Converting a Sturmey FW 4 speed to an S5 5 Speed

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Doug

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May 3, 2012, 5:48:17 PM5/3/12
to Gentleman Cyclist
A couple of things the other posts on the subject didn't mention. An
FW mech will fit in a pre-1985 AW (three-speed) shell so if you have a
3-speed you want to make into a 5 speed all you need is to do is put
in the FW guts. (And a good half of the FW parts are the same as the
AW). (You do need the old style FW sun gear to get the top gear to
work)

If you have the short-axle version of the FW without enough threads to
fit a bellcrank you can use the Lauterwasser workaround detailled in
Tony Hadland's "The Sturmey Archer Story" Some MIT guys converted
their FWs to S5s this way even before the S5s appeared. Run the left-
hand shifting cable along the chainstay through a guide or two and
then through a hole in a nut or cable knarp attached to the pushrod
and attach the cable straight behind the dropout. Lauterwasser used a
teardrop-shaped brass washer to attach the cable to (picture in
Sturmey Archer Story). When the cable is tight it pushes in the
pushrod selecting the other sun gear.

There's an example (functional but not elegant) half way down this
page:
http://www.bicyclehub.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=105

There used to be some views of more elegant version on the web of a
1949 Ernie Clements Wrekin Lauterwasser 5-speed conversion....

I converted my '72 Raleigh Sports to a 5 speed this way. It works
quite well without a bellcrank. It's nice to have the wider range of
gears in Seattle...

Graham Wilson

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May 5, 2012, 8:28:01 AM5/5/12
to gentlema...@googlegroups.com
I know and appreciate we're supposed to "suffer for our art", but wouldn't an easier route just be to put a modern RF5 internal in the hub shell? Heaps more reliable, ten minutes to perform, and spare parts not an issue. Being a single cable, all that's then required is a new shifter. The SLS50T5 isn't entirely ugly on an old bike.

Graham, of the won't suffer for art!




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Mark Stonich

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May 5, 2012, 11:33:05 AM5/5/12
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On 5/3/12 4:48 PM, Doug wrote:
A couple of things the other posts on the subject didn't mention. An
FW mech will fit in a pre-1985 AW (three-speed) shell so if you have a
3-speed you want to make into a 5 speed all you need is to do is put
in the FW guts. (And a good half of the FW parts are the same as the
AW). (You do need the old style FW sun gear to get the top gear to
work)
S5 sun gears will also do.  I don't think I have any left but my supplier might.

If you have the short-axle version of the FW without enough threads to
fit a bellcrank
Long FW/S5 axles are still available.  However the short axles have plenty of threads for a bellcrank unless you have modern, thick dropouts.

 you can use the Lauterwasser workaround detailled in
Tony Hadland's "The Sturmey Archer Story"   Some MIT guys converted
their FWs to S5s this way even before the S5s appeared.  Run the left-
hand shifting cable along the chainstay through a guide or two and
then through a hole in a nut or cable knarp attached to the pushrod
and attach the cable straight behind the dropout. Lauterwasser used a
teardrop-shaped brass washer to attach the cable to (picture in
Sturmey Archer Story).  When the cable is tight it pushes in the
pushrod selecting the other sun gear.

There's an example (functional but not elegant)  half way down this
page:
http://www.bicyclehub.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=105
These leave the pushrod vulnerable in case of a fall.  I have Shimano bellcranks bored and re-tapped to fit the SA axle for $13.



There used to be some views of more elegant version on the web of a
1949 Ernie Clements Wrekin Lauterwasser 5-speed conversion....

I converted my '72 Raleigh Sports to a 5 speed this way. It works
quite well without a bellcrank. It's nice to have the wider range of
gears in Seattle...

Here in Mpls. the wider range isn't as important but the closer ratios in the middle 3 gears compared to the AW are quite welcome.
-- 
Mark Stonich;   
  BikeSmith Design & Fabrication 
    5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
       Ph. (612) 824-2372   http://bikesmithdesign.com

Mark Stonich

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May 5, 2012, 11:53:45 AM5/5/12
to gentlema...@googlegroups.com
On 5/5/12 7:28 AM, Graham Wilson wrote:
I know and appreciate we're supposed to "suffer for our art", but wouldn't an easier route just be to put a modern RF5 internal in the hub shell? Heaps more reliable, ten minutes to perform, and spare parts not an issue. Being a single cable, all that's then required is a new shifter. The SLS50T5 isn't entirely ugly on an old bike.

Graham, of the won't suffer for art!
MORE reliable?  Spare parts NOT an issue?  Please explain.  AFAIK they never have sorted out the single cable 5 speeds while the simpler S5 just keeps on ticking.  Good discussion of this on the Geared_Hubs_Bikes list a while back.  Where do you find internal bits for newer ones? In the US? Older parts are still easy to come by, except maybe the sun gears which seem to last forever. 

28 hole S5s, even NOS, show up regularly on Ebay.  A good source of reliable internals. 

Do you know from experience that the new gut will fit an old AW shell?

Graham Wilson

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May 5, 2012, 3:44:49 PM5/5/12
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Hi Mark,

Yes, I ran a new five in an AW shell up until recently, and an AW in the RF5 shell. Only difference is twice as many ratchets in the newer shell, so less 'dead pedal' on the newer ones.

I'm pleased you like the older S5. I hated mine with a vengeance and never seemed to have a good one, but the new one never gave an ounce of trouble, I'm happy to say. But I know plenty of folk hate 'em, some of my friends included. But their troubles all boiled down to maladjustment.

As for spares, I am blessed with having probably the most knowledgeable dealer right on my doorstep :-)



--

MarkSaltLake

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May 5, 2012, 4:09:16 PM5/5/12
to Gentleman Cyclist
I won't argue with experience, authenticity or reliability mentioned
above....but i was "naughty" and did convert an S22 gold Raleigh
sports to a new xrf 5 speed [kept in its original shell not put in an
AW]. ...the plastic shifter was terrible, broke quickly!! but the
newer grip shift i have has been fine --also i have commuted mostly
daily on the bike for 2 years and this hub has so far been problem
free....here in my town the 5 gear range is great, i use all five
daily. ...the converted bike had a sturmey 3 speed twistgrip from the
60s so i justified it by saying i am just switching gripshifts rather
than uglifying the bike.
[of course i have kept all my original parts in case i change my mind
or the xrf5 breaks down]
That said, who knows how long the new hubs [sturmey, shimano or anyone
else] will last, and seems like--as stated in an earlier post-- there
will be no spare parts to be had. My other vintage bikes all have
their original AW's and will stay that way.
Longevity, parts and reliability over decades seem to be virtues of
the AW and S5 as i have learned from the knowledgeable folks on this
site...
...Bear in mind if you do an XRF5 the nicer of the modern shifters--
the above-mentioned SLS50T5--is for the current wide ratio hub which
is what SA 5 speeds are now, and not for Sturmey or any other 225% 5
speed hub. My 5 spd hub is a 225 xrf5 bought just before the newer
wide ratio 5's came out


On May 5, 9:53 am, Mark Stonich <m...@bikesmithdesign.com> wrote:
> On 5/5/12 7:28 AM, Graham Wilson wrote:> I know and appreciate we're supposed to "suffer for our art", but
> > wouldn't an easier route just be to put a modern RF5 internal in the
> > hub shell? Heaps more reliable, ten minutes to perform, and spare
> > parts not an issue. Being a single cable, all that's then required is
> > a new shifter. The SLS50T5 isn't entirely ugly on an old bike.
>
> > Graham, of the won't suffer for art!
>
> MORE reliable?  Spare parts NOT an issue?  Please explain.  AFAIK they
> never have sorted out the single cable 5 speeds while the simpler S5
> just keeps on ticking.  Good discussion of this on the Geared_Hubs_Bikes
> list a while back.  Where do you find internal bits for newer ones? In
> the US? Older parts are still easy to come by, except maybe the sun
> gears which seem to last forever.
>
> 28 hole S5s, even NOS, show up regularly on Ebay.  A good source of
> reliable internals.
>
> Do you know from experience that the new gut will fit an old AW shell?
>
> --
> Mark Stonich;
>    BikeSmith Design&  Fabrication

Luckyrob

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May 5, 2012, 8:08:35 PM5/5/12
to Gentleman Cyclist
A couple of years ago I picked up a NOS 1980 S5 1 and after I built it
into a wheel, read all the bad stuff about the S5 1 and you should
convert it back or forward to a S5 or S5 2. It came with the top tube
double shifter like on the Raleigh Sprite which I had been looking for
without luck. *NB* I can say with all my experience the shifter is
the problem. The left side is fine but the drive side does not work
properly or at least in my experience and from the advise from
others! I put on a friction bar end on the left (thanks Mark Stonich
for the tip) and a S/A bar end on the drive side (careful not to get
the fixie one) I can not be happier with the set up and gear range.
After ABCE I tinkered with the cog size and some non hub issues with
the bike and so far the S5 1 has proven well and we will see on Bay
City Hill. Once you get used to Normal and Hi/Low in 1st and 3rd
shifting is fine with two levers. Cheers Rob

Alan Lloyd

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May 5, 2012, 8:37:39 PM5/5/12
to gentlema...@googlegroups.com
I believe fitting a spring inline on the left-hand, high/low-range, side is a great help too?

Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Sat, 5/5/12, Luckyrob <ral...@shaw.ca> wrote:
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Ian and Mary Lindridge

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May 6, 2012, 9:26:23 AM5/6/12
to gentlema...@googlegroups.com

I bought my first English bicycle in April 2006 for my first 3 speed tour (thank you Noel), a 1967 green Raleigh Sprite 5 speed.  Shifters didn’t work well, 19 tooth sprocket, and poor brakes.  I followed the advice of the experienced and changed out the shifters to the left friction and the usual 3 speed trigger; then a 26 tooth sprocket and salmon brake pads from an old 10 speed.  The bike can climb any hill!  Even stop.  The spring on the hi/low side came later and dramatically smooths the shifting, and I seem to have less slipping out of range.

 

The Sprite has been an excellent ride and now I have an identical ladies bike for my wife to ride.  Mine even won the Gravity Race and Pastry Joust at the ’06 ABCE…something I have attempted to re-live every year since…and failed…L…I occasionally mumble to myself that if I had to keep one bicycle it would be this one…wish it was red or something tho’…

 

Ian Lindridge

 

Riding a bicycle makes me feel younger, getting off makes me feel older, starting off again makes me long for death.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to gentlemancycli...@googlegroups.com.

Paul McLeete

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May 8, 2012, 10:18:01 PM5/8/12
to Gentleman Cyclist
I traded in my chrome fendered Robin Hood for a Raleigh Sprite in
1968. I suffered those top tube shifters. I still enjoy the S5
experience, but only trust the positive action of two three-speed
triggers. It's delightfull converting my biomechanical energy to
forward motion thru those simple, bordering on crude gears. Very
British!

Before this thread fades away I'd like to report that my FG (four
speed Dyno-Hub) conversions to five speeds are doing well. I'll be
doing the Pepin Tour for the third time with one. Loranda, her
second. Last weekend I took apart Peter Martin's with 600 miles on
it. We swaped an S5 low gear pinion for a S52 (more contact area on
dogs), and was able to inspect all. Including the stronger, SS Low
Gear Key I made. Everything inside looked the same as when last
visited.

The Sturmey Archer AG and FG are the only rear hub's ever offered with
a generator to my knowledge. It's even more fun with the added Super
High gear.

Paul
Finland MN

On May 6, 8:26 am, "Ian and Mary Lindridge" <lindr...@infionline.net>
wrote:
> I bought my first English bicycle in April 2006 for my first 3 speed tour
> (thank you Noel), a 1967 green Raleigh Sprite 5 speed.  Shifters didn't work
> well, 19 tooth sprocket, and poor brakes.  I followed the advice of the
> experienced and changed out the shifters to the left friction and the usual
> 3 speed trigger; then a 26 tooth sprocket and salmon brake pads from an old
> 10 speed.  The bike can climb any hill!  Even stop.  The spring on the
> hi/low side came later and dramatically smooths the shifting, and I seem to
> have less slipping out of range.
>
> The Sprite has been an excellent ride and now I have an identical ladies
> bike for my wife to ride.  Mine even won the Gravity Race and Pastry Joust
> at the '06 ABCE.something I have attempted to re-live every year since.and
> failed.L.I occasionally mumble to myself that if I had to keep one bicycle
> it would be this one.wish it was red or something tho'.
>
> Ian Lindridge
>
> Riding a bicycle makes me feel younger, getting off makes me feel older,
> starting off again makes me long for death.
>
> From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:gentlema...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lloyd
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:38 PM
> To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Converting a Sturmey FW 4 speed to an
> S5 5 Speed
>
> I believe fitting a spring inline on the left-hand, high/low-range, side is
> a great help too?
>
> Alan Lloyd
> Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.
>
> --- On Sat, 5/5/12, Luckyrob <ralu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> gentlemancycli...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/gentlemancyclist?hl=en.

Luckyrob

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May 9, 2012, 8:25:41 AM5/9/12
to Gentleman Cyclist
Hi Alan
Can you or someone show me the proper way to install a spring on the
S5 1, someone else might want to know as well. I have been playing
with it without luck and have not found instructions. Thanks!

On May 6, 8:26 am, "Ian and Mary Lindridge" <lindr...@infionline.net>
wrote:
> I bought my first English bicycle in April 2006 for my first 3 speed tour
> (thank you Noel), a 1967 green Raleigh Sprite 5 speed.  Shifters didn't work
> well, 19 tooth sprocket, and poor brakes.  I followed the advice of the
> experienced and changed out the shifters to the left friction and the usual
> 3 speed trigger; then a 26 tooth sprocket and salmon brake pads from an old
> 10 speed.  The bike can climb any hill!  Even stop.  The spring on the
> hi/low side came later and dramatically smooths the shifting, and I seem to
> have less slipping out of range.
>
> The Sprite has been an excellent ride and now I have an identical ladies
> bike for my wife to ride.  Mine even won the Gravity Race and Pastry Joust
> at the '06 ABCE.something I have attempted to re-live every year since.and
> failed.L.I occasionally mumble to myself that if I had to keep one bicycle
> it would be this one.wish it was red or something tho'.
>
> Ian Lindridge
>
> Riding a bicycle makes me feel younger, getting off makes me feel older,
> starting off again makes me long for death.
>
> From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:gentlema...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lloyd
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:38 PM
> To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Converting a Sturmey FW 4 speed to an
> S5 5 Speed
>
> I believe fitting a spring inline on the left-hand, high/low-range, side is
> a great help too?
>
> Alan Lloyd
> Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.
>
> --- On Sat, 5/5/12, Luckyrob <ralu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> From: Luckyrob <ralu...@shaw.ca>
> gentlemancycli...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/gentlemancyclist?hl=en.

Alan Lloyd

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May 9, 2012, 9:42:49 AM5/9/12
to Luckyrob, Gentleman Cyclist, Ian Lindridge
You just put a strongish spring inline between the cable and the bell-crank (S5) or indicator chain (S1 or S2) at the back wheel.

I think this was what Raleigh themselves did on the 2x3=5-speed Choppers, because they had bloody great levers and it was kidz doing the shifting.

Me-thinks Ian Lindridge might actually have a picture of one of his installations?
Or Mark Stonich?


Alan Lloyd
Schaumburg, Illinois, U.S.A.

--- On Wed, 5/9/12, Luckyrob <ral...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> gentlemancyclist+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/gentlemancyclist?hl=en.
>
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Bob Beck

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Apr 29, 2019, 12:31:33 PM4/29/19
to Gentleman Cyclist
Resurrecting an old thread with two questions. Has anyone inserted S5 internals into the modern drum brake alloy hub shell? Where does one get the "modern" sturmey spanner to remove the new internals. the notches have turned to semicircles to prevent the old hammer and punch workaround. Thx

Mark Stonich

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Apr 30, 2019, 6:29:43 PM4/30/19
to Gentleman Cyclist
I have the tool for the new ball cups. It’s an older one and not all that great, but you can use it. Aaron Goss at http://www.rideyourbike.com just got in a shipment of EVERY current Sturmey IGH part. I imagine he has the tool and I suspect the “Made in Taiwan” ones are nicer.

I’ll forward your question the Geared_hub_bikes list.

Mark Stonich
Bikesmith Design and Fabrication LLC
5349 Elliot Ave
Minneapolis MN USA
Ph. +1 (612) 710-9593

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te...@usfamily.net

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May 6, 2019, 9:02:27 AM5/6/19
to gentlema...@googlegroups.com

What part of the world do you live in? I believe I have the wrench you
speak of,
however, I have no clue where I got it from. I?d happily let you use
it, if that
helps.
I might be willing to trade you for the brake I?m looking for. If you
are local,
you can use it for free.


Ted
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