How to stop Gmail displaying primary address when sending from other account?

[01steven]

I have numerous email addresses which I'm managing in my main Gmail
account.
It all works well, but I've discovered that when I send from one of
the other accounts, when the recipient opens it, in the 'From'
section, it shows my address as being:

[email address] on behalf of Steven Mills [[email address]]

(where [email address]' is the main email address associated with
the gmail account, and [email address]' is the other external
account)

In other words, even though I'm sending from a non-Gmail account,
because it's going through Gmail the recipient is made aware of this.

Is there any way round this? I'm almost positive there's nothing in
the settings- what about some script or add-on/plug-in for Firefox
(which is my browser)?

Any help gratefully required.
Regards
Steven Mills

[Zack (Doc)]

When you send e-mail GMail sets a header attribute "Sender"
https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=20616

Some e-mail clients, wrongly, use this field for the "on behalf of"
type setting, which is not the purpose. The purpose, and why GMail is
setting it, is to aid receiving systems in spam detection. Normally
you want your from address "yourdomain.com" to match a legal address
of the sending system "gmail.com". Since they don't, "Sender" is
included to show that you are a legal sender from the "gmail.com"
domain. This should prevent systems from marking your message as
spam.

There are a couple ways you can "get around this" but it's not well advised.

1) Use POP/SMTP. Then you can send with your domain, and "Sender"
will not be added (as far as I know).

2) Use Google Apps for your domain. This is a separate account, so it
doesn't set the "Sender" field.

[01steven]

Thanks for your reply.
Please can you explain your option 2 about Google Apps?
Regards

On Sep 4, 6:15 pm, "Zack (Doc)" <z...@tnan.net> wrote:
> When you send e-mail GMail sets a header attribute "Sender"https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=20616
>
> Some e-mail clients, wrongly, use this field for the "on behalf of"
> type setting, which is not the purpose. The purpose, and why GMail is
> setting it, is to aid receiving systems in spam detection. Normally
> you want your from address "yourdomain.com" to match a legal address
> of the sending system "gmail.com". Since they don't, "Sender" is
> included to show that you are a legal sender from the "gmail.com"
> domain. This should prevent systems from marking your message as
> spam.
>
> There are a couple ways you can "get around this" but it's not well advised.
>
> 1) Use POP/SMTP. Then you can send with your domain, and "Sender"
> will not be added (as far as I know).
>
> 2) Use Google Apps for your domain. This is a separate account, so it
> doesn't set the "Sender" field.
>

[Zack (Doc)]

Not any better than Google can:
http://www.google.com/a/

Basically, if you own the domain, you can register with Google to
provide you services for your domain, which includes e-mail (GMail
accounts) and many other Google services. Read ahead at the link for
the best explanations.

[01steven]

Thanks for that- very useful indeed.
Regards

On Sep 6, 6:44 pm, "Zack (Doc)" <z...@tnan.net> wrote:
> Not any better than Google can:http://www.google.com/a/
>
> Basically, if you own the domain, you can register with Google to
> provide you services for your domain, which includes e-mail (GMail
> accounts) and many other Google services. Read ahead at the link for
> the best explanations.
>

[renel...@gmail.com]

Does this work with alias domains as well?

[geek]

Yes aliases are supported, see here:

http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?answer=53295&hl=en

On Sep 17, 3:39 am, "reneluc...@gmail.com" <reneluc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > > > > > Steven Mills- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[skyline5k]

I tried both on my google apps accounts, hoping to run a company email
address through my personal address, both of the same domain
registered at google apps, but hoping not to need a 2nd login (or if I
do, accessible through pop) and keeping my clients unaware of my
personal address. Both still tag on the "On Behalf Of" part. Perhaps
I missed a step?

Cheers,

Eric

[skyline5k]

Another question: Do ALL versions of google apps do this? or is it
only the free one? I'm not against moving up to premier as soon as the
business grows a bit & I get a few more employees and such. But I
also don't want google's financial department saying, "See? They'll
pay for it!"

Now that I think of it, I should reword it a bit. Does MICROSOFT DO
THIS to all versions of Google Apps... I suppose may be more
appropriate.

Cheers!

Eric

On Oct 5, 8:27 am, geek <denverge...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ryan Morehart]

Yes, Outlook does this regardless. Since you want to only have one login, I would personally use the company account primarily and have the personal one forward to it. Your personal contacts probably won't care if it says "on behalf of" your company's address.

Ryan

[Zack (Doc)]

Here you hit the nail on the head... It is Microsoft doing this by
choosing to violate Internet standards, and adopt something for their
own purposes. This is annoying for everyone, but you should realize
it's really just a minor cosmetic thing. If someone is using an MS
product to read your mail and they see "From: a...@add.com On Behalf Of
b...@another.com" and they click reply, it will still go to the
"b...@another.com" address. Sure they've "seen" that you're really on
"a...@add.com" but this won't matter to most people.

That said... You shouldn't have this problem with Google Apps, Free or
otherwise, as long as you're following some simple rules.

The reason MS is doing this, is cause Google is properly using the
"Sender" header entry (which MS thinks they own and have co-opted for
their own uses). Google only sets the "Sender" header entry when you
use a Web Interface (so your POP idea works, IMAP might as well, but I
don't know), to generate a message where the "From" address does not
match the account you logged into. So if you have 2 accounts in the
same domain, when you send from the account you're logged into, there
should be no "Sender" header, but if you use a "Custom From" to
duplicate the "From" from the other account, you should get "Sender"
again, and MS will put "On Behalf Of".

So... you prevent people with MS from ever seeing "On Behalf Of" you
must log into each account when you are going to send "From" that
address. If you're using a program to POP your mail to your local PC
and composing from there, that program would create the headers, and
therefore, probably never add the "Sender" tag.

On 11/2/07, skyline5k <gen...@terascape.net> wrote:
>

[Eric Jones]

I was afraid of that.  I was hoping there was a trick to go around the microsoft thing.  While it's cosmetic, I'm rather a stickler about stuff like that.  Since I'm in China, EVERYONE uses MS Office 2003 (mostly bootleg, as piracy is rampant here). Guess I'll log into the other account if I have business to take care of.

Thanks, Microsoft... this is why I continue to slowly push toward open source.

[Eric Jones]

Sounds like the best bet. Cheers, Ryan & Zack! 

Anyone know exactly where the "in behalf of" shows up? Is it just outlook/outlook express 2003?  Or does it include 2007, hotmail, yahoo mail or anyplace else?  Thunderbird, Evolution for Linux?  Just wondering now if the sender/x-sender thing is a larger problem.

Eric


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[Zack (Doc)]

Another option is for you to use Outlook yourself (or other POP
client). Then your client sets the header, and GMail won't (I'm told)
add the "Sender" field. This does make you more subscepible to being
caught by people's spam filters (the real reason behind the "Sender"
tag), but it will keep it clean.

Otherwise, you've got it, login to whichever account you want to send
from. Like Ryan said, perhaps use your business one primarily, and
"friends" won't mind if your e-mail to them says "From: business@mail
On Behalf Of personal@mail".

[Zack (Doc)]

AFAIK It's only the MS desktop clients. I'm just checked in Hotmail
and Yahoo, and they display the proper from address. GMail also
displays the proper from address :)

On 11/2/07, Eric Jones <gen...@terascape.net> wrote:

[renel...@gmail.com]

Well, it completely killed my GMail account for company use, if they'd
use the X-sender header instead we wouldn't have this problem. I just
realized today that even Alias domains on google apps do this, which
is just stupid as gmail is actually the mailserver for the system, it
makes no sense. When your sender e-mail address is on gmail servers it
really shouldn't do this! Alternatively they could let us add extra
SMTP servers for sender addresses, all I really want is all my mail in
one gmail inbox and to be able to answer it all from that one
account.

If you google this problem it really shows that IT IS A PROBLEM,
hotmail and yahoo does NOT do this.

And even though it might be microsoft that's the idiots, it really
doesn't change the fact that GMail is realisticly the program that
needs to fix this.

[Zack (Doc)]

You're completely missing the point.

The WORLD COMMUNITY decided YEARS AGO what "Sender" was for, and
that's it's purpose. X-Sender is *NOT* for that purpose, so if GMail
would "use the X-sender header instead" we'd compound one misuse with
another.

I've just confirmed (again??? I've done this dozens of times) that
when I send an e-mail from an account I've created on GAfYD that there
is *NO* Sender header field, so what you're saying is wrong. The only
way I can get a Sender header is by using an address that I'm not
currently logged into.

GMail should not fix the problems of Microsoft, especially when the
practical upshot is that MS's inappropriate use of the header results
in no functional loss of use, but only a cosmetic appearance.
Remember, that even MS users who get "From: real...@gmail.com On
Behalf Of secon...@thisdomain.com" will send the replies back
"To:secon...@thisdomain.com" when they click "Reply". All that's
happened is that they've *SEEN* your GMail address. If it's soooo
important that you **HIDE** your real address, you need to get your
own private SMTP server (like spammers do) and send EVERYTHING from
behind that (like spammers do), so your header can read exactly the
way you want it to (like spammers do). Just remember that this will
cause your messages to sometimes get caught by spam filters (like
spammers do).

[Marc]

I just want to add in:

I just switched domain hosts from Yahoo to a much more cost effective
host (should have done that long ago). All my emails, on multiple
domains hosted through Yahoo showed up in one inbox with Yahoo Web
Mail. For some of us sending email from the address we want to send it
from, may be an anal, but Yahoo let me do that on Multiple domains,
multiple emails and did not show @yahoo.com unless I sent via POP.

I had a Gmail account, love to power of iGoogle and everything I've
associated with my Gmail account. So when I switched hosts, I just
added Google Apps to manage emails@mydomains. Urh!!!

I have to (annoyingly) scan my spam emails before deleting. I've made
$1,000's on email leads for jobs I would not have got if I did not
scan my spam folder. As well other emails that I want, occasionally
ended up in (at least Yahoo's) spam filters. I've learned not to trust
spam filters. I'm not in the business of spamming via mass emailing, I
am an entertainer. Some email I want does come from people who
"shamelessly promote" themselves and are ignorant of blacklist
filters.

Now I have 1 Gmail account and 6 GmailApps @mydomain email accounts to
cover my existing email addresses. The "fetch" thing in Gmail ain't
working. The forwarding does and I got all 6 Google Apps forwarded to
my Gmail. I can live with having a "reply to address" BUT what is a
real PITA now is (if I stay with Google Domain Apps thingy) I will
have to scan spam in 6 Gmail accounts periodically. Gmail does not
forward spam and that's a good thing for most everybody except me.

I'm sold on iGoogle and all the very usefull things Google offers in
one place, except this 1 thing.

I just tinkered with all I could in settings, read a few blogs and
groups like this one and am left wondering what to do. I'm locked with
my Gmail email but I don't know what I'm going to do with mydomain
emails that will also give me access via Web, Mobile & Outlook. I am
so looking forward to IMAP but just don't know.

I just want it all in one inbox.

On Nov 8, 7:17 am, "Zack (Doc)" <z...@tnan.net> wrote:
> You're completely missing the point.
>
> The WORLD COMMUNITY decided YEARS AGO what "Sender" was for, and
> that's it's purpose. X-Sender is *NOT* for that purpose, so ifGMail
> would "use the X-sender header instead" we'd compound one misuse with
> another.
>
> I've just confirmed (again??? I've done this dozens of times) that
> when I send an e-mail from an account I've created on GAfYD that there
> is *NO* Sender header field, so what you're saying is wrong. The only
> way I can get a Sender header is by using an address that I'm not
> currently logged into.
>

> GMailshould not fix the problems of Microsoft, especially when the

> practical upshot is that MS's inappropriate use of the header results
> in no functional loss of use, but only a cosmetic appearance.

> Remember, that even MS users who get "From: realn...@gmail.com On
> Behalf Of seconda...@thisdomain.com" will send the replies back
> "To:seconda...@thisdomain.com" when they click "Reply". All that's
> happened is that they've *SEEN* yourGMailaddress. If it's soooo

> important that you **HIDE** your real address, you need to get your
> own private SMTP server (like spammers do) and send EVERYTHING from
> behind that (like spammers do), so your header can read exactly the
> way you want it to (like spammers do). Just remember that this will
> cause your messages to sometimes get caught by spam filters (like
> spammers do).
>

> On 11/8/07, reneluc...@gmail.com <reneluc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well, it completely killed myGMailaccount for company use, if they'd

> > use the X-sender header instead we wouldn't have this problem. I just

> > realized today that even Alias domains on googleappsdo this, which
> > is just stupid asgmailis actually the mailserver for the system, it
> > makes no sense. When your sender e-mail address is ongmailservers it

> > really shouldn't do this! Alternatively they could let us add extra
> > SMTP servers for sender addresses, all I really want is all my mail in

> > onegmailinbox and to be able to answer it all from that one

> > account.
>
> > If you google this problem it really shows that IT IS A PROBLEM,
> > hotmail and yahoo does NOT do this.
>
> > And even though it might be microsoft that's the idiots, it really

> > doesn't change the fact thatGMailis realisticly the program that
> > needs to fix this.- Hide quoted text -

[jerry hostasek]

the fetch ihing from gmail works on Yahoo and a couple others but
I'm having problems fetching my hotmail can some one lead a old
computer guy through the system of installing something to do
itplease

[granny58]

lot of "reply to author" in this thread..has anyone considered the
obvious solution to the problem?
how about inconveniencing yourself enough to actually GO to the other
email address and compose and send the message from there, getting the
return address you want and also, since you have to really log into an
account to keep it active, this is the op to do that and clear out
things like spam etc.

[Marc]

Thanks,

Shortly after I wrote that post I did some more tinkering and got the
fetch feature in Gmail to work between Gmail and Google App email
accounts. I compared "fetch" to forward". IMHO there is no big
difference between the two other then forward works faster so that's
what I decided to use from my Google App accounts (mydomain emails) to
my main Gmail.

I set up IMAP today and WOW I'm impressed. I had a bad experience
years ago trying to use Hotmail with MS Outlook with IMAP or
something, so I was hesitant. I set IMAP from my main Gmail to MS
Outlook 2007 and it's great! I set IMAP up on my AT&T Tilt phone with
Win Mobile 6 and IMO Mobile Gmail wins. There is to much navigating in
WM6 and I still have to tinker with the settings to get it to work
correctly.

My previous email routine was: collect all emails in Yahoo Web Mail. I
would do some deleting, writing and scan/empty spam folder. Every few
days I would move all my sent mail on Yahoo Web Mail to the Yahoo
Inbox and then bring every thing into MS Outlook for long term
archive. I had to make sure spam folder was empty just before hitting
send/receive. Part of my thinking was to keep spam emails on Yahoo and
never let them sit in Outlook on my HD.

OMG IMAP with Gmail and MS Outlook is so much easier. Folders and
Labels line up real nice. Not to mention the majority of my spam
emails are staying in the Google Apps accounts and do not get
forwarded to my main gmail account.

I set up IMAP for emails@mydomains within outlook. Since the spam
emails in this case did end up on my computer and I'm not using these
accounts to organize any emails I turned off IMAP. I went with POP3
for these in MS Outlook 2007 so can send from MS Outlook with the
actual from being the email I want and it's not a reply to address. I
could not do that with Yahoo, everything I sent from Outlook was from
@yahoo.com with a different reply address.

- In MS Outlook I have everything in one place, which is a bonus for
my working style and makes me feel better about the money I spent on
Office 2007.

- From my cell phone I'm still thinking Gmail mobile is better the WM
6 Outlook, but at least I got options. I can set a POP3 for
emails@mydomains if I want. Emails send from Gmail mobile browser do
not get a different reply to mail address.

-I'd still love for all my emails to be combined in one Gmail account
BUT I can live with it.

It seems like in my switch from and comparison to Yahoo Web Email
(upgraded with Pop access) I'm left with an equal amount of PITA tasks
when dealing with email alone. It's just different clicks to slightly
annoy me. But adding in the power of all the Google Appications
(Analytics, Blogger, YouTube, GReader, etc...) I have associated with
my Gmail account, Google beats Yahoo hands down IMHO.

I just hope Gmails spam filter system is better then Yahoo. I hate
scanning spam.

Does anyone know if it's the same type of system? I presume email
address's (and or IP's) get blacklisted in Yahoo based on Yahoo users
clicking "mark as spam". Does Google rely on Gmail users to mark what
is and what is not spam? If so I think the Gmail user base should be a
little more savvy then Yahoo and less real email will end up in the
spam folder.

On Nov 23, 10:56 am, "jerry hostasek" <hostas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the fetch ihing from gmail works on Yahoo and a couple others but
> I'm having problems fetching my hotmail can some one lead a old
> computer guy through the system of installing something to do
> itplease
>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Omegatron]

On Nov 2, 6:29 am, "Zack (Doc)" <z...@tnan.net> wrote:
> Here you hit the nail on the head... It is Microsoft doing this by
> choosing to violate Internet standards, and adopt something for their
> own purposes. This is annoying for everyone, but you should realize
> it's really just a minor cosmetic thing.

No no no. This is a problem with Gmail, not Microsoft, and this is
not necessarily a "minor cosmetic thing".

When you are logged into Gmail and send an email from another account,
Google sends it out from their own Gmail servers. They use the "From"
and "Sender" fields to make this clear, and this is correct, they are
following standards in the process.

BUT, they don't make it clear to you as a user that they are doing
this. Just because Microsoft shows it in their replies doesn't mean
the problem is exclusive to Microsoft. The email address you are
logged into is ALWAYS in your headers, and is being sent to everyone
you send email to. If you keep your email addresses and usernames
seperate (job searching account, personal real name account, school
account, embarassing mailing list account), Gmail is exposing them
without your knowledge or permission, which can be either a "minor
cosmetic issue" or a major privacy problem, depending on how you use
email. I've known at least three people who have run into trouble
with this (job searching and school emails), and I have myself as
well.

There are two things that Google needs to fix:

1. When you are logged into a Gmail account, and send an email from
another Gmail account, there is no reason to add these headers. The
sending server is the same in either case.
2. Like Outlook or any other email program, Gmail should allow you to
enter server information for your other accounts, instead of just
sending it from their own servers. So you would enter your school's
SMTP server and password, and when you send an email from your school
address, it would be sent from their servers. Then they wouldn't need
to add the headers for this either.

[Ryan Morehart]

On Dec 13, 2007 11:50 AM, Omegatron <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are two things that Google needs to fix:

1. When you are logged into a Gmail account, and send an email from
another Gmail account, there is no reason to add these headers.  The
sending server is the same in either case.

There is a need. If Gmail did not add the header many spam programs would recognize that the from email address given and the sending server did not match and flag it as spam. If they want to get rid of it they would have to do as you suggested in your second item.

Ryan

[Zack (Doc)]

On Dec 13, 2007 11:50 AM, Omegatron <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> No no no. This is a problem with Gmail, not Microsoft, and this is
> not necessarily a "minor cosmetic thing".
>
> When you are logged into Gmail and send an email from another account,
> Google sends it out from their own Gmail servers. They use the "From"
> and "Sender" fields to make this clear, and this is correct, they are
> following standards in the process.

No disagreements there.

> BUT, they don't make it clear to you as a user that they are doing

They don't point it out in giant flashing letters, but they are not
hiding it. It is clearly stated in at least two different help pages
related to custom from addresses that they do this; per the standards,
and why they are doing it.

> this. Just because Microsoft shows it in their replies doesn't mean
> the problem is exclusive to Microsoft. The email address you are

A, they don't show it in the replies, they show it in their short
headers. When a Microsoft user clicks reply, it will only fill in the
proper address, and have no reference to the GMail address in that
header.
B, true that it's not EXCLUSIVE to Microsoft, but MS (client software
not their Hotmail BTW) is the only client highlighting this point for
people.

> logged into is ALWAYS in your headers, and is being sent to everyone

Uh... yeah, you logged into it, it's a verified connection, why
shouldn't it be sent?!?

> you send email to. If you keep your email addresses and usernames
> seperate (job searching account, personal real name account, school
> account, embarassing mailing list account), Gmail is exposing them
> without your knowledge or permission, which can be either a "minor
> cosmetic issue" or a major privacy problem, depending on how you use

A, "without your knowledge", would only be because you failed to read
the information provided; and,
B, "without your permission" is completely false, cause you chose to
use a service and it's performing exactly as advertised. If you want
to "give your permission" for something like that, use a different
service that performs differently.
Since *YOU* chose to use a service that works like this, and YOU chose
to send this message (which NEVER claims to HIDE your address), then
it can't be a "major privacy issue". If you have a privacy issue, use
a system that promises to HIDE the information you want hidden.

> There are two things that Google needs to fix:
>
> 1. When you are logged into a Gmail account, and send an email from
> another Gmail account, there is no reason to add these headers. The
> sending server is the same in either case.

I could agree with this point, and think that's an excellent
suggestion for you to send to Google on your next suggestion
submission.

> 2. Like Outlook or any other email program, Gmail should allow you to
> enter server information for your other accounts, instead of just
> sending it from their own servers. So you would enter your school's
> SMTP server and password, and when you send an email from your school
> address, it would be sent from their servers. Then they wouldn't need
> to add the headers for this either.

There's the rub... GMail isn't an email "program" like Outlook.
That's a SIGNIFICANT difference to note. But first to your
"suggestion" to change the way GMail sends these messages.

When a client program (like Outlook) sends a message through a
different SMTP server, it is a unique connection, with message
origination there. Often these servers require authentication of at
least a basic IP level, as in they come from a known IP address range,
like a campus network.

When another SMTP server (like GMail's) sends a message through a
different SMTP server, it is called SMTP-RELAY, which most servers do
not allow, and even when they do, it's considered bad practice, and
frowned upon in the Internet community. This is why GMail cannot do
as you suggest.

NOW... if you happen to read your GMail in an e-mail client... That
client can send your alternate e-mail through alternate servers as you
suggest, to get the effect you're looking for. ALSO... even still
using the GMail SMTP servers, your client forms the header, and
therefore you won't have the "Sender" field unless your client adds
it. THEREFORE, this is only a problem when you use "Custom From"
addresses and you wish to HIDE your true account information, and you
choose to use the webmail interface. I'd say the solution is that if
the first two are the case for you, then you should not choose to use
the webmail interface for those messages.

[Omegatron]

On Dec 13, 1:24 pm, "Ryan Morehart" <moreh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a need. If Gmail did not add the header many spam programs would
> recognize that the from email address given and the sending server did not
> match and flag it as spam. If they want to get rid of it they would have to
> do as you suggested in your second item.

Except in the case I am talking about, the email server (gmail.com)
and the sending server (gmail.com) would be THE SAME. So no, there is
no need for these headers.

[Omegatron]

On Dec 13, 2:30 pm, "Zack (Doc)" <z...@tnan.net> wrote:
> They don't point it out in giant flashing letters,

They need to, when you're setting up multiple accounts. Putting it on
a help page that no one will read until *after* they discover the
problem is not good enough.

> Uh... yeah, you logged into it, it's a verified connection, why
> shouldn't it be sent?!?

Because it's not the address I'm using.

> A, "without your knowledge", would only be because you failed to read
> the information provided

You read through every help document and discussion on a web service
before using it?

> B, "without your permission" is completely false, cause you chose to
> use a service and it's performing exactly as advertised. If you want
> to "give your permission" for something like that, use a different
> service that performs differently.
> Since *YOU* chose to use a service that works like this, and YOU chose
> to send this message (which NEVER claims to HIDE your address), then
> it can't be a "major privacy issue". If you have a privacy issue, use
> a system that promises to HIDE the information you want hidden.

Why in the world would a typical user expect an email to expose the
address I happen to be *logged into*, when that address has nothing to
do with the message I am sending? This is not obvious at all and I'm
certain that most people don't even know it's happening until an
Outlook recipient adds it to the visible reply header.

> I could agree with this point, and think that's an excellent
> suggestion for you to send to Google on your next suggestion
> submission.

I have several times. Other people need to mention it before they'll
start noticing.

> There's the rub... GMail isn't an email "program" like Outlook.

It should be. A typical webmail interface only sends from one email
address. Google Mail tries to be more like an email *program*, that
lets you send and receive from multiple addresses all in the same
interface, but it's a flawed emulation because of the way it sends and
uses headers.

> When a client program (like Outlook) sends a message through a
> different SMTP server, it is a unique connection, with message
> origination there. Often these servers require authentication of at
> least a basic IP level, as in they come from a known IP address range,
> like a campus network.
>
> When another SMTP server (like GMail's) sends a message through a
> different SMTP server, it is called SMTP-RELAY, which most servers do
> not allow, and even when they do, it's considered bad practice, and
> frowned upon in the Internet community. This is why GMail cannot do
> as you suggest.

Gmail should connect in the same way I would normally connect from my
email client.

[Ryan Morehart]

On Dec 28, 2007 2:41 AM, Omegatron <omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When a client program (like Outlook) sends a message through a
> > different SMTP server, it is a unique connection, with message
> > origination there. Often these servers require authentication of at
> > least a basic IP level, as in they come from a known IP address range,
> > like a campus network.
> >
> > When another SMTP server (like GMail's) sends a message through a
> > different SMTP server, it is called SMTP-RELAY, which most servers do
> > not allow, and even when they do, it's considered bad practice, and
> > frowned upon in the Internet community. This is why GMail cannot do
> > as you suggest.
>
> Gmail should connect in the same way I would normally connect from my
> email client.

I won't argue with most of your stuff, as it's a preference thing, but
Gmail *can't* send the exact same way a desktop client would because
of the pseudo-login restrictions virtually all SMTP servers have. As
Zach noted, most servers, particularly ISP and corporate ones, require
that the connections to them are coming from a known IP range. This is
fine for a desktop client, as it will likely be connecting from a
relatively static location.

In the case of a web-based email though, if the SMTP connection is
established by the client-side half of Gmail then the fact that the
email is likely to be accessed from virtually anywhere causes problems
as the person could only send email through some alternate addresses
when they are connected to a certain network. If the connection to the
foreign SMTP server is established from Google's servers as though it
where a normal desktop client, then the problem would be even worse,
as it would be impossible for some messages to _ever_ be sent (Google
doesn't have servers on your company's network).

In either case, Google doesn't want to explain to people why sending
only works occasionally, under very specific situations. They have
instead chosen to take the, IMHO, more correct route where they make
it "just work." Only an arguably non-standards compliant email client
breaks this in any fashion, and the "break" really isn't overly
painful as long as you realize it exists.

Ryan

[Kadhumia Flo]

My business was ruined because of this.

Why can't the Sender field be the custom address, isnt the mailbox
shared between many email addresses? hence gmail is able to put any of
the mailboxes aliases in the Sender field. gmail should have told us
that our main address isnt private because even if microsoft didn't do
the "on behalf thing", gmail is sending private information in the
headers that we didn't know was going.

[Zack (Doc)]

Excerpts from RFC822:
Section 4.4.2. SENDER / RESENT-SENDER

This field contains the authenticated identity of the AGENT
(person, system or process) that sends the message. It is
intended for use when the sender is not the author of the mes-
sage, or to indicate who among a group of authors actually
sent the message. If the contents of the "Sender" field would
be completely redundant with the "From" field, then the
"Sender" field need not be present and its use is discouraged
(though still legal). In particular, the "Sender" field MUST
be present if it is NOT the same as the "From" Field.

The two key points here are that the Sender *MUST* be present if it's
not the same as From, and it must contain the *AUTHENTICATED IDENTITY*
of the "AGENT that sends the message".

The Sender field cannot be the custom address, because you did not
authenticate your identity at that address. When you performed the
initial add, you authenticated the AUTHORITY to use it, but that is
not the same as authenticating identity. When you log into your GMail
account you're authenticating your identity.

I still don't understand how a business can be ruined because of this.
Embarrassed perhaps, but considering there are better ways of doing
what people are trying to do by "hiding" their information, this
should be minor. And I'm sorry, but as soon as I hit Send up above, I
can consider NOTHING associated with this message as private anymore;
from my real name, or custom address, to the IP of the machine that's
sending it (being a GMail server, they don't need *MY* IP, I'm
authenticated to the server). The best I can hope for is to limit
it's dissemination to only appropriate parties.

[Kadhumia Flo]

Thanks Zach for your message.

Actually I should of said deeply affected until know because I lost
one of my main customers - it complex.

You said:
The Sender field cannot be the custom address, because you did not
authenticate your identity at that address. When you performed the
initial add, you authenticated the AUTHORITY to use it, but that is
not the same as authenticating identity. When you log into your GMail
account you're authenticating your identity.

Before you can send mail as gee_u...@hotmail.om, we need to verify
that you own this email address. To perform the verification click
"Send Verification". We will then send an email to *** with
instructions on how to verify your address.

So the owner has been verified as ourselves.

If you still do not agree, could you please add more security measures
like changing the SPF record or something to enable the Sender to
change as it's a great feature that I need (I actually use Google
Apps) - not just for me, but for my employees where my business has
also been affected by their sent emails.

Ali

[nick...@gmail.com]

Well that's what you get for using a free email service that is still
in beta for your business needs. Common sense should have told you not
to use GMail for professional uses

[Zack (Doc)]

Actually that's an improper statement by Google there. All you've
really verified is that you have ACCESS to that account, and can
read/click links to messages received there. I can do the same for my
wife and son's accounts but I don't "own" them...

That said... re-read what I wrote. You've authenticated authority to
send messages from there, but you're not authenticating identity;
evidenced by my statement above that I can access my wife's account,
but I don't own it, and aren't proving it EACH TIME I log into GMail.
The only thing I'm proving each time I log into GMail is that I have
access to the GMail account, and that I am probably the person who
owns it.

Further to the point. There are a couple addresses that my wife, son,
and I share as custom from addresses. Mail sent TO these addresses
actually get delivered to each of us, but only one of us is a sender
at a time. This is essentially what the purpose of the Sender field
is.

GMail can't change the SPF record of any domain not under their
control, so no they couldn't change the SPF record of hotmail.com to
allow them to send with that custom from address without adding
sender. In fact, because of SPF records, many mail services would
reject mail that originated from GMail servers with a from of hotmail,
WITHOUT the sender header. So your comment about SPF records just
goes to show WHY they MUST include a Sender field, and what it must
read.

Additionally... you mention Google Apps. Google Apps does have you
set an SPF record, and does NOT send a "Sender" field when you send
from the account you're logged into. I've done this myself. I don't
understand how this is affecting you.

I also still don't understand the customer who stops giving you
business because they receive an e-mail from:
"trusted...@business.com On Behalf Of user...@gmail.com". If
they're freaked out by the gmail.com part, their a) naive, and b) need
to do business in person instead of e-mail because their concerns
SHOULD be bigger than the domain in use.

[bkennelly]

Google apps also adds the "Sender" header if you use a "Send As"
address, but the value is the Google Apps account address, not
a ...@gmail.com address.

> "trustedpart...@business.com On Behalf Of usern...@gmail.com". If

> they're freaked out by the gmail.com part, their a) naive, and b) need
> to do business in person instead of e-mail because their concerns
> SHOULD be bigger than the domain in use.
>

> On Jan 2, 2008 3:47 PM, Kadhumia Flo <kadhumia....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks Zach for your message.
>
> > Actually I should of said deeply affected until know because I lost
> > one of my main customers - it complex.
>
> > You said:
> > The Sender field cannot be the custom address, because you did not
> > authenticate your identity at that address. When you performed the
> > initial add, you authenticated the AUTHORITY to use it, but that is
> > not the same as authenticating identity. When you log into your GMail
> > account you're authenticating your identity.
>

> > Before you can send mail as gee_uk2...@hotmail.om, we need to verify

[Zack (Doc)]

Which is why I said...

> > Additionally... you mention Google Apps. Google Apps does have you
> > set an SPF record, and does NOT send a "Sender" field when you send
> > from the account you're logged into. I've done this myself. I don't

[Kadhumia Flo]

Thanks Zach for the reply.
As I said, i use google apps, and it was more like
myn...@mybusiness.com on behalf of custome...@anotherbusiness.com
when i thought i was sending from custome...@anotherbusiness.com
and that was the problem (big problem)

Anyway, as for SPF, of course i do not mean Hotmail.com, however what
i mean is domains that you own. Like in the above example, i own
mybusiness.com and anotherbusiness.com and I am the owner of both
email addresses. So it would be nice to be able to verify that you own
the email address.

As a suggestion, you can have 2 options when adding a customer
address:
1) You own this account
2) You have access to that account

When they click that they own this account, you could then gmail can
do all the extra security measures that you wish to do (e.g. "Let the
domain name admin verify this by adding a temporary SPF record" or "We
will send an email to postmaster@the-domain-of-your-new-custom-
email.com to verify that you own it".

Thanks again

Ali

> "trustedpart...@business.com On Behalf Of usern...@gmail.com". If

> they're freaked out by the gmail.com part, their a) naive, and b) need
> to do business in person instead of e-mail because their concerns
> SHOULD be bigger than the domain in use.
>

> On Jan 2, 2008 3:47 PM, Kadhumia Flo <kadhumia....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks Zach for your message.
>
> > Actually I should of said deeply affected until know because I lost
> > one of my main customers - it complex.
>
> > You said:
> > The Sender field cannot be the custom address, because you did not
> > authenticate your identity at that address. When you performed the
> > initial add, you authenticated the AUTHORITY to use it, but that is
> > not the same as authenticating identity. When you log into your GMail
> > account you're authenticating your identity.
>

> > Before you can send mail as gee_uk2...@hotmail.om, we need to verify

[Kadhumia Flo]

For the above, I wrote "when adding a customer address", I actually
meant "when adding a custom address"

[dave]

make the problem known. google might find a "fix" if enough people
find a problem with this
http://digg.com/tech_news/Gmail_shows_primary_email_when_managing_multiple_accounts

[Kadhumia Flo]

Does Zach work for Google?

If not, then how else can we contact Google.

[Ryan Morehart]

Despite his extreme knowledge, Zach is not admitting that he works at
Google. You can use the official Gmail Google Group
(http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Discussion) or you could
use the many "contact us" links sprinkled throughout the help pages,
mostly when you reach the end of a troubleshooter.

Ryan

On Jan 15, 2008 10:53 AM, Kadhumia Flo <kadhum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does Zach work for Google?
>
> If not, then how else can we contact Google.
>
>
> >
>

--
Make long URLs memorable: http://urlet.com

[Zack (Doc)]

You make me blush Ryan.

No, I don't work at Google. I'm just a user like yourselves. I do
work in networking, and therefore have a lot of knowledge of the RFCs
and why some things work and others don't. I can tell you, that in a
very short time, NOT adding the Sender header will cause mail delivery
to fail, and all providers will have to start doing it when they're
not the owner of the domain you're sending from.