S5 Hub Trouble

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gna

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Nov 25, 2019, 6:17:17 PM11/25/19
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I recently started having trouble with my S5 hub this fall.  It has worked well for the past few years, but it started to feel "draggy," and occasionally it seemed to stick, which could cause it to move in the chainstays or the sometimes the chain would pop off.  I took everything apart, except the axle/sun pinions assembly,  regreased/oiled, and reassembled.  The clutch was chipped so I replaced it.  It seemed fine for a few weeks, then started having trouble again.  It was working one day, but the next morning was jammed--I couldn't even roll the bike backwards!

I gave up and hung it up for the winter, but any advice on rebuilding?  I suppose I need to disassemble the axle/sun pinions, but any idea what the problem could be?

Gary

Paulos, Richard G

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Nov 25, 2019, 6:32:06 PM11/25/19
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A common mistake I see is people reassemble AW hubs and adjust the bearings to the left side first. That can shift the entire axle to the left and that takes the sun gear with it which can cause all kinds of trouble. It's not at all obvious as the bits are hidden inside, out of sight. Reading SA's assembly instructions can help get it right.

SA makes those special washers. They are serrated where they meet the frame so the axle won't slide, they have slots instead of holes and shoulders to keep the axle from turning in the frame. Most of the SA axles are flat so they lock to the special washers that lock to the frame. Using just plain round washers won't hold the axle in place and keep it from turning. With any hub that has a sun gear, the axle will want to rotate backwards when you pedal forwards. The sun gear is the anchor for forward torque.

Alloy shell? Those crack, break apart and cause all kinds of trouble.

Also, check the frame for breaks. I've seen bikes where the brass brazing on a chain stay let loose allowing the stay to slide in to the bb shell. If you ever watch the movies at the Raleigh factory, the brass brazing method is a far cry from having a frame custom built. They nail the frames together with a small ring of brass inside, set it in front of a torch for a while and call it good. There is really very little brass holding the lugs in place. A couple years ago, I got a Raleigh where they didn't braze the seat stays to the rear dropouts. Oopsie. Held together with paint at that joint that is normally under compression.

rick


________________________________________
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of gna <gnar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:17 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: [External] [Gentleman Cyclist] S5 Hub Trouble

I recently started having trouble with my S5 hub this fall. It has worked well for the past few years, but it started to feel "draggy," and occasionally it seemed to stick, which could cause it to move in the chainstays or the sometimes the chain would pop off. I took everything apart, except the axle/sun pinions assembly, regreased/oiled, and reassembled. The clutch was chipped so I replaced it. It seemed fine for a few weeks, then started having trouble again. It was working one day, but the next morning was jammed--I couldn't even roll the bike backwards!

I gave up and hung it up for the winter, but any advice on rebuilding? I suppose I need to disassemble the axle/sun pinions, but any idea what the problem could be?

Gary

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sa.washers.jfif

te...@usfamily.net

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Nov 25, 2019, 9:05:45 PM11/25/19
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Hmm. “ Regreased”? Where, exactly, did you grease? I have actually used grease on the bearings in an S5, but, there is a lot going on inside the hub, and I use oil, there. Of late, I lean toward all oil, everywhere, but, have a few on hybrid lube, grease on bearings, oil everywhere else. I do spring for either Mobile One Universal synthetic grease, or, the aircraft spec equivalent, Mobile 28. A non synthetic grease, used inside the hub, would make things interesting in cold weather.

The biggest bug-a-boo I have with mine are the light hair springs being a bit old and weak.

This is not your problem. You seem to have serious mischief going on in there, if you can’t roll the bike backwards. As Rick noted, anti rotation washers, on both sides, are mandatory. Watch your tension on the high/low shift cable, too much will cause it to pop in and out of 2nd gear. Bikesmith details the spring between the shifter and bell crank hack, which improves shift and shift feel.

When you get further into the hub, do tell us what you discover.

Ted

Gary Aslakson

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Nov 25, 2019, 10:05:49 PM11/25/19
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I use grease in the ball bearings in the ball cages and in the right side ball ring.  And tan grease in the dust caps.  OIl everywhere else. I made sure to line up the marked teeth in the planet pinions.  
I set the right hand cone first.  Instructions say not to slacken more than 1/2 turn--mine lined up between 1/4 and 1/2 so I went with that.
Yes I have anti rotation washers.  
It worked really well for several years; I'm really puzzled by this. 

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Luckyrob

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Nov 26, 2019, 12:51:56 PM11/26/19
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This was the case with my S5,1 as well and Rick fixed it on second day of Pepin, the hub was not all way in shell and it worked like a charm after he fixed it. (Thanks again Rick)  The shifters are also a source of lots of problems.  I had NOS dual S/A top tube shifter.  It was impossible to set up the right (3 speed side) as it doesn't click right like typical S/A shifter and Sheldon Brown said not to use them they don't work properly and I agree.  I installed S/A bar end 3 speed or right and friction on left (left side is another story depending on which S series you have and how it is set up but my friction works well.  Sounds like your hub is not set in shell open up left side as said by Rick and shifter could also be problem but those signs are different than what you said.  Good luck, Rob


On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 5:32:06 PM UTC-6, rick-...@uiowa.edu wrote:
A common mistake I see is people reassemble AW hubs and adjust the bearings to the left side first.  That can shift the entire axle to the left and that takes the sun gear with it which can cause all kinds of trouble.  It's not at all obvious as the bits are hidden inside, out of sight.  Reading SA's assembly instructions can help get it right.

SA makes those special washers. They are serrated where they meet the frame so the axle won't slide, they have slots instead of holes and shoulders to keep the axle from turning in the frame.  Most of the SA axles are flat so they lock to the special washers that lock to the frame.  Using just plain round washers won't hold the axle in place and keep it from turning.  With any hub that has a sun gear, the axle will want to rotate backwards when you pedal forwards. The sun gear is the anchor for forward torque.

Alloy shell?  Those crack, break apart and cause all kinds of trouble.

Also, check the frame for breaks.  I've seen bikes where the brass brazing on a chain stay let loose allowing the stay to slide in to the bb shell.  If you ever watch the movies at the Raleigh factory, the brass brazing method is a far cry from having a frame custom built. They nail the frames together with a small ring of brass inside, set it in front of a torch for a while and call it good. There is really very little brass holding the lugs in place.  A couple years ago, I got a Raleigh where they didn't braze the seat stays to the rear dropouts.  Oopsie. Held together with paint at that joint that is normally under compression.

rick


________________________________________
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of gna <gnar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:17 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: [External] [Gentleman Cyclist] S5 Hub Trouble

I recently started having trouble with my S5 hub this fall.  It has worked well for the past few years, but it started to feel "draggy," and occasionally it seemed to stick, which could cause it to move in the chainstays or the sometimes the chain would pop off.  I took everything apart, except the axle/sun pinions assembly,  regreased/oiled, and reassembled.  The clutch was chipped so I replaced it.  It seemed fine for a few weeks, then started having trouble again.  It was working one day, but the next morning was jammed--I couldn't even roll the bike backwards!

I gave up and hung it up for the winter, but any advice on rebuilding?  I suppose I need to disassemble the axle/sun pinions, but any idea what the problem could be?

Gary

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gna

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Apr 27, 2022, 12:52:37 PMApr 27
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As an update for anyone who may be searching for an answer to a similar problem,  I took everything completely apart and discovered the axle was bent.  I was able to purchase a new one from Mike and Benita's store, and reassembled.   It once again works fine. 

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