randy's: start w/ ECM and add CCD, which requires ESC, which requires KS. Next step then would be add the EBL, then VSS. (Do correct me if any of this is wrong.)
> So then the idiot's guide also needs to have PN and source info. I've found at least one source for everything except I have no clue about the CCD. I thought it was a Dick Paterson Springfield Ignition, but I didn't see anything on their site that was clearly a "CCD for EFI."
> Here's the things I'm still confused about:
> 1) Source and PN for CCD as mentioned. Is it a Paterson thing and just not listed on his website?
> 2) Not sure what ROM/EPROM (whatever they are) I have. I found a hand-written note in some paperwork from PO that said "7747," and I understand that's the correct #, just don't know if that note meant that's what I've got or if that was the PO's note of what to get. Presume I have to take the ECM apart and look at the label on the chip to confirm.
> 3) Don't know what ppm my injectors are, or how to find out. But I do know from PO's service reports that they had to set up FP to 19-20psi to make it run, so suspect I do NOT have the 80's. So does this mean I am OK just compensating by running the higher FP? Or should I think about replacing with the correct 80ppm injectors?
> 4) Not sure about the wide/narrow band sensor thing. It's called an "air/fuel" sensor, but is that the same, ie does it replace, the "O2 sensor?" (Did I mention I'm not a mechanic? Pretty good with electronics, but very very limited mechanics experience.) I've seen the Zeitronix site and seems like consensus is the ZT-3 is sufficient for our engines.
> 5) I've seen 3 references for which KS to get: 2 options from Howell (MA209& SD208), and a generic sensor for "1990 454 1-ton pickup." Don't know what's best, what's tradeoffs, etc.
Jay Rabe
Hi Gordon,
Never thought about that as an option. Will study the Dynamic site some more and may get back with more questions.
Every time I learn something I find out how much more I have to learn.
:-)
Thanks,
J 76 PBPortland, OR
----------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:47:29 -0800
> From: wiz...@telus.net
> To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com
Randy Van Winkle
Will try to sort through some of this for you. We use to have a place where we could post all of the generic stuff on pages and files but Google has taken that option away from us.
See below in blue for my thoughts:
Randy (agrees that we tend to make all this sound more complicated than it is)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
On 1/15/2011 5:33 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
I've been lurking on this list for about a year since getting my PB w/ Howell and asked the GMCnet about a stumble problem. To begin with it was indeed intimidating. Interesting though, that these last few threads have started to make some sense. For the last year I've been collecting posts that seemed to have bits and pieces of relevant info regarding configurations and connections, and after a year, rereading them, they are starting to come together in my mind.
Problem is that the many discussions about the details of tables and curves don't do much for me when I have such a poor understanding of the overall picture.
Some time ago I researched the EBL and have it on my list todo, and now it looks like I should add the ESC and CCD and VSS and knock sensor. So to this thread: details aren't inherently scary. What's scary is not having a global picture of what's going on, what's connected to what, to put the details into context. What I need is an idiot's guide. Recent one-liner (apologies don't remember from who, but THANK YOU whoever you are for the succinct clarity!): "Use a 2" throttle body with 80pph injectors, 7747 with an EBL, an ESC with knock sensor TO START!" For one thing though, it seems as if there are at least a few options on how to put things together "to start" ie initial configuration if you're going to do this piecemeal. First option would be just the ECM out of the box, no bells & whistles or sensors. Consensus seems to be that will work and have benefits over a carb, but is really not taking advantage of all the possibilities.
Then there's the option quoted above, then there's Randy's: start w/ ECM and add CCD, which requires ESC, which requires KS. Next step then would be add the EBL, then VSS. (Do correct me if any of this is wrong.)
So then the idiot's guide also needs to have PN and source info. I've found at least one source for everything except I have no clue about the CCD. I thought it was a Dick Paterson Springfield Ignition, but I didn't see anything on their site that was clearly a "CCD for EFI." Here's the things I'm still confused about: 1) Source and PN for CCD as mentioned. Is it a Paterson thing and just not listed on his website?
Cardone still sells rebuilt distributors for about $120.00 more or less (look up the vehicles in the above list).
Dick Paterson is now selling CCD distributors ready to go. I say ready to go because the junk yard ones and the rebuilt probably will not have the correct polarity. Pickup coil needs to be changed but that is not too difficult.
If going to the CCD, you will also need a Knock Sensor and an ESC module.
Dick just started with the CCD so may not be on his web-site yet - would need to call him.
2) Not sure what ROM/EPROM (whatever they are) I have. I found a hand-written note in some paperwork from PO that said "7747," and I understand that's the correct #, just don't know if that note meant that's what I've got or if that was the PO's note of what to get. Presume I have to take the ECM apart and look at the label on the chip to confirm.
3) Don't know what ppm my injectors are, or how to find out. But I do know from PO's service reports that they had to set up FP to 19-20psi to make it run, so suspect I do NOT have the 80's. So does this mean I am OK just compensating by running the higher FP? Or should I think about replacing with the correct 80ppm injectors?
4) Not sure about the wide/narrow band sensor thing. It's called an "air/fuel" sensor, but is that the same, ie does it replace, the "O2 sensor?" (Did I mention I'm not a mechanic? Pretty good with electronics, but very very limited mechanics experience.) I've seen the Zeitronix site and seems like consensus is the ZT-3 is sufficient for our engines.
5) I've seen 3 references for which KS to get: 2 options from Howell (MA209 & SD208), and a generic sensor for "1990 454 1-ton pickup." Don't know what's best, what's tradeoffs, etc.
6) I've seen 3 references for which VSS to get: 1 from Howell (VSS263), one from JAG (found website, didn't dig deep enough to find VSS PN), and one ref to "Ray Swartzenduber" (no clue how to contact him or PN).
7) Saw the "EBL Flash Switcher" on DynamicEFI website. Is that a need-to-have, a nice-to-have, or not-relevant/overkill?
8) Saw reference to "IAT sensor" and "Ostrich emulator" needed for EBL. I'm clueless.
How's THAT for a laundry list??? :-) J "still majorly confused amidst glimmers of understanding"
Randy Van Winkle
I forgot to add this to my rather long reply. Yes, get a complete EBL
already installed on a 7747 ECM then it is just unplug the Howell ECM
and plug in the EBL, load the default 455 bin (or get one from one of us
here on the forum) and you are ready to go. Plus, you have the Howell
ECM as a backup than can easily be plugged back in if necessary. I
would not stray from the 7747 because then you would have to make wiring
harness changes and some of the mapping differences from a 7747 and
other ECMs can be a real headache.
Randy (others will come up with other things I forgot to cover :-)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
George Beckman
Improvement 1
Improvement 2
EBL has a What’s Up Display (WUD) that gives you X-Ray vision into the operation of your engine. If you have VSS, the WUD tells you how fast you are going. It tells you how many RPMs you are running. In addition it reports on over twenty other workings. You know what your MAP, Throttle Position, Temperature, Spark Advance, Knock Count, Injector Duty Cycle, BLM readings, Closed Loop, Idle, DEFCO (fuel shutoff), Lean Cruise, etc. A second screen gives instant and trip miles per gallon, fuel used, MAP reading and Lean Cruise at a glance. (See VSS, in Improvement 3 below.)
Improvement 3
Improvement 4
What I need is an idiot's guide.
Emery Stora
For one thing though, it seems as if there are at least a few options on how to put things together "to start" ie initial configuration if you're going to do this piecemeal. First option would be just the ECM out of the box, no bells & whistles or sensors. Consensus seems to be that will work and have benefits over a carb, but is really not taking advantage of all the possibilities. Then there's the option quoted above, then there's Randy's: start w/ ECM and add CCD, which requires ESC, which requires KS. Next step then would be add the EBL, then VSS. (Do correct me if any of this is wrong.)
So then the idiot's guide also needs to have PN and source info. I've found at least one source for everything except I have no clue about the CCD. I thought it was a Dick Paterson Springfield Ignition, but I didn't see anything on their site that was clearly a "CCD for EFI."
Here's the things I'm still confused about:
1) Source and PN for CCD as mentioned. Is it a Paterson thing and just not listed on his website?
2) Not sure what ROM/EPROM (whatever they are) I have. I found a hand-written note in some paperwork from PO that said "7747," and I understand that's the correct #, just don't know if that note meant that's what I've got or if that was the PO's note of what to get. Presume I have to take the ECM apart and look at the label on the chip to confirm.
3) Don't know what ppm my injectors are, or how to find out. But I do know from PO's service reports that they had to set up FP to 19-20psi to make it run, so suspect I do NOT have the 80's. So does this mean I am OK just compensating by running the higher FP? Or should I think about replacing with the correct 80ppm injectors?
4) Not sure about the wide/narrow band sensor thing. It's called an "air/fuel" sensor, but is that the same, ie does it replace, the "O2 sensor?" (Did I mention I'm not a mechanic? Pretty good with electronics, but very very limited mechanics experience.) I've seen the Zeitronix site and seems like consensus is the ZT-3 is sufficient for our engines.
5) I've seen 3 references for which KS to get: 2 options from Howell (MA209 & SD208), and a generic sensor for "1990 454 1-ton pickup." Don't know what's best, what's tradeoffs, etc
.
6) I've seen 3 references for which VSS to get: 1 from Howell (VSS263), one from JAG (found website, didn't dig deep enough to find VSS PN), and one ref to "Ray Swartzenduber" (no clue how to contact him or PN).
7) Saw the "EBL Flash Switcher" on DynamicEFI website. Is that a need-to-have, a nice-to-have, or not-relevant/overkill?
8) Saw reference to "IAT sensor" and "Ostrich emulator" needed for EBL. I'm clueless.
George Beckman
Dick Paterson is now selling CCD distributors ready to go. I say ready to go because the junk yard ones and the rebuilt probably will not have the correct polarity. Pickup coil needs to be changed but that is not too difficult.
If going to the CCD, you will also need a Knock Sensor and an ESC module.
Dick just started with the CCD so may not be on his web-site yet - would need to call him.
Bruce Hislop, Perth Communications
The EBL uses the same Flash technology.
Ostrich is not needed with EBL
Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
br...@perthcomm.com
Sent from my Blackberry Curve
Gordon
I think you need to fine tune that statement. Many of the GM ECM's have IDENTICAL PINOUTS. RBob has identified all that are the same and the precise differences of those that are not. I for one have a source of almost free ECM's from the scrap car guys. I just have to be ready and able to respond very quickly to take them out. When a fellow is only getting $75 per ton, he does not want to fool around taking parts off.
From RBob;
"
- ECM to be converted to an EBL system. The ECM can be any
one of the
following:
1226868 '85 MonteCarlo
1227429 '86-'88 S10 2.8l
1227746 Truck
1227747 Many Trucks & Vans
1228062 Blazer
1228063 '88 Camaro, Firebird
1228746 '89-'92 Camaro, Firebird, Caprice
1228747 Truck
1228838 '90 Lumina, 3.1l
16136965 '91-'94 Caprice, Roadmaster wagon
16144288 Blazer
16146299 Truck
16149405 '93 Trans Sport, Silhouette, Lumina: APV, 3.1l
16171199 '94-'95 trucks, MT
16196391 '95-'95 Lumina, Trans Sport, 3.1l
16196396 '94-'95 trucks, MT
If your vehicle uses one of these ECMs, the EBL ECM will be plug compatible. Most will be Plug'n'Play, some will need a pin or two moved on the harness connector (easy to do). In other words, unplug your stock ECM and plug in an enhanced EBL ECM with all of the features. "
Gordon
John Biwersi
Ken Henderson
Gary Worobec
I might be the newest of the newbies regarding the Howell EFI for the GMC.
While I did buy my system during the group buy a couple of years ago it
languished here in the office since then because the Q-jet was working very
well. Now with an issue with the iron manifold I decided to install it along
with a new Rockwell manifold. Here is what I did. By the way I had lots of
dumb questions which were patiently answered by George, Randy, Emery and Ken
(and a few others I should add).
ELECTRICAL
1. The cost of purchasing the EBL addition with the modified harness and the
pieces was cost prohibitive. I would have had to give up my existing Howell
ECM and harness and gotten zero credit for those items. I definitely wanted
to keep my ECM as a spare.
2. So I bought the EBL already installed into the ECM from DynamicEFI along
with the USB to serial adapter cable.
3. Bought the ESC, Knock sensor and VSS from Howell. Yes, probably could
have saved a few bucks but what the heck, Troy seems like a nice guy so lets
give him some buisness. If you do this make sure you ask Troy to include all
the WeatherPak connectors.
4. Bought the CCD distributor from Dick Paterson. I like him, he is a very
nice and pleasant guy. If you get his CCD also get his plug wire set. All
premium stuff.
5. Get a selection kit of WeatherPak connectors from Summit Racing so you
have some extras. You'll need a 4 pin for the CCD.
6. You'll need at least 7 colors of 16 gauge wire or a set of Thomas and
Betts wire ID labels.
7. You'll need special connectors for the connections to the ESC. Get these
from Mouser Electronics. The part numbers are listed on the GMCMHEFI site.
25 of each will cost you 6 bucks.
8. Get some convoluted black loom material from a local electronics store.
About 20 ft of 3/8 inch ought to do it. Probably 10 bucks.
9. There a three excellent diagrams on the GMCMHEFI site that show you what
connections need to be made into the harness. I think it is about 9 if I
recall. I used pliers to crimp the wires then a tiny dab of solder then
popped them into the right locations.
FUEL.
1. I'm keeping my existing CARTER electric pump but adding it in series with
the high pressure injection pump. I bought a matching relay connector and
two fuse holders from Howell so I could hook my existing pump into the
circuitry with the injection pump.
2. Bought two adapters to adapt the THROTTLE BODY fuel lines from push-on to
AN-6 so I can use my existing SS fuel line. Part numbers on the web site.
3. Removed the section of fuel filler pipe from the coach by cutting it at
the horizonal section and releasing it from the top hose clamp on the 1 3/8"
pipe. I welded in a fitting so I could screw in a AN-6 adapter for the
return. The method Howell says to do by punching a hole and threading is
mickey mouse.
4. Buy a new piece of 1 3/8" fuel filler hose from McMaster and replace
yours unless it is new. 9 bucks a foot
MISC
1. Emery has a nice set of directions on removing the existing "chip" in the
Howell loom that I have a hard copy of but cannot find his email. Hopefully
he will post it.
2. I'm going to use a BIN from the web site when ready to go.
3. My hope on this is to be able to allow one of the experts to tap into my
laptop via GO TO MEETING which we have an account for to be able to look at
my set up and make adjustments on the initial start up. Hopefully one of the
guys has a fast internet connection and we can do it.
Thanks
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA
=
Mr.erf ERFisher
It would be good to include the cost of each item so folks will know where and how to get them
thanks
gene
Randy Van Winkle
Yes you are correct, I didn't investigate all of the ECM in the list.
Many are the same. But if you are going to use the 7747 as a backup, be
real careful as to which have minor changes in the pinouts (one wire
different can cause problems). The plugs are the same but several use
different wires for different sensor types. Even limp home mode may not
get you home because some are set for V6s, etc.
Randy (maybe more cautious than I should be)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
Gordon
That is a great list. I would just like to add that the harness from a
GM full size van is a good, long, one as the 7747 ECM is under the
passenger seat. As it usually goes to the crusher from the men's mall,
$25 will often be enough and even less if you find a pullapart/pickapart.
Gordon
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Jay Rabe
On subject of the idiot's guide: George your "Getting the Most..." document is Great. If there was a way to update it a bit like with stuff from Gordon & Emory and others, it could be an incredible resource for everyone in the future. I understand google groups doesn't allow file document sharing anymore, but they do have Google Docs, which does the same thing, so I'm just asking/suggesting why don't you/we as a group decide to share such compiled knowledge there? And maybe even better, functionality-wise (due to ability to embed links), would be to set up a wikipedia page that would make it even easier to access and update for everyone. I'll be glad to help drive it in any way I can. Thoughts?
Kading, Hal
Since this is Ken's list I feel he should be the one to decide how we proceed. He asked for suggestions a while back.
Hal Kading
Ken Henderson
On subject of the idiot's guide: George your "Getting the Most..." document is Great. If there was a way to update it a bit like with stuff from Gordon & Emory and others, it could be an incredible resource for everyone in the future. I understand google groups doesn't allow file document sharing anymore, but they do have Google Docs, which does the same thing, so I'm just asking/suggesting why don't you/we as a group decide to share such compiled knowledge there? And maybe even better, functionality-wise (due to ability to embed links), would be to set up a wikipedia page that would make it even easier to access and update for everyone. I'll be glad to help drive it in any way I can. Thoughts?
Emery Stora
Jay
pump...@aol.com
=
Jay Rabe
Subject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] 7747, ESC, Knock sensor, CCD
On subject of the idiot's guide: George your "Getting the Most..." document is Great. If there was a way to update it a bit like with stuff from Gordon & Emory and others, it could be an incredible resource for everyone in the future. I understand google groups doesn't allow file document sharing anymore, but they do have Google Docs, which does the same thing, so I'm just asking/suggesting why don't you/we as a group decide to share such compiled knowledge there? And maybe even better, functionality-wise (due to ability to embed links), would be to set up a wikipedia page that would make it even easier to access and update for everyone. I'll be glad to help drive it in any way I can. Thoughts?
Ken Henderson
George Beckman
George Beckman
The 5284 doesn't tally with the numbers on my Howell-provided Holley 52-43 injectors which are labelled 6026A and 5720.
burtco99
web searching to see if I could expand on potential donor vehicles and
found this website:
http://www.exatorq.com/ludis_obd1/c3xref.html#1226868
They have a very detailed listing of ECMs and what they were installed
in and the data does not completely match with the list from RBob.
I thought that the above link might help in locating more donor
vehicles in the men's mall.
Thanks,
Les Burt
75 ELII
Just a lurker here for now.
On Jan 16, 12:31 am, Gordon <wizw...@telus.net> wrote:
> Randy;
> I think you need to fine tune that statement. Many of the GM ECM's have
> IDENTICAL PINOUTS. RBob has identified all that are the same and the
> precise differences of those that are not. I for one have a source of
> almost free ECM's from the scrap car guys. I just have to be ready and
> able to respond very quickly to take them out. When a fellow is only
> getting $75 per ton, he does not want to fool around taking parts off.
>
> From RBob;
> "
>
1976 PalmBeachGMC
I've tried to get in touch with Dick a few times via email and never get a
response. I would like to purchase one of his CCD distributors to replace
the one I bought from AutoZone. Did you have to give him your distributor
in exchange? I would like to keep my AutoZone CCD distributor to use as
spare.
What is the best way to contact Dick? Can you tell me how much to expect to
pay?
Richard
1976 Palm Beach w/RollerCam455/Howell EFI+EBL
SE Michigan
Website: www.PalmBeachGMC.com
Emery Stora
Dick is usually very prompt about answering his emails unless he is traveling.
Do you have the right address?
It is di...@paterson-gmc.com
Or you can telephone him
Emery Stora
Kading, Hal
When I bought my dist from Dick several years ago the core charge was very nominal. Well worth keeping as a spare.
Hal Kading
George Beckman
George Beckman
Randy Van Winkle
Randy (who does not like intermittent problems)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
Randy Van Winkle
that you might be picking up air as the fuel sloshes around in the tank?
I agree that trying the filter first would be a good first step. You
might cut the old one apart and see if it accumulated anything
unwanted. Of course, the pump is fairly easy to change. During any of
this and your next problem, did you try switching tanks? It just
occurred to me that you might be having a problem with that new selector
valve we put on at my place last year.
Randy (still not liking intermittent problems)
'77 Eleganza II "403"
Ken Henderson
during the short time you were stopped. Just don't trust those old
wires inside there, especially if, like mine, they're old and
"irreplaceable".
Ken H.
gene Fisher
you have had a bad year
gene
Paul Leavitt
George Beckman
Best Wishes,
George
Sent from my iPad