Hard to Start and Keep Running

[Randy Van Winkle]

I always like to read about other people's problems and solutions. Don't like to experience them first hand. But, I guess my number was up. I was experiencing some hard starting for a bit. So, I finally decided that I should do a little diagnostic work and fix the issue.

Symptoms:  It would start then die almost immediately.  I could press the throttle a bit then it would start and run OK. Letting off of the throttle, it would come back to idle but only idle at 450 to 500 rpms and, on occasion, die.  Once running and warmed up a little, it would run OK. Most of the problem was during cold start but once in a while it would do the same when warmed up.  I got in the habit of using a little throttle when starting and didn't have any problems once running but I knew something was amiss.

George and I talked over this problem a little.  My first thoughts were perhaps the module was acting up and causing the timing to be retarded (the module has a limp home mode) and he concurred.  So, I set about replacing the module.  First one, didn't allow the engine to start at all, so I suspected a bad module. The second one did the same so I replaced the coil with no joy. Thought I would put the original module back in. When I removed the distributor cap, I decided to just hook up the module that I had put in and give it another try.😣

Now it ran just like it had before I started tinkering.  I was sitting in the seat, watching the EBL screen where the tach was showing 450 to 500 rpms and the engine struggling to run.  That rpm range triggered a thought.  When you go through the adjustment procedure for setting the idle, you force the IAC closed, disconnect it, then set the idle speed with the adjustment screw so it idles around 450 to 500 rpms. When you hook the IAC back up, the computer brings the idle up to what is commanded (around 650 rpms) by opening the IAC up approx. 15 steps.

I then looked at the IAC and I could see the pintle seated in the air hole. A quick look at the WUD showed the IAC should be at 192 steps. The computer was trying for all it's worth to increase idle speed.  I removed the IAC, turned the key on and off a couple of times and no movement of the pintle and no clicking - just dead!

Went down to Oreillys and got a new one, stuck it in, and the engine fired up and went to commanded idle speed just like always.

I also gave a little thought to the timing chain but decided that would not present the same symptoms that I was having.

Randy "thinking at 120,000 miles timing chain may need attention?"

'77 Eleganza II "403"

[Gordon]

Randy,

Thank you for sharing the wisdom.

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[James Hupy]

Failed IAC. Hmmm. Not a usual thing to fail, but it is a mechanical device not too different from an injector. Subject to wear and tear as well as electrical failure. A two edged sword for sure. But old fashioned diagnostic skills ruled the day. Thanks for sharing. I won't forget to check that in the future. Say hi to Margie for Judy and I.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

--

[Larry Weidner]

Hummmm...wouldn't that (IAC) have shown as a code?

Larry  :-)

[Randy Van Winkle]

Larry, there is not any logic in the ECM that checks the status of the IAC and the IAC does not send any indicator of a fault.  If you look in the flags, there is not an error code to display for a faulty IAC.

Would have saved a little bit of troubleshooting time. Really, it was just an annoyance more than anything.  The engine ran fine and seemed to perform OK.  Maybe it will improve my gas mileage - don't know about that yet, but I was thinking mpg had dropped some while this problem was present.

Randy (hoping Lucy recovers quickly)

'77 Eleganza II "403"

[Bruce Hislop]

When I first installed the EBL and setup the idle per Bob Drews instructions, I would get a stumble off idle and a puff of black smoke. I mentioned this to BobR. He said the EBL doesn't look for a specific TPS sensor voltage to determine idle. When you first turn the key on it assumes the throttle is at idle position and uses that voltage. 

He also suggest this method of setting the idle position. With a warm engine and WUD connected, adjust the idle position screw for only 3-5 IAC counts. This gives maximum throttle plate opening and maximum air past the throttle plates to pick up the fuel. IAC air comes from above the injectors so has no fuel. My fuel was puddling on top of the throttle plates, then would get dumped when going off idle. 

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
Sent from my BlackBerry Classic with a real keypad!

From: Randy Van Winkle Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 2:17 AM To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com Reply To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] Hard to Start and Keep Running

[Bruce Hislop]

To clarify BobR's idle setting instructions a bit more.

- Have the engine up to operating temperature with the WUD operating to see the IAC counts
- Adjust the throttle position screw to obtain desired (target) idle speed with about 3-5 IAC counts on the WUD
    - When you open the throttle plate, IAC counts will decrease.  Closing the throttle plates will cause the IAC counts to increase.
  - You will need to wait a bit after each adjustment for the IAC counts to move and settle down.

You don't need to put the system into any "mode" to do this. 

The engine should now idle at your target RPM with minimum IAC counts, so most of the air will come across the throttle plates picking up fuel.  A small amount of air comes through the IAC to control the idle speed.

JWID

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
www.perthcomm.com
Please note our Office local phone number has changed to 519-273-3307
800-565-9983 & FAX 519-273-4111 remain the same.

[Larry Weidner]

Strange...they have error codes for most everything else. So now you will get between 8-10mpg? ;-)

Lucy is doing OK. Some muscle spasm's at the incision that keeps us from getting to complacent. That will go away with time. Thanks for the good wishes.

Larry (always glad to see Randy's got troubles too) ;-)

[Larry Weidner]

This would work OK with TB injection because of injector location relative to throttle plates.  But what about port injection where the injectors are out at the intake valve? Just as a point of information, I have a port injection with a batch fire...not sequential fire, so every 360*, four of the eight injectors fire. 360* later, the other four fire.

Larry :-)

[George Beckman]

The only fly in the ointment is if the IAC gets “off”. It shouldn’t but…

Because there is no feed back as to the actual position of the IAC and because I am pretty sure an IAC does not reset (Close all the way) it could get “off”, meaning that the stepper motor is at step 32 (just picked one out of the hat) and the computer thinks it is at step 12. This creates a garbage in garbage out situation. That is why it is nice to get the little guy in the right place to begin with. 

Here is that “initial” calibration written up by our old friend, Bob Drewes. (For anyone new, Bob was a great GMCer and a prince of a fellow who passed away too early. We miss him.)   https://sites.google.com/site/gmcmhefi/ebl-tips-folder/ebl-tips---initial-iac-calibration  By the way, Bob wrote this before the days of EBL. You can see the gymnastics we had to go through to look at a log file or burn a chip.

This is not to say the Bruce’s (and BobR’s) comments are not correct, but if there is any wonky-ness it may be good to reset it. Wonky-ness might be some of the troubles Randy was having or noting that the IAC count is off the charts. Randy’s 192 at idle was a hint and we missed it. The 10-15 would be more what is correct, if the throttle plates are “right” with an adjusted IAC. On the other extreme, if the IAC is closed when idling, trying to slow the engine down, the pintle (moving valve part of the IAC) is jammed into the seat, an abnormal situation. Bob Drewes noted that this can damage the pintle.

Of course you can’t adjust a broken IAC!

 

On Jun 17, 2016, at 6:11 AM, Bruce Hislop <br...@perthcomm.com> wrote:

- Have the engine up to operating temperature with the WUD operating to see the IAC counts
- Adjust the throttle position screw to obtain desired (target) idle speed with about 3-5 IAC counts on the WUD
    - When you open the throttle plate, IAC counts will decrease.  Closing the throttle plates will cause the IAC counts to increase.
  - You will need to wait a bit after each adjustment for the IAC counts to move and settle down.

----
Best Wishes,

George
http://www.pggp.com

[bc...@juno.com]

This sounds like another reason to prefer port injection, which has no problem
with extra air injection. Larry, your system sounds like the factory system on
my 79 Eldo.

Bruce Roe
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Larry Weidner <Weid...@wwt.net> 17 Jun 16

This would work OK with TB injection because of injector location relative
to throttle plates. But what about port injection where the injectors are out
at the intake valve? Just as a point of information, I have a port injection
with a batch fire...not sequential fire, so every 360*, four of the eight
injectors fire. 360* later, the other four fire.
Larry

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[George Beckman]

To be clear, something I rarely am…

If were were to take BobR’s advice (usually a good thing) we could still do the Bob Drewes initial calibration. Then, after it is hopefully between 10 and 15 steps, open the plates watching the WUD to make the 3-5 steps suggested by BobR.

On Jun 17, 2016, at 7:56 AM, George Beckman <gbec...@pggp.com> wrote:

Here is that “initial” calibration written up by our old friend, Bob Drewes. (For anyone new, Bob was a great GMCer and a prince of a fellow who passed away too early. We miss him.)   https://sites.google.com/site/gmcmhefi/ebl-tips-folder/ebl-tips---initial-iac-calibration  By the way, Bob wrote this before the days of EBL. You can see the gymnastics we had to go through to look at a log file or burn a chip.

[Bruce Hislop]

For the EBL, I believe each time you shut OFF the engine, the IAC goes closed to reset then opens to the steps set in the BIN for initial startup position.  From what I see, going closed isn't a "jammed into the seat" condition.  Sure its closed with the forced of a few ounces, but the metal cone shaped pintle will not suffer damage at those forces.

BobR's method means more air is going past the throttle plates where it can pick up fuel.  Increasing the IAC steps allows more air without fuel leaving a lean condition. Now the computer increases the fuel low to compensate, but the fuel can't be used because the throttle plates are closed too much, so the extra fuel puddles on top on the plates.

Just my experience for what its worth.

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
www.perthcomm.com
Please note our Office local phone number has changed to 519-273-3307
800-565-9983 & FAX 519-273-4111 remain the same.

[James Hupy]

That is why the throttle plates need to be open at closed throttle about .007". That much open and the gasoline can readily pass them. Much more than that and it IAC cannot compensate. I use a blade type feeler gage and a screwdriver to turn the idle adjustment screw. I start with a bigger opening and get smaller and smaller until a pretty good drag is felt between the feeler gage and the throttle plate. It works well for me. But some of the holley throttle bodies vary a bit on throttle plate fit. Yours might be a couple of thousandths off.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Randy Van Winkle]

If I recall, many of the original Howell users had some issue with the puff of black smoke when going off-idle.  We came to the conclusion that Bruce stated which was fuel puddling on top of the throttle plates. Bob Drewes found and documented the procedure for correctly setting the idle speed which eliminated most of the issues.  That procedure is a bit involved so I have been doing what Bruce indicated and setting the idle adjustor by watching the IAC steps.  I shoot for a tad bit more than 2 to 5 steps (more like 6 to 8) because I think there should be a little more buffer on the lower end. 

And, yes, the ECM closes the IAC when you do a key-off. It then sets the IAC at a commanded number of steps (42 to 45 at operating temps but varies based on coolant temps) for the next restart at key-on. So, in a sense, the IAC is self calibrating.

For port injection, the idle calibration of the IAC is not as critical. I think a good target would be 10 to 15. You want much of the air coming through the IAC because it is metered better than the throttle plates. Just my 2 cents.

It is also good to do a driveway VE learn to make sure the VE cells are optimal at the idle rpms.  That can correct some lean or rich idle conditions when in closed loop which in turn helps the open loop idle.

Larry & Lucy, we will miss you at Branson. Margie and I can't fill Lucy and your shoes during setup week but will give it a try.

Randy (leaving Sunday to help with Branson Rally setup)

'77 Eleganza II "403"

[George Beckman]

Self calibrating. I like that. 

Nice to have smart guys. I spent about 30 minutes on the Internets (sic) and could not find that it closed on key-off. 30 minutes I won’t get back. Should have just waited for an answer.

On Jun 17, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Randy Van Winkle <rlva...@gmail.com> wrote:

And, yes, the ECM closes the IAC when you do a key-off. It then sets the IAC at a commanded number of steps (42 to 45 at operating temps but varies based on coolant temps) for the next restart at key-on. So, in a sense, the IAC is self calibrating.

[Jim Kanomata]

Bruce,

I'm sure most throttle body has the air bleeder system just like the Howell or MSD and FI tech.

Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Larry Weidner]

Randy,

The last time we were at Branson, (a couple of years ago) the crates had to be stored outside on the asphalt in front of the meeting room.  The first crate to be opened is #1.  It has the pallet jack in it.  I did the best I could to sweep the asphalt clean of stones, but was not good enough.  What stones that were left, ate up the rubber covering on the pallet jack wheels. The rubber laminate finally pealed off, and we ended up buying new wheels for the pallet jack, an expensive venture.  Not sure how you all want to handle it but if you can avoid using the pallet jack....well.....

Also, one of the crates has a stack of tarps that you will need to cover the crates in case of rain.  We ended up over lapping them and stapling them down so the wind would not blow them away.  Also, find the orange caution parking cones and place them every 5-6 feet from each other across the front of the crates, or people will park in front of and up close to the crates, limiting your access. Then screw some "NO PARKING" signs on the cones. If you don't do this, they will park so close to the crates, that it will severely limit your access to them.  That whole thing was particularly frustrating because people parked there anyway..sometimes pulling their cars in between the "NO PARKING" cones.

Good to see someone like you helping with this. Have a good time and hope to see you in Ohio this fall.

Larry  :-)

[Walt Halley]

Randy 

I had a conversation with you at Branson, MO this year and said that I had a similar problem. You indicated that you changed the idle air motor and things worked normally. I changed the IAC in my coach and found that there was no change.

I had originally installed a Holley system. I hooked up the Holley ECU and found the IAC would go through a "calibration" routine. It would close completely and then retract. I presumed it retracted to  a commanded position.

I then hooked up a non EBL 7727 ECU  and discovered that it also had a similar routine.

I checked with a friend that has a Mega Squirt system and he indicated that it too had a "calibration" routine.

So, armed with this information I ordered a new ECU from Dynamic EFI. The thinking there, was my ECU had bad drivers and would not drive the IAC.

I installed the new ECU and everything worked fine but I noticed that there was not a "calibration" routine.

What I think I know about stepper motors is they do not have a feedback to the commanding device therefore the commanding device doesn't know exactly where they are.

If this is the case,  we can turn off the engine and the commanded steps could 150. The next start could be commanded 50 and the stepper would be at 150. So the ECU (commanding device) would think the stepper was at 50 and the IAC would be at 150. 

If my data gathering is correct, this could explain a high idle condition which I have experienced. In town a high idle equates to a pucker factor of 6 or more!

Let me know what you think.

Walt

[Bruce Hislop]

Walt,

I'm pretty sure my EBL upon shut OFF runs the IAC to zero (close) then‎ opens to the initial setting. 

Are you saying the WUD shows IAC counts at zero as it tries to slow the idle but the IAC is still far open?

I'll check mine for you today. 

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
Sent from my BlackBerry Classic with a real keypad!

From: Walt Halley Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 7:37 PM To: GMCMH EFI Reply To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com Subject: [GMCMH-EFI] Re: Hard to Start and Keep Running

--

[Gordon]

    IIRC this was discussed a short while ago and the consensus is the IAC closes completely on shut down and then goes to commanded position on start up?

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[Randy Van Winkle]

Walt,

I think all ECM have a routine to calibrate the IAC.  The procedure varies based on the ECM.  The EBL changes some of the behavior of the IAC by using a "learn" table so that it can anticipate the correct steps for idle as you slow down.  The stock ECM waited until you were at idle before closing the IAC to idle position.  I would be surprised if you are not seeing the IAC "park" (based on a table) at key off then go to a set position based on coolant temp upon key on.  This parking and reset is part of the original calibration procedure so that the ECM knows where the IAC is.

You can force a reset of the IAC.

Randy (getting ready to head for Canada - not a political statement. lol)

'77 Eleganza II "403"

--

[Randy Van Winkle]

Oops, I see that the last part of my post got messed up.  At key off the ECM closes the IAC then, knowing where zero is, parks the IAC at a commanded number of steps.  At key on, the IAC is then moved to startup position based on coolant temperature.

You can force a reset of the IAC by jumpering A to B on the aldl connector.  This closes the IAC. Turn key off.  You can then disconnect the IAC and adjust the idle to around 450 to 500 rpms.  Turn engine off and reconnect IAC.  The IAC will then reset itself on subsequent key on and off and will also idle at around 10 to 15 steps.  If you are warmed up and at idle with IAC steps either at zero or greater than 20 or 25 steps, then this procedure should be performed.  A shortcut is to turn the idle adjust screw until you get around 10 steps at idle. 

Randy (just adjusted someone's IAC last week)

'77 Eleganza II "403"

[Bruce Hislop]

RobR told me the EBL does not need the TPS set for a specific voltage at idle like the original 7747 ECB required. It assumes your foot is off the gas peddle ‎when you turn the key ON to start and uses that voltage as the idle position. If you have your foot pressed on the peddle past a certain point it assumes you are trying to clear a flooded condition and does not inject fuel as you crank. I don't remember all the conditions for that flooded start mode. 

RobR should write a manual for the EBL with all the parameter documented and how they affect each other. 

What would be really helpful is a real time mode where you could adjust for instance the fuel mixture from stone cold or advance/retard the timing while running down the road to find the sweet spot.

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
Sent from my BlackBerry Classic with a real keypad!

From: Randy Van Winkle Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 3:57 PM

To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com Reply To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] Re: Hard to Start and Keep Running

[Richard V]

I have to capitulate to progress and finally replace my Windows Vista notebook with Windows 10.  I currently have the EBL connected to the Vista notebook with a 4 year old serial/USB cable with the FTD chipset.

Will that same cable work with the new Windows 10 notebook?

Eventually I'd like to have a dash-mounted tablet for the EBL, routing, backup camera, etc.  Would an Android tablet be the way to go?  I'd consider an Apple tablet if that's not too problematic.

Thanks

Richard V

[Johnny Bridges]

The USB is backward compatible.  The EBL >should< be.  Give it a try, some legacy ware doesn't like win10 very much. 

The tablets usually have USB connectivity, so as long as there's an app for the Android OS it would work.  As far as the other, there are routing and external video for most of them.  Yiou'll need a GPS receiver if the tablet doesn't have one native.

I'd do a 'try before you buy' setup. 

---johnny

---

From: 'Richard V' via GMCMH EFI <gmcm...@googlegroups.com>
To: "gmcm...@googlegroups.com" <gmcm...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 10:12 AM
Subject: [GMCMH-EFI] EBL & Windows 10

[gene Fisher]

This will save your vista hardware and files

It will be running lunix when done

http://www.xtra-pc.com

$25

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and -------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Bruce Hislop]

Richard,

We have been running some radio programming software under windoze 10 using a newer serial/USB cable with relatively (in computer terms) few problems.

BobR used serial communications for reliability. Serial uses +/- 15 volt (30 volt swing) vs USB is 5 volt swing so serial is more immune to the noise in the mobile/engine environment. I know there are (were) some adapters that did not work well in the mobile environment. BobR was supplying one that was test (not sure about the Win10 issue though)

I'm still using my ole' reliable XP laptop with a real serial port.

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
www.perthcomm.com
Please note our Office local phone number has changed to 519-273-3307
800-565-9983 & FAX 519-273-4111 remain the same.

[Gary Worobec]

Does not look like DynamicEFI has done a lot of work on the EBL. From their web site

Laptop Requirements:

The What's Up Display will run on XP, Vista, and Windows 7, 8, 8.1 or 10. The What's Up Display requires a serial port on the laptop to communicate with the EBL Flash system. If a USB port is available a USB-to-serial adapter cable can be used (Information for the one we offer, purchase it with an EBL Flash and save more, order above with your EBL Flash system). The cable needs to be able to handle a sustained throughput of 57.6 kb and fast turn around times. Adapter cables using the FTDI chip set are highly recommended.

Gary and Joanne Worobec

Anza, CA

1973 Glacier 23

[James Hupy]

The original cable I got from EBL was configured to read only. I tried to upload some new bin files to the GM  1227747 Computer with the embedded locker and no joy. After several failed attempts, I consulted Bob R. He sent me a read/write configured cable and I was finally able to install the correct program for my particular application. I don't  know if all the cables furnished initially with the EBL are like mine was, but it bears checking out to verify. Between Randy Van Winkle, George, Bob R., and Jim K. You should be able to solve any tuning issues with the Howell EFI system regardless of which camshaft, heads, headers, intake manifolds, ignition setup that you have. The bin files furnished with the EBL are somewhat generic and broad based. At least from my experience. Yours might vary a bit.

Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[Gordon]

Am I missing something.  Widows 10 can be run as 8, 7, Vista or XP.

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[Randy Van Winkle]

Richard, I'm not sure about the FTD chipset. I was using a prolific chipset on Win7 but had to upgrade to a later version in order to run on Win8.  I had not problems migrating to Win10.  EBL works great as well as the newer prolific USB to Serial. http://plugable.com/products/pl2303-db9 is where I got my new adapter.

The EBL will not run on an Android tablet nor on an Apple.  George displays the EBL on his iPhone but has a Windows machine that runs the EBL. He displays on the iPhone using VNC.

I would just try your old cable on Win10.  I have not had any old programs not work on Win10. 

Randy (trying to stay cool)

'77 Eleganza II "403"

Richard V

--

[Wally Anderson]

Megasquirt 2 IAC calibration is at startup. IAC goes wide open then steps closed to whatever is set in the coolant temperature table. The there is no always on battery connection only power from the ignition switch. It knows cranking by ignition trigger between between user set rpms after a power cycle.
EBL stepping all the way closed to get a zero I think is better.

[Gordon]

http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Swartzendruber_Generic_TBI_SlidesNotes.pdf

5.5 PRE-ADJUSTMENTS BEFORE STARTING ENGINE 5.5.1 Throttle Position Sensor Adjustment (TPI ONLY) A. Turn on ignition but do not start engine. B. Check to insure throttle is not depressed C. At the throttle position sensor, place a digital voltmeter's probes into the blue and black wires in the back of the sensors connector, which is plugged into the sensor. D. Loosen the sensor mounting screws and adjust the sensor until the meter reads .5 volts (1/2 of one volt). E. Tighten the mounting screws and recheck the meter reading. F. Some after market chips require a different setting, check their instructions carefully 5.5.2 Base Engine Idle Adjustment (all TBI & TPI) A. Turn on ignition but do not start engine. B. Jumper A & B of the ALDL as if you were checking codes. C. Wait 30 seconds and then remove the plug from the IAC motor. D. Remove jumper from ALDL. E. Start engine and adjust idle speed with adjusting screw at throttle lever (there may be a cap covering the adjusting screw that will need to be removed and discarded). F. Shut off engine and disconnect battery for one minute. G. Plug the IAC connector back in and then reconnect the battery. H. Start engine and check for proper idle speed.

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[Walt Halley]

Randy

Did some more checking on the IAC motor.

 I wrote a sketch for an arduino and used a Sain Smart stepper driver A4988 to test the stepper and found that the IAC would move then stop and click, after several clicking routines it would start to move again. Tested a new motor and it would extend and retract without stopping. After replacing the IAC  I noted, that as you stated, when the key was turned off the stepper would extend to the closed (0 steps) position and retract to the IAC park commanded position (143 steps). Thanks for your help.

Walt

[Richard V]

Thanks for the help, gentlemen.  I'll try the existing setup with the new notebook and think positive thoughts.  ;)

Sorry for the delayed response.  I'll be putting in a new engine around August 5th, and that's been taking up most of my thoughts.

Richard

[Bruce Hislop]

Richard,

We think you need some more stressful things in your life to occupy your thoughts.  

Bruce Hislop
Perth Communications
Sent from my BlackBerry Classic with a real keypad!

From: 'Richard V' via GMCMH EFI Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:37 PM

To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com Reply To: gmcm...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GMCMH-EFI] EBL & Windows 10

[Richard V]

Bruce, my life is not all beer and skittles.  I don't like skittles.  ;)

As far as GMC stress, SpookyEng posted on the GMCnet yesterday about being broke down on the side of the road and the coach got sideswiped, front side trashed, wife banged up her hip.  And he started the trip with a broken shoulder.  That guy's got stress!

[Richard V]

Randy,

I had not thought about going wireless, but it's an interesting idea.  I'm not an Apple guy.  Do you know offhand if there is a VNC equivalent for Windows to Android?

Richard 

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Randy Van Winkle

<rlva...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Randy Van Winkle]

Richard,

I'm not sure off the top of my head and we have limited Internet here in Canada to do the research. What you want to look for is the ability to run the vnc as a server. Clients can then connect to it.

I found an 8 inch Nextbook with win10 for under $100. It is mostly dedicated to running EBL and works great.

Randy (enjoying the lakes in northern Ontario)
'77 Eleganza I I "403"