Raleigh frame sizes

[Tony Hicks]

I've been lurking around this wonderful group for awhile now and
admiring everyone's devotion to classic 3 speeds. I've got a not-very-
rare 1975 Raleigh Sports (pic here: http://bit.ly/4SYonO) that I've
bastardized with Sogreni handgrips and a B72 saddle though I've kept
the original mattress saddle and black handgrips. I'd love to get my
hands on an old Superbe or DL-1. The trouble is that I keep coming
across 21" frames which I believe are too small for me. I'm only 5'10"
and have a trouser inseam of about 33" but I find the 21" frame really
cramped compared to my hybrid bike. The Raleigh is fine for quick
trips to the liquor store (hence the Wald basket), but I can't imagine
riding around Lake Pepin or any other lake on it. I wondered what size
of bike others were riding and if this is just something in the design
that I have to get used to or if I need a larger frame, say a 22" or
23" (does such a thing even exist?). I've got the seat at a height
where I can just reach the ground, but still, it feels as though my
knees are coming up around my chin (slight exaggeration) when I
peddle and the whole thing just looks small to me. And why the
shortage of larger frame sizes? Here's yet another (local) ad for a
vintage Raleigh, but again with a 21" frame:
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/bik/1541946230.html. By the way, I
understand that my particular Sports is a Canadian built (or
assembled) one. The headbadge says Nottingham, but I'm told that the
Canadian models didn't have the white panel on the rear mudguard. Can
anyone here confirm this?

[Alan Lloyd]

Nice-looking bike. I wouldn't say that replacing the matress saddle with a B72 was bastardizing it, as the B72 was often original equipment on the Raleigh Sports - generally the older ones, though?

A 1977 assembled-in-Canada example I've seen (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/3285735992/) actually said so in the sticker on the seat-tube just above the bottom-bracket - you appear to have a sticker there, what does it say?

The gent's Raleigh Sports came with 21" or 23" frames, but it seems that the smaller is more common? I'm about 5'10" with a 30" inside leg and just about fit the smaller frame, but the larger one is better for me - with your (much) longer legs I imagine that this would definitely be the case for you! We'd likely look an odd pair standing next to one another?

The lady's Raleigh Sports came with 19" or 21" frames, with a few 23" frames offered in later years - but they are a bit harder to find ...

Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Tony Hicks <hicks...@gmail.com> wrote:

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "Gentleman Cyclist" group.
> To post to this group, send email to gentlema...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> gentlemancycli...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/gentlemancyclist?hl=en.
>
>
>

[cheesy]

I'm between you and Alan and would be much more comfortable on a 23"
frame but I got around the issue by using a longer seat post. I've
come across a few Raleigh posts that are in the neighborhood of a foot
long. The stems seem to be long enough to compensate for the longer
post.

On Jan 19, 8:07 am, Alan Lloyd <ad...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nice-looking bike. I wouldn't say that replacing the matress saddle with a B72 was bastardizing it, as the B72 was often original equipment on the Raleigh Sports - generally the older ones, though?
>
> A 1977 assembled-in-Canada example I've seen (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/3285735992/) actually said so in the sticker on the seat-tube just above the bottom-bracket - you appear to have a sticker there, what does it say?
>
> The gent's Raleigh Sports came with 21" or 23" frames, but it seems that the smaller is more common? I'm about 5'10" with a 30" inside leg and just about fit the smaller frame, but the larger one is better for me - with your (much) longer legs I imagine that this would definitely be the case for you! We'd likely look an odd pair standing next to one another?
>
> The lady's Raleigh Sports came with 19" or 21" frames, with a few 23" frames offered in later years - but they are a bit harder to find ...
>
> Alan Lloyd
> Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.
>

> --- On Sun, 1/17/10, Tony Hicks <hicks.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Alan Lloyd]

Yusuf on our 23" Raleigh Superbe ...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/3497694205/in/set-72157617564101465/
- with a pretty damn long seat-post, he is well north of 6'!

This guy would really have a problem, though ...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/3497699121/in/set-72157617564101465/

Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Tue, 1/19/10, cheesy <workino...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Ian and Mary Lindridge]

Interesting colour on your bicycle. Haven't seen that here but that's not
much to say with my limited experience in English bikes.

Large frame -- 23" -- Superbes exist. I have a 1971, Raleigh green, pump,
Brooks saddle & dynohub. I'm 5'8" in the morning and the bike fits well. A
little awkward to get one foot down at a stop but not something I worry
about. I have some 23" and 21" frame bicycles and also with me, the 21" is
cramped. That's perhaps because my modern bikes are less upright riding
position which I'm used to; the English then feel more cramped tho' not
uncomfortable.

I have a beautiful red men's Dunelt in the 23" and love it. Good ride with
Col de la Vie tyres, & smashing colour. By the way all my English have 23
tooth sprockets and my two 5 speeds have 25 tooth. They are very rideable up
the St. Croix River bluffs. Harris Cyclery have 23 tooth sprockets for
$14.95 U.S. and Mark Stonich at Bikesmith Design has the 25's.

Ian Lindridge
Cottage Grove Minnesota

Ps: many 21" bikes on The 3 Speed Tour, but if you can make it there are
plenty of bikes to loan in the 23" size I'm sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:gentlema...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Hicks
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:37 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: [Gentleman Cyclist] Raleigh frame sizes

[Tony Hicks]

I think I have my seat post up high enough. Actually, it's not really a height problem so much as a top tube length problem. When my knees come up they come very close to the handlebar grips. I'll try raising the handlebar stem a bit to see if that helps but I'll keep looking on Craigslist in the meantime for a 23" frame.

Alan: Doh! I just checked the sticker at the bottom of the seat tube and you're right. Plain as day it says "Manufactured in Canada by Raleigh Industries of Canada under license to...." Funny, I'd checked the SA hub for a date ('75) and used Sheldon Brown's page to figure out the frame date (actually '76 not '75) but never bothered to read that sticker. Do you know, though, if the solid mudguard colour (ie. no white panel) was specific to the Canadian models? Whenever I see Craigslist pics of old Raleighs I always check to see if the white panel is on the mudguard, thus (I thought) indicating that the bike came from England.

Raleigh seemed to have a close relationship with Canada. In addition to Raleighs being built under license here, the department store, Eatons, often sold private brand Raleighs usually under the "Glider" name. Sometimes, as with my beloved Fastback 100, they just changed the model name and left off any reference to Raleigh or Glider. The Fastback 100 was a SA 3spd bike that was called the Raleigh Chopper in England.

Here's a CCM Imperial which is a dead ringer knock-off of a Raleigh Sports: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/bik/1559368854.html This bike was built in the Toronto CCM factory but uses a SA 3spd hub and what appears to be a Brooks mattress saddle. Again, though, it's a 21" frame! Blurg.

[Alan Lloyd]

I can see that you would be a bit cramped on a 21" frame, I feel a tad close to the bars and I've got short legs!

By-the-way, following on from Ian's point about having a 23" Superbe, I have a 23" Sports as well as a couple of 21" examples.

I hadn't noticed that the assembled-in-Canada example I had didn't have the white patch on the rear mudguard. It would make sense that it wasn't included as it is satisfying a British (pre-war?) regulation. I think there should be something about this in the archives, I remember Jon posting about it some time ago.

I think it is interesting that Raleigh developed the Chopper for the American market but never enjoyed much success with it here, then made out like gang-busters back home in the British market.

We brought our daughter's Raleigh Chopper back over with us when we returned from a trip home to the UK a few years ago. My son still rides it around - drawing admiring comments - from time to time.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/4288328368/

Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Tony Hicks <hicks...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tony Hicks]

Beautiful Chopper!! I'm so glad you've hung on to it. There's a guy in
the Toronto area who I've met who refurbs old Fastbacks (the Chopper
name never made it here and all of the models were called Fastback or
Mach II for the 5 spd version) and sells them for a ton of money! I
actually accosted some kid in the park awhile ago (I'm 50, he was
about 12) and demanded to know where he got his pristine red Fastback
100. Poor kid. In my excitement to see one I think I seemed like I was
accusing him of stealing it when all I really meant to ask was how he
came to have such a collector's item. He literally stammered "It's my
dad's! It's my dad's!" I told him to congratulate his dad and to make
sure he took care of it. The kid thought I was nuts, I'm sure.

Great pics of the Tweed ride! I take it that's Chicago? As far as I
know, no one here has organized a Tweed ride yet. I guess I'll have to
do it. I've also been looking for a suitable local place to hold a
"Lake Pepin-style" tour but until I sort out my gangly legs issue, I
don't want to organize anything too tasking. VIA rail (our local train
service) has started up a bike train service in the past year which
runs out to the Niagara wine region just west of Toronto. It would be
a beautiful place to hold a 3 speed tour, and I think after a couple
of winery visits I'd probably stop worrying about the size of my
bike. :)

On Jan 19, 11:02 am, Alan Lloyd <ad...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can see that you would be a bit cramped on a 21" frame, I feel a tad close to the bars and I've got short legs!
>
> By-the-way, following on from Ian's point about having a 23" Superbe, I have a 23" Sports as well as a couple of 21" examples.
>
> I hadn't noticed that the assembled-in-Canada example I had didn't have the white patch on the rear mudguard. It would make sense that it wasn't included as it is satisfying a British (pre-war?) regulation. I think there should be something about this in the archives, I remember Jon posting about it some time ago.
>
> I think it is interesting that Raleigh developed the Chopper for the American market but never enjoyed much success with it here, then made out like gang-busters back home in the British market.
>
> We brought our daughter's Raleigh Chopper back over with us when we returned from a trip home to the UK a few years ago. My son still rides it around - drawing admiring comments - from time to time.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/4288328368/
>
> Alan Lloyd
> Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.
>

> > cheesy <workinonitst...@yahoo.com>

[Mark Stonich]

At  1/19/2010 09:35 AM -0600, Ian and Mary Lindridge wrote:

 I have some 23" and 21" frame bicycles

Ian,
Might I ask a favor?  Compare the top tube and chainstay lengths between the 21" and the 23" frames. I only have 21" frames so can't check here. 

and also with me, the 21" is
cramped. That's perhaps because my modern bikes are less upright riding
position which I'm used to; the English then feel more cramped tho' not
uncomfortable.

There are plenty of stems available with more reach and/or height.  You would need a shim to use the stock bars.

At  1/19/2010 06:07 AM -0800, Alan Lloyd wrote:

The gent's Raleigh Sports came with 21" or 23" frames, but it seems that the smaller is more common?

As someone who rides 21", I always seem to be finding 23s. 

I can't say I've seen men's Sports in 19" but I've seen a few Robin Hoods etc.   To get a 19" they lowered the top tube a bit and raised the bottom bracket.   Terry Osell took advantage of the high BB and converted from 26 x 1-3/8" (590-37)
to MTB 26" (559 x 40)

BTW  Since we are on the subject of sizes, AFAIK all the Men's DL-1s were either 22" or 24" and all the Womens DL-1s were 22"

Mark Stonich;
  BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
    5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
         Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                     http://mnhpva.org

[cheesy]

Forgot about the knee/handle bar issue. For whatever reason, my
Superbe feels a bit cramped for a few minutes, then I get use to it.
However, I have a 64 Dunelt Sports that sees much more use than the
Superbe and I replaced the stock stem with 120mm riser stem and that
made all the difference. http://www.flickr.com/photos/21499296@N08/2353310844/
That is a flipped North Road bar with a few extras added for my
comfort.

[Tony Hicks]

I'd also love to know the difference in specs if it's not too much
trouble! I can honestly say I don't think I've come across a single
23" frame since I began looking about a year ago. I know a tall guy
(he's 6'4") who has a Raleigh Sprite that is huge (must be 25" or
26"), but no luck finding 23" models. So, you're very lucky to have
one, let alone a few.

Off topic (hope I don't get banned from the group just as I'm getting
started): here's a page devoted to the Raleigh Chopper/Fastback in
Canada. The Gordie Howe endorsement ("Right out of this world!") makes
me laugh out loud. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/catfoodrob/choppers/models/eatons.html

[Mark Stonich]

At  1/19/2010 08:50 AM -0800, cheesy wrote:

I replaced the stock stem with 120mm riser stem and that
made all the difference. http://www.flickr.com/photos/21499296@N08/2353310844/
That is a flipped North Road bar with a few extras added for my
comfort.

About those "Extras"; 
How do you keep the bar ends from slipping?  Given that they are clamped on a chromed and curved area, it seems likely they would have a poor grip on the bars.    Looks like just the setup for a bike I'm building for my S3X, if/when it ever gets here. 

[Alan Lloyd]

BTW: yes, that IS Owen, wearing the policeman's helmet ...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26361775@N02/4288328368/
- taken a while back, obviously!

[cheesy]

On Jan 19, 11:17 am, Mark Stonich <m...@bikesmithdesign.com> wrote:
> At  1/19/2010 08:50 AM -0800, cheesy wrote:
>
> >I replaced the stock stem with 120mm riser stem and that

> >made all the difference.http://www.flickr.com/photos/21499296@N08/2353310844/

> >That is a flipped North Road bar with a few extras added for my
> >comfort.
>
> About those "Extras";
> How do you keep the bar ends from slipping?  Given that they are
> clamped on a chromed and curved area, it seems likely they would have
> a poor grip on the bars.    Looks like just the setup for a bike I'm
> building for my S3X, if/when it ever gets here.

For whatever reason, they are a perfect fit. They are one of the few
items that didn't get knocked outta whack when the bike and I did our
'ass over teakettle, 30mph downhill dismount' back in 07.

[Ian and Mary Lindridge]

Looks to me that older Owen still rides those small wheeled wonders but at
least has removed the training wheels......

Ian Lindridge

-----Original Message-----
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:gentlema...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lloyd
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:57 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Raleigh frame sizes

--

[Ian and Mary Lindridge]

All these bicycles had identical measurements for top tube & chain stays. Differed in the seat tube length from center of bottom bracket to top of seat tube.

 

1972 Raleigh Superbe – 23”

1967 Raleigh 5 speed Sprite – 23”

1971 Dunelt – 23”

Top tube length along center line from weld at seat tube to where (I guess) the top tube seats in the lug – 21”

Chain stays were 15 ½ “ from where stay would seat in the lug part of the BB shell to end of tube, not including the drop-outs.

1973 Royal Scot – same as above except for 21” seat tube.

Really, I checked 2x. If there is a hue and cry I’ll check again after dinner and I’ll measure wheelbase.

 

Ian of not a frame builder

[Aaron Whaley]

Tony,
Welcome to the group.

Raleigh Sports in the North America market came in 3 sizes AFAIK: 19", 21" (most common), 23". I have both a 21" Sports and a 23" Superbe. The Tourist DL-1 came in 22" and 24". I have heard rumors of 25" Sports/Superbe that apparently was available in the UK at some point in time. I also just acquired a Tourist but won't see or ride it until June. I don't even know what size it is for sure, but is looks the like the 24". I am 6'-2" with long legs but can ride both my regular Raleighs without problems, I even own and ride a Twenty and an RSW Compact. The Twenty and the RSW require longer than stock seat posts. I have no problem with the size on the 23" Superbe. The cockpit is a bit cramped compared to many of the modern designs, but not enough to bother me.

Aaron

[gna]

Welcome to the group, Tony.

I ride a 23" Sports: http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w38/gna_photo/DSCN2223JPG.jpg

I'm somewhere around 5'10" or 5'11", usually wear pants with 32" leg.
I can ride a 21" but it feels a bit small. Like you, I always run
into 21" ones--I have a 21" Robin Hood as well (to be honest, I run
into more Lady's 3-speeds than anything else). I also would like to
find a 23" Superbe, especially in Bronze Green. Keep looking--one
will turn up.

Gary

[Tony Hicks]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Ian and Mary Lindridge <lind...@infionline.net> wrote:

All these bicycles had identical measurements for top tube & chain stays. Differed in the seat tube length from center of bottom bracket to top of seat tube.

 

Hmmmm. For my 21" '76 Raleigh Sports I get a top tube length of 20 1/2" if I measure along the top of the tt and 21" if I measure along the side of the tt (allowing for a little more length at the head tube end going right to where the lug joins the down tube). I get a chain stay length of 15 3/4" if I go right to the tip of the tapered end of the chain stay before the dropout. So, the 21" frame and the 23" frame are either very close or identical (allowing for slight differences in how we measured) in this regard. 

The standover height for my bike is 30 1/2" (top of tt to floor). The ct -- I think it's called ct (centre of bb to top of top tube) -- is approx 19 3/4". In order for those measurements to be smaller than your 23" frames, the down tube would have to be a different length which would account for the extra height. This would also change the geometry of the frame a little, too, would it not? It would mean that the down tube / seat tube angle is a little steeper on the 23" frame ...and soooo the larger frame would seem a little more responsive because of the less relaxed geometry? 

Also, the 23" frame wouldn't seem any less cramped for a tall person than a 21" frame would, if the reach is the same for both frames? If that's the case, then raising the seat post and stem on a 21" frame would accomplish the same thing as moving to a larger frame -- apart from the visuals. Which is what Alan suggested earlier, I think. 

What the hell do I know, though? I was an English major and a math dunce. I'm just very surprised by the top tube being the same length. 

[Tony Hicks]

Thanks Aaron and Gary for the welcome! I laughed when I saw this: "to be honest, I run
into more Lady's 3-speeds than anything else" because my experience has been the same and I've seen some beautiful ladies' models for sale. I've even momentarily contemplated whether or not I could get away with it. In the end I decided not. :)

I'll keep looking I guess, but as per my other message on top tube length, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the 23" isn't the holy grail I thought it would be.

@Gary: that's a very nice Sports you have there. The basket looks familiar. Is that a Carradice bag on the back?

[Aaron Whaley]

Tony,
I am about 250 miles away from my full sized Raleighs at the moment and I have never bothered to measure them, but they feel very similar when riding them other than the 21" requires a bit more aggressive position due to the long seat post and the lower handlebars. FWIW I do ride "step through" and mixte frame bikes too, but getting one in a larger size is all but impossible. I have a 19" Ladies sports that I am currently using as a donor bike. I just inherited a 57cm (22.5") Peugeot  mixte from my sister ( I know that is heresy on here ;-) ) that is one of the largest production mixtes that I am aware of.

Aaron

[Ian and Mary Lindridge]

Buy the lady’s and wear a kilt……like Garth…..or what the hxxl just wear a dress and bonnet……could be The Queen……

 

Ian of it’s late & beginning to write weird stuff

[Tony Hicks]

On Jan 19, 9:26 pm, Aaron Whaley <2whls3s...@gmail.com> wrote:
I just inherited a 57cm (22.5") Peugeot  mixte from my sister ( I
know
> that is heresy on here ;-) ) that is one of the largest production mixtes
> that I am aware of.
>

It's probably too soon for me to be doing any teasing, but does your
Peugeot look like this?

http://planetquirky.com/images/1980puchpathfinder.jpg

Okay, you can throw me off the group list now (no, don't, please!!).

[Tony Hicks]

Actually, I take that back -- that's a pretty darn cool looking bike
and I'd probably ride it!

[gna]

Yes, many lady's bikes out there. Why, my local Craigslist has this
AMF that looks English-bred: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/bik/1535705714.html
I found a 21" Lady's Sports on Craigslist for my wife for $40:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w38/gna_photo/DSCN2273JPG.jpg It
needed some work, but that's the fun, right? I recently found a lady's
19" Triumph in a very pretty blue color for $5. It needs some minor
repairs, too--broken pedal, fender, bent aftermarket chainguard as
well as overhaul--and I've been working on them, as I wanted to give
the bike to my mother, but she's off bikes. Too hard on her back.

Yes, that is a Carradice Barley on the back, bought from Wiggle in the
UK. Wald basket in front for lunchbox/Beer/Wine/Catfood/Milk.
Pletscher Racks on both our bikes, Nashbar Toto basket on my wife's.
Now that I think about, the accessories on the bikes were quite a bit
more than we paid for the bikes themselves.

On Jan 19, 8:15 pm, Tony Hicks <hicks.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Aaron and Gary for the welcome! I laughed when I saw this: "to be
> honest, I run
> into more Lady's 3-speeds than anything else" because my experience has been
> the same and I've seen some beautiful ladies' models for sale. I've even
> momentarily contemplated whether or not I could get away with it. In the end
> I decided not. :)
>
> I'll keep looking I guess, but as per my other message on top tube length,
> I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the 23" isn't the holy grail I thought it
> would be.
>
> @Gary: that's a very nice Sports you have there. The basket looks familiar.
> Is that a Carradice bag on the back?
>

[Alan Lloyd]

That AMF is a Hercules (of Birmingham) but, by this time, they were already owned by Raleigh - so it is basically the same as a Raleigh Sports - with a different fork and without the "westrick" Raleigh-pattern wheel rims. I always rather liked those "space-age" chain-guard ...

Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Wed, 1/20/10, gna <gnar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: gna <gnar...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Raleigh frame sizes
> To: "Gentleman Cyclist" <gentlema...@googlegroups.com>

[Tony Hicks]

Thanks for this, Troy! I think I like the NOS '72 Superbe better, though, and since they're both local pick up only, the New York one would be easier. It's only ten hours away. 

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Troy A. Mayne <t...@dewittross.net> wrote:

Pardon the ebay, but here is a pair of superbes being sold together and
it looks like he is a 23 incher.
http://tinyurl.com/ydq6fyw

-----Original Message-----
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:gentlema...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Hicks

Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:37 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist

Subject: [Gentleman Cyclist] Raleigh frame sizes

I've been lurking around this wonderful group for awhile now and
admiring everyone's devotion to classic 3 speeds. I've got a not-very-
rare 1975 Raleigh Sports (pic here: http://bit.ly/4SYonO) that I've
bastardized with Sogreni handgrips and a B72 saddle though I've kept the
original mattress saddle and black handgrips. I'd love to get my hands
on an old Superbe or DL-1. The trouble is that I keep coming across 21"
frames which I believe are too small for me. I'm only 5'10"
and have a trouser inseam of about 33" but I find the 21" frame really
cramped compared to my hybrid bike. The Raleigh is fine for quick trips
to the liquor store (hence the Wald basket), but I can't imagine riding
around Lake Pepin or any other lake on it. I wondered what size of bike

others were riding and if this is just something in the design that I

have to get used to or if I need a larger frame, say a 22" or 23" (does
such a thing even exist?). I've got the seat at a height where I can
just reach the ground, but still, it feels as though my knees are coming
up around my chin (slight exaggeration)  when I peddle and the whole
thing just looks small to me. And why the shortage of larger frame
sizes? Here's yet another (local) ad for a vintage Raleigh, but again
with a 21" frame:
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/bik/1541946230.html. By the way, I
understand that my particular Sports is a Canadian built (or
assembled) one. The headbadge says Nottingham, but I'm told that the
Canadian models didn't have the white panel on the rear mudguard. Can
anyone here confirm this?

********************************************************************************************************
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure:  To comply with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained herein
(including any attachments), unless specifically stated otherwise, is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purposes of (i)
avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter herein.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

This message is a PRIVATE communication. This message and all attachments are a private communication sent by a law firm and may be
confidential or protected by privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the information contained in or attached to this message is strictly prohibited.  Please notify the sender of the delivery error by replying to this message,
and then delete it from your system.  Thank you.
********************************************************************************************************

[gna]

As an update, I just found a 23" Gentleman's Triumph on my local
Craigslist. 73 8 hub, 36/36 spoking.

I stumbled upon it while searching for Park Tools, so I entered "park"
in the search box:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/bik/1546485868.html

The seller probably would have had better luck if he had listed it as
a vintage Triumph, but I can't complain. May become my winter beater,
unless you pass through St. Paul, Tony, and you want it.

So the 23" are out there, but it takes luck to find them (or any old
English bike).
Gary

On Jan 19, 8:15 pm, Tony Hicks <hicks.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Graham Wilson]

Nice find, and a bargain at forty dollars. I am having the opposite
problem here in the UK; I favour a 21" frame (short legs!), but seem to
only find 23". My Raleigh Wayfarer is 23" and whilst it's not
uncomfortable, I find the 21" James Comet Roadster (identical frame) to
be more comfortable. Maybe you need to fill a container with 21's and
I'll send one filled with 23's!

Graham

[Tony Hicks]

Gary and Graham: you're both killing me.

I have two problems: the aforementioned shortage of 23" frames and the
prices are much higher here, it seems, for old Raleighs, etc. No one
seems to charge less than $150 and if it's in good condition, they
want $200 to $300.

[Graham Wilson]

Prices are going the same way here, although it might just be sellers
chancing their luck. I now source older bikes via Wanted ads on
Cheapcycle and notice boards, although increasingly I am finding frames
only which has lead me to learn to restore bikes from the ground up (and
the dreaded search for 26tpi parts). Here's a photo of the James when I
first found it, kind of crappy condition, and not exactly a bargain at $56!

http://graham.hopto.org/bike/james1.jpg

[Tony Hicks]

You are a much braver man than I am. I don't think -- no, I know that
I don't have the skills to do that kind of restoration.

[Mark Stonich]

At  1/22/2010 03:23 PM -0800, you wrote:

You are a much braver man than I am. I don't think -- no, I know that
I don't have the skills to do that kind of restoration.

No one does. Until they try.  And that bike doesn't look that far gone. 

 There usually isn't any real metalwork involved.  Rarely anything that requires skill.  Mostly elbow grease.  Take it one step at a time.  People who've done it are usually glad do share what they've learned.

[gna]

Yes, a good deal. Sorry to kill you, Tony. Here's a few pics:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w38/gna_photo/P1010001.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w38/gna_photo/P1010002.jpg

My apologies for the busy background.

The bike looks to be in reasonably good shape, with a bit of rust on
the chrome, mostly on the left side of the handlebars. You can see a
bit of it in one of the pictures. The paint looks to be in good
shape, even the white on the back fender. The back tube is punctured,
so I'll have to patch or replace it before I ride it.