Electromagnetic Forced Precipitation.

[John Latham]

[geoengi...@googlegroups.com];[kcal...@carnegie.stanford.edu];[s.sa...@ed.ac.uk]

Electromagnetic Forced Precipitation.

Hello All,

The following comments are presented diffidently, because I
do not have sufficient info re the physics & observational evidence
to be categoric.

However, our Atmos. Phys. Res. Group at the U of Manchester {and similar groups
in many countries) have performed field, laboratory and computational
research over several decades into topics such as:- ice crystal aggregation; rain formation,
droplet coalescence; the influence of electrostatic forces on the above processes,
field studies of the influence of cloud seeding on precipitation formation and amounts,
electrostatic dissipation of fogs etc etc. Hundreds of peer-reviewed papers have been published
on this work.

I realize that the proposed electromagnetic forced precipitation techniques is different from the techniques employed in the earlier work, but there are common features/problems applying to these techniques. An important one is that of spatial scale. To be of practical consequence, the proposed cloud clearance technique would need to able to cover an enormous area of ever-changing clouds, as the cloud particles are continuously being created and destroyed. Also, the separation of adjacent particles in these clouds would be at least a hundred diameters. Nature is very efficient at forming clouds, if the temperature and humidity structure of the atmosphere is appropriate.
I seems to me that before considering this interesting idea as an effective geo-engineering candidate, it needs to be much more fully examined and defined, ideally by several independent groups, and be multiply published in top-rank journals, with the papers subjected to rigorous and comprehensive peer review.

Happy New Year!, John. {Lat...@ucar.edu}

John Latham Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000
Email: lat...@ucar.edu or john.l...@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429
or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002
http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham
________________________________________
From: Stephen Salter [S.Sa...@ed.ac.uk]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:04 PM
To: John Latham
Cc: John Nissen; Sam Carana; Malcolm Light; Graham Innes; Jon Hughes
Subject: Cloud clearing beams

John and John

I mentioned the possibility of winter cloud clearance over the Arctic
by means of electromagnetic radiation along the lines suggested by
Russian rain makers. When I was last in Abu Dhabi I was asked about
Russian work there. I saw some bits of kit out in the desert but could
not get any details. I can see that a transmission with a half wave
length which was equal to the separation of a pair of ice crystals might
make them attract one another and that, in a random soup of crystals,
many would by chance hit the sweet separation distance. But I have no
idea about the power level needed to make them collide. The surface
tension forces on small water drops are immensely strong and the Weber
number for collision has be over one but less than 12 to make then
coalesce. Ice crystals might lock together more easily.

The most respectable reference I have been able to trace is at

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/electric-rainmaking-technology-gets-mexicos-blessing

IEEE will not have published many articles about snake oil. However
this was back in 2004 and it they had the funding indicated and it had
worked we should have heard more about it since then.

However there are a fragments dated 2011 at

http://fgservices1947.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/rainmakerits-electrical/

and

http://www.livescience.com/10398-rainmaking-middle-eastern-desert-success-scam.html

some of which is a rehash of IEEE. Hartmut Grassl is a real person ex
Max Planck. Perhaps someone could get an opinion from him.

Stephen

Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design
Institute for Energy Systems
School of Engineering
Mayfield Road
University of Edinburgh EH9 3JL
Scotland
Tel +44 131 650 5704
Mobile 07795 203 195
www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

John Latham
Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000
Email: lat...@ucar.edu or john.l...@manchester.ac.uk
Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429
or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002
http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham

[Michael Hayes]

Hi Folks,

 

 

I have been looking into Electromagnetic Forcing (EF) as it may be related to mesospheric clouds for some time. Electromagnetic forcing does not work with low tropospheric clouds (which already have a large mix of electron/ions....ie.good electrical balance).  

 

Yet, mesospheric cloud formations do seem to be populated primarily by positive ions and thus may be subject to direct EF. Mesospheric clouds/polar stratospheric clouds/noctlucent clouds are at an altitude which precludes a large population of negative ions from the surface being lifted up into the cloud base(s). Thus, a significant and permanent imbalance between electron and positive ion concentrations can possably be exploited.

 

Please see the following (I offer this for those folks other than Dr. Latham...I am sure he is well aware of this information):

The upper mesosphere and lower thermosphere: a review of experiment and theory

 By Roberta M. Johnson, T. L. Killeen http://books.google.com/books?id=4ioY2Wo_560C&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=ion+charge,+mesospheric+clouds&source=bl&ots=rddrSYRRm8&sig=pHdzVdmChAOb5XVq2zID0z05zpw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f4oDT4L0L6j8iQK28u3sBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ion%20charge%2C%20mesospheric%20clouds&f=false

 

Page 206, sec. 6;

 

"Since negative ions are not expected to exist in significant numbers at mesopause altitudes, detection of such a permanent imbalance between electron and positive-ion concentrations would be a powerful argument in support of the analysis presented here"

 

To reduce this type of cloud structure(s) through EF would offer both short wave SRM and possibly long wave O3 protection. As Dr. Latham correctly points out, EF of the mesospheric region has the sizable issue of scale. 

 

I have, at a vary preliminary level, looked into the use of a large fleet of specialized blimps which could exploit the electrical imbalance within meseospheric clouds on an on going time scale. I personally believe it is possible to reduce the volume of these high clouds to a degree which can make a marked difference, yet, it would be a Billion dollar(+) per year effort.

 

The Mechanics:

 

Simply put, by rotating 2 blimp envelopes (of dissimilar material) against each other, the static charge created will attract the local ambient ions to the envelopes. The resulting build up of frost upon the envelopes is then mechanically compressed within the mutual envelope contact area and, along with the friction between the 2 envelopes, the resulting "compressed slush" is ejected from the craft.

 

This may be the only possible approach as; any introduction of an attractive charge will cause ambient material build up upon the static charge generator (craft) and that build up will need to be continually removed and all this needs to be done on a very large and on going scale. Harnessing multiple blimps together is the only practical means I can conceive of to accomplish EF of meseospheric clouds. A large fleet of automated craft working both polar regions as a "swarm" is within current technical means. Such upper atmospheric swarms could have secondary uses.   

 

If anyone is interested in the details of such a concept or can possibly offer a more elegant means, please let me know.

 

Thanks,

 

Michael 

    

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group.
To post to this group, send email to geoengi...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.

--

Michael Hayes

360-708-4976

http://www.voglerlake.com