indian language script(s)

[peekay]

indian language script(s)
===================

discussed till now -


seppo :

in which form do you have your scripts ?
is it a document with tables ?
or
is it the modified source code ?



peekay :

unicode has fixed up code points for hindi, bengali,
tamil, telugu, malayalam, asamese, etc

www.unicode.org lists them .. they begin at codepoint
hex0900 and continue in blocks of hex80 (decimal 128)
codepoints for each script

hindi codepoints are from hex0900 upto hex097f

not all codepoints are used .. some are undefined and
are 'null' value for now

these can be written in windows notepad quite easily

here are some of them :

अ आ sounds like english a and aa
इ ई = i ii
उ ऊ = u uu
ए ऐ = e ee
ओ औ = o oo
क ख ग घ ङ = ka kha ga gha nga
च छ ज झ ञ
ट ठ ड ढ ण
त थ द ध न
प फ ब भ म = pa pha ba bha ma
य र ल व
श ष स ह
क्ष त्र ज्ञ

my s/w works on windows and linux platforms ..
i am able to 'convert' the normal keyboard into
indian language keyboard ..

for a gkos type of solution, the objective cannot be
'least number of keys'

the objective will have to be
'least number of confusing charts'

so, i conclude that the keyboard will work best
if all 8 fingers and the two thumbs have a key
under them

this works out to a keyboard with 10 keys
and the combinations will work fine because
the hindi script also has characters 'grouped'
in sub-set of five or less characters

the grouping is based on the body's anatomy

5 characters whose sound comes from the throat
are the 1st group of 'consonants'

this grouping works for 5 parts of the body - throat,
teeth, lips, roof-of-mouth, backside-of-upper teeth

it sounds very complicated .. but once understood,
it is really easy to understand AND remember

the visual basic or the html/javaScript coding will
need to be done accordingly

i believe that with 10 keys for the 10 fingers/thumbs
will make this method easily usable and simple enough
to become a popular, easy, implementable standard
it would be nice if sequence is used instead of chording

so "FJ" would give me क (ka) character
& "JF" could give me ख (kha) character

as of now, using chording, FJ and JF give the same english character


more later .. as we go on ......




seppo :

ok. thanks for info. i think i get the idea.
what i'm wondering now is how to design a small mobile
device with ten keys, one for each finger + thumbs, and
how to be able to control which keys get pressed and
how you prevent pressing, say, the key under your thumb
when pressing other keys...

if this is a keyboard to be used on a desk, then i could see
how to operate it.

but, on the other hand, 10 keys seems to be a clear way to
group the sounds.

now the hard part: how to implement the clear grouping of
10 keys on only 6 keys (=GKOS)?

[peekay]

<snipped>

> seppo :
>
> ok. thanks for info. i think i get the idea.
> what i'm wondering now is how to design a small mobile
> device with ten keys, one for each finger + thumbs,

i thought about this .. and i think that for mobile devices a
10 key solution will NOT be the better solution !

for a desktop/laptop pc a 10 key solution would be ok

> how to be able to control which keys get pressed and
> how you prevent pressing, say, the key under your thumb
> when pressing other keys...
>
> if this is a keyboard to be used on a desk, then i could see
> how to operate it.

this is how it could be -

for the desktop/laptop the keys used could be

A S D F G H J K L ; (home row .. middle row)

index (first) finger of both hands would be on F and J .. the
keys with indentated dots, bumps, to 'feel' the keys

those same index (first) fingers would be used for
hitting G and H

thumbs are not used !

if using the " ; " key causes visual basic programming problems,
then the upper row could be used -

Q W E R T Y U I O P (upper row)

with left hand little finger on Q
and
the right hand little finger on P

here again left hand index (first) finger would be used for T
and the right hand index (first) finger would be used for Y



even simpler would be to use the number keys

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

with left hand little finger on 1
and
the right hand little finger on 0


since it is easier to explain, i'll use the upper
row keys for conception stage

1st group .. the ka-group -
QY would give 1st letter of 1st group - क (ka)
QU would give 2nd letter of 1st group - ख (kha)
QI would give 3rd letter of 1st group - ग (ga)
QO would give 4th letter of 1st group - घ (gha)
QP would give 5th letter of 1st group - ङ (nga)

2nd group .. the cha-group -
WY would give 1st letter of 2nd group - च (cha as in chat)
WU would give 2nd letter of 2nd group - छ (chha)
WI would give 3rd letter of 2nd group - ज (ja)
WO would give 4th letter of 2nd group - झ (jha)
WP would give 5th letter of 2nd group - ञ (yna)

3rd group .. the tta-group -
EY EU EI EO EP - 1st to 5th letters of 3rd group

4th group .. the ta-group
RY RU RI RO RP - 1st to 5th letters of 4th group

5th group .. the pa-group -
TY TU TI TO TP - 1st to 5th letters of 5th group

and so on .. more later .....



the already available keyboard of the desktop/laptop can be used

if BOTH upper and middle rows can be used by the visual basic program,
it would be a very popular solution which would lead to quick and
convenient
adoption of this software only solution

> but, on the other hand, 10 keys seems to be a clear way to
> group the sounds.
>
> now the hard part: how to implement the clear grouping of

> 10 keys on only 6 keys (=GKOS)1st to 5th letters of 3rd group

for an attachable hardware solution, even for the desktop/notebook,
a usb or bluetooth keyboard with the 6back form would easily work

i will write about how it will work in another posting

the 'attach' option would be also valid for use on mobile phones/
devices

[peekay]

> > now the hard part: how to implement the clear grouping of
> > 10 keys on only 6 keys (=GKOS)1st to 5th letters of 3rd group
> for an attachable hardware solution, even for the desktop/notebook,
> a usb or bluetooth keyboard with the 6back form would easily work
> i will write about how it will work in another posting
> the 'attach' option would be also valid for use on mobile phones/
> devices

following up on the use of Q W E R T and Y U I O P keys, for a
6back device, the corresponding key press combinations would be -

Q [ ] [ ] Y
W < > U (top&mid buttons together)
E [ ] [ ] I
R < > O (mid&bottom buttons together)
T [ ] [ ] T

the mechanical device would be constructed as already being done

bluetooth keyboard are already available

a 6back bluetooth is the easy, simple and (should become)
popular solution !

for indian scripts i am thinking of 'adding' keys in between the
upper
and middle as also between the middle and bottom keys.

these additional keys would work as mechanichal keys to press down
the adjoining two keys together ! simply done !

and so we will have 10 keys in total

these would be actually working on the original design of 6keys

key 1 key 2 key 3 key 4 key 5
|| || || || ||
|| [oooooooo] || [oooooooo] ||
[xxxxxxxx] [xxxxxxxxxxx] [xxxxxxxxx]
|| || ||
[TopKeyF] [MiddleKeyD] [BottomKeyS]




[TopKeyJ] [MiddleKeyK] [BottomKeyL]
|| || ||
[xxxxxxxx] [xxxxxxxxxxx] [xxxxxxxxx]
|| [oooooooo] || [oooooooo] ||
|| || || || ||
key 6 key 7 key 8 key 9 key 0

[seppo]

OK. I think that is a great idea to obtain 5+5 keys on GKOS keyboard.

What I am worried about is that the order or the keys on the left hand
becomes reversed. This is probably a problem when you switch between
GKOS and QWERTY. Especially when your typing is becoming automatic
after learning the system(s), there will be a conflict in thinking and
motorics.

Could you consider numbering your QWERY keys differently? Like:
qwert = 54321 and yuiop = 67890

The logic here would be that forefingers would be where you start
counting and also thinking, This is a common practice e.g. on sheet
music finger numbering.

You may have done a lot of work already but, on the other hand,
not too many people have yet memorized the system, so it could
be worth considering it at this stage. Also the logic with consonants
might have to be reversed for the left hand.

Just a thought. After all, mobile use is surely going to increase in
future.

Seppo

[seppo]

Peekay, a couple of more comments.

I use qwert=54321 / yuiop=67890 below (easier for me to think after
using GKOS).

Because there are so many letters in Hindi, you have to use the Combos
Page Up/Down (r+u/w+o), Up/Down Arrow (t+y/q+p), Shift(e+i), / (w+u)
and \ (r+o) for letters instead. - Maybe these could be used after
switching
to number mode. Chordons could also be considered.

Right/Left arrows, Space and Backspace could be reserved for their
original use
unless you really need them for vowels or something else.

Regarding Chordons, my original thought about Hindi consonants was to
allocate
e.g. GKOS letter L (GKOS Keys A+E+F) to, say, Hindi ka group. There
are 6 chordons
that can be used to select that kind of 3-key Combo. They could be
used to select the
other consonants within that group, using the same principal in all
consonant groups.
So all you would have to remember is the group itself and the
principle of the order
of Chordons within a 3-key group. - But that would brake the nice
relationship between
your QWERTY design and the GKOS variant of it. So better forget it.

Seppo

On May 11, 8:19 am, peekay <pksharmakolk...@gmail.com> wrote:

[peekay]

> OK. I think that is a great idea to obtain 5+5 keys on GKOS keyboard.

i appreciate your attitude of co-operation, acceptance,
encouragement usually people are too entangled in their
own conceptions and find it very difficult to think along the
lines of another person's concept

thank you for being 'open' and receptive

> What I am worried about is that the order or the keys on the left hand
> becomes reversed. This is probably a problem when you switch between
> GKOS and QWERTY. Especially when your typing is becoming automatic
> after learning the system(s), there will be a conflict in thinking and
> motorics.

i see your point .. it WILL be a problem .. i guess we will need
to change our way of looking at the keyboard

instead of thinking about it like a paper (where writing is done
from extreme left to the extreme right) .. we need to focus on
the fingers which do the key-pressing .. so this is how it would
be 're-labelled' :
T=L1 (Lefthandfinger1)
R=L2
E=L3
W=L4
Q=L4X (Lefthandfinger1eXtended)

Y=R1
U=R2
I=R3
O=R4
P=R4X

changing the -
'home row' finger positions
(index fingers on F and J - midRow)
to a 'hindi row' finger position
(index fingers on T and Y - uprRow)

the characters would be redefined by
codes for the fingers used ..

for example :

क (ka) Group1Letter1 = L1R1
ख (kha) Grp1Ltr2 = L1R2
ग (ga) G1L3 = L1R3
घ (gha) G1L4 = L1R4
ङ (nga) G1L5 = L1R4X

च (cha) G2L1 = L2R1
छ (chha) G2L2 = L2R2
ज (ja) G2L3 = L2R3
झ (jha) G2L4 = L2R4
ञ (yna) G2L5 = L2R4X

> Could you consider numbering your QWERY keys differently? Like:
> qwert = 54321 and yuiop = 67890

to break away from the mind fixation on alphabetic and
numeric sequences, the keyboard locations could be
'renamed' using abbreviations
(using the 'hindi row' finger position mentioned above)

T = (L)eft (I)ndex finger key LI
R = (L)eft (M)iddle finger key LM
E = (L)eft (R)ing finger key LR
W = (L)eft (L)ittle finger key LL
Q = (L)eft (L)ittle (e)xtended finger key LLe

Y=RI U=RM I= RR O=RL P=RLe

> The logic here would be that forefingers would be where you start
> counting and also thinking, This is a common practice e.g. on sheet
> music finger numbering.

hmm..

> You may have done a lot of work already but, on the other hand,
> not too many people have yet memorized the system, so it could
> be worth considering it at this stage. Also the logic with consonants
> might have to be reversed for the left hand.

good suggestions .. i will revise my work-notes and thrash
out this 'different' and 'sheet music numbering' approach
based re-naming/numbering

> Just a thought. After all, mobile use is surely going to increase in
> future.

it already has leapfrogged .. there are more TV's thand PC's .. but
there are much more CP's (CellPhones) than TV's .. it is a huuuge
user base out there already .. we need to make it possible to use
the power of the CP with the simplicity of inputing via GKOS method

[peekay]

On May 11, 2:05 pm, seppo <seppo.tiai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peekay, a couple of more comments.
>
> I use qwert=54321 / yuiop=67890 below (easier for me to think after
> using GKOS).

this is news for me .. i was presuming that
you were tied down to the SDF G H JKL
keys on the qwerty

using the QWERT YUIOP looked more simple
to me .. after all, the 'home row' was good for typewriters
(which never used the chording method .. strangely ..
since piaonos, harmonica, etc already existed before
type-writers/writing was invented and standardized !)

> Because there are so many letters in Hindi, you have to use the Combos
> Page Up/Down (r+u/w+o), Up/Down Arrow (t+y/q+p), Shift(e+i), / (w+u)
> and \ (r+o) for letters instead. - Maybe these could be used after
> switching
> to number mode. Chordons could also be considered.
>
> Right/Left arrows, Space and Backspace could be reserved for their
> original use
> unless you really need them for vowels or something else.

i guess we will need to 'fix' the concepts after thinking/discussing

prima facie, i find no reason to alter your 'standards' for PgUp/PgDn
Up/Dn and even the other keys

but since the user bases for european (alphabet
based) users and the indian (indic scripts based) users
are mutually exclusive and since there are likely to be a
very tiny minority who will need to use both the input
methods, it may be possible to used the combinations
left over after 'fixing' the indian script charactes for allocating
to PgUp, etc .. though for 'uniformity' of punctuation,
direction, mousecontrol i tend to NOT want a differing
'standard' for PgUp, etc

>
> Regarding Chordons, my original thought about Hindi consonants was to
> allocate
> e.g. GKOS letter L (GKOS Keys A+E+F) to, say, Hindi ka group. There
> are 6 chordons
> that can be used to select that kind of 3-key Combo. They could be
> used to select the
> other consonants within that group, using the same principal in all
> consonant groups.
> So all you would have to remember is the group itself and the
> principle of the order
> of Chordons within a 3-key group. - But that would brake the nice
> relationship between
> your QWERTY design and the GKOS variant of it. So better forget it.

i really don't know .. it might turn out to be a better idea or
perhaps a good idea .. especially for users of both european
language and indian language .. a simple common platform ..
i guess we could keep discussing about it and probably come
up with some bright ideas

[seppo]

sorry for being unclear about this:

>> I use qwert=54321 / yuiop=67890 below (easier for me to think after
>> using GKOS).
>this is news for me .. i was presuming that
>you were tied down to the SDF G H JKL
>keys on the qwerty

what I meant was that in the *example* below, I use...

seppo

[pks kolkata]

understood .. thanks for the clarification

2009/5/12 seppo <seppo....@gmail.com>

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