New AWC

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gna

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Jun 14, 2020, 3:53:43 PM6/14/20
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WIll a new SA AWC fit in an old Raleigh?  The OLD is listed at 116mm, so it's close.  My daughter likes coaster brakes.  Her Space Rider had an S3C, and I got a TCW IV for her 19" Dunelt.  But now she's tall enough to Ride a 21" Raleigh, and I thought I would lace up some new wheels for her, using Sun CR-18s.  I'm not really a fan of the TCW, so I thought I would buy a new AWC and lace that up.  Has anyone tried it?

Gary

te...@usfamily.net

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Jun 18, 2020, 4:12:25 PM6/18/20
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I was hoping someone would post who has tried it. Sheldon says it will physically work with manipulation of the drop outs.

That said, my experience with the older SA coaster brake three speeds is they have been reliable, under the women I was around. My Wife, who wouldn’t think of standing to pedal, and rarely goes fast enough to actually need the breaks, did just fine on one. She is 115 pounds, soaking wet. Put it under my son, the opposite kind of rider, and I would expect trouble. A lot of old girls bikes had those hubs, and when I find them in my role as bicycle carrion consumer, the dang things always seem to work, inspite of what everyone tells me.
I commend you for thinking about the total picture, with your kid. The bike my kid is on for the English festivity’s stands out like an F16 in a group of Saber jets, he can stop, it is light, and he has five gears in 27” aluminum rims to use. Some thinking and some luck went into it, and it is what he will ride to these events as long as his welfare is my problem.

John Johnston III

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Jun 18, 2020, 4:30:48 PM6/18/20
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Why would you ever use the rear brake unless you had a front brake failure anyway ?

- John

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te...@usfamily.net

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Jun 18, 2020, 4:47:46 PM6/18/20
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Because it’s there?

Pre ABS days, if you showed up at Keith Codes California Superbike School, you would find the school bikes were mid level 600cc sportbikes, with the back brake disconnected. Doing that to the school bikes prevented a lot of high side get-offs on the track by new riders writing riding checks their skill sets could not cash. BUT, the instructors ALWAYS pointed out for safety on the street to use both brakes.

I always felt it was just good form to do so, bicycle, or motorcycle.

John Johnston III

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Jun 18, 2020, 6:18:10 PM6/18/20
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Sounds like lawyer protection speak to me.

Also consider the weight transfer difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle.

- John

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Gary Aslakson

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Jun 18, 2020, 6:59:14 PM6/18/20
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Paulos, Richard G

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Jun 18, 2020, 7:00:24 PM6/18/20
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Try using your front brake only on snow, sand, ice, going around any corner, in the rain, on wet painted lines, etc. A rear brake is always far safer to use but is often inadequate due to weight transfer so they added a front brake for straight line emergency stops on dry pavement.

When your front wheel slides out, your teeth meet the pavement far quicker than any human can react. You typically wake up in a hospital room 3 days later wondering how you got there. When you back wheel slides out, you get a bruise on your rear and feel stupid but you remember.

I've used most versions of the vintage Sturmey Archer's 3 speed with coaster brake hubs. None are great. One put me in an emergency room. Another left me carrying the bike when the brake overheated and seized up the hub. The best reason for them is fewer cables on the bike.

rick


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From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Johnston III <jjohns...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 3:30 PM
To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [External] Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] New AWC

Why would you ever use the rear brake unless you had a front brake failure anyway ?

- John

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 3:12 PM te...@usfamily.net<mailto:te...@usfamily.net> <te...@usfamily.net<mailto:te...@usfamily.net>> wrote:
I was hoping someone would post who has tried it. Sheldon says it will physically work with manipulation of the drop outs.

That said, my experience with the older SA coaster brake three speeds is they have been reliable, under the women I was around. My Wife, who wouldn’t think of standing to pedal, and rarely goes fast enough to actually need the breaks, did just fine on one. She is 115 pounds, soaking wet. Put it under my son, the opposite kind of rider, and I would expect trouble. A lot of old girls bikes had those hubs, and when I find them in my role as bicycle carrion consumer, the dang things always seem to work, inspite of what everyone tells me.
I commend you for thinking about the total picture, with your kid. The bike my kid is on for the English festivity’s stands out like an F16 in a group of Saber jets, he can stop, it is light, and he has five gears in 27” aluminum rims to use. Some thinking and some luck went into it, and it is what he will ride to these events as long as his welfare is my problem.

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Gary Aslakson

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Jun 18, 2020, 7:31:51 PM6/18/20
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I was hoping someone would post who had tried it, too. 

Having a brake that works in the rain appeals to me. My experience with the old SA coaster 3s is they work ok as long as everything (cable, lever) is in adjustment.  But if you've ever rebuilt a TCW the brake band isn't all that big, so the stopping power is somewhat limited.  Though my daughter isn't all that big, if I'm going to go to the trouble of lacing up new wheels I thought I would try to get a better hub.  

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Shawn Granton

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Jun 18, 2020, 7:32:28 PM6/18/20
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While I do primarily stop my bike with the front brake, I use my rear brake plenty enough. Even though I've modernized my three speeds with modern caliper brakes and alloy rims, I still need that extra stopping power when wet. I can't imagine only having a front caliper brake on a bike with steel rims, especially if it's wet out. 
-Shawn

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John Johnston III

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Jun 18, 2020, 8:13:22 PM6/18/20
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It seems reasonably clear that one should be prepared to brake most effectively in an emergency.

In that situation, which brake to use, is going to be a subconscious reaction by definition.

And one's reaction is going to be to use the brake that is most familiar.

So the front brake is going to be the one to use under normal conditions.

Under abnormal conditions, one should be traveling with heightened awareness.

The choice of which brake to use abnormal conditions becomes a conscious choice.

- John

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Iron Horse

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Jun 18, 2020, 8:44:52 PM6/18/20
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Hi John and all.
I think I may have finally figured out how to do this from a cell phone. Here's to hoping...
I believe you are correct, save for one thing. I believe you are drawing your conclusions from being familiar with your bike. One bike. I will offer another perspective. I have many bikes. Some have hand brakes, some coaster brakes and some that have both. Some even have no brakes at all (replica Hi-wheel and two 1890's direct drive safety bikes). Because of my varied inventory, I have to always be conscious of what I am riding. You cannot have a panic stop on a 48" wheeled bike. Braking is almost instinctual if you ride the same bike every day. If I ride my coaster braked 3 speed for a week, and I suddenly decide to ride the dl-1, imagine my suprise when I stomp on the pedal only to have the crank spin around and clock me on the shin. Or grabbing the handlbars and having nothing happening when I switch to my Columbia. It has happened! I submit that braking will always have to be conscientious for those who own more than one style of bike.
As for braking styles, I tend to brake with the rear leading and adding the front as more braking is necessary, and when stopping quickly, both brakes are applied simultaneously. The only thing I did differently with one of my wifes Raleighs, was to add another hand brake to the rear on her bike which came stock with front caliper and rear coaster brakes, just for peace of mind.
Eric
9k8

John Johnston III

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Jun 18, 2020, 9:37:26 PM6/18/20
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Hi Eric -

I switch all my bicycles to front brake on the right side. That reduces the chances of grabbing a handful of clutch when on a motorcycle.

And the standardization of basic motorcycle control locations suggests that there is a benefit to the familiar.

Also many years ago in motorcycle school, it was drilled into us that we should cover the front brake. This decreases time-to-brake application.

Covering the brake also serves as a reminder that there is a brake lever there.

Do what one can to maximize the chance of a more positive outcome during a subconscious emergency braking situation.

- John

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te...@usfamily.net

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Jun 19, 2020, 12:08:33 AM6/19/20
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At the time, it sounded like excellent street motorcycle riding advice, to me.

I still practice it, motorcycle, bicycle, and, autonomously, through a proportioning valve, in my cars.

Ted

Paulos, Richard G

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Jun 19, 2020, 12:31:41 AM6/19/20
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I used to own a 1950s Schwinn Flying Star equipped with a Bendix manual shift 2 speed hub with coaster brake. This was the precursor to the Automatic (kickback). The shift lever was about the same size and shape as a regular brake lever and mounted where a brake lever would be. On many occasions I squeezed the lever when approaching a stop sign only to shift gears and not slow down. I was quite happy to sell that bike. Heavy, slow and a bit of a risk. If were my only bike then I'd get used to it but I have many others. I rarely have issues with brakes but I find myself reaching for shift levers in the wrong places. Bar end, down tube, stem mounted, thumb shifters, twist shift, built into the brake lever, both shimano STI and Campy Ergo. The one exception is the trigger on 3 speed bikes. For unknown reasons, I don't reach to the wrong place on any 3 speed. I have an IGH 7 speed that works backwards so I find myself shifting the opposite way every time. But you can get in to trouble on a motorcycle far faster with more serious consequences so not having to think about which control to use an emergency is quite important.

As a child I had to take bicycle safety class to get my AAA reflective sticker for my bicycle. We were required to skid to pass the test! I was so light and weak I couldn't do that. The auto industry has spent untold billions trying to keep cars from skidding. I recall Mercedes was first to market, then GM came up with a far cheaper implementation. I once read through all the city ordinances in Iowa and many had identically worded code requiring bicycles with brakes capable of skidding both wheels. This was a result of some canned law subscription service for cities intended to ban fixies. IMO, it's impossible to skid a front wheel on a normal bicycle on dry pavement. I'd really like to see those city council persons demonstrate it.

I volunteer at the local bike coop. I see many riding with no brakes at all. Kids on bmx bikes, the homeless riding junky bikes and the gas motor kit on a bicycle guys who removed the brakes because they were in the way.

Rick

________________________________________

Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 8:37 PM
To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] New AWC

Hi Eric -

I switch all my bicycles to front brake on the right side. That reduces the chances of grabbing a handful of clutch when on a motorcycle.

And the standardization of basic motorcycle control locations suggests that there is a benefit to the familiar.

Also many years ago in motorcycle school, it was drilled into us that we should cover the front brake. This decreases time-to-brake application.

Covering the brake also serves as a reminder that there is a brake lever there.

Do what one can to maximize the chance of a more positive outcome during a subconscious emergency braking situation.

- John

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 7:44 PM Iron Horse <ironhors...@gmail.com<mailto:ironhors...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi John and all.
I think I may have finally figured out how to do this from a cell phone. Here's to hoping...
I believe you are correct, save for one thing. I believe you are drawing your conclusions from being familiar with your bike. One bike. I will offer another perspective. I have many bikes. Some have hand brakes, some coaster brakes and some that have both. Some even have no brakes at all (replica Hi-wheel and two 1890's direct drive safety bikes). Because of my varied inventory, I have to always be conscious of what I am riding. You cannot have a panic stop on a 48" wheeled bike. Braking is almost instinctual if you ride the same bike every day. If I ride my coaster braked 3 speed for a week, and I suddenly decide to ride the dl-1, imagine my suprise when I stomp on the pedal only to have the crank spin around and clock me on the shin. Or grabbing the handlbars and having nothing happening when I switch to my Columbia. It has happened! I submit that braking will always have to be conscientious for those who own more than one style of bike.
As for braking styles, I tend to brake with the rear leading and adding the front as more braking is necessary, and when stopping quickly, both brakes are applied simultaneously. The only thing I did differently with one of my wifes Raleighs, was to add another hand brake to the rear on her bike which came stock with front caliper and rear coaster brakes, just for peace of mind.
Eric
9k8

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Kit Spackman

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Jun 19, 2020, 3:38:31 AM6/19/20
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Gentlemen,

As well as my various Moultons, all of which have rim brakes, I have a 1934 Mcleans tandem that I bought in 1964 or so. I rebuilt it in the 60s, but kept its Sturmey K3 hub, which incorporates a hefty hub brake operated by a foot pedal behind the lead rider's left heel. Since the rebuild it has Mafac Trandem Criterium cantilever rim brakes on both front and rear wheels, which are operated via Mafac's tricky twin cable right hand lever. This means that BOTH rim brakes come on together, and if I use them and the foot pedal the rear wheel locks up with no problems, even with a hefty stoker on the rear! 🙂

Riding the Moultons I always heave on the front brake slightly before bringing in the rear brake, if I'm not in an emergency situation of course, but with the tandem I try and use the hub brake first and then go for the Mafacs.

The two types of bike are RADICALLY different of course, but it makes the point that you need to adapt the braking method depending on the characteristics of the bike.

Regards
Kit


Sent: 19 June 2020 00:13
To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] New AWC
 
It seems reasonably clear that one should be prepared to brake most effectively in an emergency.

In that situation, which brake to use, is going to be a subconscious reaction by definition.

And one's reaction is going to be to use the brake that is most familiar.

So the front brake is going to be the one to use under normal conditions.

Under abnormal conditions, one should be traveling with heightened awareness.

The choice of which brake to use abnormal conditions becomes a conscious choice.

- John


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Luckyrob

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Jun 19, 2020, 12:33:10 PM6/19/20
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IMG_9001.jpg

Building a bike now with modern S/A coaster brake hub no front brake.  I used the back wheel on a commuter year round in Winnipeg and it was fine. In the winter used a front brake as said coasters on poor roads will put you on the ground but on ice I was usually going slow anyway.  They freeze up at -30 C (-22 F) and are useless.  The coasters are fun to make skids I have been doing it for almost 50 years now and won't grow up.  Tires are cheap anyway compared to the fun factor.  Attached a picture of new front end to show why no front brake. :) 

GEORGE albaugh

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Jun 19, 2020, 1:04:11 PM6/19/20
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Interesting front fork.  What brand/age of cycle is this?

George in Maryland
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Luckyrob

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Jun 19, 2020, 1:34:29 PM6/19/20
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1936.jpg

It is a 1936 CCM Flyte the first year of the 1936-1940 production.  In Canada it is the Holly Grail for us, $47 in 1936. They patent the design and built the bike out of "Aircraft steel" as the story goes. It is really light though.  Hoping to have it painted (if ever I decide on color) for ABCE this fall if it is safe to cross USA border. Rob


On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:04:11 PM UTC-5, GEORGE albaugh wrote:
Interesting front fork.  What brand/age of cycle is this?

George in Maryland
On June 19, 2020 at 12:33 PM Luckyrob <ral...@shaw.ca> wrote:

IMG_9001.jpg

Building a bike now with modern S/A coaster brake hub no front brake.  I used the back wheel on a commuter year round in Winnipeg and it was fine. In the winter used a front brake as said coasters on poor roads will put you on the ground but on ice I was usually going slow anyway.  They freeze up at -30 C (-22 F) and are useless.  The coasters are fun to make skids I have been doing it for almost 50 years now and won't grow up.  Tires are cheap anyway compared to the fun factor.  Attached a picture of new front end to show why no front brake. :) 

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-5, gna wrote:
WIll a new SA AWC fit in an old Raleigh?  The OLD is listed at 116mm, so it's close.  My daughter likes coaster brakes.  Her Space Rider had an S3C, and I got a TCW IV for her 19" Dunelt.  But now she's tall enough to Ride a 21" Raleigh, and I thought I would lace up some new wheels for her, using Sun CR-18s.  I'm not really a fan of the TCW, so I thought I would buy a new AWC and lace that up.  Has anyone tried it?

Gary

 

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Kit Spackman

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Jun 19, 2020, 1:56:22 PM6/19/20
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That looks very clever, was it an attempt at springing all that time ago?

It looks like an extreme version of the Hetchins Curly Stays, which were patented in 1934, around the same time frame as your bike.

Regards
Kit


From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Luckyrob <ral...@shaw.ca>
Sent: 19 June 2020 17:34
To: Gentleman Cyclist <gentlema...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: New AWC
 
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Luckyrob

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Jun 19, 2020, 2:45:20 PM6/19/20
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Yes a suspension thing.  I just got the forks not long ago and have not ridden it yet but they are suppose to ride very smoothly.

Paulos, Richard G

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Jun 19, 2020, 3:06:30 PM6/19/20
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You may find it rather hard to get a Flyte back in to Canada. There are some pretty fat check books here that may temp you.

rick


________________________________________

Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 12:34 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: [External] Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: New AWC

[1936.jpg]

It is a 1936 CCM Flyte the first year of the 1936-1940 production. In Canada it is the Holly Grail for us, $47 in 1936. They patent the design and built the bike out of "Aircraft steel" as the story goes. It is really light though. Hoping to have it painted (if ever I decide on color) for ABCE this fall if it is safe to cross USA border. Rob

On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:04:11 PM UTC-5, GEORGE albaugh wrote:
Interesting front fork. What brand/age of cycle is this?

George in Maryland
On June 19, 2020 at 12:33 PM Luckyrob <ral...@shaw.ca<javascript:>> wrote:


[IMG_9001.jpg]

Building a bike now with modern S/A coaster brake hub no front brake. I used the back wheel on a commuter year round in Winnipeg and it was fine. In the winter used a front brake as said coasters on poor roads will put you on the ground but on ice I was usually going slow anyway. They freeze up at -30 C (-22 F) and are useless. The coasters are fun to make skids I have been doing it for almost 50 years now and won't grow up. Tires are cheap anyway compared to the fun factor. Attached a picture of new front end to show why no front brake. :)

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-5, gna wrote:
WIll a new SA AWC fit in an old Raleigh? The OLD is listed at 116mm, so it's close. My daughter likes coaster brakes. Her Space Rider had an S3C, and I got a TCW IV for her 19" Dunelt. But now she's tall enough to Ride a 21" Raleigh, and I thought I would lace up some new wheels for her, using Sun CR-18s. I'm not really a fan of the TCW, so I thought I would buy a new AWC and lace that up. Has anyone tried it?

Gary

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Luckyrob

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Jun 19, 2020, 6:38:06 PM6/19/20
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Mine is getting skinny after this project. :) 

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gna

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Jun 25, 2020, 1:58:02 PM6/25/20
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As an update, the AWC or AWC ii is no longer current--the 3SP coaster is now the S-RC3. 

At any rate, I found a NOS AWC from 1988 (made in England) for about $70, or I could spend $20 more and get what's listed as a new AWC hub.  I've been told the quality near the end there is suspect, though the '80s hubs I've worked on have seemed fine.  Advice?

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 2:53:43 PM UTC-5, gna wrote:

Paulos, Richard G

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Jun 25, 2020, 3:35:04 PM6/25/20
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Advice? make sure the spoke hole count matches the rim. 36vs36 or 40vs40.

As to later quality. By 1980 the importing of SA hubs to the USA had come to a screaming halt. Raleigh licensed their name to Huffy and the Huffy/Raleigh USA stopped importing real Raleighs and made their own or imported them from Asia. The bike boom was over and mountain bikes were taking over. There just weren't SA hub equipped bikes on the market here so there is very limited experience with that era.

I did repair a 1980 AW hub on an English made Raleigh Sports a couple years ago and I was disappointed to find the clutch was made of stamped sheet metal instead of cast and machined like they were forever. The edges were uneven and rounded off (not by wear). The shifting certainly suffered from that. My guess is they outsourced the production of that part.

I have a 1974 S3C that locked up on me. The circlip that holds the brake assembly in place dislodged. It was a very feeble clip. At the time I looked up the diagrams and found SA subbed a cheaper part. It was back to normal the following year. I replaced the clip with a sturdier version and it's been fine since.

My point on those two hubs is that SA made minor and often undocumented changes to save a buck and some didn't work out. Trying to pinpoint exact years to avoid would be nearly impossible. Raleigh was known to be a penny pinching company and wouldn't spend the money to improve products. SA suffered from that. The NIB was a prime case. They had a fix but wouldn't fix it. Columbia paid extra for a no-nib hub. Sun Race fixed it for good.

Although the latest version, the S-RC3 is not made in England, it's probably the best of the 3 speed with coaster brake hubs. The earlier hubs can work but each has issues. The TCW was famous for losing it's brakes completely if the cable wasn't adjusted right or the operator mis-shifted (nib problem). The S3C had the braking effort going through the gears so the braking power depended on which gear you were in at the time.

in age order:
TCW
TCW II
TCW III
TCW IV
S3C
AWC
AWC II
S-RC3 (Sun Race Sturmey Archer version with alloy shell)

rick

________________________________________
From: gentlema...@googlegroups.com <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of gna <gnar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:58 PM
To: Gentleman Cyclist
Subject: [External] [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: New AWC

Gary

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te...@usfamily.net

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Jun 25, 2020, 11:05:21 PM6/25/20
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In the “for what it is worth” column, I have a Shimano Nexus 3 speed with coaster brake hub laced into an alloy 26” mountain bike wheel, that I use on my dog exercising bicycle, a 1972 Schwinn Heavy-Duti newspaper boys bicycle. It is used every day the road isn’t slippery, and has been fed a fair amount of hard use.
It works perfectly. Always has.
When running a Setter who pulls pretty hard on the leash, I discovered a coaster brake is really best. Yes, I discovered this the hard way. This particular dog thinks nothing of pulling the bike and myself 2-3 hard miles, in what can only be described as insane, minimally controlled, glee. The load is a solid 275 lbs of white knuckled dog owner, and bike. My guess is the stops that happen suddenly are a bit of abuse to the hub, but, it and the odd shifter have been flawless.

Ted

gna

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Sep 5, 2020, 11:30:53 AM9/5/20
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As an update, I purchased a Newish AWC (II) from eBay, and a generic dynohub that fits with some persuading of the fork.  I was able to get spokes from MMRB.  I ordered the only Sun Ringle CR-18s 590 36H I could find in stock, but they never shipped--it appears they are out of stock everywhere.  Anyone have a lead on CR-18s?  

Ian Lindridge

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Sep 5, 2020, 1:34:21 PM9/5/20
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Dog/bike racing, a new event at the ABCE........
Ian of doesn't have a dog and my 2 cats would only be a photo op on the end of a leash.......

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te...@usfamily.net

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Sep 7, 2020, 10:13:24 AM9/7/20
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It is hazardous enough when I do the dog run by myself in the evening. Some dogs think pulling an old dude on a bike is Nirvana. It kinda’ is, until something goes wrong. Did I ever tell you about the time the chain came off, mid ride, and there were no brakes?
Dog will be at home for the ABCE, safer for all involved.
Ted

gna

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Apr 27, 2022, 12:47:42 PMApr 27
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Update:  I eventually found some Sun CR-18s, and laced up the hubs.  I mounted the wheels in the bike.  It seemed to fit fine.  Seems to work ok with the old shifter and cable, but I needed a couple of washer just to get the right side axle nut far enough from the end of the axle to see the indicator.
IMG_5524.JPG67243376668__F9A9DA4D-40F3-475A-9DCB-FA4C739E8293.JPG

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