"Disabled" accounts

[worth...@gmail.com]

Any idea why Google chose to tell account-holders whose stored emails
were erased during the recent "blank-out" that their accounts were
disabled and that disabling was usually done on the basis of violation
of terms of service? I wondered for two days what I might have done to
trigger this until I started to get a different message to the effect
that I couldn't log in because of "storage maintenance."

Worth

[Andy]

We wondered the same thing.

My guess is that Google threw together the "suspended for abuse" thing
in a really big hurry to get those accounts into a dormant state where
they couldn't receive any more emails (which would have been lost
after restoring from backups).

The better approach would have been to disable only the email part of
the account, and with a more proper message. I'm guessing they didn't
have that already coded and ready to go (just in case something like
this happened), so it took them a few more hours, during which their
attention was probably focused on figuring out how this had happened
and how to get it fixed.

I had that message by the end of the first day that I noticed the problem.

Andy

[Ryan Morehart]

Because... they screwed up and something happened to the accounts? It
could very well be that they just needed to block access as quickly as
possible to make it easier to restore the emails and they didn't have
a specific "we deleted everything you've ever loved in life" page. Or
something like that.

Ryan

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[worth...@gmail.com]

All I can say (and I greatly hope this comment will not be moderated
out) is that it is hard to imagine the arrogance of a company that has
such vast and complex operations and whose only pre-formed thought is
that any mistake must be on account of abuse on the part of the
individual user.

[Marko Vukovic]

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:13 PM, worth...@gmail.com <worth...@gmail.com> wrote:

All I can say (and I greatly hope this comment will not be moderated
out) is that it is hard to imagine the arrogance of a company that has
such vast and complex operations and whose only pre-formed thought is
that any mistake must be on account of abuse on the part of the
individual user.

Hi Worth

This group is, AFAIK not owned or moderated by any Google employee. I believe it is by the users, for the users ;)

Regards 

--
Marko

[Nick Chirchirillo]

Did you actually read the responses here?

Google publicly admitted that it was their fault.  http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/gmail-back-soon-for-everyone.html

What Andy and Ryan said, which you apparently were too busy to actually read and process before forming your own response was that, they believe Google doesn't have anything coding in their system to tell users "We released a storage software update that introduced the unexpected bug, which caused 0.02% of Gmail users to temporarily lose access to their email. And because of that, we are disabling access to your account so that we can begin restoring the emails that were deleted."  It would make sense for them not to have something like that since this type of thing is very rare.  So, since they didn't have anything else, they used what they did have in order to prevent people from making changes to their accounts that would just be undone when the restore process was finished.  It just so happened that they only reason they DO have to revoke access to a Gmail account is because of abuse by the user.

--
Nick Chirchirillo
nickchich.com

[Zack (Doc)]

Marko,

You are right.  AFAIK, we don't even have any Google Employees on the mailing list.

Worth,

You have to keep in mind that anything we've said in here, is merely conjecture as to why that particular message is what the people received while their account was affected.  I'd like to believe that using that particular block, afforded the accounts a type of protection to make sure people's data was protected as they recovered from their problem.  There are other methods and messages that people get when there are problems, so I don't think their only pre-formed thought was the one you mention.

You also have to recall that GMail is a 20% project (if you don't know what that means, read up on how Google treats their employees).  That, likely, has an impact on what account "locking" options they have.

Zack

[Ference Robert]

My 2 cents...

Why in the world Google bury their response in a blog??

An error of this importance warrants much more effective response, like sending an email to every subscriber!

Bob

[Nick Chirchirillo]

Why would you bother the 99.98% of users that were not affected by this?

Even if they did send the email to the 0.02% of users that were affected, those users would not have known because their emails were deleted.  Google set up the blog and the Apps Dashboard as a way to tell every user when something is not working right.  If something is wrong with your account, check those two places first.  In fact, the latest blog post is always on the log in screen of Gmail, so I would hardly consider that "buried."

--
Nick Chirchirillo
nickchich.com

[Zack (Doc)]

My 4 cents... (I'm worth more :> )

It's not buried... that is Google's VERY public blog where they've posted updates, and information for quite a while.  It is *THE* place to get up to date information on the status and future of GMail.

In addition to what Nick said... only 0.02% of the users were affected, so that would mean by your method that 99.98% of all users are unaffected, and would have to get the message, and delete it.  As an unaffected user, I would hate to have that extra e-mail, especially considering the draw on the network and systems to deliver it, and the number of people forwarding it to all their friends "in case they didn't get it".  E-mail blasts are considered a particular type of evil by those of us in the business.

Also, the users affected had to be locked out of their accounts, so they wouldn't get the e-mail anyway.

[Marko Vukovic]

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Nick Chirchirillo <nick...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would you bother the 99.98% of users that were not affected by this?

Exactly.

If Gmail has ~100M users, 0.02% only accounts for around 20,000. Seeing as they did not lose any mails and we are getting IMO otherwise great uptime plus all the other fantastic features for FREE I don't really see how some people can be so bitter.

If you don't like it, vote with your feet and consider another provider.

Ciao
--
Marko

[Sarah]

Marko, you remembered the "M" in that post, I had a giggle at gmail's "100 users" in one of your earlier posts.
That aside, so many people are unaware of the apps status dashboard, and google's blog.
Any ideas for increasing profile & awareness among the millions of gmail users, other than regularly mentioning here?

[Ference Robert]

As I just replied to Nick,  you have to know about it to get the benefit you extoll.

It took me weeks of Googling before I "found" this place to discuss Gmail.

[Ference Robert]

duh?

did google know the number was 0.02%?

i get "bothered" all day by information which I deem junk.

I certainly could/would tolerate a non-sales message from my email supplier.

[Ference Robert]

I use GMAIL (and HOTMAIL, YAHOO) as appliances...almost commodity appliances.  I expect a straightforward communication from the service (E.G., GOOGLE), not some blog or backpage.  GMAIL serves me not as an alter, but as I way to get my email.  I look for that, not a link or marquee to the backwater of google.  Even the pathetic SKYPE help desk provides a trouble ticket, which despite its inadequacy, does provide an official TWO way communication channel.

Nothing personal here.  I am just thoroughly fed up with not being able to get timely accurate answers to my GMAIL questions from Google.  Sorry.

[Nick Chirchirillo]

Well, as the group name (Gmail USERS) we are simply users of Gmail.  We have no official connection to Google.  And if it also took you week to "find" the Gmail Blog, you should try looking at web pages that you use every day.  There is a link to the Gmail Blog at the bottom of any Gmail page, as will as a nice and big section of the log in page called "Latest news from Gmail."

You asked "did google know the number was 0.02%?" Yes, they did actually.  I quoted that percent DIRECTLY from the Gmail Blog post.

"I am just thoroughly fed up with not being able to get timely accurate answers to my GMAIL questions from Google."  I'm sorry, but Gmail is 100% free, as are most of the other things Google offers.  It is not feasible for them to provide a two-way communication outlet without charging users.  Skype does have a type of service you can pay for.  As does Yahoo and Hotmail.  Gmail does not.  It would not make any sense for Google to pay people to handle support issues for a product that they are giving away. 

--
Nick Chirchirillo
nickchich.com

[Marko Vukovic]

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Ference Robert <robert....@acm.org> wrote:

I use GMAIL (and HOTMAIL, YAHOO) as appliances...almost commodity appliances.  I expect a straightforward communication from the service (E.G., GOOGLE), not some blog or backpage.  GMAIL serves me not as an alter, but as I way to get my email.  I look for that, not a link or marquee to the backwater of google.  Even the pathetic SKYPE help desk provides a trouble ticket, which despite its inadequacy, does provide an official TWO way communication channel.

Ference

What is a commodity appliance? 

 

Nothing personal here.  I am just thoroughly fed up with not being able to get timely accurate answers to my GMAIL questions from Google.  Sorry.

Regardless, we are just users like you. It helps you none to rant here. 

Ciao
--
Marko

[Zack (Doc)]

Well, as has been said many times before.  As with any service, the best bet you can have is to vote with your feet.  If you are that fed up with GMail, then switch to another service and stop using it.  If enough people stop using it, they will have to change or stop offering the service.  If you want change, you have to work for it.

If another service works better, go there and enjoy the freedom of choice that you have.

[Ference Robert]

Agreed.

However, switching from one investment to another is time consuming and costly.

From my point of view, it is more cost effective to first argue for change.  Failing that (judging from this discussion group responses, I have), then "switching" is the only alternative.

[Ference Robert]

I've been reading this group's discussion threads for month or so.  I am NOT the only "ranter."  But I take your point.  Please take mine:  it is not constructive to spend time trying to 2nd guess Google.  Also, it is not constructive to defend Google when someone raises legit questions about their technology AND service.

I for one was not aware that GMAIL was officially an unsupported product.  I would have made a different decision re: email service had I known.

Some of you (in this discussion group) have quite a bit of information about Gmail & Google--some of it appears to me as "insider."  So don't brow beat me if I speak from a much less informed Gmail-Google point of view.  It would be more productive and constructive to educate me.

For the record:  I am a retired software professional who began his career in 1965.  I have seen and built well engineered software and poorly engineered software.  So I speak from nearly 50 years of experience.  Google produces some neat software.  With Gmail (albeit unsupported), it fails its community of users by deliberately excluding developers from the conversation.  

Bob

[Andy]

> I for one was not aware that GMAIL was officially an unsupported product.

Don't take my word on this ... but I'm not sure it is quite right to
say that Gmail is "unsupported". To me, that means it is a midnight
hack that Google doesn't stand behind. But perhaps my definition
doesn't match yours. Or Google's.

What it is, is free. And they have a non-free version of Gmail (known
by Google Apps and perhaps other names), where the user is entitled to
customer support from them.

But the free version, that most of us are using (probably because we
are 'cheapskates' and can't pass up a bargain), doesn't come with free
customer support. I believe Google told you this when you signed up
for it. They can't hold your hand for 200+ million users, for free.
It would be simply impossible.

It's hard to scoff at what you get. Free email delivery. 7.5GB of
storage, backed up. Spam filtering. IMAP and POP3. Good searching
and organizing. Good account security. A nice, evolving user
interface. All of this for FREE!

>  With Gmail (albeit unsupported), it fails its community of users
> by deliberately excluding developers from the conversation.

When Gmail was in its "Beta" phase, you/we were the Beta-testers. It
was expected that we would provide feedback to Google.

Google still has feedback paths where you can contribute to the
conversation, but it is of necessity rather limited, confined to not
much more than reporting bugs and voting on suggested improvements.
With just short of 7 years of Gmail experience, I think Google
probably feels it needs less in the way of feedback, from an
exponentially growing audience; so they can't provide the same
feedback mechanisms from all 200+ million of us.

The problem is, people seem to want/expect a phone number with someone
always there on the other end of it ... and that's simply not
possible. If you need that level of support, you should never
consider something you don't pay for.

A they say, TANSTAAFL.

Andy

[Ference Robert]

On Mar 9, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Andy wrote:

I for one was not aware that GMAIL was officially an unsupported product.

Don't take my word on this ... but I'm not sure it is quite right to
say that Gmail is "unsupported".  To me, that means it is a midnight
hack that Google doesn't stand behind.  But perhaps my definition

doesn't match yours.  (Unsupported means the developer is not systematically fixing bugs and providing new features.  If there is no clear channel for bug reporting (and acknowledgment) or any clear mechanism for generating & discussing feature sets, then its not supported)  Or Google's.

What it is, is free.  And they have a non-free version of Gmail (known
by Google Apps and perhaps other names), where the user is entitled to

customer support from them.  (I am aware this is free software, but not unsupported.  I am not aware that there is a pay-for-use Gmail version.  I am more than happy to pay for support)

But the free version, that most of us are using (probably because we
are 'cheapskates' and can't pass up a bargain), doesn't come with free
customer support.  I believe Google told you this when you signed up
for it.  They can't hold your hand for 200+ million users, for free.

It would be simply impossible.  (Again, I am not whining for hand holds.  I am looking for legit Google authorized and supported channels of communication to/from Gmail land where I can ask other than the how to questions you all seem to think I'm wanting.  What little I've seen Google help files, this how to stuff is all I can expect.  

Example:  I picked the theme, "Silver Lining" or maybe "Contrast Black" that had a bug--replied email under circumstances I've now forgotten displayed black type in the reply body AND against black background for the same.  There is nowhere on the Gmail screen I can report this bug, or even engage in a discussion of why it is the way it is.  

Example:  I came over to Gmail from Apple Mail.  In Apple Mail, addressing a group of people by typing the name of the group to which they belong in the To: field, shows by default, the email address of every recipient in the group.  Optionally,  the email is sent to each recipient with the group name in the To: field.  This convent when groups have hundreds of members.  How do I do this in Gmail?  All I could find is a help file entry describing the way contact groups are handle--which I already knew!  Where was the channel to ask why it works this way, or the channel to request it be changed ??

It's hard to scoff at what you get.  Free email delivery.  7.5GB of
storage, backed up.  Spam filtering.  IMAP and POP3.  Good searching
and organizing.  Good account security.  A nice, evolving user
interface.  All of this for FREE!

 With Gmail (albeit unsupported), it fails its community of users

by deliberately excluding developers from the conversation.

When Gmail was in its "Beta" phase, you/we were the Beta-testers.  It

was expected that we would provide feedback to Google. (I, unlike most of this discussion group, was not here from day -1)

Google still has feedback paths where you can contribute to the
conversation, but it is of necessity rather limited, confined to not
much more than reporting bugs and voting on suggested improvements.
With just short of 7 years of Gmail experience, I think Google

probably feels it needs less (in my opinion, thats just business arrogance)in the way of feedback, from an

exponentially growing audience; so they can't provide the same
feedback mechanisms from all 200+ million of us.

The problem is, people seem to want/expect a phone number with someone

always there on the other end of it (again, NOT what I want or need)... and that's simply not

possible.  If you need that level of support, you should never
consider something you don't pay for.

A they say, TANSTAAFL.

Andy

[Nick Chirchirillo]

No new features?  I guess this page is just full of lies then http://mail.google.com/mail/help/about_whatsnew.html

No clear channel for bug reporting? I guess this page doesn't exist either http://mail.google.com/support/bin/request.py?contact_type=contact_policy

Oh, and so you know, I got to both of those pages from clicking the "Help" link.  I know, crazy place to look for solutions right?

--
Nick Chirchirillo
nickchich.com