Couple new questions on an EFI install

[Cameron]

I have a couple new questions, please!

1. My harness came with a knock sensor (but no knock sensor).  Anyone have some part numbers or examples? 

2. My harness came wired for a narrow band o2 sensor.  I bought a wide band sensor but the connector isn’t compatible.  Any body know how to adapt the wide band sensor to the narrow band connector?

Thanks!

Cameron 

[Bill Van Vlack]

Cameron...

1. I haven't had much luck with the knock sensor; hopefully someone that does will respond and we'll both find out.

2. A WB02 sensor needs to be connected to one of the analog input ports; usually port 1. You'll need a WBO2 controller that can a signal within the 0-5V range. I think mine is .5V to 4.5V.  The NBO2 connector only supports NB02. I don't know whether the EBL can use just the WB02. I had bungs for both installed, one one each side.

Bill

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[Bruce Hislop]

A narrow band O2 switches back and forth between rich and lean.  A wide-band sensor needs an interface box that outputs an analog voltage that varies with the AFR.

I have a narrow band sensor that wires direct to the EBL.  I also have Dynamic EFI's wide-band sensor and interface box.  It's wide-band output connects to one of the auxiliary analog inputs on the EBL.  The EBL can use either the wide-band or narrow band sensor for VE learning.  So the question is do you have the interface box for your wide-band sensor?

Bruce Hislop

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[Bruce Hislop]

The knock sensor is just a type of microphone device.  It needs a module that is designed to filter only the knock frequencies for your size engine.  It then sends an output to the EBL. 

Bruce Hislop

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 8:04 PM Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Cameron]

Hey Bruce,

No, I do not have that interface box.  I was not sure where to start on moving to the WB sensor.  If going to dEFI is my point I will contact them.

So, that’s what I should be asking for?  A WB sensor box from dEFI?

Thanks!

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[BruceHislop]

I just looked and Dynamic EFI no longer makes their TT-1 wide band system.  There are other WB sensor and interfaces, but they usually are sold together as a kit.  Does the manufacturer of your sensor offer an interface box?

Hopefully other users will chime in with other makes and models.

Bruce Hislop

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[Bill Van Vlack]

I used this wide band sensor from Innovate Motorsports... It uses the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor and provides two 0-5v signals.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FFTAJPC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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[Jon Roche]

I had this issue with this when I did my efi. 

There are many wide band o2 “boxes” to choose from.   I bought a plx one that also sends the wide band o2 info to an app on my phone.       I thought it went goofy once, but was an exhaust manifold leak.   Small exhaust leaks can really effect the wide band o2.   The narrow band did show any noticeable change in how it was doing the efi. 

https://www.plxdevices.com/PLX-Wideband-O2-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Sensor-Modules-Gauges-s/125.htm

The narrow band o2 is mounted as close to the engine as possible….  On one side(usually driver side of exhaust).  And that is the one that runs the efi.    

The narrow band is mounted down the exhaust usually after the two sides of engine exhaust come

Together.   It is more of a tuning use.  And diagnostic use.  

https://www.plxdevices.com/PLX-Wideband-O2-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Sensor-Modules-Gauges-s/125.htm

On Jul 29, 2023, at 9:27 PM, BruceHislop <bhis...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I just looked and Dynamic EFI no longer makes their TT-1 wide band system.  There are other WB sensor and interfaces, but they usually are sold together as a kit.  Does the manufacturer of your sensor offer an interface box?

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[James Hupy]

Why do you feel a wide band 02 sensor is necessary? A 1950's designed behemoth engine like the 455 small bore/long stroke dinosaur has combustion chambers designed around leaded fuels. Squish areas are pretty much non existent. 

Trying to get one to run cleanly with no lead fuels is nearly an impossible task. You can do somewhat better than a massive 4 barrel quadrajet carb, but even approaching the air/fuel ratios that modern oversquare engines run at, will result in knocking and if allowed to continue very long, serious engine damage to the 455.

Keep the timing mild, and the fuel mixture rich and live with the fact that you are pushing a 10,000+ pound vehicle down the road.

Jim Hupy

Salem, Oregon 

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[George Beckman]

Cameron,

I “believe” many are using a knock sensor from an Astro van, V6 4.3. It seems to be comparable  bore? The van had a 7747 ECU. It has to run through a pin 5 control module. (You only use 4 of the pins.). That’s the combination I use, and it reports knocks.

On Jul 29, 2023, at 5:04 PM, Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. My harness came with a knock sensor (but no knock sensor).  Anyone have some part numbers or examples? 

---------

Best Wishes,

George
gbec...@graestone.org

[Cameron]

Jon, thanks!

I believe you typo’d a section, though.

Your 2 mounting instructions say ‘narrow band’.  Which one is further down the exhaust after they combine?  I’m currently mounted up by the header on the driver side..

Thanks again!

Cameron 

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[Jon Roche]

Every ebl/gm system from my wy experience since I have installed mine seems to need some tweaking of the BIN file.   I put the applied BIN in my engine and it would not hardly make it around the block.  A quick log and watching what the wide band was showing it was a quick tweak and all was well. 

I am no expert, but cams, holly compared to a rochester tbi….   Headers, heads.  Who knows what other differences make tuning the BIN file needed.   But I have seen over 1/2 dozen times the past year having the wide band o2 in place made it a quick easy diagnose and fix.  

Mine when it later developed a small header gasket leak, my wide band o2 showed that issue.   

Maybe not necessary ….  But for most of us that are not professional tuners it is such a simple easy and seems very accurate diagnostic  tool.    

The wide band o2 and my fuel pressure display has saves me lots of time and energy when things are not working perfect. 

On Jul 30, 2023, at 10:01 AM, James Hupy <james...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jon Roche]

Yep.  Typo.   Bad typing on my phone with fat thumbs.  

Wide band installed after exhaust

Merges. 

As far as knock sensor goes, somewhere there is a part number for the 454 esc.  But they are hard

To find.    So many use the astro one.  Seems most have no issues with knock, yet there are some installs they get many false knocks.  

Mine is installed per randy van winckles

Instructions with it in the water jacket port on passenger front of block.   Seems to work well.  I do have an esc out of a vehicle that was 454 powered. 

On Jul 30, 2023, at 10:50 AM, Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Jon, thanks!

I believe you typo’d a section, though.

Your 2 mounting instructions say ‘narrow band’.  Which one is further down the exhaust after they combine?  I’m currently mounted up by the header on the driver side..

Thanks again!

Cameron 

On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 7:40 AM Jon Roche <lqqk...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had this issue with this when I did my efi. 

There are many wide band o2 “boxes” to choose from.   I bought a plx one that also sends the wide band o2 info to an app on my phone.       I thought it went goofy once, but was an exhaust manifold leak.   Small exhaust leaks can really effect the wide band o2.   The narrow band did show any noticeable change in how it was doing the efi. 

https://www.plxdevices.com/PLX-Wideband-O2-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Sensor-Modules-Gauges-s/125.htm

The narrow band o2 is mounted as close to the engine as possible….  On one side(usually driver side of exhaust).  And that is the one that runs the efi.    

The wide band is mounted down the exhaust usually after the two sides of engine exhaust come

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[Bill Van Vlack]

After George's comment about Astro van knock sensors and ESCs, I found these two items on Ebay:

Sensor ($25.21): https://www.ebay.com/itm/165671398190  Installed in water jacket on passenger side.

ESC ($49.95)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/114177925796?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=ASuE1wS_Cwn5_4_F1afAaEvjH29QGMWmwR7OKnfJIfjJX0u9u8pgnvwdfhQ

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[Cameron]

thanks!

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[Cameron]

hey Bill and Jon,

having some challenges on the wb02 sensor.

I started with Jon's suggestion and (tried) to buy one from plx.  however, after a week of hearing nothing I called to see when it would ship, they said end of september or beginning of october.  well, that didnt work for me, so I moved on to Bill's suggestion and purchased the innovate model. however, that doesnt appear to be as 'easy' to connect as the plx.  plx seemed to take the nb plug from the harness and connect it to the wb plug from the wb sensor.  I am not sure what the innovate one is expected to do.

reading the directions for the innovate sensor now, but would appreciate some advice as to how this relates to our setup.

thanks!

Cameron

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[Bill Van Vlack]

Hi Cameron....

   To connect a WB02 sensor to the EBL system you need to use one of the ADC ports, preferably port  0. These ports allow 0-5v signals, which the Innovate can provide. The port is configured using the WUD under ;File', then 'Preferences' and then 'ADC Channels' and select the port and then the appropriate dropdown...  Here is how mine is configured.

The Innovate does not use any of the factory harness conductors; I mounted the Innovate controller next to the EBL, then a pair of wires to the ADC ports inside the EBL case, one to port 0 and one to the ADC ground point.  Here's Dynamic EFI's info on the ADC ports:   https://www.dynamicefi.com/ADC_Connect.php

Bill

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[James Hupy]

Cameron, are you speaking English? Some of us don't speak in abbreviations.  I had a hard time understanding your questions? This is not meant to be unfriendly but if I don't understand your question, I have a hard time answering it. Sorry.

Jim Hupy

Salem, Oregon 

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[Bill Van Vlack]

Abbreviations...

WB02:  Wide band oxygen sensor

NB02:  Narrow band oxygen sensor

plx:    A brand of wide band oxygen sensor

EBL: Embedded Lockers modification by Dynamic EFI to a stock General Motors Electronic Control Module (EFI controller)

ADC:   Analog to Digital Convertor (part of the EBL system)

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[Cameron]

sorry James.

plx is a vendor that sells a converter of the wide band sensor

I was using "wb" as the short hand for wide band and "nb" as short hand for narrow band.

thanks Bill!

reading the documentation there are 2 analog outputs.  the "yellow wire" is variable from 0v to 5v for different AFR's.  the "brown wire" looks like it is just giving narrow band output.  is that what you remember in your setup?

thanks again for all the advice!

Cameron

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 9:40 AM James Hupy <james...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Bill Van Vlack]

More or less; I don't remember the wire colors.

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[James Hupy]

Thank you very much. Bill clarified the list. Every time I have installed one of these fuel injection systems, I have noticed several differences from the last one that I installed. 

     No two of them are precisely the same. Clear back to the time when it was popular to raid men's malls (automotive salvage yards) for various pieces from GM cars. There have been differences in the same make and model of cars, depending up whether or not they were California equipped or 49 states optioned. The O2 sensors particularly. On the aftermarket stuff, I personally prefer the European Bosch ones.

     My personal take on this is to K.I.S.S. any system that I might have to work on later. Keep it simple, stupid. is a reminder to myself to not over-complicate anything I work on.

Jim Hupy 

Salem, Oregon 

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[George Beckman]

I also use the Innovate and Autometer. Both are important for diagnosis.

Example: Going up a slight incline I was stepping down more and more. I realized the gas was like stepping on a grapefruit, squishy but no results. 

I looked at the What’s Up Display, and I was in Power Enrichment. Air/Fuel was 19/1. Looked at fuel pressure, and it was around 5lbs. I run it at 17lbs., so I found the tree along that section of I-80 in Nevada. I guessed a plugged fuel filter. Before shutting it down, I decided to go out to see if I was parked in an advantageous spot. At the door I could hear the fuel pump grinding. Swapped it out and all was well. 

Ruth took a picture of us by the tree.

On Aug 8, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Bill Van Vlack <bill.va...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Cameron....

   To connect a WB02 sensor to the EBL system you need to use one of the ADC ports, preferably port  0. These ports allow 0-5v signals, which the Innovate can provide. The port is configured using the WUD under ;File', then 'Preferences' and then 'ADC Channels' and select the port and then the appropriate dropdown...  Here is how mine is configured.

<image.png>

The Innovate does not use any of the factory harness conductors; I mounted the Innovate controller next to the EBL, then a pair of wires to the ADC ports inside the EBL case, one to port 0 and one to the ADC ground point.  Here's Dynamic EFI's info on the ADC ports:   https://www.dynamicefi.com/ADC_Connect.php

Bill

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 7:49 AM Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:

hey Bill and Jon,

having some challenges on the wb02 sensor.

I started with Jon's suggestion and (tried) to buy one from plx.  however, after a week of hearing nothing I called to see when it would ship, they said end of september or beginning of october.  well, that didnt work for me, so I moved on to Bill's suggestion and purchased the innovate model. however, that doesnt appear to be as 'easy' to connect as the plx.  plx seemed to take the nb plug from the harness and connect it to the wb plug from the wb sensor.  I am not sure what the innovate one is expected to do.

reading the directions for the innovate sensor now, but would appreciate some advice as to how this relates to our setup.

thanks!

Cameron

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 9:05 PM Bill Van Vlack <bill.va...@gmail.com> wrote:

I used this wide band sensor from Innovate Motorsports... It uses the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor and provides two 0-5v signals.

<image.png>

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FFTAJPC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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[M B]

If you haven’t invested too much yet another consideration is this https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-0300

It kit gives you a bosch sensor, cables, digital gauge, and 0-5 V and RS232 output for data-logging and feedback control. This what my PO installed. I have yet to connect it to the ECM but its just one white wire to do so (using the link Bill provided). 

[Bill Van Vlack]

That Summit WBO2 gauge looks like a great option. I use WinLog-EBL to display the AFR from the WBO2, but this is great if you want a physical gauge plus an input to the EFI system. The EBL ADC terminal strip has a few terminals for grounds so I ran a ground wire from the WB controller to the ADC to make sure the signal had a good reference

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[Cameron]

yeah, it does look like a good option, buy I already have the innovate one and trying to get my money back from plx for the one they can sell but cant ship!

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[Cameron]

New question, pls!

any advice on how to connect a VSS (vehicle speed sensor) to the ECM/EBL?

thanks!

[BruceHislop]

Adding the VSS is fairly simple.  The EBL has an internal pull-up resistor so a standard reed switch sensor is simply wired from A10 to ground.  If you are using a Dakota Digital VSS box, simply wire the input from the EBL (pin A10) to the square wave output and set it to 2000 pulses per hour.

There is also a filter parameter on the A10 input which will help get rid of noise.  If the speedo display on the WUD is bouncing you will need to increase the filter.

Bruce Hislop

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[Cameron]

Bruce, thank you!  however, I have no idea what you are talking about!  apparently your "fairly simple" is my "incredibly complex".  do you know if there are any images out there that might reduce the complexity for me?

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[Jon Roche]

What speed sensor system are you trying to hook up?

On Aug 11, 2023, at 9:22 AM, Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Cameron]

Hey Jon,

it is a Dakota Digital.  the model mentioned in randy's write up seems to have gone out of production.  but it is just the newer version of that (sgi-100bt).

thanks!

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[Jon Roche]

So you have the speed sensor itself??   That hooks inline to the speedometer cable?  Sen1-1?    That should hook  wire into the input of  sgi-100bt.    Then the output goes to the harness per the wiring diagram.   Pin a10. 

Sgi-100bt i think needs a +12 (ign source) and a ground too. 

https://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Drawings.php

 

On Aug 11, 2023, at 10:10 AM, Cameron <cbi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Cameron]

thanks, I think I am getting it now.  the output of the sgi goes directly into the harness at pin a10.  correct?  it looks like that is a blank slot by default?  can you let me know what that [metal connector thing that I would run the wire to inside the harness block] is called?  so I can search for one or ask the hardware store for one..

thanks!

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[Bill Van Vlack]

ECM Connector info

https://www.dynamicefi.com/RePinHowTo.php

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