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Anchors, Chains & Cables - World Naval Ships Forums Archive (Page 2)
Anchors, Chains & Cables (Page 2)
Posts 51 to 100
I have noticed on quite a lot of the ships photographs posted by Bob [amongst others] that the ship depicted has a rope/hawser hanging alongside of the starboard side of the vessel from near the anchor back to somewhere alongside the start of the bridge ....what is this ?.. and why is it not stowed away having served its use ????
Are you sure that is goes just to the Bridge, Ivor?The ones that I have had anything to do with starts at a cleat on the Foc'sle and the goes aft to the Seaboat. It is called the Painter. Obviously it doesn't necessarily have to be on the starboard side. If the seaboat is on the port side, then that is where the painter is.The Painter is either back-spliced or whipped at the Foc'sle end (If all the masking tape has been used up). At the boat's end it has an eye spliced in (loop). This end goes up to the boat and is secured inboard by putting the loop under the forward thwart (Seat) and then putting a wooden block through the eye and on the thwart.It's there to ensure that the seaboat remains in a fore and aft position when it is lowered. When the Cox'n (driver) has full control of the boat with the engine and tiller, the bowman then releases the painter and off they go.When the seaboat comes alongside it is hoisted immediately and the painter is placed in position once the seaboat is secured, ready for the next time. The Painter is not required whilst bringing in the seaboat as the Cox'n is in full control of the boat with the engine and tiller until the boat is clear of the water..The Painter has a smaller size rope spliced about half way along and that is secured vertically onto a cleat on the the upper deck. This is to make it easier to retrieve once the seaboat has gone away.
Thank you Dave,That makes Good sense and I can see the reasoning behind it, I have often wondered why it was there and not stowed away.Regards Ivor
Okay I have a feeling I am going to sound like a complete dork but here goes anyway.I have saved numerous pictures of vessels from World War 1 and 2 and have just noticed something that I don't understand but I'm sure there is a simple explanation!!!!:oCan someone tell me why their are two anchor's on the starboard bow of many ships and only one anchor on the port bow?Sign me embarrassed but determined to learn.Gypsy:ovannergirl
If you are a dork, then so am I. I haven't a clue why. Somebody will know here
Your beat me to it, Gpsy --- and I want to know too. Seen hundreds of pictures of that 2 -1 set up on ships and never thought to ask why.Where's Sir Eustace H.W. Tennyson D'enyncourt when you need him? :)
Some navies stowed a third anchor (if carried) to starboard, others (eg Germany) to port. As to why - I've no idea, I'm afraid!Tim
I Have a feeling that they were known as Storm anchor.Ships anchoring in ports liable to severe storms(West Indies, Hong Knong) could use the third anchor as extra security.Usually carried away in a pinace and dropped at an angle to the first. Steve.:confused:
Hi Guys, bit of information regarding anchors.Bower and Sheet Anchors. A ships largest anchors are called "bower anchors" They are used for anchoring or mooring the ship and are stowed one on each bow in a "hawspipe".A spare bower anchor, called the "sheet anchor" is carried in some larger ships for use in emergency. It is usually stowed in a hawspipe on the starboard bow, just aft of the starboard bower anchor.Hope this helps.Derek (Bunts)
[QUOTE=Derek Dicker;95651]Hi Guys, bit of information regarding anchors.Bower and Sheet Anchors. A ships largest anchors are called "bower anchors" They are used for anchoring or mooring the ship and are stowed one on each bow in a "hawspipe".A spare bower anchor, called the "sheet anchor" is carried in some larger ships for use in emergency. It is usually stowed in a hawspipe on the starboard bow, just aft of the starboard bower anchor.Hope this helps.Derek (Bunts)[/QUOTE]Derek has got it right. I am attaching a few pages from the 1938 Manual of Seamanship which adds to the information about anchors.Note some of the weights quoted. These massive ships like the HOOD and NELSON needed some heavy tackle to keep them under control, should the need arise.
Attachments :
Attachment 1
Attachment 2
OK guys we now have the answer for the 2-1 arrangement for anchors, but no answer for why the 2 are on the starboard sideMik
[QUOTE=mik43;95804]OK guys we now have the answer for the 2-1 arrangement for anchors, but no answer for why the 2 are on the starboard sideMik[/QUOTE]Simply, Naval Design Convention, one would think? As you know, once a design works well, you don't change it. Then it becomes the standard. This happens with lots of naval traditions.If it aint broke..don't fix it? That's my guess, for now anyway. But I'm so interested in the question I shall see what I can dig up from lots of other historical sources.
It seems to have varied - according the John Harland in "Seamanship in the Age of Sail", British warships originally carried two anchors to port and one to starboard, apparently to do with prevailing winds and the wind shifting in the direction of the sun...but this seems to have changed later, and by the 19th century it had reversed to two to starboard one to port. Apparently most northern hemisphere ships used two to starboard/one to port, whilst southern hemisphere reversed the arrangement.He points out that the battleship Agincourt of 1914 differed from other British battleships in having two to port...but she was intended for Brazil.
[QUOTE=navalis;95888]It seems to have varied - according the John Harland in "Seamanship in the Age of Sail", British warships originally carried two anchors to port and one to starboard, apparently to do with prevailing winds and the wind shifting in the direction of the sun...but this seems to have changed later, and by the 19th century it had reversed to two to starboard one to port. Apparently most northern hemisphere ships used two to starboard/one to port, whilst southern hemisphere reversed the arrangement.He points out that the battleship Agincourt of 1914 differed from other British battleships in having two to port...but she was intended for Brazil.[/QUOTE]That's about the most stupid explaination I have ever read from any source, on any subject, in the last 66 years!Have you, or He (John Harland) ever been to sea in a big ship whitch carries a sheet anchor? If you have, and you were a seaman on the foc'sle division, please explain what you are saying, "about the prevailing winds and the direction of the sun." with reference to bower and sheet anchors.When you need to anchor or moor a vessel, it's hard luck if the time of day, the wind direction and the place your in don't suit you!If there's no sun and no wind...what do you do, what's the effect?If there is sun and plenty of wind, what do you do, what's the effect?What planet are you from? You are not one of these "water down the plughole the wrong way" experts, are you?Britannia ruled the waves! Not just the bits it could anchor or moor in occasionally, dependant on the sun and wind...
Oh guys, please don't let this thread get ugly. I really want to know and understand the reason for the project I am working on.I have never been on one of those monster ships and I can imagine that mooring them must have been difficult to say the least if the weather was not co-operating.:DI'm just curious as to why there are two anchors on one side of a ship and one on the other.It isn't important enough to cause conflicts. Be at peaceGypsyvannergirl (from planet Earth)
edaward/EKD Derek Dicker's contribution, the seamanship manual 1939 with your post complete with attachments will do for me!!!BUT I am left a tad confused:confused:... [B][I]I have ever read from any source, on any subject, in the last 66 years![/I][/B]so for the viewers:) when did you start reading + 66 years = your age;);)Little h
Looks like a simple LHD/RHD arrangement!!! :D
Tee-Hee!!! Nice one Terry!!Mik
[QUOTE=mik43;95804]OK guys we now have the answer for the 2-1 arrangement for anchors, but no answer for why the 2 are on the starboard sideMik[/QUOTE]Maybe it has no rational explanation. If obligated by anything but tradition all would follow this pattern.According to my knowledge only German Navy used opposite arrangement.Quite interesting that troublesome couple Gneisenau & Scharnhorst retained only two, one on each side, after they had received so called Atlantic Bow. But it could be because of troubles with heavy bow. There was also the third way: one anchor on every side and third one at extreme bow (Dunkerque & Strasbourg as example).And by the way: Maybe I'm wrong but I have thought that's rather anchor chain weight which is responsible for keeping the ship in place.
Hi MMM! You are correct.The weight of the cable acts as a form of 'shock absorber' taking the effects of the ships movement caused by wind ,tide and wave action. The anchor, if streamed with adaquate scope, should act as a backstop to the cable preventing drag. Thats the theory anyway ! Cheers John O'C.
Oddly enough, certain ships in which I served had asymetrical cable lengths with the longer length to starboard. I vaguely remember the Tons having 5 shackles to port and 7 shackles to starboard. Can anyone confirm? Perhaps it originally had something to do with ships being able to use the same anchor to conduct formation anchorages in deeper water.
[QUOTE=Rob Hoole;96197]Oddly enough, certain ships in which I served had asymetrical cable lengths with the longer length to starboard. I vaguely remember the Tons having 5 shackles to port and 7 shackles to starboard. Can anyone confirm? Perhaps it originally had something to do with ships being able to use the same anchor to conduct formation anchorages in deeper water.[/QUOTE]As Merchantman I don't know Navy's specifications but I think we exist in the same environment.So there are two lengths of chain to spare the weight.On the other hand when anchoring using two anchors the ship uses always two different length of chain so there are no need to carry two the same chains.
As an ex Mechanician, I am not too familiar with things that happen on deck up at the sharp end but from my sea cadet days there is a faint memory of a procedure referred to as mooring on two anchors. I seem to remember that it consisted of dropping the first anchor and then manoeuvering the ship to allow the second to be dropped some distance away. At this point a cable was run down the starboard hawse pipe and attached to the port anchor cable which was then drawn up through the starboard hawse pipe on to the forcastle. Lying in wait was a mooring swivel with 'odd links to port, even links to starboard and the cup facing aft'. The two cables were then split at their joining shackles, the swivel inserted into the cables and the cables run out again. The swivel would be positioned fairly close to the bow so that with changes of tide or current the ship could swing at its moorings without getting the anchor cables into a tangle. This manoeuvre would need one cable to be longer than the other to allow it to be drawn up the opposite hawse pipe.Bearing in mind that I am casting my mind back several decades, and spent most of the time in the engine room swinging on the throttles when this was going on, I may have got port and starboard in the wrong order but I think I have got the principle about right. Any takers?Ken
Well done - you have got it right. Full details are in the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - Chapter 11.
Attachments :
Attachment 1
:rolleyes: ...and in doing so, hoping NOT to end-up with a mess such as this:
Attachments :
Attachment 1
[quote=John O'Callaghan;96173]Hi MMM! You are correct.The weight of the cable acts as a form of 'shock absorber' taking the effects of the ships movement caused by wind ,tide and wave action. The anchor, if streamed with adaquate scope, should act as a backstop to the cable preventing drag. Thats the theory anyway ! Cheers John O'C.[/quote] From my sailings days I seem to remember that the rule of thumb for anchor chain length to be used was three times the depth of water.
[QUOTE=emason;96290]From my sailings days I seem to remember that the rule of thumb for anchor chain length to be used was three times the depth of water.[/QUOTE]The quoted Minimum in the 1937 Manual of Seamanship was 3 times the depth of water, but in the 1951 Manual of seamanship the Minimum was Four and Five times the depth of water.Obviously, in adverse conditions, and where anchorages had fast running currents, strong winds or hard rock seabeds, more would be paid out to compensate for these.It is true that the weight of the cable holds the ship, whilst the anchor holds the cable. H.M.S. Vanguard had 495 fathoms of cable (total 3000ft) to bear. That's an awful weight of 3" forged steel chain cable when required!
OkayFor those of us imbeciles (me) who know about five parts of a ship can someone please explain this to me in a language I can understand?I may only be a woman but I'm not stupid and I am getting tired of being talked around.If women on here annoy you then by all means I'll leave. I have a project I'm working on that doesn't make me feel as stupid as some of you on this forum do.By the way - ever hear of Billy Mitchell - he's the guy at the end of world war one who tried to convince the navy at the time that aeroplanes could destroy battleships with the right amount of firepower and bombs. He attempted to prove his theory by using the aeroplanes of his day to drop different kinds of bombs in or near ships that had been retired. He proved that concussion shocks from the water could crack hulls - he proved that with enough attacks, a battleship could be sunk. He tried to convince the Navy, but they shut him up because it mean't less government money if he was right. He was court-martialed and died never realizing he was right because he never got to see the mess at Pearl Harbor. Or the other huge ships sunk by planes - in World War 2. That's who I was researching today - after his death they named the planes Doolittle and his gang flew in his raid over Japan after him - the only plane named after a person.Gypsyvannergirl(Yeah, I'm a girl)
Stay with it Gipsy.... there are other ladies on this forum who are happily (I hope) esconced as full participants. The Ladies Bee, Karen, Ednamay and our Millford Lass immediately come to mind, all fully integrated with the wider forum membership, so you are not a lone female voice in our midst!Little h
Yes Maam! Some techtalk! Anchors come in a variety of designs. Admiralty Pattern,Danforth, CQR etc..etc...As with everything else in the world there are personal favourites,fashions and people who will argue 'til the cows come home about which is the best.An anchor has a cable, some might call it a chain or if your talking smallboats or really old ships, rope.The cable attaches the ship to the anchor and also the weight of the cable on the sea bed is what stops the ship from drifting. The anchor also assists in this and is the backstop if the cable does not hold.theanchor does this by digging into the seabed. depending on the bottom mud, sand, rock etc.The length of the cable from the ship to the anchor on the seabed is called the scope. Ideally this should be somewhere about 3-5 times the depth of water ie water depth 50ft -scope 150-250ft.The anchor cable usually has swivels built into it to allow the ship to swing with the tide or wind without entangling.There all sorts of manouvers the ship might have to make in laying its anchor to avoid just having the cable sit on the bottom in a great big heap which is not the ideal way.In some cicumstance a ship may have to lay more than one anchor to suit its requirements.I guess thats enough of an intro. for a lay person.Hope it helps and is not considered patronising,Cheers John O'C.
Don't forget Gypsy, this forum is full of gentlemen who still hold doors open for the ladies, tip their hats, an say "Ma'am" at the appropriate times. They will ALL come to your rescue with the proper term or definition if you ask. We often forget words used on deck are strangers to those on land many times. I served on ships for years, most here have served many more than I have and ALL of us can be surprised by some reference to a piece of equipment never heard of before that we may have walked right by many times, especially on the big ships.I do have to admit though, that the Royal Navy (And all related navies) absolutely excel at coming up with terminology for things that leaves us poor American sailors scratching our heads in wonder! You can see it in many of the names used aboard this forum! :) In fact, I think someone finally had to publish a book or two to enlighten the uninitiated!Just ask, Gypsy, somebody will answer for you -- we take care of ALL our members on this forum, and the other ladies I am sure would say the same.
Thank youI did go on the Internet to try to learn about anchors and was surprised at how they have evolved. I guess this is because of the size and strength of the ships that have changed also. See, now I have to check all my photo's of the lake freighters to see how many anchors they have.Usually when I think of an anchor i think of those ships from Horatio Hornblower's days but they have very much evolved since then and that is obviously because the understanding of the bottom of the ocean has also evolved. I wasn't trying to blow my own horn about Billy Mitchell, I just wanted to let people on this forum know that I am dead serious about this project I am working on. The information out there is neverending but I'm plowing through it piece by piece.At least I know what a Battleship; Battlecruiser; Dreadnought and pre-dreadnought are.:D:D:D:D:DAnd I would like to believe that the captain of U-29 - he of the Aboukir, Cressy, Hogue and Hawke disasters - found that his last words were 'Oh Crap' as HMS Dreadnought ran over him:D:D:D:D as he did exactly that.
Oh God Pastronize me please.For the past 45 years I have been longing to learn everything I could about ships and I haven't known where to go. Do you realize what a minefield it is out there trying to research ships when you haven't a clue where to start. I've gone from knowing only HMS Hood and the Bismarck to knowing about 4,000 other ships and I LOVE EVERY MINUTE OF IT.Guys and gals - this is the only thing a computer is good for. Unless your looking for the karma sutra but that's a whole nother website:D:D:D:D:DI feel like up to now my life has had no purpose - but a bright light appeared in the sky and a voice said - oh sorry that was my dream last night and I can't repeat what the voice said because it was my husband shining the light in my eyes:D:D:D:DSeriously - my favorite band is the Scottish band Runrig and their song "The Old Boys" leaves me in tears everytime I hear it. These veterans are running out of time and I want at least one to know that their stories will never be forgotten (can't spell tonight - gotta stop thinking about karma sutra lol).Plus the added benefit is being able to finally talk down to my father after years of him talking down to me lol.
Go, Gypsy! :)
Okay Don with what?Research or the Karma Sutra?Gypsyvannergirl
Not touching that line!!!:)
Hi GVG! Techtalk2.When a ship wishes to anchor the captain manouvers to the desired position and after allowing for such things as the swing(the amount of room needed to ensure there is nothing to hit as the ship moves with the tide once anchored.No rocks,wharves, navigation markers,and ensuring she is clear of shipping channels). The anchor is dropped, the ship then will reverse slowly to ensure that the cable is layed and taking the strain and the anchor is holding.If a second anchor is to be laid the ship can then move forward and manouver to drop the second anchor and then reverse to take up the strain on that anchor etc. Whilst all this is going on, the anchor party on the forecastle use the capstan to pay out or take in cable ,as nescessary, until the captain is satisfied the ship is anchored where wanted. There are , of course variations on the theme but this is probabably it in a nut shell.another methd of anchoring is a kedge used by landing craft and in salvage where an anchor is layed to keep the bows of a vessel on a beach whilst it unloads and is then used to winch the vessel off to seaward. I hope we have given you a working understanding of some aspects of anchoring at least sufficient for your purposes. As you are no doubt aware sometimes a post can wander off track.Cheers John O'C.
Thank you.Now that I have read your posts - and looked up information regarding anchors it is starting to make sense. Will do some more research and let you know if I have anything else that confuses me.Greatly appreciated.Gypsyvannergirl
GVG Your welcome.we're here to help.Cheers John O'C.
[QUOTE=emason;96290]From my sailings days I seem to remember that the rule of thumb for anchor chain length to be used was three times the depth of water.[/QUOTE]When I was a ship's Navigating Officer, the standard formula used in the RN for calculating the number of shackles of cable to be let out was twice the square root of the depth of water in fathoms. I'm sure this was in the Admiralty Manual of Navigation. More cable was veered (either under power or, more normally, with the brake) as necessary to cope with particularly bad weather and/or poor holding conditions on the seabed.Shackle = 15 fathoms = 90 feetFathom = 6 feet
From my previous post #30 I was refering to a yacht weighing a couple of tons at the most. I was just wondering if a ship weighing tens of thousands of tons required the cable length formula to be modified, or was the cable weight designed from the outset to conform to the formula?
[QUOTE=emason;96499]From my previous post #30 I was refering to a yacht weighing a couple of tons at the most. I was just wondering if a ship weighing tens of thousands of tons required the cable length formula to be modified, or was the cable weight designed from the outset to conform to the formula?[/QUOTE]Depending on the type of metal used, it looks as though the anchors and cable conformed to one of two formulae. Conveniently, the relevant bit of the Admiralty Manual of Navigation is reproduced online [URL=" =GCgXCxG4VLcC&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385&dq=admiralty+manual+of+navigation+anchor+cable&source=bl&ots=Z6QkaoC8BT&sig=4RCYGT_1HSK-UJrrmtUdgt6mQok&hl=en&ei=4hpnS-rHBdWRjAef9OiZBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]here[/URL].
[quote=Rob Hoole;96503]Depending on the type of metal used, it looks as though the anchors and cable conformed to one of two formulae. Conveniently, the relevant bit of the Admiralty Manual of Navigation is reproduced online [URL=" =GCgXCxG4VLcC&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385&dq=admiralty+manual+of+navigation+anchor+cable&source=bl&ots=Z6QkaoC8BT&sig=4RCYGT_1HSK-UJrrmtUdgt6mQok&hl=en&ei=4hpnS-rHBdWRjAef9OiZBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]here[/URL].[/quote] Thanks Bob, from what started as a simple question it seems that it was just the tip of an iceberg of the knowledge required to ensure a safe anchorage. I am glad I didn't have to make those decisions.
[QUOTE=Rob Hoole;96503]Depending on the type of metal used, it looks as though the anchors and cable conformed to one of two formulae. Conveniently, the relevant bit of the Admiralty Manual of Navigation is reproduced online [URL=" =GCgXCxG4VLcC&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385&dq=admiralty+manual+of+navigation+anchor+cable&source=bl&ots=Z6QkaoC8BT&sig=4RCYGT_1HSK-UJrrmtUdgt6mQok&hl=en&ei=4hpnS-rHBdWRjAef9OiZBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]here[/URL].[/QUOTE]Rob, When was the original Admiralty Manual of Navigation issued?This one is obviously 1987. Were there any Navigation Manuals in existence prior to this? If so, do you know roughly how many issues?
The Admiralty Manual of Navigation 1914 was, I think, the first in this form.
Lots of good info on anchors etc, but we still haven't answered the exam question in post #1 - why 2 anchors on the stbd side and only one on the port!!!! Plenty of thoughts but no real answers!!!! Surely there must be some learned person out there who knows the answer??!!Mik
Yeah and here's question number 2Why don't aircraft carriers have more than one anchor on either port or starboard sides?Just noticed that the other day and decided to stir up the pot again?Your pain in the a** researcher.Gypsyvannergirl
Sorry, Gypsyvannergirl, some of them do have a third anchor (or rather, they did). In the RN, Fleet Carriers (ie ARK ROYAL (iii), the Illustrious/Implacable class and the Audacious class (ARK ROYAL (iv) and EAGLE) were all built with three - although in some cases one of them was later landed to save weight (although the hawsepipe remained). Some of the photos in the "Carriers of the Royal Navy" thread ([url] =1864[/url]) show this. Smaller ships (Light Fleet Carriers, Escort Carriers etc) only had two - presumably to reduce the weight forward.Tim
Thank you Tim. I have only seen a few pictures of aircraft carriers so I can't really make a statement like the one I made.This isn't really naval, but it sort of shed some light on the importance of anchors.Several years ago, a freighter called the SS Windoc was going down the Welland Canal coming from Lake Ontario to Lake Erie. The Bridge operator had been called in to work unexpectedly, he'd just finished two 12 hour shifts, had taken medication for a bad back and admitted to having a glass or two of wine several hours before being called back in to work. To make a long story short, when the Windoc went under the bridge, the Operator of the bridge lowered it down too soon and sheered off the complete wheelhouse on the stern. Fortunately no one was killed or hurt. After that, the bridge was out of commission for a long, long time for major repair work. Once it was up and operating again, they had computerized it.Good Choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOTLast year a freighter by the name of SS Montrealais was going the other way on the canal - towards Lake Ontario when the 'computerized' bridge failed to lift. These ships don't go that fast on the canal but fast enough to take out a complete bridge (1972? SS Steelton took out the Port Robinson Bridge). When the Captain of the Montrealais realized the bridge was going anywhere, he sounded the alarm and dropped both anchors. They weren't in time to stop the ship, but she slammed into the bank of the canal and not the bridge this time tearing a hole in her bow. I swear that bridge is cursed. But thank God for the anchors otherwise motor vehicles crossing that bridge might not have realized that the freighter was coming towards the bridge and not away from it. There could easily have been a terrible tragedy if the anchors hadn't helped slow down the ship and the Captain steered her towards the canal bank.You have all given me alot to think about and I'll do some further research from my end. Maybe the St. Lawrence Seaway authorites have a webpage that I can access. Freighters don't have three anchors, but once in a while we have other ships that use the Canal.Gypsyvannergirl:)
[quote=Gypsyvannergirl;95605]Can someone tell me why their are two anchor's on the starboard bow of many ships and only one anchor on the port bow?Gypsy:ovannergirl[/quote] If you look here (post #34) you will see two anchors on the port side. [URL] =1495&page=2[/URL]
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