Yahoo group messages not reaching me

[APB]

In the last couple of days, I've discovered messages from at least two Yahoo groups that have not made it into one of my Gmail accounts.

The only hypothesis I can come up with is that somehow it's connected with my having turned off Conversation View in that account.

I always check my Spam religiously for false positives, so I know they didn't wind up there; they aren't in Trash; they aren't in All Mail.  They *did* get to another Gmail account which is in the normal Conversation View, and they got to a POP account I have.

Has anybody else observed such behavior, or have any other suggestions about what might have happened?

(I am not aware of Gmail discarding any messages except those it perceives as duplicates.  But one of the missing ones was a standalone.)

Thanks--

[Andy]

I don't know if this helps, but Yahoogroups has acknowledged having
various problems over the last few weeks with email deliveries being
held up or not working at all. These didn't single out Gmail
accounts, but have happened to anyone, and the problems apparently
were on Yahoo's end.

(I have recently seen random emails from Yahoogroups taking one or two
days to reach me. When it happens it messes up the messages I've
already marked as "read".)

Of course if you send a post from your Gmail account to a Yahoo group,
the email of that post, from Yahoo back to you, will get ignored by
Gmail because you've got your own copy that you sent. (It's one of
the things I really dislike about Gmail.)

Personally, I doubt the Conversation view setting has much to do with
it, but I haven't tried doing that as an experiment either. I have
disabled Conversation view a few times, but re-enabled it before
logging out of my Gmail account. It just seems like it shouldn't be
related. But I've been proven wrong before, many times.

Regards,
Andy

[Andrew Doades]

Very odd.

You could try switching conversation view back on and see if email come in again?

But I can't see why that would make any difference (unless non-conversation view is getting confused)

Andrew 

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[Kenneth Ayers]

Gets ignored by Gmail? What actually happens? Is it actually deleted
because it's the same as what's in your sent folder? Or is it there
but just doesn't get displayed when searching your mail?

Also, your submitted post coming back to you from Yahoo! Groups
wouldn't be identical to what you sent because it will have that whole
cumbersome footer explaining how to unsubscribe appended to your
email. So shouldn't Gmail keep both the one you sent and the one you
received since they're not quite the same?

Kenneth

[coconut]

This has been happening to me also.

I don't like to use one email address for all my email needs and have
created accounts with yahoo, and others to differentiate them. One
account is used for registering and mass email list, another for
business, another for personal interaction. I have all messages
forwarded to my gmail and have had no problem receiving or sending
replies with same email address via gmail. I also belong to a yahoo
group and get messages regularly sent to my gmail account.

A month or so ago I set up my yahoo account to receive messages from
my amazon account. That's when I noticed my transaction confirmations,
etc were not being sent to my gmail account. I did find messages on my
yahoo account that were not forwarded to gmail. And thinking back to
that time, it been since then that my yahoo group emails have slowed
down to just one, every other day. Previously I'd get at least a
couple each day. I've since had to change my reply address on amazon
to my gmail address.

I use firefox and opensource operating system. I did upgrade my system
and wonder if that played a part of this mysterious behavior? I'm not
familar with the conversation view setting. If yahoo is at the root of
this problem, I hope they fix their problem, or I shall have to close
my yahoo account.

[Andy]

Regarding emails sent to an email reflector, and your own message
being ignored/deleted ...

Kenneth Ayers <justk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gets ignored by Gmail?  What actually happens?  Is it actually deleted
> because it's the same as what's in your sent folder?  Or is it there
> but just doesn't get displayed when searching your mail?

As far as I can tell, it gets deleted, not to your trash, but just
gone. Dropped on the floor, so to speak. Gone forever.

Google does this with *almost* anything it perceives as a duplicate.
They have stated it is their policy to delete duplicate messages like
this, to keep our Inbox from being cluttered with unnecessary emails.

Unfortunately, messages you send to email groups, fall into this
category too. Google claims you don't need to see your own message
sent back to you because you would receive a 'bounce' message if it
didn't go through ... which of course is nonsense.

The other thing I find annoying is that Google has a strange
definition of what constitutes a "duplicate" message, worthy of being
trashed. All Yahoo group emails contain several additional lines of
text (added when the message goes through the group's servers) and I
do not consider them duplicates because of that. Now in most cases
the extra lines are there in all group messages so they don't really
carry anything important that you couldn't get by reading another
message from the same group. But in a small number of moderated
groups, the moderators add more discussion, even answers to your
questions, and Google considers these OK to ignore too!

Yet on the other hand I see other cases where Google regularly passes
exact and near-exact duplicate messages through to my Gmail Inbox.

So there doesn't seem to be any logic to it. Except for the fact that
Google trashes all Yahoogroup replies from yourself, even if only half
or less of the content of the email is an actual duplicate.

One would think Google does this intentionally because Yahoo is their
competitor and Yahoogroups compete with Googlegroups. I suspect that
may indeed be true.

> Also, your submitted post coming back to you from Yahoo! Groups
> wouldn't be identical to what you sent because it will have that whole
> cumbersome footer explaining how to unsubscribe appended to your
> email.  So shouldn't Gmail keep both the one you sent and the one you
> received since they're not quite the same?

You would think so, wouldn't you?

Unfortunately, they don't.

Unfortunately, Google doesn't seem to want to budge on this.

This happens even with emails from Googlegroups, such as this one,
though the added footers in Googlegroups tend to be smaller and I
think moderators can't edit or add to your messages. But they are
still not duplicates. Yet Gmail considers them "close enough" so that
they trash them.

The way I see it, nothing is permanent, and in a few years someone
other than Google will come along and offer an even better free email
service that will replace Gmail, and hopefully it will fix some of
these problems Gmail has.

Regards,
Andy

[Fuzzy Logic]

Answers inline.

On Sunday, October 31, 2010, Andy <AI.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding emails sent to an email reflector, and your own message
> being ignored/deleted ...
>
> Kenneth Ayers <justk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Gets ignored by Gmail?  What actually happens?  Is it actually deleted
>> because it's the same as what's in your sent folder?  Or is it there
>> but just doesn't get displayed when searching your mail?
>
> As far as I can tell, it gets deleted, not to your trash, but just
> gone.  Dropped on the floor, so to speak.  Gone forever.

True. Specifically, messages with identical Message-ID fields in the
header are dropped.

> Google does this with *almost* anything it perceives as a duplicate.

Not true. It is only messages with duplicate Message-IDs.

> They have stated it is their policy to delete duplicate messages like
> this, to keep our Inbox from being cluttered with unnecessary emails.
>
> Unfortunately, messages you send to email groups, fall into this
> category too.  Google claims you don't need to see your own message
> sent back to you because you would receive a 'bounce' message if it
> didn't go through ... which of course is nonsense.

Nonsense, but Yahoo also has an option to change the message-id on
retransmission, but chooses not to.

~~~SNIP~~~

> So there doesn't seem to be any logic to it.

Happily, I was able to clear up the mechanism, so now you know the logic.

> One would think Google does this intentionally because Yahoo is their
> competitor and Yahoogroups compete with Googlegroups.  I suspect that
> may indeed be true.

Your paranoia is showing.

> Unfortunately, Google doesn't seem to want to budge on this.

True. I wish they would as well.

> The way I see it, nothing is permanent, and in a few years someone
> other than Google will come along and offer an even better free email
> service that will replace Gmail, and hopefully it will fix some of
> these problems Gmail has.

While new providers will come along, I don't forsee Gmail going away
in a few years.

Fuzzy

[Andy]

> True. Specifically, messages with identical Message-ID fields in the
> header are dropped.

Thanks. I had not seen this as the explanation, prior to this.

Unfortunately, most of us (I suspect) don't know enough about
Message-ID fields to know how they get set or changed. So from a
practical point of view I don't know what to do with it. I'm assuming
we have no control over it.

>> ...  Google claims you don't need to see your own message

>> sent back to you because you would receive a 'bounce' message if it
>> didn't go through ... which of course is nonsense.
>

> Nonsense ...

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me, or saying "nonsense" to what
I said. I do know that you don't get a bounce message if a group's
moderator doesn't approve your message on an email group or list ...
which was a really good reason for wanting to see your own posts to a
list.

> ... but Yahoo also has an option to change the message-id on

> retransmission, but chooses not to.

Google groups too.

Along with most any other email list I subscribe to and have posted to
since having Gmail. It seems to be common if not universal practice.

> Your paranoia is showing.

Not so much paranoia, as frustration or perhaps anger.

> While new providers will come along, I don't forsee Gmail going away
> in a few years.

Yeah ... "in a few years" was probably a bit optimistic.

But in 10 years time it might be interesting to look back and see what
has changed.

Heck, we might not be using email that much anymore. I hear that
today's college students rarely use email. To them it is so dated.

Regards,
Andy

[Zack (Doc)]

Inline.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 19:29, Andy <AI.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

> True. Specifically, messages with identical Message-ID fields in the
> header are dropped.

Thanks.  I had not seen this as the explanation, prior to this.

Unfortunately, most of us (I suspect) don't know enough about
Message-ID fields to know how they get set or changed.  So from a
practical point of view I don't know what to do with it.  I'm assuming
we have no control over it.

 

I too hadn't heard this, but it makes good sense.  MOST e-mail programs have no control over it, and it's a function of your mail-server, so it actually makes a LOT of sense as a way to track duplicates; though as you point out, mailservers for lists can put a monkey wrench into this.

 

>> ...  Google claims you don't need to see your own message

>> sent back to you because you would receive a 'bounce' message if it
>> didn't go through ... which of course is nonsense.
>

> Nonsense ...

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me, or saying "nonsense" to what
I said.  I do know that you don't get a bounce message if a group's
moderator doesn't approve your message on an email group or list ...
which was a really good reason for wanting to see your own posts to a
list.

Not entirely true.  In the case of Google Groups, and I've seen it in Yahoo Groups as well, it's possible, and even preferred to send back "Your message was rejected" messages.  It's usually possible to deny sending these, but as a mod myself, I often leave those on so people will DEF know they were not allowed through, even providing a reason, though they often respost with a "I don't know why my last post was rejected." message.

> ... but Yahoo also has an option to change the message-id on

> retransmission, but chooses not to.

Google groups too.

Along with most any other email list I subscribe to and have posted to
since having Gmail.  It seems to be common if not universal practice.

The difference here being, on Google Groups, the mods have no ability to edit your message.  It's either pass, or reject.  So if your message does go out, other than list header/footers, it's the EXACT message you sent.  I think Yahoogroups should either adopt this policy, or, when a mod edits the message, the message-id changes.  Since the content of the message has substantially changed, that's a more proper response.  Ironically, yahoogroups ALWAYS gets their messages back to me.  Perhaps this is cause I use an alias address, which means I insert a "Sender"... they in turn have changed that to "X-Sender", and added a "Sender" of their own.  Perhaps that's enough mods for them to justify changing the message-id.  On Google groups and a private mailing list I'm on, I never see my own posts.

 

> Your paranoia is showing.

Not so much paranoia, as frustration or perhaps anger.

 

You said "One would think Google does this intentionally because Yahoo is their competitor"... that's more than frustration, and pure into paranoia :).

And FYI... I too would like to see them remove this "feature" or at least make it user selectable.  It hasn't bothered me too much, too often, but it shouldn't ever bother me to be useful.

[Sean Murphy]

    Except that Gmail has been doing this since long before there was a GoogleGroups. Otherwise I would suspect it too.