Super-Insulated Geodesic Dome

[TaffGoch]

Super-Insulated Geodesic Dome

NEEM -- North Greenland Eemian ice-core drilling project

http://cms.ku.dk/nat-sites/nbi-sites/cik/neem/

Photo gallery has many high-resolution images that provide insight into the construction materials/methods for the dome.

A frame, assembled of large-diameter conduit, provides the "skeleton" for screwing on SIPs(Structural Insulated Panels.) In a few photos, it's apparent that spray foam was used to glue/seal the joints between panels, as they were being installed. The outer weather covering appears to be rubber or rubber-composite, applied with glue and staples.

Three "stories" inside, with an additional cupola on top. All the pre-manufactured parts were flown in, and assembled by the drilling team members.
________________________

On a related note, SIPsmart ...
http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html
...is the only company, of which I'm acquainted, that uses SIPs in dome construction.

It's readily apparent that they also use SketchUp to model their design ideas:
http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html

SIPsmart is located in Lawrence, Kansas. Their website provides plenty of detailed technical info/specs for building with SIPs. While they produce "ARCX" domes (patented, 2007,) they produce "typical" home designs, as well (predominately?)

-Taff

[Ken G. Brown]

I've often thought that torch-on asphalt roofing would make a pretty good weather break.
I've seen some on a flat, sloped roof that had copper as the outer surface, very expensive but looked pretty nice in the end with that weathered cooper look.
What they used looks somewhat like it but maybe not torched?
Wonder how their's will last in high wind conditions?

Ken G. Brown

At 4:38 PM -0600 1/9/10, TaffGoch apparently wrote:
>Super-Insulated Geodesic Dome
>
>NEEM -- North Greenland Eemian ice-core drilling project
>

><http://cms.ku.dk/nat-sites/nbi-sites/cik/neem/>http://cms.ku.dk/nat-sites/nbi-sites/cik/neem/

>
>Photo gallery has many high-resolution images that provide insight into the construction materials/methods for the dome.
>
>A frame, assembled of large-diameter conduit, provides the "skeleton" for screwing on SIPs(Structural Insulated Panels.) In a few photos, it's apparent that spray foam was used to glue/seal the joints between panels, as they were being installed. The outer weather covering appears to be rubber or rubber-composite, applied with glue and staples.
>
>Three "stories" inside, with an additional cupola on top. All the pre-manufactured parts were flown in, and assembled by the drilling team members.
>________________________
>
>On a related note, SIPsmart ...

><http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html>http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html

>...is the only company, of which I'm acquainted, that uses SIPs in dome construction.
>
>It's readily apparent that they also use SketchUp to model their design ideas:

><http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html>http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html

[TaffGoch]

The NEEM dome was assembled at the beginning of the 2008 drilling
season, and was used throughout 2008 and 2009. The wind and cold is
pretty fierce up there, but I didn't read any accounts of problems
with the dome's "sheet" covering, regardless of what it's made of.
Maybe, the residents were out every week, applying more staples, but I
saw no such evidence.

A rubber water barrier would be pretty ugly on a residence. It
apparently works satisfactorily for snow and ice, but I wonder whether
wind-driven rain would be adequately restricted. I'd rather trust a
"monolithic" application of the sprayed-on elastomeric prodcut, "Hydro-
Stop"
http://www.hydro-stop.com/PRODUCTS.html

Taff

[Ken G. Brown]

I often thought that panels made with white expanded polystyrene would make good domes, as opposed to using the environmentally terribly unfriendly urethane as I understand is normally used. I also understand that expanded polystyrene is much more environmentally friendly. Please correct me if I am mistaken about these comments.
A local to me supplier of expanded polystyrene:
<http://www.beaverplastics.com/>

Questions:

In a cold climate, would you still need vapor barrier on the inside of the panels?

Does using SIP methodology eliminate the need for ventilation under the outer skin or can you still end up with moisture transmission through the polystyrene with resulting moisture/freezing/mold/delamination problems?

What are the best products or methods for attaching plywood or metal onto polystyrene? I have heard that concrete attachs itself to polystyrene so that pulling apart breaks the polystyrene before breaking the bond.

Anyone have first hand experiences to relate?

Thx
Ken G. Brown

[Ken G. Brown]

Does Hydro-stop have any amount of vapor transmission or will it totally stop and trap all moisture transmission resulting in moisture accumulation under the outer cold surface. Moisture issues are one of my biggest concerns.

Ken G. Brown

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[TaffGoch]

It's my understanding that SIPs don't need either, a vapor barrier or
venting. I would think that there's plenty of research, past &
present, on the longevity of SIP construction, considering vapor and
venting.

I have no personal experience building with SIPs (but I'm considering
it.) The foam is apparently sprayed on/in during construction of the
panels, and adheres to the panels (and 2x edges, if used,) providing
the "structure" of the completed panel. Now that there are several
other spray-on expanding foam products available, they may have less-
objectionable properties, compared to polyurethane. Obviously,
whatever's inside, if water gets to the outer OSB sheet-goods, it will
rot. The outer weather-proofing application had better be a good one
(but, that's true of any roof.)

Hydro-Stop stops ALL water, and is used for pools and fish ponds, even
though that wasn't its original purpose. (It's non-toxic to plants and
fish.) I've seen it applied to cinder-block, used to construct above-
ground fish ponds -- no sheet-membrane liner required. It's also
marketed as a repair product for coating old, cracked, concrete
swimming pools. It's properties of flexibility, UV-resistence and fire-
resistence (fire-proof?) are also heavily advertised.

[Gerry in Quebec]

SIPsmart falsely claims to have invented what they call the "geodesic
triacontahedron". Here's an item from the company website:

"Mathematics Professor Brigitte Servatius worked with us to develop
the complex mathematical model from which the ARCX® geometry began.
The skill and accuracy of her work enables us to design three
dimensional ARCX® parts to an 8 decimal tolerance. Dr. Servatius has
named this new Platonic dual the Geodesic Triacontahedron. This figure
has never existed before."

(From: http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/geo.html)

As I understand the situation, this claim of originality is also
included in an application for a US patent (patent application
publication no. US2007/0163185 A1, July 19, 2007). So I challenged
company owner Michael Morley(http://www.sipsmart.com/contact/
michael.html)
and Prof. Brigitte Servatius, saying this part of their work wasn't
novel. Morley responded, admitting the geometry might not be original.
However, he didn't then alter the claims on his website. (I never got
a response from mathematician Servatius.)

The geometry of their SIP dome is simply the planar version of a
Schwarz triangle (K.H.A. Schwarz, 19th centrury mathematician,
1843-1921), and is well documented as the first stage (basic triacon
division) in generating a class II, 2v icosa geodesic sphere/dome. So,
for me, the "prior art" clearly demonstrated this part of their patent
application should be tossed out the window.

Here's a bit from Wikipedia on the obligations of patent applicants,
to the USPTO at least, regarding prior art that has been brought to
their attention:

"Duty of disclosure: In the United States, inventors and their patent
agents or attorneys are required by law to submit any references they
are aware of to the United States Patent and Trademark Office that may
be material to the patentability of the claims in a patent application
they have filed. The patent examiner will then determine if the
references qualify as "prior art" and may then take them into account
when examining the patent application. If the attorney/agent or
inventor fails to properly disclose the potentially relevant
references they are aware of, then a patent can be found invalid for
inequitable conduct."

(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art#Duty_of_disclosure)

It would be great to see the spread of good dome building technology
that gets rid of thermal bridging. But this kind of progress shouldn't
be wrapped in false claims of ingenuity. I'm copying this to Mr.
Morley in case he's wondering why his ears are burning.

Gerry Toomey in Quebec, Canada

....
> On a related note, SIPsmart ...http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html

[Biagio Di Carlo]

There is a sperical version of the geodesic triaconta on fig. N. 7 of
POPKO 'Geodesics' ,
and on pag. 10 of DB2.

Biagio Di Carlo

[TaffGoch]

 

I noticed the fallacious claim when I first visited their site. I was going to check Fuller's books, as I seem to recall AT LEAST one drawing that depicts that subdivision. In fact, one of the reasons Fuller liked the triacon subdivision was because it could be easily truncated to fit "rectangular" structures.

 

Specious claim:

[TaffGoch]

Ken's questions:

> In a cold climate, would you still need vapor barrier on the inside of  the panels?

If warm, moist air never "touches" a cold surface, condensation can't
occur. The underside of the exterior OSB will be the same temperature
as the outside temp, since the insulation is preventing the interior
warm air from coming in contact. This is why Canadian building codes
require vapor barrier on the interior [warm] side of any installed
insulation -- to keep warm moist air from contacting the outer
sheathing. You also don't want "wet" insulation. Polyurethane and
polystyrene are comprised of "sealed" cells, so they can't transmit,
or absorb, moisture, whether liquid or vapor.

> Does using SIP methodology eliminate the need for ventilation under the outer skin or can you still end up with moisture transmission through the polystyrene with resulting moisture/freezing/mold/delamination problems?

With SIPs, the insulation IS the vapor barrier. While SIPs currently
use polyurethane insulation, polystyrene has the same vapor-barrier
qualities (e.g.; styrofoam cups for your hot coffee.) The only problem
I could forsee, regarding constructing your own SIPs, would be
COMPLETELY sealing the panel, so that no air can leak through, around
the edges of the foam, to contact the outer (cold) sheathing. This
applies to "building" your own SIPs with pre-formed/cut polystyrene
panels, rather than the polystyrene being expanded during SIP
manufacture.

> What are the best products or methods for attaching plywood or metal onto polystyrene? I have heard that concrete attachs itself to polystyrene so that pulling apart breaks the polystyrene before breaking the bond.

I'd suspect that many contractor-quality glues are available for
"mechanically" attaching plywood + styrene. This wouldn't, however,
prevent (moist) air leakage anywhere the glue doesn't block it.
__________________

When I first saw posts about Hydro-Stop, and their website videos,
demonstrating spray-on techniques, I thought that building a dome
strictly out of styrofoam, then spraying with Hydro-Stop, would be a
great DIY project. I'd probably still spray a vapor barrier on the
inside. Using just styrofoam and Hydro-Stop would be water proof (with
nothing to rot,) but I question its structural weight-bearing
capacity.

Spraying the outside with Grancrete, however, would provide a much
stronger shell. Grancrete is also purported to be waterproof, and can
be sprayed on thick. I still don't think it would meet building codes,
though, since there are no "structural" elements (i.e.; no "re-bar".)
I would hope that there have been tests of Grancrete's load-bearing
capacity, but they may not be marketing it for anything but a surface
treatment/application.

That's why I was so intrigued by the NEEM dome's construction -- they
use a rather large diameter conduit for structural support, and screw
the SIPs to the exterior of the framework. Even though the "S" in SIP
stands for "structural," the NEEM dome isn't employ them for structure
-- just for insulation and sheathing.

Taff

[Ken G. Brown]

At 3:51 PM -0800 1/10/10, TaffGoch apparently wrote:
>Ken's questions:
>
>> In a cold climate, would you still need vapor barrier on the inside of the panels?
>
>If warm, moist air never "touches" a cold surface, condensation can't
>occur. The underside of the exterior OSB will be the same temperature
>as the outside temp, since the insulation is preventing the interior
>warm air from coming in contact. This is why Canadian building codes
>require vapor barrier on the interior [warm] side of any installed
>insulation -- to keep warm moist air from contacting the outer
>sheathing. You also don't want "wet" insulation. Polyurethane and
>polystyrene are comprised of "sealed" cells, so they can't transmit,
>or absorb, moisture, whether liquid or vapor.
>
>> Does using SIP methodology eliminate the need for ventilation under the outer skin or can you still end up with moisture transmission through the polystyrene with resulting moisture/freezing/mold/delamination problems?
>
>With SIPs, the insulation IS the vapor barrier. While SIPs currently
>use polyurethane insulation, polystyrene has the same vapor-barrier
>qualities (e.g.; styrofoam cups for your hot coffee.)

I'm wondering if the foam indeed is an adequate vapor barrier, or over time whether the foam might become water saturated and create problems, especially in freezing conditions.
Vapor transmission is also an important consideration in reverse in air conditioning climates. Vapor travels from the warm to the cooler where it condenses because the cooler temperature air once at the dew point cannot hold as much water.

> The only problem
>I could forsee, regarding constructing your own SIPs, would be
>COMPLETELY sealing the panel, so that no air can leak through, around
>the edges of the foam, to contact the outer (cold) sheathing. This
>applies to "building" your own SIPs with pre-formed/cut polystyrene
>panels, rather than the polystyrene being expanded during SIP
>manufacture.
>
>> What are the best products or methods for attaching plywood or metal onto polystyrene? I have heard that concrete attachs itself to polystyrene so that pulling apart breaks the polystyrene before breaking the bond.
>
>I'd suspect that many contractor-quality glues are available for
>"mechanically" attaching plywood + styrene. This wouldn't, however,
>prevent (moist) air leakage anywhere the glue doesn't block it.
>__________________
>
>When I first saw posts about Hydro-Stop, and their website videos,
>demonstrating spray-on techniques, I thought that building a dome
>strictly out of styrofoam, then spraying with Hydro-Stop, would be a
>great DIY project. I'd probably still spray a vapor barrier on the
>inside. Using just styrofoam and Hydro-Stop would be water proof (with
>nothing to rot,) but I question its structural weight-bearing
>capacity.

You can order foam panels with various densities and I think the foam could be strong enough depending on the size of the structure of course.
Joints most likely would be the limiting factor.

>Spraying the outside with Grancrete, however, would provide a much
>stronger shell. Grancrete is also purported to be waterproof, and can
>be sprayed on thick.

Does anyone here have first hand experience with grancrete? A couple years back I tried to get a sample bag but did not have alocal supplier and the closest US guy didn't want to send over the border. I temporarily put that on the back burner.

>I still don't think it would meet building codes,
>though, since there are no "structural" elements (i.e.; no "re-bar".)

If you get engineering stamps for the structures, that should work for convincing building code people.

>I would hope that there have been tests of Grancrete's load-bearing
>capacity, but they may not be marketing it for anything but a surface
>treatment/application.
>
>That's why I was so intrigued by the NEEM dome's construction -- they
>use a rather large diameter conduit for structural support, and screw
>the SIPs to the exterior of the framework. Even though the "S" in SIP
>stands for "structural," the NEEM dome isn't employ them for structure
>-- just for insulation and sheathing.

Yes, an interesting technique. I'm wondering exactly how they attached the panels to the members. It was not clear to me in the quick look I took at the pics. Did you actually see evidence of screwing them on to the tubing?
An interesting method I recently read about for permanently attaching panels to metal members is to run a large bolt or nail through the panel just beside the metal member, clamping securely and then spot welding it onto the member.

Ken G. Brown

>Taff

[TaffGoch]

I'm wondering if the foam indeed is an adequate vapor barrier, or over time whether the foam might become water saturated and create problems, especially in freezing conditions.

 

Big polystyrene foam blocks are used to support floating docks/piers, lasting for decades. They DON'T absorb water/moisture. They take quite a beating, and they're not covered in any protective sheathing, yet they still don't absorb (so, it's NOT an applied sealant coating.)

 

Vapor transmission is also an important consideration in reverse in air conditioning climates.

 

Don't I know it! I grew up in Baton Rouge, but now live in central Illinois. Down in the humid south, the vapor barrier goes on the outside of insulation. In the mid-west, the vapor barrier goes on the inside. On the TV series, "Holmes on Homes," the host says, "...the vapor barrier always goes on the warm side...." As you say, the warm side is generally the moist side, so I'd rephrase the quote, "...always goes on the wet side."

 

I'm wondering exactly how they attached the panels to the members. It was not clear to me in the quick look I took at the pics. Did you actually see evidence of screwing them on to the tubing?

 

They used electrical conduit clamps, bolted all the way through to the exterior. In one photo, you can see a guy drilling the hole, from the outside.

[Blair Wolfram]

Both interior EMT straps and drilling through from the exterior were
methods used to attach the SIP panels to the frame. The interior
straps had screws that reached all the way through 8" to the exterior
plywood panel. This held the panel in place, but didn't have near the
grip that the exterior screws drilled from outside into the steel
frame held.

>  NEEM_interior[2].jpg
> 179KViewDownload
>
>  NEEM_interior[1].jpg
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>
>  NEEM_build[1].jpg
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>
>  NEEM_build[2].jpg
> 115KViewDownload

[Blair Wolfram]

The NEEM Dome was manufactured and built in Greenland by Dome
Incorporated from Minneapolis, MN, USA. http://www.domeincorporated.com

The payload was 45,000 pounds, and was flown in on C-130 cargo planes
with skiis for ice instead of wheels.

On Jan 9, 4:38 pm, TaffGoch <taffg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Super-Insulated Geodesic Dome
>
> NEEM -- North Greenland Eemian ice-core drilling project
>
> http://cms.ku.dk/nat-sites/nbi-sites/cik/neem/
>

> Photo gallery has many high-resolution images that provide insight into the
> construction materials/methods for the dome.
>
> A frame, assembled of large-diameter conduit, provides the "skeleton" for
> screwing on SIPs(Structural Insulated Panels.) In a few photos, it's
> apparent that spray foam was used to glue/seal the joints between panels, as
> they were being installed. The outer weather covering appears to be rubber
> or rubber-composite, applied with glue and staples.
>
> Three "stories" inside, with an additional cupola on top. All the
> pre-manufactured parts were flown in, and assembled by the drilling team
> members.
> ________________________
>

> On a related note, SIPsmart ...http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html
> ...is the only company, of which I'm acquainted, that uses SIPs in dome
> construction.
>
> It's readily apparent that they also use SketchUp to model their design
> ideas:http://www.sipsmart.com/dome/design.html
>
> SIPsmart is located in Lawrence, Kansas. Their website provides plenty of
> detailed technical info/specs for building with SIPs. While they produce
> "ARCX" domes (patented, 2007,) they produce "typical" home designs, as well
> (predominately?)
>
> -Taff
>

>  IMG_4790_sml.jpg
> 48KViewDownload
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>
>  main.png
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>
>  20080620_CB_sml.jpg
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>  20080805-Tim05_sml.jpg
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[sipspert]

My congratulations to Blair, that is an awesome feat to build this
structure in a remote site in trying conditions. It is a beautiful
thing. I have never claimed to be the only company using SIPs for
domes so please don't accuse me of that. The fact that the math
calculations that we produced had been done previously does not
discount our patent application. My apologies to Mr. Plato and Mr.
Schwarz but it is a moot point. The point is about furthering the
idea of geodesic structures to the building community. When we talked
before you went to Greenland you expressed concern about our
engineering. We now have a structural engineer's stamp on our base
design to help get past building departments' requirements. The point
about vapor barriers is an important one. They should always go on
the warm side of a wall or roof section. In the case of SIPs in a
northern climate that is the inside. Experienced builders in the SIP
industry will use redundant systems to insure that no warm, moist air
from the interior reacheds the vulnerable exterior skin. First we
apply either a 1-part or a 2-part expanjding foam in between all foam-
to foam conditions. Often there is also a water based panel mastic
that is applied to the splines or foam to wood conditions. Next we
apply a peel and stick SIP tape to the inside of all seams and corners
in the building. It is interesting to note that in Minnesota their
code requires that a roof structure use a "cold roof" approach to
create an airspace between top sheathing and the exterior. All
assemblies except SIPs roofs that is. The reason is as stated
earlier- no radiant heat or cold will penetrate the SIP section to
cause any condensation. We look at it like building a beer cooler,
the inside is the inside and the outside is the outside- kept
separate.

I would like to attach a sketchup model of a building design we have
for a full sphere but I am new here and cant find the way to attach
the file. Any suggestions?

Michael Morley

[TaffGoch]

Michael,

 

If you use your email account to post your message to the group, you can attach a model, PDFs, images, etc., to your email.

 

Email to: geodes...@googlegroups.com ...

 

... using the "subject" line of the discussion to which you wish to add a post. In the case of this particular discussion, that would be...

 

Super-Insulated Geodesic Dome

 

Those are the only two criteria you must get right: 1) email address, and 2) subject line.

________________________

 

In case you are starting a new discussion, entirely, you can use any subject line you wish. (As long as it isn't the same as a previously-used subject line. If you do that, it will be attached to an existing discussion; not starting an new one, as intended.)

 

This trick works for any, and all, Google Groups.

 

Taff

[TaffGoch]

Michael,

I have a question for you. Is the interior surface your SIP (OSB?)
sprayed with some kind of sealant (to which you tape, when taping
seams)? Or, does the foam insulation, itself, serve as the vapor
barrier?

Taff

[TaffGoch]

Yesterday, a new document was uploaded to scribd.com, by Natural Spaces Domes.

 

Venting and condensation (in cold climates) are given a few pages.

 

"All About Domes" scribd document:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25174022/All-About-Domes

 

Natural Spaces Domes website:

http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com/

 

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

MSNBC video, on the NEEM ice-core drilling project, showing just what
they're up to. The "dome" is glimpsed in several of the exterior
shots. (No interior dome views, though.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/vp/34050658

-Taff

[Blair Wolfram]

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/vp/34050658

If you let this video play past the story conclusion, another video begins from NEEM. The temperature in the core drill trench is a constant -30 F.

The camp had mandatory evacuation August 15, about the first day the sun sets, even though on the first day it sets only for a few minutes. Reportedly today the temperature is -80 F and in total darkness. Note the 2 red ribbed dome tents in the video. These were the first structures built in camp used initially as a kitchen and visitors quarters. The first buildings to arrive in camp were fiberglass domes (not seen in the video) pulled on sleds by a Piston Bully across the icecap. These rigid domes were used for sleeping on the trek to NEEM from NorthGrip Camp in 2007, and for the field leader's quarters once they reached NEEM.

 

Blair

http://www.domeincorporated.com 

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